When your build comes online at level 10, but you start at level 1...

[RoboEmperor]

What do you do? Do you just spend 20 weeks playing some worthless baggage and rushing the DM to get you to level 10, or do you take a mundane dip just for the low levels?

Retraining and character swapping not allowed because the DM is... well... I don't want to be mean :) (this is a different DM than my other thread)

edit: Game is level 1-20+, theoretically anyways...

[Eldariel]

Well, I usually simply don't play builds that come online at level 10 when starting at level 1 for obvious reasons. I basically never play Theurges for the very reason, though I do run the occasional gish that plays out as a Wizard with slightly higher physicals until taking Gish-levels. Most builds have some kind of a lead-in so use that; play to your strengths and pick a build that isn't completely helpless for the first levels. Note, the first two levels basically anyone with good physicals is a warrior and anyone with a Longbow is a ranged damage dealer, and anyone who can afford Alchemist's Fires can do just fine at close ranges. It's after that where class levels begin to become more relevant. Around 3-9 you should have some kind of a plan of what your character does.

Thankfully caster classes like Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids can absolutely shine at low levels so as long as you have even 1-2 levels in any such class, you should be fine for the first 5-6 levels.

[Deophaun]

Play something else. A build has to be fun for the time that you're playing. If you're suffering through half of the possible gameplay (and, let's be honest, the first ten levels will likely be the majority of your game), then you're doing it wrong.

Put your character away and break it out at a game where you start at a higher level.

[BowStreetRunner]

It really depends on how long you expect your game to last overall.

If this game is likely to go from level 1-20, then having the build come online at level 10 may work, but you are going to have to sacrifice a lot the first 9 levels. That can be an interesting role-playing experience, but isn't for everyone.

If this game is likely to go from level 1-10, then having the build come online at level 10 is pretty much a waste. Play something else.

Design your character for the game you are playing.

[RoboEmperor]

Game is theoretically 1-20+. Most games I've experienced end before this happens.

So you guys are saying that I should:

1. Get a monk dip on my sorcerer. I go online at level 11, but at least I can melee stuff with ascetic mage or whatnot with high AC.

Or

2. Create a build that comes online much sooner. I hate this option because there's only 1 style of play I enjoy in this game...

[Eldariel]

So you guys are saying that I should:

1. Get a monk dip on my sorcerer. I go online at level 11, but at least I can melee stuff with ascetic mage or whatnot with high AC.

Or

2. Create a build that comes online much sooner. I hate this option because there's only 1 style of play I enjoy in this game...

Monk-dip is pretty much the opposite of what you should do. That's just going to make you even worse on low levels and take even longer to get to your good stuff as you fall behind in spellcasting. If you're a Sorcerer, what's the problem? Get the usual Color Spray/Grease/Enlarge Person/etc. and then add Glitterdust/Web/etc. and call it a day. As a spellcaster, contributing on all levels is just about the easiest thing in the world. If you wanna reselect spells or whatever, just get a scroll of Limited Wish and use it to cast Psychic Reformation on yourself and do it instantaneously, albeit at a cost.

[RoboEmperor]

If you wanna reselect spells or whatever, just get a scroll of Limited Wish and use it to cast Psychic Reformation on yourself and do it instantaneously, albeit at a cost.

Yeah... DM doesn't allow that XD.

Thinking long-term, most of my lower level spells are defensive, like alter self and wings of cover. Planar Sorcerer substitution level also gets rid of a level 2 spell...

I can just spam color spray, silent image, and haste/fireball/other level 3, but its a bit boring/underwhelming imo, especially levels 4-5.

My line of thinking was: Alter Self + Dex Bonus + Cha Bonus = Sky-high AC, so might as well melee stuff. I'm also getting polymorph at level 8. Might skip ascetic mage though, I get it at level 6, which means I can't dump WIS early levels if I'm gonna monk...

[Eldariel]

Yeah... DM doesn't allow that XD.

Thinking long-term, most of my lower level spells are defensive, like alter self and wings of cover. Planar Sorcerer substitution level also gets rid of a level 2 spell...

I can just spam color spray, silent image, and haste/fireball/other level 3, but its a bit boring/underwhelming imo, especially levels 4-5.

My line of thinking was: Alter Self + Dex Bonus + Cha Bonus = Sky-high AC, so might as well melee stuff. I'm also getting polymorph at level 8. Might skip ascetic mage though, I get it at level 6, which means I can't dump WIS early levels if I'm gonna monk...

Well, play a mage until your build gets online, then switch to said build. Not knowing what the build is, I can't give you more detailed advice but that's generally safe. You don't really need that much AC if you're sitting safely in the backlines stunning anything that looks at you the wrong way anyways.

[The Insanity]

Play something that works, then at 10th suicide die heroicly and switch to your other build.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I'd just play something else. There are enough builds that are good at level 1 that there's really no need to play one of the ones that won't come online until level 10.

[Telok]

Generally this is caused by two issues in 3.5 D&D,

1) The game at level 1 is very different from the game at level 10 which is very different from the game at level 20. At level 1 a human fighter is just fine for picking up Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip and using a glaive or something. At level 10 said fighter could be really good with that glaive but that's competing with Teleport, Magic Jar, Raise Dead, Righteous Might, and Twinned Buffed Polar Bears Casting Spells (Druid). Level 20 is... well... Wish/Miracle versus Weapon Supremacy.

2) Prerequsites. Feat chains, BaB requirements, skill requirements, PrC requirements, all use up character resources before they give thier benefit. This is why Whirlwind is so sucky, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack all vary from near useless to extremely situational and if your class lacks bonus feats you're 9th level. This both forces a level planned build just to get a single trick or ability and kicks the character in the nuts at levels before that trick comes online.

Generally there are three ways around this when you're going from low to high levels,

1) Reworking the character. Retraining, psychic reformation, limited wish, et al let you have good, useful feat and skill while leveling up and then sort of resetting the character to get the ability you actually wanted without suffering many levels uf suckage before that. I regret that the OP's DM isn't open to this option.

2) A new character. Play something nice and fun for the low levels and then retire or kill that character and bring in the character that you wanted to play. What I'm going to encourage in my next game is that people take Leadership and have thier cohort be the character that they want to play later. Then when the current character is obsolete they retire it and bring in the cohort as thier character, leveling it up to on par with the rest of the party.

3) Play a class/build that's good at all levels. So, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, psion, warblade, crusader, etc. etc. You know the drill.

[Mehangel]

One of the reasons why I am a huge fan of Spheres of Power is that almost any character concept that I want to play is available starting at level 1 (especially with the right casting tradition).

[eggynack]

I'm really not sure how sorcerers can be said to take until level ten to come online. Arguably, they come online at level one, because first level sorcerer spells are nice, and they start really evening up with lower tier classes pretty quickly. If you really have a problem with low level sorcerers, maybe just run some tier one. Wizards are somewhat better early if you optimize, because you can actually hit a sorcerer's spells/day numbers through domain wizard and elven generalist, and increase versatility and access to higher level spells through basic wizard stuff. Or, alternatively, you can use focused specialist to do the first thing and take abrupt jaunt on top of that. And clerics and druids are clearly better through the power of having great magic and a great chassis/class features. Without knowing your plan, I can't say how well these classes can do at your plan, but there's a decent chance they'd do well.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm really not sure how sorcerers can be said to take until level ten to come online.

1. The thing I want to do require a combination of spells from levels 1-5
2. Limited spell selection + Useless spells unless combo'd with higher level spells = useless sorcerer.

These problems can be solved by rolling a wizard, but I want to play a sorcerer!

[BowStreetRunner]

1. The thing I want to do require a combination of spells from levels 1-5
2. Limited spell selection + Useless spells unless combo'd with higher level spells = useless sorcerer.

These problems can be solved by rolling a wizard, but I want to play a sorcerer!

Don't forget that "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows."

[Eldariel]

1. The thing I want to do require a combination of spells from levels 1-5
2. Limited spell selection + Useless spells unless combo'd with higher level spells = useless sorcerer.

These problems can be solved by rolling a wizard, but I want to play a sorcerer!

Meh. Pick few combat spells and mostly the buffs you want and use the 4/6/8/etc. swaps to make it work.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[bean illus]

Play something that works, then at 10th suicide die heroicly and switch to your other build.
And pretend you didn't plan it.

[eggynack]

What is this combination, anyway? Even leaving aside that spell changing thing, you do get early level spells deeper into the game, so you can take them then. I feel a bit hamstrung by not knowing the specifics, though there is an interesting game to shooting lasers into the black box that is this build and using the behavior of those game-lasers to figure out the build's characteristics.

[Troacctid]

I assume it's Planar Binding stuff again.

I mean, if you want to retrain more spells, you could just take Apprentice (Spellcaster).

[eggynack]

I assume it's Planar Binding stuff again.
Might be wrong, but aren't the things you want for planar binding not first level spells?

[Bonzai]

Well, I played a Truenamer from lvl 1 to Lvl 15, and still managed to carry my own weight. A slightly more useful character was a Shadowcaster/assassin/teflamar shadow lord shadow Pouncer build. That particular character had lost both hands and a leg, but still was a passible Gish until his shadow pounce came online. Probably the worst was a straight Soulborn, but he still managed to contribute.

Main thing is to find ways to be useful. For example, my True Namer started to run into bunches of golems that he couldn't effect, he focused on buffing the team and bought a Harrow Rod to be able to deal ok damage to them when needed. I've seen some one spend 500 gp in an alchemist shop and make major impacts with smoke bongs, tanglefoots etc..

Be proactively helpful and the party shouldn't mind you being a bit under powered for a time. It's the characters that sit on their hands all combat that tend to get the dirty looks from the players.

[Name1]

Play something that works, then at 10th suicide die heroicly and switch to your other build.

Yeah, I agree with that. You don't even have to suicide, your character can just retire normally on grounds of an alignment change etc.

[Deophaun]

I've seen some one spend 500 gp in an alchemist shop and make major impacts with smoke bongs...

DM: And the pit fiend mellows out, grabs a bag of Doritos, and conjures up a Kevin Smith film.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What do you do? Do you just spend 20 weeks playing some worthless baggage and rushing the DM to get you to level 10, or do you take a mundane dip just for the low levels?

Retraining and character swapping not allowed because the DM is... well... I don't want to be mean :) (this is a different DM than my other thread)

edit: Game is level 1-20+, theoretically anyways...

What do I do? I adjust the build. You make what sacrifices you can at the early levels of the build that won't prevent you from "coming online" and make the best of it.

I've read the thread a bit and see that you're going with a sorcerer based build. Why would a melee dip be desireable? Sorcerer functions just fine on its own. Pick good spells and use the classs-born ability to swap out spells at 4 and every even level as needed to get planar binding up to snuff.

[RoboEmperor]

I assume it's Planar Binding stuff again.

I'm touched, you didn't forget about me after all these months.

It partially is. It's like cancer medicine. There is a unique blend of pain medication that works perfectly for each unique individual, and in my case, there is a unique blend of spells that allows planar binding to work for each unique DM.

To be more specific, it's a planar substitution/mindbender/shadowcraft mage sorcerer with a focus on planar binding so yeah, I got my plate full with all the feats, cross-class skills and spell prerequisites.

Even with early entry, you don't get the defining ability of shadowcraft mage until level 9 (unless you go with incredibly lenient rule reading with precocious apprentice stuff and a lenient DM), so yeah. Boring game until level 9. I don't mind coming online 1 or 2 levels later if it means having more fun earlier.

But yeah, I guess monk dip is a terrible idea, and I should just change out a heroically sacrificed PC at level 9. Still though, I do like sticking with one character from beginning to end so I am open to ideas.


I've read the thread a bit and see that you're going with a sorcerer based build. Why would a melee dip be desireable? Sorcerer functions just fine on its own. Pick good spells and use the classs-born ability to swap out spells at 4 and every even level as needed to get planar binding up to snuff.

I guess it depends on everyone's definition of fun. I like contributing more than just blinding a group, sitting down, and reading a book while everyone else fights. At least with a summoner build I coordinated flanks and used abilities, but a standard BFC is not my cup of tea.

You can swap out only 3 spells before you hit level 10, and I just realized I didnt choose a spell to swap out at level 10! How embarassing. Ok this might work... let me re-plan.

I have this thing about self-sufficiency (one of the main reasons I am a sorcerer), and a BFC is not self-sufficient due to 0 killing power. Another reason that a pure BFC bothers me.

@eggynack
I have 3 spells I can swap out. Which would you recommend? I got colorspray at 1 and swapping at 6, magic missile at 3 and swapping at 8 (dunno why I chose magic missile o_O.) and I havent chosen the one I'd get rid of at 10. I'm guessing glitterdust and... summon monster III?

Anyways I didn't mention my build earlier because I wanted generic answers not specific to my build.

[The Insanity]

Yeah, I agree with that. You don't even have to suicide, your character can just retire normally on grounds of an alignment change etc.
DM doesn't allow swaping of characters. No way out other than the coward's way, I'm afraid.

[Name1]

DM doesn't allow swaping of characters. No way out other than the coward's way, I'm afraid.

Oh... wait, let me fix that then^^


Yeah, I agree with that. You don't even have to kill yourself, your character can just suicide by Paladin on grounds of an alignment change etc.

[eggynack]

I have 3 spells I can swap out. Which would you recommend? I got colorspray at 1 and swapping at 6, magic missile at 3 and swapping at 8 (dunno why I chose magic missile o_O.) and I havent chosen the one I'd get rid of at 10. I'm guessing glitterdust and... summon monster III?
SM III definitely goes down in value as you level. Glitterdust less so. So, probably the former. Though, actually, looking at the summoner's desk reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5), it looks like SM III offers a lot of really solid SLA's. For example, a dretch substitutes in pretty well for stinking cloud, and a bacche can substitute for charm person and hideous laughter, and so on. Add all those SLA's together, and you might get enough value to make keeping that worth it, and you'll make up for the spells you're otherwise missing out on to some extent. So, thinking further, maybe ditch glitterdust if you have some book access to really work the summons.


Anyways I didn't mention my build earlier because I wanted generic answers not specific to my build.
But that doesn't make all that much sense. There are only a few answers to your question here, aside from stuff like character suicide. You can design the character in a more optimal manner, such that it works even before level ten, or you can ditch the character, because it's unworkable, or you can keep playing it, despite the crappitude. The latter is your personal decision, but the first two depend somewhat on what the character is, what resources it can make use of, and what limits surround it. There aren't many generic answers about this, because optimization is very situationally dependent.

[Vizzerdrix]

This is why Ive always supported early entry shenanagins. With the amount of games that end in the 8 to 14 range, waiting to play what you want can often mean never playing what you want.