Spell "Research" abuse?

[magicalmagicman]

Magic Missile, level 1 spell, 1d4+1 damage, upto 5 missiles at CL 9.

Maximized Magic Missile, level 4 spell, 5 damage, upto 5 missiles at CL 9.

Researching a level 4 spell called Super Magic Missile, which is identical to a Maximized Magic Missile, is reasonable right?

Now what if you use metamagic reducers to have a +0 maximized magic missile? Then couldn't you research a level 1 spell called Super Magic Missile, claiming that only your character can create such a spell because he is a magic missile and metamagic specialist. (You have arcane thesis: Magic Missile).

Then what if he adds Twin to that? Twinned Super Magic Missile, with metamagic reducers, is reduced to a level 1 spell, and he researches that as a new spell called Mega Magic Missile.

Then what if he adds Twin to that? Twinned Mega Magic Missile, with metamagic reducers, is reducted to a level 1 spell, and he researches that as a new spell called Ultra Magic Missile.

Then what if he adds Twin to that?

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."

[Inevitability]

Is there an official source for the last line of your post, or is it a houserule?

Anyway, there's a bit of an ambiguous rule in the 'a normal spell with metamagics' line. It could be interpreted as having the spell keep the metamagic, so an independently researched Twinned Magic Missile is still considered 'twinned' and can therefore not be enhanced with another Twinned. This is some pretty shaky RAW, but your DM may choose to enforce it (and he's well within his rights to do so).

Also note that you need to research and learn every spell to prepare the next phase.

[Beheld]

Why on earth would Super Magic Missile at level 1 be reasonable if Super Magic Missile was reasonable at level 4?

If someone wants to spend WBL to effectively buy a metamagic feat for one spell, that's fine, it's probably underpowered.

But inherent in that is that you can buy the spell at the higher level, not the spell at the same level because "Magic Missile Maximized" is a spell with metamagic, but "Magic Missile Maximized with Arcane Thesis and a bunch of other +0s" is a different thing entirely.

[Troacctid]

Magic Missile, level 1 spell, 1d4+1 damage, upto 5 missiles at CL 9.

Maximized Magic Missile, level 4 spell, 5 damage, upto 5 missiles at CL 9.

Researching a level 4 spell called Super Magic Missile, which is identical to a Maximized Magic Missile, is reasonable right?
Sure, you could make a decent case for that, but it's unlikely that a 4th level spell would only scale up to CL 9. Probably the spell you'd get would be slightly different.


Now what if you use metamagic reducers to have a +0 maximized magic missile? Then couldn't you research a level 1 spell called Super Magic Missile, claiming that only your character can create such a spell because he is a magic missile and metamagic specialist. (He has arcane thesis: Magic Missile).
Nothing stops you from naming the spell whatever you want, but if you want it to be a 1st level spell, it has to be in line with the power of other 1st level spells, or your research will tell you that it's impossible and you'll have wasted your time and money.


Then what if he adds Twin to that? Twinned Super Magic Missile, with metamagic reducers, is reduced to a level 1 spell, and he researches that as a new spell called Mega Magic Missile.
Same principle applies. If it's not in line with the power level of a 1st level spell, then it won't work.

[magicalmagicman]

Is there an official source for the last line of your post, or is it a houserule?

Anyway, there's a bit of an ambiguous rule in the 'a normal spell with metamagics' line. It could be interpreted as having the spell keep the metamagic, so an independently researched Twinned Magic Missile is still considered 'twinned' and can therefore not be enhanced with another Twinned. This is some pretty shaky RAW, but your DM may choose to enforce it (and he's well within his rights to do so).

Also note that you need to research and learn every spell to prepare the next phase.

It's a houserule. D&D doesn't have RAW for spell research. Spell research is 100% up to DM.

Except my DM is using that rule XD. I'm just poking a bit of fun.

[Deophaun]

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."
Because a normal spell with metamagics and feats and magic items is completely different than a normal spell with metamagics.

Or because infinite loops are not reasonable? That is the crux of the argument after all: Doing X is reasonable, therefore doing Y which is based off X which completely breaks the game is also reasonable. Well, no, it's not reasonable. And if you are in a position where Y must follow from X, then the premise that X is reasonable must also be wrong. X is only reasonable if there is no Y.

And let me state, the base rule is not reasonable. Take create magic tattoo. Add Fell Energy Spell to it. Now you have a fourth-level spell that an undead caster can use to gain +3 to CL. BUT, he can Fell Energy it again, to make it a fifth level spell for +5 to CL. He can research a new spell off that. BUT, he can Fell Energy it a third time, for +7 to CL. And so on. It's not a good rule.

[Troacctid]

It's a houserule. D&D doesn't have RAW for spell research. Spell research is 100% up to DM.
That's not true. There are guidelines for custom spells on pp35–36 of the DMG.

[Darth Ultron]

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."

Just say: Metamagic can't reduce a spells real level. Make it so a spells level can't be changed. You can only reduce the metamagic costs to zero, that is it.

Otherwise, just toss out spell levels and common sense....make all spells first level with effects way beyond 9th level spells....

[Zanos]

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."
Those things are not equivalent, because spells with metamagic on them are not considered to be the higher level and do not benefit from having a higher spell level for DCs or piercing certain defensive magics. Furthermore, having a metamagic version of a spell costs feats.

So I reject your premise that researching maximized magic missile as a 4th level spell is reasonable.

[TheFurith]

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."

Well I see nothing wrong with researching a spell with metamagic attached to it as a spell of the adjusted level. In most cases it just wouldn't be very good. I recall there being a feat, probably in some random 3rd party book, that allows for just such a thing for spontaneous casters. Think it was called Learned Metamagic. Googled it and came up with a similar feat, but not the one I'm thinking of.

However I have long since called shenanigans on anything that infinitely loops, regardless of rules.

[Jay R]

Give me an explanation that doesn't let me do that assuming the following rule is true: "A reasonable researchable spell is a normal spell with metamagics."

A normal spell with metamagics might be a reasonable researchable spell. It often will be, but I'm not convinced it always is. I'd want to rule on a case-by-case basis, and your example would be exhibit A for the need to do so.

But a normal spell with metamagics and metamagic reducers is absolutely not a reasonable researchable spell.

[Zweisteine]

In general, I would say that "a spell modified by a metamagic feat is a valid object of spell research" is not true.

Sure, if you want to create a 4th-level magic missile that is on par with maximized magic missile, that's fine, but it wouldn't be dealing maximum damage, it would be rolling bigger dice.

More importantly, even if you are straight-up using matamagic spells as the basis for your research, if you want to reduce it, sure. But if you want to base spell research on that spell, it will always be treated as the original spell, with metamagic. So sure, you could make a spell called twinned maximize magic missile, but it's a spell based on magic missile, not on maximized magic missile.

Also, I would argue that you can (almost) never incorporate metamagic reduction into spell research (unless it's reduction that doesn't work as the next sentence assumes). Metamagic reduction generally represents your particularly keen skill with a certain type of spell/metamagic. Sure, you can spend arcane energy extra efficiently on magic missiles, but you can't incorporate that into the spell, because it's not part of the spell, it's part of you.

[Quertus]

We've got Delayed Blast Fireball and Chain Lightning. So I think researching spells with metamagics attached is 100% RAW existent.

However, I believe such spells should count as having the metamagics already applied. So no chain Chain Lightning.

Personally, I'd have no problems with Foo's Maximized Missile, that only Foo can cast, that applies Foo's metamagics and metamagics reducers*. Of course, given the above, it would also be completely bloody useless to research such a spell, outside a few specific edge cases.

* 2e had spells of this sort - things like "fireball for 10d6 as a 3rd level spell; may only be cast by a wizard of 10th level or higher"

[Deophaun]

We've got Delayed Blast Fireball and Chain Lightning. So I think researching spells with metamagics attached is 100% RAW existent.
Question: what spell and what metamagic feat do you believe chain lightning is a combination of? Because it's not lightning bolt and Chain Spell; that's not a valid combination.

Also, delayed blast fireball is a level 7 wizard/sorcerer spell. Meanwhile, a Delay Spell fireball takes a 6th-level slot.

So, what's the RAW?

[Inevitability]

Question: what spell and what metamagic feat do you believe chain lightning is a combination of? Because it's not lightning bolt and Chain Spell; that's not a valid combination.

Also, delayed blast fireball is a level 7 wizard/sorcerer spell. Meanwhile, a Delay Spell fireball takes a 6th-level slot.

So, what's the RAW?

Also, Delayed Blast Fireball was available from the 3.0 PHB on, while Delay Spell didn't appear until the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

[lord_khaine]

And i recall reading somewhere in the 3.0 or 3.5 book about researching spells, that you could not in fact research a variant of a spell with a metamagic feat attached to it.
Sp to cut matters short, this is not a thing, the only way to abuse the research system is to fast-talk your gm.