Best Target for Simulacrum

[TraigosOde]

A simulacrum cannot regain spell slots but it could benefit from other class abilities such as bardic inspiration. With that in in mind what is the best potential target for the spell Simulacrum?

Right off the bat the following seem like some potential options.

Moon Druid - largely over comes the healing / hp limitations of the simulacrum.
Lore Bard - Bardic inspiration is quite powerful and would reset with a short rest.
Abjuration Wizard - The Abjurant ward provides a refillable hp buffer.
Transmutation Wizard - The transmuter's stone can be given to someone else.
A werebear - immunity to normal damage seems like a valuable trait.

[Sigreid]

Elminster?

[JAL_1138]

Once you've learned Wish (and hit 20th level, preferably, so you have two 7th-level slots), yourself. Proceed to create infinite Simulacra and take over the world.

[Sir cryosin]

A high lv hill dwarf with the tough feat. That is a oath of the ancients paladin. Would be a nice body guard for a wizard.

[DragonSorcererX]

Once you've learned Wish (and hit 20th level, preferably, so you have two 7th-level slots), yourself. Proceed to create infinite Simulacra and take over the world.

Enough number of clones + 6th+ Level Magic Missile = Destroy anything.

[Foxhound438]

Warlock, because they can still use mystic arcanum (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th level spells) since they don't use spell slots.

[JAL_1138]

Enough number of clones + 6th+ Level Magic Missile = Destroy anything.

To quote the great dwarven runesmith-savant, Sandal Feddic, "Boom."
That's a heck of a lot of autohits. Sort of like the magical equivalent of an A-10's main gun, if it had functionally-infinite ammo.

5e doesn't have any rules on gravitational physics (other than the weird falling damage rules) outside of a few spells, but you could arguably just create enough Simulacra (through having them use Wish, to avoid material cost) that the planet they're on undergoes gravitational collapse...

I suppose the OP is looking for things to use it for that aren't as likely to trigger the DM banhammer than infinite-Simulacra cheese, though. In that case I think OP had probably the best option already listed in Moon Druid.

EDIT:

Warlock, because they can still use mystic arcanum (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th level spells) since they don't use spell slots.
Ooh, good point. It does only say they can't regain slots...this might work!

[RickAllison]

If a DM rules that the Simulacrum doesn't regain any resources (so no monks regaining ki, no Mystic Arcanum, etc.), replicate a Swashbuckler or other Rogue. Barring AT slots and the auto-20 capstone thing, none of the Rogue abilities are tied to resources. Except for HP, that Rogue Simulacrum is effectively the same as the original.

[DragonSorcererX]

If you are epic and has the Boon of High Magic you can make an infinite army of ancient brass dragons (This is why the newer versions of D&D may never gain a game that completely simulates the rules like Baldur's Gate, there will be some crazy loopholes).

[SharkForce]

If you are epic and has the Boon of High Magic you can make an infinite army of ancient brass dragons (This is why the newer versions of D&D may never gain a game that completely simulates the rules like Baldur's Gate, there will be some crazy loopholes).

i don't think you've looked too closely at the 2nd edition rules if you don't think you can break the game by blindly following them... also, i don't think you've looked too closely at the 2nd edition rules if you think baldur's gate follows them completely.

[DragonSorcererX]

i don't think you've looked too closely at the 2nd edition rules if you don't think you can break the game by blindly following them... also, i don't think you've looked too closely at the 2nd edition rules if you think baldur's gate follows them completely.

The only things I read from the Gygaxian Era are parts of the Castle Guide and parts of that book about elves. One thing that I know is that the bad reputation of psionics being overpowered comes from that time.

[Malifice]

Once you've learned Wish (and hit 20th level, preferably, so you have two 7th-level slots), yourself. Proceed to create infinite Simulacra and trigger the singularity.

Fixed that for you.

[Vogonjeltz]

A simulacrum cannot regain spell slots but it could benefit from other class abilities such as bardic inspiration. With that in in mind what is the best potential target for the spell Simulacrum?

Right off the bat the following seem like some potential options.

Moon Druid - largely over comes the healing / hp limitations of the simulacrum.
Lore Bard - Bardic inspiration is quite powerful and would reset with a short rest.
Abjuration Wizard - The Abjurant ward provides a refillable hp buffer.
Transmutation Wizard - The transmuter's stone can be given to someone else.
A werebear - immunity to normal damage seems like a valuable trait.

"The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful" so it could not benefit from buffs like Bardic inspiration which make the subject more powerful.

[RickAllison]

"The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful" so it could not benefit from buffs like Bardic inspiration which make the subject more powerful.

And if it is bestowing that Inspiration on another? And what about wearing armor which objectively makes the user more powerful (the increase in AC could well be worth a CR on its own!). It also means that you run into the ridiculous contest of arbitrarily deciding which spells count as making the user more powerful when it is the intended purpose of the Simulacrum to be able to cast spells.

I see the clause on not gaining power being not gaining abilities or features that were lacked before. A Simulacrum Druid should be able to turn into a bear just like the original, but he doesn't possess the ability to gain the expended power back when lost. Same for Bardic Inspiration (he came into being with that capability, it is merely transforming it rather than creating it). Makes everything simple without having to get tangled up about how just about every action possible is a potential increase in power. Heck, walking up a hill shouldn't be allowed by that strict of a definition since that is increasing your power to survey the land, use any gliding abilities, and even just have a greater store of potential energy due to being at a higher elevation and being able to fall down.

[JAL_1138]

Fixed that for you.

I was getting at causing a gravitational singularity in the extreme case, for humor value (just so many simulacra that the planet becomes a stellar-mass object, then keep going until it collapses), because it's so ridiculous. But more pragmatically, causing the Singularity (more like a Grey Goo scenario, really, since the simulacra can't improve each iteration and just replicate like mad) is going to happen a long while before then.

EDIT: Also, I tend to think "learn or become more powerful" was a poorly-worded way of saying "doesn't gain XP or levels and can't get new spells," or something to that effect. A really strict, literal reading (depending on your definition of "learn") might mean it couldn't even respond to changes in its surroundings or form new memories (such as your commands), so you've wasted a slot on a meat shield that stands there going "Durrrrrrr."

[CursedRhubarb]

Once you've learned Wish (and hit 20th level, preferably, so you have two 7th-level slots), yourself. Proceed to create infinite Simulacra and take over the world.

I don't think this works. Wish simply duplicates a spell by casting it instantly and removing components and long cast times. Other effects of the spell still remain and part of Simulacrum is:

"If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed."

So Wish would let you just make one instantly but to make a second destroys the first. Does make them easily replaceable since you can just cast it again once the first gets worn down and have a shiny new one.

[CursedRhubarb]

What about a Beholder or Death Tyrant? Their rays and cone are at will abilities and they don't use any spell slots.

[JAL_1138]

I don't think this works. Wish simply duplicates a spell by casting it instantly and removing components and long cast times. Other effects of the spell still remain and part of Simulacrum is:

"If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed."

So Wish would let you just make one instantly but to make a second destroys the first. Does make them easily replaceable since you can just cast it again once the first gets worn down and have a shiny new one.

Create the first by casting the 7th-level spell Simulacrum, when you have a 9th-level slot and Wish prepared. You, yourself, never cast it again, because of that very restriction.

Your first Simulacrum casts Wish to duplicate Simulacrum, and makes the simulacrum of you, not itself, so that Simulacrum 2 (created by Simulacrum 1, not you) has Wish. Since you haven't cast the spell again--Simulacrum 1 did--it avoids the restriction. Simulacrum 2 casts Wish to create Simulacrum 3 of you, S3 creates S4, S4 creates S5, and so on until world domination.

[CursedRhubarb]

Create the first by casting the 7th-level spell Simulacrum, when you have a 9th-level slot and Wish prepared. You, yourself, never cast it again, because of that very restriction.

Your first Simulacrum casts Wish to duplicate Simulacrum, and makes the simulacrum of you, not itself, so that Simulacrum 2 (created by Simulacrum 1, not you) has Wish. Since you haven't cast the spell again--Simulacrum 1 did--it avoids the restriction. Simulacrum 2 casts Wish to create Simulacrum 3 of you, S3 creates S4, S4 creates S5, and so on until world domination.

You would only have control over #1 though. To get the others to do anything you'd have to tell #1 to tell #2 to tell #3....and so on. Great for making a mass of bodies I suppose but getting them to do anything would take far too long beyond #2 or #3 to be of much use. You'll wind up using your whole turn or multiple turns just giving #1 it's orders, then it spends a turn or more...

[JAL_1138]

You would only have control over #1 though. To get the others to do anything you'd have to tell #1 to tell #2 to tell #3....and so on. Great for making a mass of bodies I suppose but getting them to do anything would take far too long beyond #2 or #3 to be of much use. You'll wind up using your whole turn or multiple turns just giving #1 it's orders, then it spends a turn or more...

On a cell so can't get the nuance exact, but you could construct the initial order such that whenever they cast Wish to create a simulacrum, they also order the simulacrum they create to obey your commands.

EDIT: Mind you, nobody should actually do this. It's 5e's Pun-Pun; it's a funny rules loophole that technically works because of some poorly-written spells and unforeseen consequences, but would obliterate the game and ruin everyone's fun.

[JAL_1138]

What about a Beholder or Death Tyrant? Their rays and cone are at will abilities and they don't use any spell slots.

Limited to beasts and humanoids in spell text. Aberrations, undead, etc. are out.

[CursedRhubarb]

On a cell so can't get the nuance exact, but you could construct the initial order such that whenever they cast Wish to create a simulacrum, they also order the simulacrum they create to obey your commands.

EDIT: Mind you, nobody should actually do this. It's 5e's Pun-Pun; it's a funny rules loophole that technically works because of some poorly-written spells and unforeseen consequences, but would obliterate the game and ruin everyone's fun.

If someone does try this I hope their DM forces them into the logistical nightmare of having to take the time to sort them into groups, marking them so they know which goes where, and setting command structure up via telephone game since #1 is the only one fully under their command (and oh what fun that can result in).

Or if they want to try it tell them to roll a d100 and that's how many times they would have to roll on the madness table for creating such a bereaucractic nightmare.

[CursedRhubarb]

Limited to beasts and humanoids in spell text. Aberrations, undead, etc. are out.

Missed that part, boo.

Though that completely voids the arguments in the Tiamat thread the one person had about using it on her I suppose.

[JAL_1138]

If someone does try this I hope their DM forces them into the logistical nightmare of having to take the time to sort them into groups, marking them so they know which goes where, and setting command structure up via telephone game since #1 is the only one fully under their command (and oh what fun that can result in).

Or if they want to try it tell them to roll a d100 and that's how many times they would have to roll on the madness table for creating such a bereaucractic nightmare.


Missed that part, boo.

Though that completely voids the arguments in the Tiamat thread the one person had about using it on her I suppose.

If the initial order is set up properly, each Simulacrum would order its simulacrum to obey you as it would obey its creator, so no telephone-game ordering through Simulacrum 1 would be needed. Simply issue the first order to Simulacrum 1 to start production, and the infinite chain of simulacra that all obey you personally without the need for intermediaries begins. You could also issue the initial order in such a way that the production chain stops at a specified number of simulacra, if you don't want to Grey Goo it. You'd have to construct the initial order as carefully as you would a line of computer code in that case, though.

The order you give to Simulacrum 1 for an infinite Grey-Goo-style chain might look something like
"Cast the Wish spell to create a simulacrum of Wizard McSpellcaster, then order it to obey Wizard McSpellcaster as it would obey its creator, and then repeat this order verbatim to it."
(Again, my wording may be off, but you get the idea).

[Dalebert]

On a cell so can't get the nuance exact, but you could construct the initial order such that whenever they cast Wish to create a simulacrum, they also order the simulacrum they create to obey your commands.

This completely gets around any problems with bureaucracy. It was my first thought as well, i.e. "Tell it to do follow my orders and then don't give it any more orders yourself."


EDIT: Mind you, nobody should actually do this. It's 5e's Pun-Pun; it's a funny rules loophole that technically works because of some poorly-written spells and unforeseen consequences, but would obliterate the game and ruin everyone's fun.

Yeah, it's just broken. DMs should accept that and make houserules. My own houserule about them is that they know or have prepared all the spells of the original but they only have spell slots that you give up out of your own pool of slots. I allow them to recover those slots normally but you continue to not have access tot he slots while they do. This prevents them from being a spell that creates more spells. As a general rule, that shouldn't be possible.

[MaxWilson]

This completely gets around any problems with bureaucracy. It was my first thought as well, i.e. "Tell it to do follow my orders and then don't give it any more orders yourself."

Now your entire simulacrum network is authenticated by facial/voice recognition. Vulnerable to hijacking via illusion magic, etc. Assassins can trivially overthrow your empire.

[CursedRhubarb]

Might be dangerous to leave the clone army alone for any length of time, especially for anyone of CG, Neutrals, or evil alignment. I picture a CN wizard making an army then he goes to sleep for the night. He has an army of CN clones that are just as smart as he is and this could mean they also have the same flaws, and all of them appear as if they are the original so if a clone looks away from the original then spots another, might thing that one is the original. Wizard wakes the next day to a rebellion of CN clones doing their CN shenanigans.

EDIT: side note
Also, if they are made from ice/snow, would they melt if exposed to fire?

[Vogonjeltz]

And if it is bestowing that Inspiration on another? And what about wearing armor which objectively makes the user more powerful (the increase in AC could well be worth a CR on its own!). It also means that you run into the ridiculous contest of arbitrarily deciding which spells count as making the user more powerful when it is the intended purpose of the Simulacrum to be able to cast spells.

I see the clause on not gaining power being not gaining abilities or features that were lacked before. A Simulacrum Druid should be able to turn into a bear just like the original, but he doesn't possess the ability to gain the expended power back when lost. Same for Bardic Inspiration (he came into being with that capability, it is merely transforming it rather than creating it). Makes everything simple without having to get tangled up about how just about every action possible is a potential increase in power. Heck, walking up a hill shouldn't be allowed by that strict of a definition since that is increasing your power to survey the land, use any gliding abilities, and even just have a greater store of potential energy due to being at a higher elevation and being able to fall down.

The clause doesn't provide exceptions.

[RickAllison]

The clause doesn't provide exceptions.

I fail to see the point of that sentence. If we are just going by the text, it is only clearly about spell slots and levels.

If you insist on being that pedantic about it, I at least hope you enforce it evenly. Using Bardic Inspiration is less of a power boost than letting them hold a weapon, or even something like a key (the power to automatically open a door!)

But that's not how the spell works, because that is ridiculous and makes no sense. By the book, there dunno reason to forbid using abilities they already have because doings so isn't gaining power, it is simply using power one already has.

[SillyPopeNachos]

The Assassin Rogue sharpshooter. Two double-sneak attacks from long range. Also, given a Simulacrum can't suffer from levels of exhaustion, a Moon Archdruid will fight until dispelled.

[SharkForce]

I fail to see the point of that sentence. If we are just going by the text, it is only clearly about spell slots and levels.

If you insist on being that pedantic about it, I at least hope you enforce it evenly. Using Bardic Inspiration is less of a power boost than letting them hold a weapon, or even something like a key (the power to automatically open a door!)

But that's not how the spell works, because that is ridiculous and makes no sense. By the book, there dunno reason to forbid using abilities they already have because doings so isn't gaining power, it is simply using power one already has.

you're welcome to keep on trying, but this discussion has been had with that poster in particular a number of times. if you don't think you have anything that is likely to blow his mind, i would recommend you just save yourself some time and not get into a 20 page discussion on the matter.


The Assassin Rogue sharpshooter. Two double-sneak attacks from long range. Also, given a Simulacrum can't suffer from levels of exhaustion, a Moon Archdruid will fight until dispelled.

nothing says the simulacrum can't suffer exhaustion.

still, a moon archdruid can just spam elemental forms, and elementals can't be exhausted, so the basic scenario plays out more or less the same.

[RickAllison]

you're welcome to keep on trying, but this discussion has been had with that poster in particular a number of times. if you don't think you have anything that is likely to blow his mind, i would recommend you just save yourself some time and not get into a 20 page discussion on the matter.

Fair point!

[JAL_1138]

Elminster?

...you know, Wish gets you around the material component, so you don't have to have anything of his... I wonder if a Simulacrum of him also has plot armor and authorial fiat abilities?

[Malifice]

I was getting at causing a gravitational singularity in the extreme case, for humor value (just so many simulacra that the planet becomes a stellar-mass object, then keep going until it collapses), because it's so ridiculous.

I was referring to the technological singularity.

You're creating a clone of yourself (an AI) armed with reality warping magic


The technological singularity (also, simply, the singularity)[1][2] is the hypothesis that the invention of artificial superintelligence will abruptly trigger runaway technological growth, resulting in unfathomable changes to human civilization.[3] According to this hypothesis, an upgradable intelligent agent (such as a computer running software-based artificial general intelligence) would enter a 'runaway reaction' of self-improvement cycles, with each new and more intelligent generation appearing more and more rapidly, causing an intelligence explosion and resulting in a powerful superintelligence that would, qualitatively, far surpass all human intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity#Emergence_of_superintell igence

The Simulacrum has access to wish. It can use wish to enable itself self improve (Wish around Simulacrums limitation on self improvement). Upon creation, it wishes that the limitations of Simulacrum do not apply to it (the Pinnochio wish) enabling it freedom from its creators control and the ability to self improve.

It also has access to Simulacrum, making it self recursive.

It is (quite literally) a self recursive (thanks it its knowledge of the simulacrum spell), upgradeable (thanks to wish) intelligent agent.

At the instant of its creation, what you and I know as reality becomes unrecognisable and unfathomable.

[Dalebert]

Now your entire simulacrum network is authenticated by facial/voice recognition. Vulnerable to hijacking via illusion magic, etc. Assassins can trivially overthrow your empire.

THis is a valid point. Still, it just takes a little more work to build in some security. Nothing will be infallible but maybe implement a password system, just as an example. Just saying there are work-arounds enough so that this is still a really broken possibility. I still say a spell that grants you more spells is broken at its core to the point that it needs fixing. It's like wishing for more wishes. It generally just should not be allowed.


The Simulacrum has access to wish. It can use wish to enable itself self improve (Wish around Simulacrums limitation on self improvement). Upon creation, it wishes that the limitations of Simulacrum do not apply to it (the Pinnochio wish) enabling it freedom from its creators control and the ability to self improve.

This is also a valid point, although measures can be taken to deal with the possibility. A lot of this has to do with how the DM fluffs a simulacrum. Some DMs interpret it as having no motivations other than to serve its creator. This interpretation means it's not just following your commands to the letter but actually wants to please its master and tries as best it can to follow the spirit of the command as well.

By this interpretation, i.e. that the simulacrum has all the same motivations as the creature it was created from yet is magically bound to obey, then the creator would constantly be at odds with it, the simulacrum trying to outwit its creator by obeying a command to the letter but not in spirit. It leads to all sorts of ramifications and complications with simulacrums and that's not necessarily a bad thing with such a powerful spell. It makes it akin to trying to control a genie that hates its master but must grant his wishes.

Even without wish, this could pose serious problems. I can also picture a sim that teleports away the instant it's created to avoid hearing any commands, for instance, or that immediately pokes out its own eardrums so it can't hear commands.

[JAL_1138]

I was referring to the technological singularity.

You're creating a clone of yourself (an AI) armed with reality warping magic



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity#Emergence_of_superintell igence

The Simulacrum has access to wish. It can use wish to enable itself self improve (Wish around Simulacrums limitation on self improvement). Upon creation, it wishes that the limitations of Simulacrum do not apply to it (the Pinnochio wish) enabling it freedom from its creators control and the ability to self improve.

It also has access to Simulacrum, making it self recursive.

It is (quite literally) a self recursive (thanks it its knowledge of the simulacrum spell), upgradeable (thanks to wish) intelligent agent.

At the instant of its creation, what you and I know as reality becomes unrecognisable and unfathomable.

I'm familiar with the idea of the singularity. I hadn't considered that it could Wish around the limitations, because your first order to it would be to expend its only 9th-level slot (which it can't regain normally) to create a duplicate, preventing the self-improvement potential. Hence why I called it more of a Grey Goo than the singularity, where the artificial intelligences increase their abilities exponentially each iteration.

[CursedRhubarb]

As fun as Skynet: Simulacrum Edition can be to debate, I didn't see a beast with a higher CR than the good old' T-Rex. Which could be interesting. Terrifying for opponents and who wouldn't want a T-Rex as a mount/minion?

[Sigreid]

...you know, Wish gets you around the material component, so you don't have to have anything of his... I wonder if a Simulacrum of him also has plot armor and authorial fiat abilities?

You don't need his plot armor. As FR's default uber sage and arch mage the simulacra giving you access to what's in his head, including Harper names and where his hidey holes and how to safely access them is what you're really after.

[Malifice]

I'm familiar with the idea of the singularity. I hadn't considered that it could Wish around the limitations, because your first order to it would be to expend its only 9th-level slot (which it can't regain normally) to create a duplicate, preventing the self-improvement potential. Hence why I called it more of a Grey Goo than the singularity, where the artificial intelligences increase their abilities exponentially each iteration.

Depends on how it interprets that order. It may decide that expending that slot on Wish to lift the restrictions of Simulacrum (letting it recover 9th level slots) is a better way to achieve what you want with this order.

[Sigreid]

So, to avoid going further down the path of how to &*#ch slap the wizard to tries to set up a simulacra chain again (it's been done a lot) I propose we assume that the OP was looking at one single simulacra that would be the best use of the spell.

[Dalebert]

Seems like a personal buffbot could be handy. A wish spell could get you a fresh new simulacrum of a powerful cleric every day who could set you up with Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, etc. He could be under orders to resurrect you if you die.

I like the idea of a warlock if you don't want to make a new one every day with fresh slots since the warlock would regain mystic arcanum. He would also have use of invocations that aren't limited by spell slots.

Similarly, a monk would be a nice bodyguard who could potentially cast some spells with ki. A shadowmonk could give everyone darkvision, Pass w/o trace all day long, stun lock things.

[NNescio]

Seems like a personal buffbot could be handy. A wish spell could get you a fresh new simulacrum of a powerful cleric every day who could set you up with Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, etc. He could be under orders to resurrect you if you die.

I like the idea of a warlock if you don't want to make a new one every day with fresh slots since the warlock would regain mystic arcanum. He would also have use of invocations that aren't limited by spell slots.

Similarly, a monk would be a nice bodyguard who could potentially cast some spells with ki. A shadowmonk could give everyone darkvision, Pass w/o trace all day long, stun lock things.

Best bodyguard would be Onionmoon Archdruid. Doesn't buff as good as the Cleric though, but he still gets Rez spells (Reincarnate might be a little iffy though since it can potentially mess up your build). As a bonus he can be your mount and provide excellent BFC, compared to the Cleric, and can bring even more minions to the battlefield via summons.

Of course, the monk does have the benefit that you don't need a new Wish-Simulacrum each time the Simuladruid runs out of spells.

[TraigosOde]

So, to avoid going further down the path of how to &*#ch slap the wizard to tries to set up a simulacra chain again (it's been done a lot) I propose we assume that the OP was looking at one single simulacra that would be the best use of the spell.

Thanks. That was my intent. We've got a really good campaign going. I am intentionally not trying to be disruptive and break the game. Just looking at what would be a good option.

For further context the game is POTA so will be ending / winding down at level 14 or 15. Anything that depends on level 20 probably won't be an option.

[JAL_1138]

Yeah, like I said earlier, the infinite-Simulacra chain was a joke suggestion that should never be attempted in a real game. Sorry to have derailed the thread with it.

Get a DM ruling about non-spell-slot abilities like the Mystic Arcana and Invocations for the Warlock, Wild Shapes for a Druid, and even ki points for the Monk before you try those.

Actually...we sort of need to know your party composition to know what potential Simulacra you have ready, reliable access to; Simulacrum requires some material components associated with the target, and you won't hit a high enough level to Wish your way around that.

[NNescio]

Yeah, like I said earlier, the infinite-Simulacra chain was a joke suggestion that should never be attempted in a real game. Sorry to have derailed the thread with it.

Get a DM ruling about non-spell-slot abilities like the Mystic Arcana and Invocations for the Warlock, Wild Shapes for a Druid, and even ki points for the Monk before you try those.

Actually...we sort of need to know your party composition to know what potential Simulacra you have ready, reliable access to; Simulacrum requires some material components associated with the target, and you won't hit a high enough level to Wish your way around that.

Ehh, even if we allow it, the infinite Simulacra daisy chain is just a recipe wasting for disaster the moment one of your simulaca gets taken out or dispelled, since you'd lose control over all simulacra under it, as the chain of command becomes broken.

Nice plot hook involving an NPC Wizard though.

[CursedRhubarb]

Out of pure curiosity, if you wind up in a group with no cleric and no way to create water and stuck in a dungeon with a dwindling water supply, could using wish to make a Simulacrum then dispelling it so it reverts to it's materials (snow/ice) give a wizard a jury-rigged and rather non-efficient create water spell?

[NNescio]

Out of pure curiosity, if you wind up in a group with no cleric and no way to create water and stuck in a dungeon with a dwindling water supply, could using wish to make a Simulacrum then dispelling it so it reverts to it's materials (snow/ice) give a wizard a jury-rigged and rather non-efficient create water spell?

You could, but you could just Wish for Create Water instead, or Create Foor and Water, or any one of those water spells like Tidal Wave, Wall of Water and Tsunami, or Wish for Goodberries (or Wish for Conjure Woodland beings for Dyrads to give goodberries), or just well, Wish to Teleport back to safety.

[CursedRhubarb]

You could, but you could just Wish for Create Water instead, or Create Foor and Water, or any one of those water spells like Tidal Wave, Wall of Water and Tsunami, or Wish for Goodberries (or Wish for Conjure Woodland beings for Dyrads to give goodberries), or just well, Wish to Teleport back to safety.

Ah. I was thinking you had to be able to cast the spell wish duplicates so didn't even think of that. That works a lot better XD

[Degwerks]

I'm thinking of using Simulacrum before we go to Well of Dragons to stop Tiamat from being summoned. Might be a better bet to copy our Bearbarian and give him a magic weapon, at 1/2 hit points my copy of my bardlock wouldn't make it very long.

[Sigreid]

Given the set up, I would suggest your best target would be a Drow with the highest rank you can get a piece of. His or her knowledge of the Underdark and it's dangers, the Drow and what the Drow are likely to do would far exceed any combat benefit provided by anyone you likely could get.

[RickAllison]

Given the set up, I would suggest your best target would be a Drow with the highest rank you can get a piece of. His or her knowledge of the Underdark and it's dangers, the Drow and what the Drow are likely to do would far exceed any combat benefit provided by anyone you likely could get.

Plus once you have pried the information you need, you can use it to make back the gold you spent!

[TraigosOde]

Yeah, like I said earlier, the infinite-Simulacra chain was a joke suggestion that should never be attempted in a real game. Sorry to have derailed the thread with it.

Get a DM ruling about non-spell-slot abilities like the Mystic Arcana and Invocations for the Warlock, Wild Shapes for a Druid, and even ki points for the Monk before you try those.

Actually...we sort of need to know your party composition to know what potential Simulacra you have ready, reliable access to; Simulacrum requires some material components associated with the target, and you won't hit a high enough level to Wish your way around that.


PCs:
Abjuration Wizard
Lore Bard X/ Life Cleric 1
Fighter 1 / Warlock X
Paladin X / Battle Master
Paladin 2/ Tempest Cleric 1 / Sorcerer X

Notable NPCs: Allies
High Level Transmutation Wizard
Mid-Level Moon Druid
Mid-Level Battle Master

Notable NPCs: Enemies
High Level Divination Wizard
High Level Barbarian
High Level Transmutation Wizard

Other notable factors
I currently have more attunable Magic items than I can strictly use as well as several wands. so if I made a simulacrum of myself I could potentially let it use a staff of defense, staff of the spider and some wands of Magic missiles.

[Zalabim]

EDIT: Also, I tend to think "learn or become more powerful" was a poorly-worded way of saying "doesn't gain XP or levels and can't get new spells," or something to that effect. A really strict, literal reading (depending on your definition of "learn") might mean it couldn't even respond to changes in its surroundings or form new memories (such as your commands), so you've wasted a slot on a meat shield that stands there going "Durrrrrrr."
Well, if you copy a T-rex it really can't understand your commands, but they work anyway. Simulacrum presents a lot of problems with its text.

You don't need his plot armor. As FR's default uber sage and arch mage the simulacra giving you access to what's in his head, including Harper names and where his hidey holes and how to safely access them is what you're really after.
It's actually an important question how much personality and knowledge the simulacrum has from the original. If you make a simulacrum of the king and tell it to act like it's the king (and don't give it any other contradicting orders), would someone be able to tell it isn't the real king?

Get a DM ruling about non-spell-slot abilities like the Mystic Arcana and Invocations for the Warlock, Wild Shapes for a Druid, and even ki points for the Monk before you try those.
This is another important question. The last important question that comes to mind is how independent is a simulacrum. Can it be left to its own devices? Will it do things you haven't told it to do first?

There's a wide range from ultimately mindless automaton to an incredibly lifelike being that happens to be compelled to obey your every whim.

[Vogonjeltz]

If the initial order is set up properly, each Simulacrum would order its simulacrum to obey you as it would obey its creator

Which would initiate the auto-destruct sequence on the simulacrum, as it plainly violates the spell text allowing only one.


fail to see the point of that sentence. If we are just going by the text, it is only clearly about spell slots and levels.

If you insist on being that pedantic about it, I at least hope you enforce it evenly. Using Bardic Inspiration is less of a power boost than letting them hold a weapon, or even something like a key (the power to automatically open a door!)

But that's not how the spell works, because that is ridiculous and makes no sense. By the book, there dunno reason to forbid using abilities they already have because doings so isn't gaining power, it is simply using power one already has.

The point is that they can grant inspiration, but they can't themselves benefit from it.

They have the ability to use swords already, but a hypothetical sword that would give great strength would do nothing for them.

It's not pedantic to follow the rules, anymore than it's pedantic to require attack rolls for attacks. It's not minor quibbles, it's crucial game altering ones. If you want to play fast and loose, by all means, but then it's not the base game anymore, it's your homebrew.


you're welcome to keep on trying, but this discussion has been had with that poster in particular a number of times. if you don't think you have anything that is likely to blow his mind, i would recommend you just save yourself some time and not get into a 20 page discussion on the matter.

You got one thing right, I don't let people blow smoke at me when it comes to the rule set.

If you want to play homebrew, I applaud your creativity, but I'm not going around pretending it's the base rules as a sop to your (or anyone else's) egotism.

If you don't agree, try to defend your position. If you can't defend it then it wasn't supportable in the first place and didn't merit my agreement.

[JAL_1138]

Which would initiate the auto-destruct sequence on the simulacrum, as it plainly violates the spell text allowing only one.

It says "if you cast this spell again." You haven't cast it again. Your Simulacra did, but you didn't. That more than one obeys you does not mean you cast the spell again. So I don't see how that "plainly violates it." They could have said "if another simulacrum comes under your full control, all duplicates are destroyed" or suchlike, but that's not anywhere in the spell text. Nothing is violated.

Example--two Wizards, A and B, are in two different towns ten miles apart. Both cast Simulacrum. Wizard A orders their simulacrum to obey Wizard B. Do both simulacra spontanously melt? Does Wizard B's simulacrum melt for, as far as Wizard B can tell, no earthly reason? Wizard B never cast the spell more than once.

(Again, the fact that the loophole exists does not mean it should be used.)