PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Envoy (New Base Class)



Eliecc
2016-09-11, 08:01 AM
Hey guys,

I've been working on this class with a friend for about a week now for an upcoming game, and thought it was time to get some serious feedback on it.

This is my first homebrewed class, and I get the feeling that it might be just a little (maybe a lot) too strong:confused:. So i'm looking for any ideas that might help bring the class back in line.

The Envoy Class (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryjWg59o)

Sariel Vailo
2016-09-11, 11:33 AM
Have you playtested it.

Lalliman
2016-09-11, 01:00 PM
I analysed the features and skimmed the battle scars, and this is my verdict: Overall, it strikes me as close to balanced, but a bit too powerful. It seems like it has the abilities of the monk and the fighter combined. I suggest you remove the second Extra Attack and replace it with a ribbon. Extra Attack is a huge damage boost, so that's the main thing that pushes it over the edge, I think.

Or well, that verdict is if you ignore Grim Resistance. Resistance against physical damage has to go, that's just crazy. Yes, barbarians get it, but only for a few minutes a day. Magic weapons can pierce it, but how many of the enemies you encounter are going to have those? 5%? The fact that it's at first level makes it even worse due to dipping potential. If you really want this mechanic, maybe put it at level 11, in place of Extra Attack. I personally don't like giving resistance to nonmagical damage to PCs at all though, as it's kind of taunting the DM to metagame.

Lastly, a few other problems I noticed.
1. You offer two-weapon fighting style, but the sickle isn't light, so dual-wielding causes some awkwardness. Until you can get a feat at 4th level, you'd have to spend 3 levels either not benefiting from your fighting style, or using mundane non-bonded weapons.

2. Growing Shadows: Abilities that let you regain a resource upon rolling initiative always have the requirement of having 0 of that resource. If you take that away, it can be exploited in silly ways.
> Ask a fellow party member for a sparring match.
> Roll initiative and regain shadow points.
> Tell them never mind.
> Move on to the next party member and repeat until at full shadow points.
Yeah, it's dumb and the DM can easily veto it, but I prefer to avoid such a problem at the source.

3. Shadow Harvest is vulnerable to the bag of rats exploit. If you haven't heard of it, use your imagination. This sort of abuse is limited with the warlock's Dark One's Blessing because that can't stack.

4. Crippling Sweep apparently halves the target's movement speed forever.

Eliecc
2016-09-11, 02:39 PM
Have you playtested it.

I have done a one shot with the original concept I made (which was a fighter archetype) and discovered that it was too powerful.

This is the reimagined version with it's own class.

So as of yet, no. It hasn't been playtested.

Rerem115
2016-09-11, 03:22 PM
Unlimited healing is a very dangerous thing to be handing out to players. Anything that heals you in combat should probably only give temp hp. Even then, Shadow Strikes is probably too strong; here's some math to show why (assume dual wielding at all times):

Level 2--Attack two different enemies the first round of combat. The next round, use Shadow Strikes and attack an enemy, dealing an additional 1d4 damage while healing the same amount. Every round afterwards, do an additional 2d4 damage and heal for the same amount.

Level 5--Attack two different enemies and use Shadow Strikes. The next round(s), deal and heal up to 3d4.

Level 11--Attack 2 different enemies, then whoever you want, and use Shadow Strikes. The next round(s), deal and heal up to 4d6

At second level, you're healing for up to one third of your maximum hit points every round, every fight. At 5th and 11th level, you heal for up to one fourth of your maximum hit points every round, every fight. That is simply ridiculous, and should probably have the healing aspect removed; even if it were temp hp, it would still be too strong, since you'd get it every round.

Rerem115
2016-09-11, 03:27 PM
Also, Riposting Shadows is much too strong; it's essentially Extra Attack (2) 3 levels early, which means that your class has 4 attacks a round at level 11. That's nine levels earlier than the fighter.

Eliecc
2016-09-11, 03:55 PM
I analysed the features and skimmed the battle scars, and this is my verdict: Overall, it strikes me as close to balanced, but a bit too powerful. It seems like it has the abilities of the monk and the fighter combined. I suggest you remove the second Extra Attack and replace it with a ribbon. Extra Attack is a huge damage boost, so that's the main thing that pushes it over the edge, I think.

Or well, that verdict is if you ignore Grim Resistance. Resistance against physical damage has to go, that's just crazy. Yes, barbarians get it, but only for a few minutes a day. Magic weapons can pierce it, but how many of the enemies you encounter are going to have those? 5%? The fact that it's at first level makes it even worse due to dipping potential. If you really want this mechanic, maybe put it at level 11, in place of Extra Attack. I personally don't like giving resistance to nonmagical damage to PCs at all though, as it's kind of taunting the DM to metagame.

Lastly, a few other problems I noticed.
1. You offer two-weapon fighting style, but the sickle isn't light, so dual-wielding causes some awkwardness. Until you can get a feat at 4th level, you'd have to spend 3 levels either not benefiting from your fighting style, or using mundane non-bonded weapons.

2. Growing Shadows: Abilities that let you regain a resource upon rolling initiative always have the requirement of having 0 of that resource. If you take that away, it can be exploited in silly ways.
> Ask a fellow party member for a sparring match.
> Roll initiative and regain shadow points.
> Tell them never mind.
> Move on to the next party member and repeat until at full shadow points.
Yeah, it's dumb and the DM can easily veto it, but I prefer to avoid such a problem at the source.

3. Shadow Harvest is vulnerable to the bag of rats exploit. If you haven't heard of it, use your imagination. This sort of abuse is limited with the warlock's Dark One's Blessing because that can't stack.

4. Crippling Sweep apparently halves the target's movement speed forever.

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I have made some changes / have some questions from what you have suggested.

1. I was considering the sickle to be somewhat a reskin of the rapier. Making it a light weapon would most likely mean reducing the damage die to a d6? (As there is no light weapon in the PHB with higher that a d6 damage die) Maybe I can add in a new type of sickle to accommodate this?

2. added in the requirement of 0 shadow points "Growing Shadows: At 6th level when you roll for initiative and have no shadow points you gain 2 shadow points."
- I thought it would be fine with the "These shadow points disappear after 1 minute of not being in combat." but I guess you can never be too careful. I suppose I could also change that to read "These shadow points disappear when combat ends." Thoughts?

3. It seems one of the restrictions I put on this didn't make it into the document, which was "You can only gain shadow points in this way once per round. ".
- Regardless, I think this still leaves it open to abuse like you said. I must admit on this one I am stumped on how to fix. Any Suggestions?
- The only thing I can think of is adding a CR requirement to the creatures killed ... so something like creatures of CR 1/2 or higher yield shadow points in this way.
- The point of the reaper archetype is that it masters the use of battle scars / shadow points. Gaining more than the other archetypes.

4. Updated crippling sweep to now include a duration. "their movement reduced by half for 1 minute or until healed. "

Now for the big one. Grim Resistance: The idea behind it was this front line melee class sacrifices the use of medium and heavy armor to use some of it's abilities. (Somewhat similar to the barbarian just with less health and no unarmored defense)
Without the resistance, I feel like they would be getting punished for this and that DEX based builds would outshine STR based ones by a lot because of the low AC.
That being said, I do see your point about it being bad for 1st level and the problems that come with that.

You suggested moving it to 11th level replacing the 2nd attack. I feel like this is a little too late due to what i said above.
Does this also mean there is an issue with the 2nd attack?

Eliecc
2016-09-11, 04:37 PM
Unlimited healing is a very dangerous thing to be handing out to players. Anything that heals you in combat should probably only give temp hp. Even then, Shadow Strikes is probably too strong; here's some math to show why (assume dual wielding at all times):

Level 2--Attack two different enemies the first round of combat. The next round, use Shadow Strikes and attack an enemy, dealing an additional 1d4 damage while healing the same amount. Every round afterwards, do an additional 2d4 damage and heal for the same amount.

Level 5--Attack two different enemies and use Shadow Strikes. The next round(s), deal and heal up to 3d4.

Level 11--Attack 2 different enemies, then whoever you want, and use Shadow Strikes. The next round(s), deal and heal up to 4d6

At second level, you're healing for up to one third of your maximum hit points every round, every fight. At 5th and 11th level, you heal for up to one fourth of your maximum hit points every round, every fight. That is simply ridiculous, and should probably have the healing aspect removed; even if it were temp hp, it would still be too strong, since you'd get it every round.

Also, Riposting Shadows is much too strong; it's essentially Extra Attack (2) 3 levels early, which means that your class has 4 attacks a round at level 11. That's nine levels earlier than the fighter.

Thanks so much for the input.
It's true, the healing was a bit of a problem in the previous versions and I did cut it back a lot. However I failed to consider dual wielding as much as you have. A possible fix to this while keeping the idea could be reducing the health gained by half and restricting it to once per turn. - Thoughts?

as for riposting shadows, would adding a shadow point cost to use the reaction make it a little better?
For example: Beginning at 7th level, when a creature within 5 feet of you make an attack at you or an ally, you can spend 2 shadow points to use your reaction and make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
I feel this cuts down on the amount of times you could use the ability.

Lalliman
2016-09-12, 12:47 AM
1. I was considering the sickle to be somewhat a reskin of the rapier. Making it a light weapon would most likely mean reducing the damage die to a d6? (As there is no light weapon in the PHB with higher that a d6 damage die) Maybe I can add in a new type of sickle to accommodate this?

2. added in the requirement of 0 shadow points "Growing Shadows: At 6th level when you roll for initiative and have no shadow points you gain 2 shadow points."
- I thought it would be fine with the "These shadow points disappear after 1 minute of not being in combat." but I guess you can never be too careful. I suppose I could also change that to read "These shadow points disappear when combat ends." Thoughts?

3. It seems one of the restrictions I put on this didn't make it into the document, which was "You can only gain shadow points in this way once per round. ".
- Regardless, I think this still leaves it open to abuse like you said. I must admit on this one I am stumped on how to fix. Any Suggestions?
- The only thing I can think of is adding a CR requirement to the creatures killed ... so something like creatures of CR 1/2 or higher yield shadow points in this way.
- The point of the reaper archetype is that it masters the use of battle scars / shadow points. Gaining more than the other archetypes.

Now for the big one. Grim Resistance: The idea behind it was this front line melee class sacrifices the use of medium and heavy armor to use some of it's abilities. (Somewhat similar to the barbarian just with less health and no unarmored defense)
Without the resistance, I feel like they would be getting punished for this and that DEX based builds would outshine STR based ones by a lot because of the low AC.
That being said, I do see your point about it being bad for 1st level and the problems that come with that.

You suggested moving it to 11th level replacing the 2nd attack. I feel like this is a little too late due to what i said above.
Does this also mean there is an issue with the 2nd attack?

1. I guess the easiest way to do it is to make a d6 light sickle and a d8 heavy sickle.

2. Was that restriction there the whole time? I guess I read over that. This restriction makes it fine, I think, except for the fact that it's hard to measure whether someone is "in combat". Maybe have a look at the barbarian's rage-ending clause for inspiration.

3. I would probably say that the creature's CR must be no lower than 1/4 your Envoy level. That prevents abuse at later levels as well.

Grim Resistance: Light armour isn't worse than medium or heavy if you actually invest in Dex. You lose out on 1 AC in return for having higher Dex saves and higher initiative. So giving resistance in return for having only light armour proficiency doesn't make any sense, unless, like the barbarian, you're forced to make a strength build. It's true that the scythe-wielding version of this class is worse due to Str-dependance, but adding resistance doesn't fix that problem, it just elevates the playing field and makes the difference look smaller by comparison.

And yes, I talked about the third attack at the top of the post. But I suggest you get a second opinion on that.

Eliecc
2016-09-12, 01:25 AM
1. I guess the easiest way to do it is to make a d6 light sickle and a d8 heavy sickle.

2. Was that restriction there the whole time? I guess I read over that. This restriction makes it fine, I think, except for the fact that it's hard to measure whether someone is "in combat". Maybe have a look at the barbarian's rage-ending clause for inspiration.

3. I would probably say that the creature's CR must be no lower than 1/4 your Envoy level. That prevents abuse at later levels as well.

Grim Resistance: Light armour isn't worse than medium or heavy if you actually invest in Dex. You lose out on 1 AC in return for having higher Dex saves and higher initiative. So giving resistance in return for having only light armour proficiency doesn't make any sense, unless, like the barbarian, you're forced to make a strength build. It's true that the scythe-wielding version of this class is worse due to Str-dependance, but adding resistance doesn't fix that problem, it just elevates the playing field and makes the difference look smaller by comparison.

And yes, I talked about the third attack at the top of the post. But I suggest you get a second opinion on that.

1. Added the new sickle with a d6 damage and the light property

2. Yes it was. I considered in combat to be when you are still in initiative order. Once that breaks you are "out of combat". However I can see that being misinterpreted as you have pointed out, and have changed it for the following:
" These shadow points disappear if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then."
Thank you Barbarian.

3. I do think it's a valid idea. but I can see it getting tedious in combat, always asking the DM if what you are killing is of the appropriate CR. I'll look into this a bit more before making a change to the skill.

I see what you mean. Maybe if I move the Grim Resistance to the reaper / warden archetypes instead of gaining the resistance as part of the base class?

And I guess somehow I completely missed what you said about the extra attack (2) ... how silly of me.
I'll try and think of something to replace it.

Eliecc
2016-09-12, 05:43 AM
I have made the following changes:

- Moved Grim Resistance to 3rd level.
- Removed the 11th level ability Extra Attack (2)
- Moved Growing shadows (4) from 13th level to 11th. (This evens out the growing shadows improvements a bit more)
- Created the 13th level ability: Dreadful Presence.

Dreadful Presence
Once you have reached 13th level you can exert your presence as an action. Each creature of the your choice within 30 feet must make a wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A Creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of its turns, ending the effect on itself with a success. If a creature’s saving throw is a success or the effect end for it, the creature is immune to the envoy’s Dreadful Presence for the next 24 hours.
Save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your constitution modifier.
You can use this feature twice between long rests.

- I have altered Shadow Harvest to read the following:
At 3rd level when you take this path, you gain the ability to draw out the shadows from the deaths of nearby creatures. When a creature posing a meaningful threat to you or your allies within 10 feet is reduced to 0 hit points, the reaper gains a shadow point. You can only gain shadow points in this way once per round.

I hope that this solves the "bag of rats" debate for this ability without overcomplicating the mechanics of it. I would also hope that any DM would put a stop to that kind of behaviour.

Thoughts on these changes?

Lalliman
2016-09-12, 03:21 PM
Seems like a fair fix on Shadow Harvest. Overall the class looks more reasonable now. I still think Grim Resistance is going to be a problem, but you should probably just playtest at this point to find out.

Eliecc
2016-09-12, 09:31 PM
Seems like a fair fix on Shadow Harvest. Overall the class looks more reasonable now. I still think Grim Resistance is going to be a problem, but you should probably just playtest at this point to find out.

Thanks for all of your help. I'll definitely watch out for Grim Resistance when I playtest it.

Eliecc
2016-09-13, 01:34 AM
Was discussing the Grim Resistance with a friend and we decided that this might be better: Once again using barbarian as an inspiration.

At 3rd level you can unlock your inner darkness as a bonus action and use it as a shield. For 1 minute while not wearing medium or heavy armor you gain resistance to Necrotic; Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning from non magical weapons. You can use this feature twice between long rests. Starting at 9th level this increases to 3 uses and 4 uses starting at 14th level.

Does this work?

Maybe at 17th level or something it becomes a permanent bonus.

Lalliman
2016-09-13, 01:00 PM
Much better! I think you could afford to make the necrotic resistance permanent right away (though preferably not at level 1), since that's a niche type anyways, and it's so thematic. But that's your call.

Sariel Vailo
2016-09-13, 01:41 PM
And if they're an aasimar it's kinda changed isn't it. If they already have necrotic and radiant resistance.

Eliecc
2016-09-18, 08:36 AM
So far i've play tested a level 15 Reaper archetype. I have made a few alterations to some of the battle scars clarifying wording and reducing some of their damage outputs.

I made an addition to Grim Resistance:
At 14th level you gain 4 uses and your resistance now also covers damage from magical weapons.
- This change was made because most monsters at the higher levels of gameplay have magic weapons, and I still wanted the resistance to be useful.

I have also made the following change to the reaper ability shadow harvest:

At 3rd level when you take this path, you gain the ability to draw out the shadows from the deaths of nearby creatures. When a creature posing a meaningful threat to you or your allies within 10 feet is reduced to 0 hit points, the reaper gains a shadow point. You can only gain shadow points in this way once per round.

At 3rd level when you take this path, you gain the ability to draw out the shadows from creatures you hit. The first time you successfully land an attack or spell on an opponent during your turn, you gain 2 shadow points instead of 1.

Gaining a shadow point from a creatures death didn't really come into play, and since I had restricted it to once per round, we decided to simplify the ability.

Next I will probably try the warden, followed by the stalker.

One thing I am hoping to gauge further is the acquisition of shadow points. The reaper was able to perform decent thanks to its additional shadow points per round. (That being said my reaper never made it above 6 shadow points.)
While I'm not so worried about the stalker, as it has spells to supplement it and reduce the focus on battle scars. The warden may have a problem with this and end up starved for shadow points.

I guess we shall see when I play test a bit more.

I'm still open to any suggestions or improvements people have to offer.