Are Sorcerer truly Flexible Spellcasters??

[Carlos Barreto]

https://wanderingmonsterstudios.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/dnd_next_sorcerer_wizard.jpg?w=700

SHORT ANSWER: Sure! They have a class feature called Flexible Spellcasting.
LONG ANSWER: Well... sort of that... terribly, in a very screwed way... Where shall we begin?

Born in the 3rd edition, Sorcerers were trully flexible casters. They new few spells when compared to Wizards, but that was OK because not only they had more spellslots (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sorcerer) than Wizards (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wizard), but they also didn't have to prepare spells predictively as Wizards, struggling to decide how many Fireballs, Hastes or whatever spells they should prepare for that day from their large grimoire. At the end of the day, I think the Wizard Vs Sorcerer dilemma was balanced. At the cost of versatility, Sorcerers were spontaneous spellcasters, able to cast spells on the fly without having to worry about daily hard calls. Simple and fun.

Well, those days are gone. Now in 5e, all the casters are spontaneous spellcasters. Wizards don't need to worry anymore and try to guess if they need more the spell A than the spell B of the same slot; they can prepare both and use them on the fly, just like Sorcerers use to do it in the past.

Well, I just loved that because I really, really hated this kind of premonition required ability of the AD&D/D&D 3.0~3.5 Wizards. On the other hand, by doing that, it's clear that 5e developers gave every spellcater the flexibility that was once owned by the Sorcerers in a time when they were the only spontaneous casters they used to be (maybe we could mention some few exceptions, but that were exceptions, not the rule).

Also, Sorcerers don't have more spellslots than Wizards anymore, as it used to be. All the "primary casters" has the same, uniform number of spellslots.

And as a special note, not only Sorcerers lost their familiar class feature (which now is a spell for many characters), but now Wizards can also use their nifty grimoire to cast spells as rituals (including the Find Familiar spell). Try to do the same with a Sorcerer (hint: you'll not only spend a feat; you're going MAD).

Ah, I was almost forgetting to say that now there're also many Wizard spells that Sorcerers can't take anymore.

So after being stripped off their main benefits, what was left for the 5e Sorcerers after all? The answer lies upon two things: Metamagics and Flexible Casting.

Metamagics are good. But I wonder: Are they good enough? Some few metamagics are really awesome. Others are ok. Most are just meh; it's not that they are useless, but they are so situational that it's just not worthy to spend a Metamagic option with them. In the end, it seems that all sorcerers (or at least many of them) will pick the same Metamagic options (but that's another subject, not the focus here).

Ok, so now we have the Flexible Casting feature. When someone put their eyes for the first time at this class feature, it's ridiculously easy to realize that this class feature doesn't turn Sorcerers into the flexible casters that they are - at least conceptually - since their original design. It's a sort of last resort, emergency only feature, because in the end, you will cast less spells than you normally would. The kind of thing that it's a trap, unless you are trully desperate.

SO I WONDER:

Why the developers did that way, giving the Sorcerers a pseudo-flexibility that works most of the time as a trap, screwing the Sorcerer in the process as if they weren't screwed enough? What was so awfully horrible about the idea of giving Sorcerers a fair flexibility?

Why the developers didn't make the Spell Point system (DMG 288-289) the standard Sorcerer magic system? This system is all about flexibility, a truly flexible spellcasting system without any kind of waste designed to screw you.

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??? :furious:

Am I the only one to be pissed off about all this? Am I missing something?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not using the spell points is easy to explain-- simplicity. 5e is all about unified design mechanics.

[ruy343]

Um... I get that you're angry, but my players have never felt that sorcerers are gimped at all. In fact, I have a player who regularly plays Sorcerers over wizards because he likes them so much.

Why? Sorcery points. See, at higher levels, your level one slots are pretty much useless to you - what you really want is more level 3-5 slots, which can actually do some damage or accomplish the tasks you want (eg: dispel magic, counterspell, or fireball). At the end of the day, the wizard gets a set amount of possible higher-level slots, while the sorcerer can really mix things up, allowing them to trade in their useless, low-level spots and replace them with higher level spells.

My friend who plays a sorcerer will often drop all but one or two level one spells known, in favor of learning more high-level spells, which they are able to cast more frequently. It really does work out in his favor. Perhaps another look at how those abilities interact might be beneficial for you.

[DragonSorcererX]

The thing of the sorcerer is not the flexibility and stuff like that, it is because the Sorcerer is awesome, why?

- Charisma is your spellcasting ability, you draw your power from how awesome you are (different from the Bard who draws his power from musical bullsh*t and the Warlock who gains his power from giving his as* or his soul or whatever the patron wants)!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You may draw your power from the Elemental Air...

(My goal is just to write Dragon on my character sheet as much times as possible!)

[Reosoul]

The thing of the sorcerer is not the flexibility and stuff like that, it is because the Sorcerer is awesome, why?

- Charisma is your spellcasting ability, you draw your power from how awesome you are (different from the Bard who draws his power from musical bullsh*t and the Warlock who gains his power from giving his as* or his soul or whatever the patron wants)!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You may draw your power from the Elemental Air...

(My goal is just to write Dragon on my character sheet as much times as possible!)

While I understand this is more fluff than anything else, even this seems wrong to me. Sorcerers kind of stumble into power by accident or heritage, not even always in control of it. Control is often considered next to power, and to lack control is to hardly be a master over anything.

Wizards alone use their intelligence to master magic. They work, remember, puzzle out the riddles of the universe and bring them to bear with the strength of their mind and control them utterly.

Clerics, Warlocks, and sometimes Paladins, receive their magic through trade or devotion. Druids share a bond with the land, much like a cleric to a deity. Bards pick up tricks and sometimes, sometimes pull off magic they shouldn't be able to, but they're little different from Sorcerons who fumble into an unsteady knowledge of the arcane.

Nay. Wizards are the true masters of magic. Begone with your propaganda.

[JumboWheat01]

As Kryx once said, it's Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Plains. Wizards get the best toys.

[Pex]

Um... I get that you're angry, but my players have never felt that sorcerers are gimped at all. In fact, I have a player who regularly plays Sorcerers over wizards because he likes them so much.

Why? Sorcery points. See, at higher levels, your level one slots are pretty much useless to you - what you really want is more level 3-5 slots, which can actually do some damage or accomplish the tasks you want (eg: dispel magic, counterspell, or fireball). At the end of the day, the wizard gets a set amount of possible higher-level slots, while the sorcerer can really mix things up, allowing them to trade in their useless, low-level spots and replace them with higher level spells.

My friend who plays a sorcerer will often drop all but one or two level one spells known, in favor of learning more high-level spells, which they are able to cast more frequently. It really does work out in his favor. Perhaps another look at how those abilities interact might be beneficial for you.

Converting all your 1st and 2nd level slots gives you 10 points. That nets you 1) two 3rd level slots 2) A 4th level slot and 4 points for metamagic 3) A 5th level slot and 3 points for metamagic. I know you said spells known and not spell slots, but going with theme of not bothering with 1st and 2nd level spells, this trade-off looks quite sub par to me. With personal bias, not that every Sorcerer would necessarily know them, for me I would not want to give up access to Shield and Misty Step because I converted.

I agree with the premise. Flexible Casting is useless except for emergencies or you choose to ignore a class feature (metamagic or spell slots). That emergency by its nature will mean you'll be glad you can do it when you need to, but I think it's too rare an occasion to base a class feature on.

Given how 5E spells work metamagic is useful.

[PeteNutButter]

A pure sorcerer is generally weaker than a wizard, just straight up. The difference isn't huge, but it is there. A wizard can prepare more spells than a sorcerer even knows, and then potentially change them all the next day with different ones from his book, whilst the sorcerer knows those same ones. Not only is this counter intuitive, it makes for horrible game balance.

A class with a higher variety of options should have to pick fewer of them at any given time than a class that is stuck with whatever it chose on level up. Basically, either the sorcerer needs more spells known, or the wizard needs less prepared.

In practice the main point of sorcerer in 5e has become to MC into, to use metamagic with other classes. That is a good sign of design flaw IMO.

[DivisibleByZero]

The strength of sorcerer isn't in his variety of spells known, it's in his variety of uses for those spells.
He potentially has 2 or 3 or 4 ways to use every spell he knows instead of having that on a 1 for 1 basis like the wizard.
Yes, most of them will be used the same way that the wizard uses them, but the fact that those other options exist at all is where the sorcerer gains his flexibility.

If you give him his Cha mod in extra spells known (and allow him to swap those out upon level up just like his other spells) then he no longer feels lacking in that area (and is only a few behind the wizard overall).

[TheUser]

A pure sorcerer is generally weaker than a wizard, just straight up. The difference isn't huge, but it is there. A wizard can prepare more spells than a sorcerer even knows, and then potentially change them all the next day with different ones from his book, whilst the sorcerer knows those same ones. Not only is this counter intuitive, it makes for horrible game balance.

A class with a higher variety of options should have to pick fewer of them at any given time than a class that is stuck with whatever it chose on level up. Basically, either the sorcerer needs more spells known, or the wizard needs less prepared.

In practice the main point of sorcerer in 5e has become to MC into, to use metamagic with other classes. That is a good sign of design flaw IMO.

I think you're missing the point. Spell slots convert poorly into sorcery points (a level 3 spell slot costs 5 points to create but only converts into 3 if you burn it); the best way to acquire more sorcery points for metamagic and to get access to higher level spells is through putting more levels into sorcerer.

OP What you should take away from this is that while Wizards are very strong generalists with access to lots of spells, sorcerers can pick a niche and outdo a wizard in that one/two area(s) of expertise

You should probably read this guide:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2icEdZczJWZWpfbGM/view?usp=sharing

If you don't feel up to it just read below. The crux of what defines Sorcerers is metamagics, and there are 5 in particular that break magic for sorcerers. Wizards can not do what I describe below or if they can (like twin enchantment spells) is limited to a singular school of magic and isn't as gamebreakingly strong.

The most overlooked metamagic is Subtle spell.
No somatic or verbal components means a lot of things.
1) if you're restrained or buried or silenced or any other type of measure someone might use to keep you from casting, so long as you have an arcane focus or a material pouch (sewn into your robes for instance) you'll be able to cast.
2) you can cast directly in front of someone and unless there is a ray or projectile they will be none the wiser. It is truly the god-tier metamagic. Suggestion, Hold Person, Detect Thoughts. Literally think of any type of social magic you wish you could just cast in a room full of people and now you can!
3) you cannot be counterspelled if you use subtle spell. Without any visual or auditory cues betraying a casting of a spell it is impossible for an enemy caster to key in on you and counter spell you. This will put you at the top of the pecking order for casters. You can counterspell other casters and they cannot counter spell you (including your counterspells).
What this means is that if you get misty step and/or dimension door, killing your character becomes a tricky ordeal. There is very little that can stop you from fleeing a fight if things start to get hairy where as other casters can be countered or bound and gagged/silenced to stop their retreat.


The second amazing and almost as overlooked metamagic is Careful Spell.
Most people mistakenly compare this to an Invoker wizard's ability to cast evocation magic and leave allies unharmed. While careful spell only guarantee's saves (not eliminate damage) unlike the invoker feature it lets you use any type of magic, not just evocation. Persistent save spells that only have a drawback of harming allies become amazing. Examples include but are not limited to, grease, web, stinking cloud(*gurgle*), fear, hypnotic pattern, reverse gravity, earthquake, the list goes on.
This is a nigh omnipotent level of battlefield control that a wizard can only dream of acquiring.


Twin Spell speaks for itself. Double polymorph, double greater invisibility, double dominate person, double haste, double crown of madness... Honestly if you want to buff/support your team, this is the way to do it.


Quicken Spell breaks the action economy in a very distinct way. Normally spells that require the use of a standard action cripple you from using your action to cast spells. Not with this bad boy! Crown of Madness is just the first to let you do this. By level 11 the list expands to include telekinesis, eyebite and SUNBEAM. Sunbeam can even be cast with a bonus action and then use the standard action as part of the spell to deal it's damage again. By level 11 even the ability to to spend 2 sorcery points to add a cantrips worth of damage to your round is great (especially with dragon sorcs). Level 11 Sorcerer in two rounds can do bonus action Sunbeam into standard action channel for 12d8 radiant damage (can be empowered). And then the next round bonus action a fireball and still use their standard action for another 8d6 fire + 6d8 radiant damage.

That's an AoE of 18d8 + 8d6 in two rounds. (Average 109 damage without any Empower).

Again at level 11 Wizards can't compete with that kind of damage.

Empower spell I shouldn't even have to explain why it's good. Sure Invoker Overchannel is stronger, but it's usable once per day and then it starts killing you. Empower costs 1 sorcery point and keeps your damage consistently high; you don't feel bad for flubbing a damage roll because you can just re-roll it.

The key is that you can't do it all. You have to pick a role and then pick metamagic and spells to fill this role. As you get higher level you can fill maybe two roles. If you spread yourself too thin and try to play like a wizard, you'll do poorly because you're not a wizard.

[Carlos Barreto]

Not using the spell points is easy to explain-- simplicity. 5e is all about unified design mechanics.

I'm not so sure about that. Warlocks has a unique spellcasting system, even if they still use slots. And Monks of the Way of the Four Elements has a spellcasting similar to the Spell Points (but they use Ki instead, with a shorter pool that replenish at short rest).

That said, I find hard to believe that saying "My character has X Spell Points. I'm casting Fireball, so I'll subtract 5 Spell Points from my pool" is something that would mess with the simplicity of 5e.


Um... I get that you're angry, but my players have never felt that sorcerers are gimped at all. In fact, I have a player who regularly plays Sorcerers over wizards because he likes them so much.

That's completely fine! One can like a given class for many reasons. That doesn't change the fact that the class has lost a lot of things (as mentioned in the original post) and gained too little to compensate.


Why? Sorcery points. See, at higher levels, your level one slots are pretty much useless to you

I completely disagree with this statement. I disagree with it in so many levels that I just can't find enough ways to express that (specially because english is not my main language, as you can realise).

The wonderful Shield spell (http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Shield) will keep your level one slots busy from level 1 to 20 and beyond. By the time you will be fighting your Epic Boons, Shield will still being useful.

The same could be said about the 2nd spell slots. Misty Step (http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Misty_Step) is the spell name that comes to my mind.


At the end of the day, the wizard gets a set amount of possible higher-level slots, while the sorcerer can really mix things up, allowing them to trade in their useless, low-level spots and replace them with higher level spells.

Using a system that was designed to make them cast less than they normally would be capable. It's just a last resort, emergency only feature that doesn't make them truly flexible caster, as I took some time to explain in the first post.


The thing of the sorcerer is not the flexibility and stuff like that, it is because the Sorcerer is awesome, why?

- Charisma is your spellcasting ability, you draw your power from how awesome you are (different from the Bard who draws his power from musical bullsh*t and the Warlock who gains his power from giving his as* or his soul or whatever the patron wants)!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You draw your power from your DRAGON blood!!!!
- You may draw your power from the Elemental Air...

(My goal is just to write Dragon on my character sheet as much times as possible!)

Way of the Four Elements are awesome too, fluff wise.

In any case, after all the things I said in my first post, I still believe that flexibility is a Sorcerer Trademark since its origins in the 3e till the 5e.


As Kryx once said, it's Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Plains. Wizards get the best toys.

Well... Perhaps that's not just a mere joke.


The strength of sorcerer isn't in his variety of spells known, it's in his variety of uses for those spells.
He potentially has 2 or 3 or 4 ways to use every spell he knows instead of having that on a 1 for 1 basis like the wizard.
Yes, most of them will be used the same way that the wizard uses them, but the fact that those other options exist at all is where the sorcerer gains his flexibility.

You're talking about the Metamagics, right?

If that's the case, as I said in my original post, the Metamagics are 1 out of 2 features that makes Sorcerers what they are. Metamagics are good, but is that so good that it justifies the crippled Flexible Spellcasting of their?

The Fact is: Most of the time, Sorcerers will be using their spells slots in the same way that Wizards will be using their spell slots, because the conversion rate sucks so bad that they will lose spellcasting capability in the process when they use it, making it just an emergency exit.

My argument here is: Sorcerers used to be truly flexible casters before, thanks to their spontaneous spellcasting. Now that everybody has one of the Sorcerer previous toys - the spontaneous spellcasting - I think it wouldn't hurt to let Sorcerers being flexible casters in a way that doesn't punish them when they try to do that, specially when there's a variant rule that allows every caster in the game (with the exception of Warlocks and Elemental Monks) to be far more flexible in a way that the Sorcerer can not even dream about, considering the standard rules.

Do you understand what I mean? That's why I made the questions in the beginning of this thread.


If you give him his Cha mod in extra spells known (and allow him to swap those out upon level up just like his other spells) then he no longer feels lacking in that area (and is only a few behind the wizard overall).

They will only end up having some few more spells, still less than the Wizard prepared spells, something that, as stated in this thread, can change completely from a day to another, thanks to the spellbook (another goody that Wizards enjoy, something that not only allows them such tremendous feat of versatility, but also allow them to cast spells ritually).

What bother me is not really the fact that Sorcerers have less spells than Wizards. What is really frustrating is that Sorcerers aren't flexible casters - even if they have a class feature with that name - for the reasons stated clearly in this thread.


I think you're missing the point. Spell slots convert poorly into sorcery points (a level 3 spell slot costs 5 points to create but only converts into 3 if you burn it)

Indeed. That is, in fact, the source of this discussion. If it wasn't like that, than I would have no reason to complain about the Sorcerer's Flexibility. They would be no more bounded to their slots, using their mystical energies as necessary instead of wasting that same energy in the process, as you exemplefly.


OP What you should take away from this is that while Wizards are very strong generalists with access to lots of spells, sorcerers can pick a niche and outdo a wizard in that one/two area(s) of expertise

You should probably read this guide:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2icEdZczJWZWpfbGM/view?usp=sharing

Thank you for the guide. I feel it's very amusing to open the given guide and find in the first page the following advice:

https://s15.postimg.org/um9rsnryz/Sorcerers_and_Spell_Points.jpg

Well, that brings us to the point that I presented here in the beginning: The Spell Points system feels like it should be the standard Sorcerer casting system because it make sorcerers flexible.

And as I said many times here, flexibility seems to be the Sorcerer's trademark since it's first days in the 3e. That's my central argument here.


The crux of what defines Sorcerers is metamagics

It's basically the only really good thing that the Sorcerers really have, since it doesn't have a in-built system designed to screw Sorcerers when they use Metamagics, like they do with the Flexible Spellcasting.

So basically the point is: Sorcerers have lost so much from the previous editions (as I explained here in details). Are Metamagics good enough to compensate all of their losts? I don't feel like the answer is "Yes".


The most overlooked metamagic is Subtle spell.
No somatic or verbal components means a lot of things.
1) if you're restrained or buried or silenced or any other type of measure someone might use to keep you from casting, so long as you have an arcane focus or a material pouch (sewn into your robes for instance) you'll be able to cast.
2) you can cast directly in front of someone and unless there is a ray or projectile they will be none the wiser. It is truly the god-tier metamagic. Suggestion, Hold Person, Detect Thoughts. Literally think of any type of social magic you wish you could just cast in a room full of people and now you can!

To me, sounds too "Meh", as I said in my first post.
The first example is just too situational, unless the DM has some kind of fetish to tie up your sorcerer constantly.
The second example is better, but is still highly situational. Does it worth one of your 4 (supposing you reach level 17) precious Metamagic options? I think the answer is no because there're better options that will see usage more often.


3) you cannot be counterspelled if you use subtle spell. Without any visual or auditory cues betraying a casting of a spell it is impossible for an enemy caster to key in on you and counter spell you. This will put you at the top of the pecking order for casters. You can counterspell other casters and they cannot counter spell you (including your counterspells).

That sounds as a houserule and therefore subject to DMs approval. Can you provide any official source of information that confirms that this claiming?


What this means is that if you get misty step and/or dimension door, killing your character becomes a tricky ordeal. There is very little that can stop you from fleeing a fight if things start to get hairy where as other casters can be countered or bound and gagged/silenced to stop their retreat.

Or perhaps the class could be better (in the way I've been talking till now) in order to allow you to make harder for things get hairy.


The second amazing and almost as overlooked metamagic is Careful Spell.
Most people mistakenly compare this to an Invoker wizard's ability to cast evocation magic and leave allies unharmed. While careful spell only guarantee's saves (not eliminate damage) unlike the invoker feature it lets you use any type of magic, not just evocation. Persistent save spells that only have a drawback of harming allies become amazing. Examples include but are not limited to, grease, web, stinking cloud(*gurgle*), fear, hypnotic pattern, reverse gravity, earthquake, the list goes on.
This is a nigh omnipotent level of battlefield control that a wizard can only dream of acquiring.

Considering that Sorcerers frequently are labeled as the "Blaster class" and Wizards are labeled as the "Versatile problem-solver casters", I would expect to be exactly the reverse of that.

I find profoundly sad to realise that Wizards are not only far more versatile than Sorcerers (which would be OK), but they are also better Blasters than Sorcerers if they choose to be.

Hell, the Careful Spell Metamagic could works just like the Sculpt Spells (a feature that Evocation Wizards receives at the level TWO, one level earlier than the Sorcerers have the chance to pick any Metamagic! Goddamn!), allowing you to not harm your allies (zero damage, not half) as well as to work with non-evocation schools of magic.

Why??? Because unlike the Wizard's Sculpt Spell, it does cost a Spell Point!!. So while Wizards can use Sculpt Spell all the day (provide they have the spells), Sorcerers can use the Careful Spell only for a limited number of times, using a resource that competes with other usages.

So, again: Why not to make the Careful Spell to work a little better than the Sculpt Spell (working like the later, but for all schools of magic) since it costs a precious daily resource?

:smallfrown:


Twin Spell speaks for itself. Double polymorph, double greater invisibility, double dominate person, double haste, double crown of madness... Honestly if you want to buff/support your team, this is the way to do it.


Quicken Spell breaks the action economy in a very distinct way. Normally spells that require the use of a standard action cripple you from using your action to cast spells. Not with this bad boy! Crown of Madness is just the first to let you do this. By level 11 the list expands to include telekinesis, eyebite and SUNBEAM. Sunbeam can even be cast with a bonus action and then use the standard action as part of the spell to deal it's damage again. By level 11 even the ability to to spend 2 sorcery points to add a cantrips worth of damage to your round is great (especially with dragon sorcs). Level 11 Sorcerer in two rounds can do bonus action Sunbeam into standard action channel for 12d8 radiant damage (can be empowered). And then the next round bonus action a fireball and still use their standard action for another 8d6 fire + 6d8 radiant damage.

That's an AoE of 18d8 + 8d6 in two rounds. (Average 109 damage without any Empower).

Again at level 11 Wizards can't compete with that kind of damage.

Empower spell I shouldn't even have to explain why it's good. Sure Invoker Overchannel is stronger, but it's usable once per day and then it starts killing you. Empower costs 1 sorcery point and keeps your damage consistently high; you don't feel bad for flubbing a damage roll because you can just re-roll it.

As I said in my first post, there're some few Metamagic options that are really awesome. That's true to the point that I believe that almost all Sorcerers will take the same options in the end.

The two Metamagic options that I like more are Quicken Spell (who doesn't?) and Empowered Spell and I usually use them together. That's because A) I'm playing a Fighter 1/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 6 gish character, so I like to make two attacks with GWM and using a Quickened Empowered spell.

Seriously, that's really, really, really cool. But that begs the question one more time: Are Metamagics good enough to the point that it's basically the only decent class feature of the Sorcerers, after all the things that Sorcerers have lost from the 3.5e to the 5e?

I don't think so.


The key is that you can't do it all. You have to pick a role and then pick metamagic and spells to fill this role. As you get higher level you can fill maybe two roles. If you spread yourself too thin and try to play like a wizard, you'll do poorly because you're not a wizard.

I don't want to play like Wizards. Wizards has tons of versatility.
I just wish I could play a truly flexible spellcaster, as I have been saying through out this topic.

[Kryx]

As Kryx once said, it's Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Plains. Wizards get the best toys.
:D it's gaining in popularity! It's totally true though, in this edition and every one since 3.0.

If you're interested take a look at my signature that reworks the sorcerer to give it an identity without changing too much.

I looked into spell points, but after reading some threads found the balance to be problematic. See http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?414714-Spell-Point-Variant-in-Play

Plus points feels like it matches psionics better.

[MeeposFire]

Sorcerers were a class essentially to try a new game mechanic in 3e. Sadly with that mechanical difference mostly eliminated the sorcerer from really needing to exist but since it was somewhat popular they decided to make a go with it. IN order to make the class seem relevant they gave it metamagic (which before was actually better with a wizard than a sorc but sorcs needed something. Even with that though they are noticeably lacking compared to wizards in flexibility outside of niche situations. However due to the power of their spell casting they are certainly still more than effective and it really is only when you compare them to other full casters where you might get annoyed.

I personally really like this spell slot version of psion manifesting that they went with. I think they could ahve done it with the sorc but I think some people would have been unhappy because they fell that sorc casting has to be somehow mechanically distinct from wizard casting in order for it to be a sorc.

[Strill]

I agree completely, and I've been using Spell Points specifically for Sorcerers for quite a while.


I looked into spell points, but after reading some threads found the balance to be problematic. See http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?414714-Spell-Point-Variant-in-Play.

Eeh. I don't agree. If you're going full overkill on using only highest-level spells, that's your choice, and it's certainly not the optimal one. There's plenty of powerful low-level spells like Web, Hypnotic Pattern, or Sleep. A big part of playing a caster is knowing how to pace yourself and use only what resources are necessary.

If all you care about is blasting then yeah, you'll probably use nothing but Fireball. That's not a problem with the Spell Point system, it's a problem with Fireball. The devs balanced Fireball as a 5th-level spell, then put it at 3rd level. You'd probably just keep using Fireball, even when you have higher level spell slots.

[Kryx]

Eeh. I don't agree. If you're going full overkill on using only highest-level spells, that's your choice, and it's certainly not the optimal one. There's plenty of powerful low-level spells like Web, Hypnotic Pattern, or Sleep. A big part of playing a caster is knowing how to pace yourself and use only what resources are necessary.
It all depends on pacing. While I think I could probably keep it in check the thread about the adventuring day on the forums shows me that the vast majority of DMs do not do a good job of enforcing the adventuring day which leads to quite the imbalance.

[NNescio]

The Sorcerer is the least flexible full-casting class in 5e by virtue of having a crippling number of spells known. Sorc points are too limited to make up for this deficiency, and in fact pigeonholes the Sorc even more by forcing him to pick spells that can be metamagic'ed well.

The Sorc's key advantages that cannot be duplicated by other classes are basically Twin Spell* for double concentration buffs (the kinds that don't target more creatures when scaled to higher level spell slots, like Haste) and Subtle Spell for social encounters or as a get-out-of-jail card. Quicken mostly only just let you throw out another cantrip (or a minor illusion overlay to block line of sight), but really, the damage output still pales compared to a martial character.

(*Enchanters and Death Domain Clerics can get effective Twinning for Enchantment and Necromancy spells, but those options come in late and are generally more useful for debuffing instead of buffing, because of the school limitation.)

(Bards get to poach extra spells known from other lists, while Warlocks can get extra spells or at-will spells via Invocation, and Ritual Casting via Pact of the Tome. And the less said about the preparation-style spell casters [who get to swap out their spells to meet changing needs] the better.

As for Flexible Casting, well, it's generally crap except for Sorlocks who can preload extra spell slots (which they can later burn for Quickened EB if they want to) by burning Warlock ones (which regenerate on a short rest). In theory they can exploit this before the start of the adventure by not taking a long rest (since the extra spell slot only go away after a long rest as per errata), but most DMs wouldn't let that fly.

Another dirty trick (which straight Sorcs can also use) is to create level 4 spell slots at Sorc Level 6, and level 5 spell slots at Sorc Level 7, for use with spells (especially debuffs) that scale to more targets on higher spell slots. Takes a lot of resources to pull off though, and is generally not worth it at all for damage spells.

You generally can't cast actual Level 4 and 5 spells from those created spell slots (until you learn them normally), in the same sense that multiclass Wizard/Clerics don't get 9ths in both spell lists just because they have Level 9 spell slots. That said, strictly speaking the multiclassing limitation doesn't apply to you, and the ambiguity of the limitation that the spell "also must be of a level for which you have spell slots", so you may be able to learn actual higher level spells if you level up while having the extra higher level spell slot, but that's a can of worms that's best left unopened. This is definitely against RAI and the RAW is shaky as well.

[Unregistered]

I only just started playing a Sorcerer and while I think it'll be fun, I can't help but agree with the OP. Sorcerers are good but they feel lacking when compared to the Wizard or even the Warlock I think, though I haven't played one yet. Or the Bard. And I think the developers realized it well and that's why they built a sub class with more spells known.

[Strill]

It all depends on pacing. While I think I could probably keep it in check the thread about the adventuring day on the forums shows me that the vast majority of DMs do not do a good job of enforcing the adventuring day which leads to quite the imbalance.

Then that's on them for not doing the adventuring day properly. The adventuring day is the single-most important balance rule in the game.

[arrowed]

I've played a 5e sorcerer and really enjoyed it. I built him fairly badly in terms of spells and metamagic choices, but I felt could be pretty reckless with my spells (to the other PCs chagrin :smallamused:) since I could whip up fresh slots at a moment's notice. I didn't need to save my level 3 slots for an emergency lightning bolt, because I could cannibalise my level 2 slots to get another if I needed it. :smallbiggrin:
However, I do feel that the wizard overshadows the sorcerer too much in terms of long-term flexibility. A sorcerer gets x spells and y metamagics, based on their level. They're great at on the spot improvisation, where their metamagics allow them to tailor spells to the situation. A wizard gets level+int mod spells memorised, and can select those spells from a potentially unlimited list. In a particular situation the wizard will likely have more available spells than the sorcerer, but not be able to alter them to be more useful. Minor advantage to the sorcerer. When considering a number of possible situations in the future, the wizard can change any and all spells prepared to suit those tasks with a long rest. The sorcerer can... gain the normal benefits of a long rest. Major advantage to the wizard. Yes, sorcerers are flexible, but only in the short term. In the long term, the simple fact that encounters vary in nature favours the wizard.
I made a thread about making a possible solution to this problem here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499912-Random-homebrew-idea-spells-known-for-all-casters)

[TheUser]

I'm not so sure about that. Warlocks has a unique spellcasting system, even if they still use slots. And Monks of the Way of the Four Elements has a spellcasting similar to the Spell Points (but they use Ki instead, with a shorter pool that replenish at short rest).

That said, I find hard to believe that saying "My character has X Spell Points. I'm casting Fireball, so I'll subtract 5 Spell Points from my pool" is something that would mess with the simplicity of 5e.

In any case, after all the things I said in my first post, I still believe that flexibility is a Sorcerer Trademark since its origins in the 3e till the 5e.

If that's the case, as I said in my original post, the Metamagics are 1 out of 2 features that makes Sorcerers what they are. Metamagics are good, but is that so good that it justifies the crippled Flexible Spellcasting of their?

Do you understand what I mean? That's why I made the questions in the beginning of this thread.

What bother me is not really the fact that Sorcerers have less spells than Wizards. What is really frustrating is that Sorcerers aren't flexible casters - even if they have a class feature with that name - for the reasons stated clearly in this thread.

Indeed. That is, in fact, the source of this discussion. If it wasn't like that, than I would have no reason to complain about the Sorcerer's Flexibility. They would be no more bounded to their slots, using their mystical energies as necessary instead of wasting that same energy in the process, as you exemplefly.

Thank you for the guide. I feel it's very amusing to open the given guide and find in the first page the following advice:

https://s15.postimg.org/um9rsnryz/Sorcerers_and_Spell_Points.jpg

Well, that brings us to the point that I presented here in the beginning: The Spell Points system feels like it should be the standard Sorcerer casting system because it make sorcerers flexible.

And as I said many times here, flexibility seems to be the Sorcerer's trademark since it's first days in the 3e. That's my central argument here.

It's basically the only really good thing that the Sorcerers really have, since it doesn't have a in-built system designed to screw Sorcerers when they use Metamagics, like they do with the Flexible Spellcasting.

So basically the point is: Sorcerers have lost so much from the previous editions (as I explained here in details). Are Metamagics good enough to compensate all of their losts? I don't feel like the answer is "Yes".

I'm glad you feel venerated by the first part of the guide. I wrote it.

I also agree that Spell Points are not complex. It's just HP with spells (way easier than managing slots).

But!

Spell points are a variant for a reason and while I definitely think they are a variant with Sorcerers in mind they will let you spam your higher level spells to break a lot of encounters and I'm very certain that WotC didn't like the way it played when it was baseline for Sorcerers because you will outshine any and all other casters. They also for sure thought it didn't multi-class easily or without raising a lot more questions. How do you ration out spell points? Sorcerer spells only? Does it become -another- seperate form of magic to pool from like warlocks?

I am currently playing a Sorcerer and requested use of Spell Points Variant and my DM's graciously let me use them under the rule that I am not allowed to turn Sorcery Points into Spell points since I already have enough flexibility. Fair enough.

Fully flexible casting is nuts, and making it a sorcerer only option probably felt like a powerspike wizards was unwilling to bestow on Sorcerers after seeing how they performed (but had no problem gutting their spell list while balancing for spell points lol).

I see you are not yet a subtle spell believer:

To me, sounds too "Meh", as I said in my first post.
The first example is just too situational, unless the DM has some kind of fetish to tie up your sorcerer constantly.
The second example is better, but is still highly situational. Does it worth one of your 4 (supposing you reach level 17) precious Metamagic options? I think the answer is no because there're better options that will see usage more often.

If you can't see the power in being able to cast suggestion on someone in a room full of people without anyone being able to tell you charmed them (including the victim) then I can't really do much to argue in it's favor. I'm a huge proponent of this gimmick and it's often broke the social encounter game in our favor.

As for counter spell:

That sounds as a houserule and therefore subject to DMs approval. Can you provide any official source of information that confirms that this claiming?


The prophet, Mark Mearls hath spoken!
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/
Can't see me casting anything? Then you can't counter it bitches!

I currently have subtle spell + empower spell on my level 8 sorc with my RL friend group and my DM let me use the spell points variant. My group is convinced I am god. I can cast any magic I want, whenever I want, and if I don't want people to notice me doing it, they don't. I never flub my damage rolls and with dragon empowered fire spells I'm doing loads of damage. Best of all I'm doing all of my shenanigans off of 9 spells known.

* Level 1: Disguise Self (+ actor feat). With subtle spell I can renew it whenever it expires without anyone noticing (instead of sneaking off every hour conspicuously). Shield to screw over people dumb enough to attack me.

* Level 2: Misty Step which very recently saved my ass with subtle spell (got pulled into a filth pit by an Otyugh where I wouldn't have been able to cast in a liquidy pit of **** while grappled by a tentacle monster), and Scorching Ray (until I hit level 11 and my cantrips do almost the same). And Suggestion, which when combined with disguise self means I'm playing a whole different game from every other character. I'm the master infiltrator.

* Level 3: Fireball and Counter Spell. Counterspell + Subtle spell means I am the king of casters. I can spend a reaction to screw up someone's casting but they can't screw mine up. Fireball with empower has actually been less useful than I thought mostly because I can spend 1 more spell point and just Wall of Fire, which is more precise and keeps doing damage.

* Level 4: Wall of Fire (which is so good with spell points), Greater Invisibility. As stated Wall of Fire has been a boon. Not sure if I need Greater Invis with how useful wall of fire has been (god damn thing obstructs vision!), but I'm banking on helping a friend shine in a combat.

I've been using Wall of Fire, disguise self, and suggestion a whole heck of a lot. And it shows why spell points are a variant option. It makes spell selection so much easier because I don't need to have lower level damage spells to be an effective blaster caster. However this is because I am playing with a group of noobies and if I don't do the damage, nobody will. If I were being paired up with other casters (possibly an invoker wizard?) I would've taken Careful or Twin spell to act as a buffer/support option.


Considering that Sorcerers frequently are labeled as the "Blaster class" and Wizards are labeled as the "Versatile problem-solver casters", I would expect to be exactly the reverse of that.

I find profoundly sad to realise that Wizards are not only far more versatile than Sorcerers (which would be OK), but they are also better Blasters than Sorcerers if they choose to be.

Did you skip my whole empowered/quicken shtick? Empower spell + Dragon Elemental Affinity makes you a -way- better blaster. Sure an Invoker can just cast wherever they want, but who cares, if you're smart about your spells you'll consistently do more damage. They'll never have quicken, and they'll never have empower.


Hell, the Careful Spell Metamagic could works just like the Sculpt Spells (a feature that Evocation Wizards receives at the level TWO, one level earlier than the Sorcerers have the chance to pick any Metamagic! Goddamn!), allowing you to not harm your allies (zero damage, not half) as well as to work with non-evocation schools of magic.

Why??? Because unlike the Wizard's Sculpt Spell, it does cost a Spell Point!!. So while Wizards can use Sculpt Spell all the day (provide they have the spells), Sorcerers can use the Careful Spell only for a limited number of times, using a resource that competes with other usages.

So, again: Why not to make the Careful Spell to work a little better than the Sculpt Spell (working like the later, but for all schools of magic) since it costs a precious daily resource?

:smallfrown:


Because careful spell isn't meant for blasters bro. Stop comparing it like it does. Have you ever seen Careful Spell Stinking Cloud in action? It's literally not fair. The only drawback of the spell is that it harms allies too and you completely negate it's only drawback. Every enemy in the encounter has to roll Con vs your spell DC or not get an action. And that's just one spell! There are loads of other AoE spells that have the same drawback of targeting allies. Broken AF.


As I said in my first post, there're some few Metamagic options that are really awesome. That's true to the point that I believe that almost all Sorcerers will take the same options in the end.

The two Metamagic options that I like more are Quicken Spell (who doesn't?) and Empowered Spell and I usually use them together. That's because A) I'm playing a Fighter 1/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 6 gish character, so I like to make two attacks with GWM and using a Quickened Empowered spell.

You're still locked into a "SORCERERS DO DAMAGE" paradigm because you haven't paired up with people who can do enough damage for you. I took Greater Invis, for instance, so I can use it on our Rogue with Sentinel and have him **** on an encounter. Twin Spell polymorph is...god damnit two giant apes is so funny.


Seriously, that's really, really, really cool. But that begs the question one more time: Are Metamagics good enough to the point that it's basically the only decent class feature of the Sorcerers, after all the things that Sorcerers have lost from the 3.5e to the 5e?

I don't think so.

Because you have no craft. You aren't considering how strong Twin Spell truly is (the community ****ing worships this metamagic) and you don't see the power of careful/subtle spell. Stop looking at Sorcerers as exclusively blasters and maybe you'll see the light.
Read the entire guide homie. You won't regret it.




I don't want to play like Wizards. Wizards has tons of versatility.
I just wish I could play a truly flexible spellcaster, as I have been saying through out this topic.

Then ask for spell points from your DM. Explain how it really liberates your spell list and helps you have fun (this is what I did). The game is about fun. The DM wants you to enjoy yourself. Just try not to outshine everyone if you get them because they should be having fun too.

[Gastronomie]

Are Sorcerer truly Flexible Spellcasters?

No, I don't think so.

Are they underpowered?

No, I don't think so either. The Metamagic options give you access to a lot of interesting abilities, like bestowing disadvantage on the save of a spell (Wizards can't do that, even in dire emergencies where it'll result in a TPK if the opponent suceeds on the save), or casting them as a bonus action, or saving friends within range of the AoE (Evocation Wizards are better with spells like Fireball, but Sorcerers work with spells like Web, Stinking Cloud, and Hypnotic Pattern).

Though they're not as "versatile" as the Wizards with all their large spell lists, spell selection every day, and rituals, Sorcerers can still be better at what they do in certain areas.

[DragonSorcererX]

While I understand this is more fluff than anything else, even this seems wrong to me. Sorcerers kind of stumble into power by accident or heritage, not even always in control of it. Control is often considered next to power, and to lack control is to hardly be a master over anything.

Wizards alone use their intelligence to master magic. They work, remember, puzzle out the riddles of the universe and bring them to bear with the strength of their mind and control them utterly.

Clerics, Warlocks, and sometimes Paladins, receive their magic through trade or devotion. Druids share a bond with the land, much like a cleric to a deity. Bards pick up tricks and sometimes, sometimes pull off magic they shouldn't be able to, but they're little different from Sorcerons who fumble into an unsteady knowledge of the arcane.

Nay. Wizards are the true masters of magic. Begone with your propaganda.

As a DM, Sorcerers are my Mary Sues, if you want to be favored as Patrick Rothfuss is favored by Chris Perkins you just need to play a Metallic Dragonborn Sorcerer...

[PeteNutButter]

Another dirty trick (which straight Sorcs can also use) is to create level 4 spell slots at Sorc Level 6, and level 5 spell slots at Sorc Level 7, for use with spells (especially debuffs) that scale to more targets on higher spell slots. Takes a lot of resources to pull off though, and is generally not worth it at all for damage spells.


For MC you could take Sorc to 7 and warlock 9. Use your points to make more 5th level slots, with the short rest cheese then use 5th level sorcerer slots to cast your 5th level warlock spells. It also works for 4th level slots at sorcerer 6, warlock 7.

[WereRabbitz]

Sorcerer's have a very important role that should never be over looked.

and that's giving Paladin's more smites!

[famousringo]

The Sorcerer is the least flexible full-casting class in 5e by virtue of having a crippling number of spells known. Sorc points are too limited to make up for this deficiency, and in fact pigeonholes the Sorc even more by forcing him to pick spells that can be metamagic'ed well.

I very much agree. Furthermore, nearly all sorcerer class and subclass features effectively burn spell slots. Only the paladin rivals sorcerer in the rate at which she can burn through long rest resources. The difference is that paladin enjoys a powerful suite of at-will and short rest abilities to fall back on after the nova, while sorcerer is stuck with the most limited at-will and short rest abilities in the game.

This is why sorcerer multiclass is so essential. Other classes provide much-needed versatility to climb out of the sorcerer pigeonhole and provide at-will abilities beyond a handful of cantrips.

If I were to fix the class, it wouldn't be with spell points or maybe even spells known, but with an Invocation-like list of at-will or short rest abilities with a focus on primal arcane power.

[Byke]

Sorcerer's have a very important role that should never be over looked.

and that's giving Paladin's more smites!

Sad but true :)


Joking aside I also don't think that Sorcerers are under powered either, but I do think that their could be some room for improvement.

The UE versions of Storm Sorcerer and Favored Soul addresses the spells known issue and they are obviously better versions of the Sorcerer class. (Shadow Sorcerer is cool, but would have been amazing if they would have added a necromantic "domain" spells list.)

Adding 9 additional thematically flavored spells doesn't break Sorcerer or make them OP. It addresses the biggest concerns players have with the class.

My pet peeves for sorcerer

1) Absorb Element - Really WoC how is this not on the Sorcerer spell list..
2) Metamagic - We have limited number of spells slot and limited number of Sorcery points...why limit the choice of metamagic....if they want to make sorcerers flexible and this is the classes defining ability then let them use whatever MM they want. It would allow for so much more "fun"
3) Elemental Affinity - Should be a baseline sorcerer ability and not restricted to a damage type. Give dragon sorcerers something cool to compensate. (Fire is the most prevalent dam type and 1st level of Undying Light does it better)
4) Multi-classing Warlock 2 or 3 just makes to much sense for a Sorcerer. There needs to a better capstone or reason not to multi-class into lock. (Yes this does delay you higher level spells known, but the trade off is worth it)

[WereRabbitz]

Wild magic is really flavor, but Dragon and shadow both give you some very interesting abilities. Your 'Niche' in all of this is your ability to magnify your spells.

Sure you can trade off sorc points for more spells and thats cool sort of like the Warlock/Wizard can recover spells or make certain spells not use spell slots. so that all evens out.

The real source of Sorcerer's power is the Sorcery Points used with Metamagic.

Over looking Metamagic is like playing a Batlemaster fighter and ignoring maneuvers. The kicker is no one can grab a metamagic ability from a feat like they can with fighters so you even have a nice little edge.


All of them are useful be it Careful casting so you worry less about allies being in the way, forced disadvantage saves, rerolling damage, silent casting, extended buffing/debuffing all of them are useful!

I feel people who say the Sorcerer is under powered do not take appropriate advantage of Metamagic properly.

Just my opinion though.


Sorc is a great class for any class for many people to multiclass with or into as well.

[SharkForce]

the problem with sorcerer as a buff/CC class is that variety really is a huge difference there.

i mean, i love careful spell with AoE CC. it's amazing. it really is.

but when i'm looking at building a CC caster, i want options. i want different status conditions, different saving throws targeted, even different targeting options or spell slot options. i want to be able to throw a hold person that can hit 4 targets, or a fear spell, or a hypnotic pattern, or a hold monster spell. (i don't want dominate because the combination of crud duration and extra saving throws every time damage is taken makes it hard to find a time where it's necessary). and then i probably also want suggestion and mass suggestion (mass suggestion is clearly the superior option, and it's almost not even an option to not take it because it's so good, but it's also in a level 6 spell slot... which is less than ideal).

and all that is just wisdom saves. i haven't covered charisma, intelligence, strength, dexterity, or constitution (so there's another 5 spells needed there). i don't have anything that blinds a target (and if you think subtle counterspell makes you destroy other spellcasters, you haven't seen what blindness lets you do to other casters), and there goes another spell (maybe 2 if i want the level 2 spell and the level 6 sunbeam as a backup). i don't have anything to restrain (fortunately, these are likely covered by the strength and dexterity targeting spells). i will never have wall of force (and let's face it, wall of stone is great for making buildings but it doesn't compare to wall of force), i will never have forcecage. my summoning options are extremely limited. and now if i want to add in buffs, i probably want polymorph (sadly, i'll never get true polymorph), greater invisibility, haste, enlarge. another 4 spells needed there.

careful spell is an excellent metamagic... but it's a lot less effective on a sorcerer with 15 spells known than it could be.

[Tanarii]

Flexible spellcasting is really there for 3 reasons:
You need more metamagic points.
You dont need as many low level spell slots, but need more high level ones.
You need more spells and but don't need your metamagic. (In which case it's just Arcane/Natural Recovery)

Mostly, this makes Sorcerers better able to handle short adventuring days with fewer (but more dangerous) battles. They can nuke with heavier (or more metamagiced) spells if needed.

Of course, in theory it also means you could do the opposite, and trade down spell slots. But given that (for example) a level 6 slot will only net you two level 2 slots, that's almost never going to be worth it.

If it helps, just think of it as Arcane/Natural Recovery with an added benefit.

[NNescio]

No, I don't think so either. The Metamagic options give you access to a lot of interesting abilities, like bestowing disadvantage on the save of a spell (Wizards can't do that, even in dire emergencies where it'll result in a TPK if the opponent suceeds on the save), or casting them as a bonus action, or saving friends within range of the AoE (Evocation Wizards are better with spells like Fireball, but Sorcerers work with spells like Web, Stinking Cloud, and Hypnotic Pattern).

Well, Diviners can usually do better with Portent Dice (no save you just suck or lose), and Wizards in general get more spells known (and a better list) which they can use to target every save in the book. The Wizard also gets access to excellent no-save-just-suck spells like Wall of Force (a Wizard exclusive) and Forcecage, both options denied to the Sorcerer (:smallfurious:). So yes, I think Wizards are still better at the save-or-suck game, even non-Diviners.

That said, Careful Spell can be very nasty with certain AoE CC/BFC low level spells (like the ones you mention) when your allies are thick in the fray, and Subtle can let you pull off a CC/BFC without getting Counterspelled or even letting others know you cast a spell at all (if the spell effects are subtle enough).

[SharkForce]

in my opinion, if you trade in your only remotely interesting class feature (metamagics) for an extra spell slot, you must either be extremely desperate (in which case why for the love of all that is holy do you still have sorcerer points if the day was so awful that you have no spell slots left, you should have used your metamagic well before now) or a fool. there is precisely ONE mechanical reason i would ever point anyone in the direction of sorcerer, and that one thing is metamagic. there is no other ability that remotely justifies even looking at the class from a mechanical standpoint (by which i mean, i'm not counting "i want to be a sorcerer and not anything else" in my reasons. not that it isn't a valid reason, but it has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game).

unfortunately, metamagic is both a great blessing and a curse. it is a powerful ability. and because sorcerers revolve around it, they get screwed in pretty much every other area. their class features outside of spellcasting and metamagic are pathetic, and their spellcasting feature is among the worst of the full casters to compensate for metamagic being strong.

so now we're left with the only way to get metamagic being a sorcerer because if they ever give it to anyone else the sorcerer pretty much becomes the worst spellcaster around, but because sorcerers have metamagic they can't have much else.

[NNescio]

in my opinion, if you trade in your only remotely interesting class feature (metamagics) for an extra spell slot, you must either be extremely desperate (in which case why for the love of all that is holy do you still have sorcerer points if the day was so awful that you have no spell slots left, you should have used your metamagic well before now) or a fool. there is precisely ONE mechanical reason i would ever point anyone in the direction of sorcerer, and that one thing is metamagic. there is no other ability that remotely justifies even looking at the class from a mechanical standpoint (by which i mean, i'm not counting "i want to be a sorcerer and not anything else" in my reasons. not that it isn't a valid reason, but it has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game).

unfortunately, metamagic is both a great blessing and a curse. it is a powerful ability. and because sorcerers revolve around it, they get screwed in pretty much every other area. their class features outside of spellcasting and metamagic are pathetic, and their spellcasting feature is among the worst of the full casters to compensate for metamagic being strong.

so now we're left with the only way to get metamagic being a sorcerer because if they ever give it to anyone else the sorcerer pretty much becomes the worst spellcaster around, but because sorcerers have metamagic they can't have much else.

To add insult to injury most Wizards effectively get free metamagic with their chosen school spells, and some Clerics also get free metamagic with certain spells.

Really, personally speaking, unless you want to play the Twin Buffs character, or are playing a social intrigue game with much potential for Subtle Spell, there's not much mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer beyond going Sorlock for an optimized Magical Archer build (which, well, delays your spell progression by 2~3 levels, but hey, that's your niche that other spellcasters can't muscle in!) with a lot of low-level spells and Sorc points to fling around (for Twin Buffs, Careful BFCs, or Subtle Enchantments), or a Sorcadin for vastly-improved Paladin smiting abilities (and the potential to Quicken Hold Person and lay the smack on someone). The Sorlock is basically a squishier Eldritch Knight with far more spellcasting abilities, while the Sorcadin is the King of Smite (in exchange for delaying access to higher-level Paladin class features).

And that's only with somebody else (Wizard, Tomelock, Arcana Cleric with Ritual Casting) covering the primary arcanist role, unless you want to be stuck with a non-optimal statline and burn an ASI/feat on top of that.

And the Bard is still better at social intrigue even without Subtle (and they get to KEEP their spell slots), while Warlocks can compete with at-will Silent Image and Disguise Self.

[MeeposFire]

in my opinion, if you trade in your only remotely interesting class feature (metamagics) for an extra spell slot, you must either be extremely desperate (in which case why for the love of all that is holy do you still have sorcerer points if the day was so awful that you have no spell slots left, you should have used your metamagic well before now) or a fool. there is precisely ONE mechanical reason i would ever point anyone in the direction of sorcerer, and that one thing is metamagic. there is no other ability that remotely justifies even looking at the class from a mechanical standpoint (by which i mean, i'm not counting "i want to be a sorcerer and not anything else" in my reasons. not that it isn't a valid reason, but it has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game).

unfortunately, metamagic is both a great blessing and a curse. it is a powerful ability. and because sorcerers revolve around it, they get screwed in pretty much every other area. their class features outside of spellcasting and metamagic are pathetic, and their spellcasting feature is among the worst of the full casters to compensate for metamagic being strong.

so now we're left with the only way to get metamagic being a sorcerer because if they ever give it to anyone else the sorcerer pretty much becomes the worst spellcaster around, but because sorcerers have metamagic they can't have much else.

I think you have it backwards. I think they tried to make meta magic strong enough to compensate for the spellcasting being weaker. I think this is an important distinction because I think the real problem is that they wanted to make the sorcerer casting mechanically distinct in a "spontaneous" fashion since as we know that is the only reason it existed in its initial form in 3e (the fluff was designed to justify it) and that since they used modified psion casting as the base which is like the sorcerer casting in 3e but even better the sorc gets to be even worse.

[NNescio]

I think you have it backwards. I think they tried to make meta magic strong enough to compensate for the spellcasting being weaker. I think this is an important distinction because I think the real problem is that they wanted to make the sorcerer casting mechanically distinct in a "spontaneous" fashion since as we know that is the only reason it existed in its initial form in 3e (the fluff was designed to justify it) and that since they used modified psion casting as the base which is like the sorcerer casting in 3e but even better the sorc gets to be even worse.

The problem is that the Sorc gets too little Sorc points (unless he go Sorlock) to make it worthwhile, and they get less spell slots compared to the Wizard or Land Druid unless they burn those limited Sorc points in exchange for slots.

Other spellcasters get other abilities to let them contribute without using spell slots, letting them extend their spell slot use for the day. This includes the Wizard and the Land Druid due to Ritual Casting, but not WoTC's red-headed stepchild that is the Sorcerer, who need to spend spell slots to even use their Sorc points. Unless they spend it on a cantrip, of course, but that's hardly a viable option (unless, well, again, they go Sorlock with Agonizing Repelling EB + Quickened EB).

[MeeposFire]

The problem is that the Sorc gets too little Sorc points (unless he go Sorlock) to make it worthwhile, and they get less spell slots compared to the Wizard or Land Druid unless they burn those limited Sorc points in exchange for slots.

Other spellcasters get other abilities to let them contribute without using spell slots, letting them extend their spell slot use for the day. This includes the Wizard and the Land Druid due to Ritual Casting, but not WoTC's red-headed stepchild that is the Sorcerer, who need to spend spell slots to even use their Sorc points. Unless they spend it on a cantrip, of course, but that's hardly a viable option (unless, well, again, they go Sorlock with EB + Quickened EB).

Oh I agree what I was trying to say the conclusion is mostly the same but I think the issue is that WotC felt like they needed to go with this casting to make it "feel" like it was a 3e sorcerer compared to the other casters now that they all get sort of psion casting and that they thought that the other abilities were thematic and powerful enough to compensate for the worse spell casting.

Sharforce came at it the opposite way where they gave them that casting to compensate for meta magic.

The reason why I think the distinction is important is that the actual problem is the casting but I think WotC came at the class using the casting first (meta magic was better for wizards before and spontaneous casting was the whole reason they existed). This makes it hard to fix for WotC because I am not sure they can really fix the problem without changing how they cast or use a giant band aid by giving them a bunch of bonus spells known (which at a certain point really undermines the whole point of the sorc having less spells known though I personally don't mind).

[NNescio]

Oh I agree what I was trying to say the conclusion is mostly the same but I think the issue is that WotC felt like they needed to go with this casting to make it "feel" like it was a 3e sorcerer compared to the other casters now that they all get sort of psion casting and that they thought that the other abilities were thematic and powerful enough to compensate for the worse spell casting.

Sharforce came at it the opposite way where they gave them that casting to compensate for meta magic.

The reason why I think the distinction is important is that the actual problem is the casting but I think WotC came at the class using the casting first (meta magic was better for wizards before and spontaneous casting was the whole reason they existed). This makes it hard to fix for WotC because I am not sure they can really fix the problem without changing how they cast or use a giant band aid by giving them a bunch of bonus spells known (which at a certain point really undermines the whole point of the sorc having less spells known though I personally don't mind).

Unearthed Arcana Favored Soul and Storm Magic mostly fixed the problems of the Sorcerer. Shadow also to some extent, since they get potent spell-likes, even if they have to spend Sorc points to use them (Hound of Ill Omen in particular is lolworthy when combined with remote-sensing spells or with familiars, especially when multiclassed with Chainlock). Unfortunately they took away the bonus spells of Storm when they moved it to SCAG, so now it requires MCing with Tempest Cleric to fix.

(Sure the bonus spells make these Sorcs indisputably better than their PHB brethren, but really, they aren't that unbalanced compared to other non-Sorc classes, so long as they aren't allowed to swap their bonus spells out for other ones, and Shadow Sorc's Hound of Ill Omen shouldn't be allowed to ignore LoE and should have some sort of range limitation. Really, they ought to buff the PHB archetypes instead.)

[SharkForce]

Oh I agree what I was trying to say the conclusion is mostly the same but I think the issue is that WotC felt like they needed to go with this casting to make it "feel" like it was a 3e sorcerer compared to the other casters now that they all get sort of psion casting and that they thought that the other abilities were thematic and powerful enough to compensate for the worse spell casting.

Sharforce came at it the opposite way where they gave them that casting to compensate for meta magic.

The reason why I think the distinction is important is that the actual problem is the casting but I think WotC came at the class using the casting first (meta magic was better for wizards before and spontaneous casting was the whole reason they existed). This makes it hard to fix for WotC because I am not sure they can really fix the problem without changing how they cast or use a giant band aid by giving them a bunch of bonus spells known (which at a certain point really undermines the whole point of the sorc having less spells known though I personally don't mind).

that would make sense if their spellcasting was otherwise about the same as other full casters by default. if that were the case, then i could say that metamagic was there because sorcerers don't have additional abilities to support their spellcasting.

but then we take a look at bard, and hey, not only do they get more base spells known, they can poach several from any list, and they have a ton of useful class features on top of that.

if metamagic was merely supposed to match the extra class features that other full casters have, there is no reason for sorcerers to have a number of key spells not on their list, nor is there a reason for sorcerers to have such a tiny number of spells known.

they may have started from where you're thinking, and gave sorcerers metamagic initially as their extra feature intended to support their spellcasting. but if it was merely to be the equivalent of a wizards arcane recovery and subclass features, and nothing more, then there's no reason to have their spell list and spells known be so thoroughly gutted. at some point, it must have become their intention that metamagic was going to be worth more than all the "extras" the other casters get (which i personally am not even remotely convinced of), and thus sorcerers need to have very few spells known (they have more than rangers, eldritch knights, and arcane tricksters. two of those are 1/3 casters, and the other has spellcasting so bad that i think i've actually seen bard guides talk about their spells - typically in the context of stealing their swift quiver spell and disregarding the rest if the bard wants to be an archer - more than ranger guides) and a cut-down spell list that lacks a number of the most powerful spells from the wizard (which is the closest equivalent list).

so i'm not at all convinced that metamagic is just the extras. it's counting as both the extras *and* a fairly substantial chunk of the base power associated with spellcasting.

[Socratov]

Has anybody considered that it's not the sorcerer but the wizard that's the source of the sorceror sucking?

AS far as spellliksts go, the divine casters and bards are fine compared to the sorcerer. different spell lists that give different options and abilities. No toes stepped on. Sure the sorceror could still benefit from a few spells known handed out to help her out, but other then that fine. Once the Wizard enters the fray it's like sorcerors are relegated to a lower tier. The Wizard can prepare more spells each day then the sorceror gets known. This should be totally the opposite. The fact that the Wizard gets to use a specific kind of metamagic, for free I might add, as part of his subclass, is preposterous. The core reqason to play a sorceror, and they had a comparable or in some cases even improved, free to use ability to the wizard, while the sorc has to pay for them with his precious sorcery points.

Back in 3.5 the sorceror, once past lvl 1 with his (initial) casting and familliar the sorc did not get any new classfeatures. He also gained the next spell levels 1 lvl later then the wizard. The wizard, even got bonus feats. All because the designers feared spontaneous full casting would be too strong and having to fully prepare your slots woudl be too hard to do effectively.

This time, however, the Wizard clearly has the upper han din method of spell selection, has the added bonus of being able to cast rituals from his book (a feature that is better then any version of ritual casting , whic is a feature the sorceror does not even have!) the ability to gain more spells known, some even cheaper then the rest (the shole savant routine). Sure the clerics and druids just know their entire list, but their lists are a lot less destructive and all encompassing. On top of that the wizard has a much better list, more spells, and some absolutely must-haves (wall of force and forcecage anyone?) and have no class specific spells in return, nor the ability to gain other class' spells. In return a very limited list of metamagics to choose a very limited list from (2 at lvl 3, +1 at lvl 10 and +1 at lvl 17).

On top of that the wizard has arcane recovery where s/he can instantanously recover half their characterlevel in spell-levels. Let me illustrate what that means: they can, first as a short rest, but later as an action, buy back slots like a sorceror, but with half the sorc's daily sorcery point pool, buy back slots at a 1 for 1 point per spell level rate.

So considering the advantages the sorceror is supposed to have over the wizard the wizard can be considered a sorceror light, but with more spells known, an equal amount of recovery, a more limited, but in some cases better and in all cases cheaper metamagic.

So, kind of like a diet sorceror, but with added lard. sure, no sugar (quickened, subtle spell metemagic), but with more fat (spell sknown and prepared, arcane recovery, stronger spell list)

[Carlos Barreto]

First, I would like to thank you for the feedback.
However, I feel like some people are really missing the point here.

I started this topic highlighting how Sorcerers used to work in the edition they were born (D&D 3e). Being a kind of "Wizard's cousins", the Sorcerers have less spells than Wizards, meaning that Wizards were more versatile than Sorcerers. On the other hand, Sorcerers were spontaneous spellcasters, meaning that, unlike Wizards, they didn't have to prepare spells ahead of time, trying to predict what kind of spells and how many instances of a given spell they would need. Additionally, Sorcerers have more spell slots than Wizards.

So the Wizard X Sorcerer issue was basically a matter of Versatility X Flexibility. Sounds fair enough to me.

5e changed that, making every spellcaster a spontaneous caster, stripping away one of the Sorcerer's main advantage and giving it to everyone else who can cast spells.

So if there's one quintessential keyword to this topic, that word is:


FLEXIBILITY

I pointed out that 5e Sorcerers have lost many of what made them Sorcerers; they are not the only (or at least one of the few) spontaneous spellcaster anymore, they no long have more spell slots than Wizards and even their familiars are gone. And as if it wasn't enough, their spell list is shorter than Wizard's spelllist, since Wizards have spells that Sorcerers simply don't have!!

And then some people came here, saying:

- But hey!! Sorcerers have Metamagics!! Take a look at what they can do...

Yeah, I know that. After so many losses, what Sorcerers received in exchange were TWO things: Metamagics and Flexible Spellcasting.

The problem is that one of these two features, Flexible Spellcasting, was designed in a way that it punishes you horribly if you really try to be, you know, the sort of Flexible Spellcaster you would normally expect for being a Sorcerer (and hell, even the class feature's name imply that!), because you will cast less spell than you normally would. I can even imagine the following situation:

Player: Damn it! I need to cast a spell, but that's a level 1 spell and I have no more level 1 spell slots!!
DM: Well, cast it as a 2nd level spell. Problem solved!
Player: I can't! This spell has no upcasting. It only works as a level 1 spell!
DM: In that case, use your Bonus action to use 2 Sorcery Point, so you can gain a level 1 spell slot.
Player: I can't. I have no more Spell Points (SP)
DM: Well, in that case, burn a level 2 spell (2 SP) so you can gain a level 1 spell (2 SP)
Player: :smallfrown:

It's basically a feature designed to be used when are desesperated.

So what was left? It seems that the Metamagics are the only good thing that Sorcerers really can rely on (in a way that they won't be screwed if they use it).

And heck, even some of the Metamagics has some parallel with the Wizard's subclass features. Just compare:

(Sorcerer) Careful Spell x Sculpt Spell (Evocation Wizard)
(Sorcerer) Heightened Spell x Portent (Divination Wizard)
(Sorcerer) Empowered Spell x Empowered Evocation (Evocation Wizard)

So again, I ask:

Are Metamagics so good that it's enough to compensate all of their losses?

I have a strong feeling that the anwer is "No". But maybe I'm missing something.

And I don't think that Sorcerers need more spells, because more spells just increase theyr versatility. I think they need more flexibility, not versatility!


I looked into spell points, but after reading some threads found the balance to be problematic. See http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?414714-Spell-Point-Variant-in-Play

Ok. I read the topic.
The main concern was that a spellcaster could use higher spell slots more often than they could with the standard spell slot system.

Well, isn't that exactly the whole meaning of the idea of flexibility? The ability to chose to cast something ranging from many level 1 spells (much more than they could normally do) to some few higher level spells (idem).

So basically the criticism were something like: "Well, I don't like the Spell Points variant rule because I don't like the versatility it brings".

Well... Wasn't that described (as if it wasn't already clear) in the rule's description?


As for Flexible Casting, well, it's generally crap except for Sorlocks who can preload extra spell slots (which they can later burn for Quickened EB if they want to) by burning Warlock ones (which regenerate on a short rest)

Sad, but true. It's a shame that a main class feature is only interesting if you exploit some tricky things.


I see you are not yet a subtle spell believer:


If you can't see the power in being able to cast suggestion on someone in a room full of people without anyone being able to tell you charmed them (including the victim) then I can't really do much to argue in it's favor. I'm a huge proponent of this gimmick and it's often broke the social encounter game in our favor.

As for counter spell:


The prophet, Mark Mearls hath spoken!
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/
Can't see me casting anything? Then you can't counter it bitches!

Ok. Don't get me wrong. You made a good case to show that Subtle Spell is better than I thought.
And it's not that I don't see the power of this metamagic. I do see that. It's just that I try to organize the order that I'll pick the metamagic options based on what I believe I'd use more frequently, according to my game style. Based on that idea, the two metamagic options that I picked with my current Sorcerer were Quicken Spell and Empowered Spell. Subtle Spell wasn't in the top of my priority list. Maybe at level 17, after Twin spell.



Did you skip my whole empowered/quicken shtick? Empower spell + Dragon Elemental Affinity makes you a -way- better blaster. Sure an Invoker can just cast wherever they want, but who cares, if you're smart about your spells you'll consistently do more damage. They'll never have quicken, and they'll never have empower.

No. In fact, as I said right now, these are my two initial metamagics of choice.
Evocation Wizards have Sculpt spells, so they just don't need to bother with allies and can throw a Fireball wherever spot will hit the greatest number of enemies. And it doesn't require any resource to use it.
Evocation Wizards have Empowered Evocation, that will boost the damage of any element they use, not a single element. The damage boost is usually lower than the Empowered Spell, but again, it doesn't require any resource to use it. You can use it all day long.
Evocation Wizards have Overchannel. That's self explanatory.

And Quickened Spell usuall just allow you to cast a Spell+Cantrip. It's good, but it's not something like WOAH. My character make a better use because he can attack twice using GWM and then throw a Fireball/Lightning Bolt/whatever spell he has. But that's because my character is a heavy weapon/armor gish Favored Soul. It's an exception, not the rule.

So as I said, it seems that Wizards are not only more versatile than Sorcerers. They're also better Blaster if they choose to be.


Because careful spell isn't meant for blasters bro. Stop comparing it like it does. Have you ever seen Careful Spell Stinking Cloud in action? It's literally not fair. The only drawback of the spell is that it harms allies too and you completely negate it's only drawback. Every enemy in the encounter has to roll Con vs your spell DC or not get an action. And that's just one spell! There are loads of other AoE spells that have the same drawback of targeting allies. Broken AF.

You're still locked into a "SORCERERS DO DAMAGE" paradigm because you haven't paired up with people who can do enough damage for you. I took Greater Invis, for instance, so I can use it on our Rogue with Sentinel and have him **** on an encounter. Twin Spell polymorph is...god damnit two giant apes is so funny.

It's not that I'm locked into that paradigm. It's just that I enjoy it and there's nothing wrong with that.
I have a lot of fun with the idea of using a sharp sword and the power of the elements to bring destruction to my targets.

In any case, since Careful Spell (unlike Sculpt Spell) costs a precious resource (Sorcery Points), I don't think it would be unfair to Wizards if Careful Spell worked like the Sculpt Spell, but with non-evocation spells as well.


Because you have no craft. You aren't considering how strong Twin Spell truly is (the community ****ing worships this metamagic) and you don't see the power of careful/subtle spell. Stop looking at Sorcerers as exclusively blasters and maybe you'll see the light.

Yes, I know what people say about Twin Spell. But it's a matter of game style.
It's not that I hate the idea of buffing the other members of the party. It's just that I don't enjoy it to be my main job.

[Strill]

So again, I ask:

Are Metamagics so good that it's enough to compensate all of their losses?

I have a strong feeling that the anwer is "No". But maybe I'm missing something.

And I don't think that Sorcerers need more spells, because more spells just increase theyr versatility. I think they need more flexibility, not versatility!
As-is no, I don't think metamagics are strong enough to compensate for all the disadvantages Sorcerers get. I also agree 100% that the sorcerer needs flexibility, not versatility. Otherwise they have nothing unique.

I think that, in order to address metamagic, you need to at least fix the fact that some metamagics are dramatically more powerful than others. Kryx, in his metamagic-as-feats homebrew, divides metamagic into two categories and has you pick one from each. I think that's a good way of making the weaker metamagics a viable choice.

[Socratov]

I have said it once, twice and many more times (not all on this forum), but I think that all sorcerers shoudl get all metamagics. That will give the sorcerer the flexibility to adapt its spells to any situation.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ok, so now we have the Flexible Casting feature. When someone put their eyes for the first time at this class feature, it's ridiculously easy to realize that this class feature doesn't turn Sorcerers into the flexible casters that they are - at least conceptually - since their original design. It's a sort of last resort, emergency only feature, because in the end, you will cast less spells than you normally would. The kind of thing that it's a trap, unless you are trully desperate.

I think by focusing on the amount of spells you've, unintentionally, misconstrued the word Variety, which means: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

with the word flexible which means: (of a person) ready and able to change so as to adapt to different circumstances.

Sorcerers are flexible. It's not as efficient and it lacks the depth of field of a Wizard, but it's absolutely more flexible than a Wizard.

Yes, wizards have arcane recovery for spell slots, but that requires rest to enable. Flexible Casting can be done on the fly, mid-combat, which is pretty much its only purpose. You can adapt to changing situations without having to go take a break or whatever.


Um... I get that you're angry, but my players have never felt that sorcerers are gimped at all. In fact, I have a player who regularly plays Sorcerers over wizards because he likes them so much.

Why? Sorcery points. See, at higher levels, your level one slots are pretty much useless to you - what you really want is more level 3-5 slots, which can actually do some damage or accomplish the tasks you want (eg: dispel magic, counterspell, or fireball). At the end of the day, the wizard gets a set amount of possible higher-level slots, while the sorcerer can really mix things up, allowing them to trade in their useless, low-level spots and replace them with higher level spells.

My friend who plays a sorcerer will often drop all but one or two level one spells known, in favor of learning more high-level spells, which they are able to cast more frequently. It really does work out in his favor. Perhaps another look at how those abilities interact might be beneficial for you.

This is dead on, the value is in being able to adapt, not in having more more more.


The Sorcerer is the least flexible full-casting class in 5e by virtue of having a crippling number of spells known. Sorc points are too limited to make up for this deficiency, and in fact pigeonholes the Sorc even more by forcing him to pick spells that can be metamagic'ed well.

Flexability is being able to adapt to a changing situation on the fly, not having a broad variety of potential loadouts.

A Wizard has broad options, but they lack flexibility in the face of changing circumstances. For example, a 5th level Sorcerer can redistribute resources to throw out up to 3 additional 3rd level spells per day. If they really need that 3rd level slot, that can be far more valuable than having their 1st or 2nd level slots. I'd also note that the existence of metamagic means a Sorcerers spells are able to be qualitatively better than a generic Wizards.

[arrowed]

I have said it once, twice and many more times (not all on this forum), but I think that all sorcerers shoudl get all metamagics. That will give the sorcerer the flexibility to adapt its spells to any situation.

It might work, but how would you implement it? Of the eight standard metamagic options given, a sorcerer gets 2 at level 3, 1 at level 10 and 1 more at level 17. Would you give sorcerers access to all metamagics at level 3+, with no features at level 10 or 17? That would make the sorcerer an even more attractive multiclass option, and lessen the smoothness of the classes development.

An idea of my own: what if sorcerers could produce spell slots above level 5 with flexible spellcasting? The ability to cast increased numbers of level 6+ spells would put them on competitive footing with just about any other class in the game, I think. I'm not sure how you'd need to work the points cost though, whether it should be 10/12/14/16 or 11/13/15/17 or something else.

[Strill]

Flexible spellcasting is really there for 3 reasons:
You need more metamagic points.
You dont need as many low level spell slots, but need more high level ones.
You need more spells and but don't need your metamagic. (In which case it's just Arcane/Natural Recovery)

I don't agree. At higher levels you should be using your 1st level slots on Shield. For 2nd level you have Web, Suggestion, Invisibility, or Misty Step.

[odigity]

Even if I agreed with ya'll, I only play AL now due to not being able to find a stable, long-term group to be part of, which means I can't apply houserules to fix up weaknesses in classes.

At least Sorcerer makes a great multiclass. And, lots of these complaints apply to Warlock as well, which, unsurprisingly, is the other class most known for dipping rather than going all the way.

Luckily Cha has the most MC options.

[Citan]

It might work, but how would you implement it? Of the eight standard metamagic options given, a sorcerer gets 2 at level 3, 1 at level 10 and 1 more at level 17. Would you give sorcerers access to all metamagics at level 3+, with no features at level 10 or 17? That would make the sorcerer an even more attractive multiclass option, and lessen the smoothness of the classes development.

An idea of my own: what if sorcerers could produce spell slots above level 5 with flexible spellcasting? The ability to cast increased numbers of level 6+ spells would put them on competitive footing with just about any other class in the game, I think. I'm not sure how you'd need to work the points cost though, whether it should be 10/12/14/16 or 11/13/15/17 or something else.
No need for that at all. ;)
Three ways.

1. Pick 3 permanent Metamagic at level 3, 2 more at level 10, 2 more at level 17. One left.

2. Keep the current Metamagic "leveling", but add in-between one more Metamagic learnt when you get a subclass feature, and one (or two) last at level 20.
This smooths out the learning over levels, making the player feel rewarded for progression while avoiding any multiclassing cheese.
My preferred way.

3. Make Metamagic a "changeable long-rest" feature. Each long rest, Sorcerer can choose between 3 Metamagic. Keep the progression as-is, so that at the end, Sorcerer can freely use 4 Metamagic in any given day.

Also, as far as Sorcery points are concerned...
- give a small bonus amount of SP (like Cha modifier) once he is high level enough (at least 7 I'd say).
- or halve the amount of SP, forbid spell slot conversion, but make it a short rest resource, if your player is really fond of Metamagic. ;)
These last suggestions are not necessary per se as they are a strict boost in power, but if you know how to adapt encounters if need be, it would be much more fun for your player.

[NNescio]

I think by focusing on the amount of spells you've, unintentionally, misconstrued the word Variety, which means: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

with the word flexible which means: (of a person) ready and able to change so as to adapt to different circumstances.

Sorcerers are flexible. It's not as efficient and it lacks the depth of field of a Wizard, but it's absolutely more flexible than a Wizard.

And having more options and the ability to change these options on a day-to-day basis means you are more capable of adapting to different circumstances. Variety is tied to flexibility so long as each varied option are distinct form each other and are well-suited for different circumstances, which the Wizard spells are. And Spellbook Ritual Casting means you can also adapt freely while out-of-combat, without consuming additional resources beyond time. Spell Preparation and having boatloads of spells per level (plus the ability to scribe in more spell) means the Wizard can also afford to take highly circumstantial spells which he only swaps in as necessary. This is usually a bad idea for the Sorc, who would be stuck with the spell choice for something he wouldn't use often. Wizards hence have the capacity to adapt better to changing environments compared to the Sorcs.

This was why Wizard was Tier 1 and Sorcs were Tier 2 in 3.5e. Greater versatility and the ability to adapt to changing environments by fine-tuning their spell selection. This distinction is less clear in 5e (because spells are generally weaker), but the Wiz still retains the key advantage of prepared spellcasting ON TOP of 3.5e-style spontaneous casting (which every caster is now). The Sorc meanwhile gets... Metamagic, which he has to pay out of his butt to use more often, while Wizzies get effective free metamagic for their chosen spell school.

Really, for that matter, metamagic'd spells are mostly similar to their non-metamagic'd counterparts. They fill similar niches (barring stupidly powerful and flexible things like an Illusionist's effective free metamagic options).

Playing a Blaster Evocation Wiz can going up against Fire-immune enemies (so Elemental Affinity can't pierce it)? Ehh, just swap out your fire spells for other elements. Or just use CC/BFC spells instead. Meanwhile the Draconic Sorc is screwed six ways to Sunday.

Same goes for Enchanter vs. a Sorc pimped out with social spells in a dungeon crawl or against enchantment-immune enemies. Really. 15 spells known over the whole of your career, you don't have much leeway to adapt to changing situations.

And we're not even talking about the superior spell list yet. Wall of Force and Forcecage are just plain unfair and has a niche in nearly every encounter, against nearly all types of enemies.



Yes, wizards have arcane recovery for spell slots, but that requires rest to enable. Flexible Casting can be done on the fly, mid-combat, which is pretty much its only purpose. You can adapt to changing situations without having to go take a break or whatever.

Wizards are bound to use Arcane Recovery anyway, unless the party never take a short rest for the entire day, or if the short rest they took was too early.

Meanwhile using Flexible Casting means eating up your limited pool for Sorc points for metamagic, which is what makes a Sorcerer a Sorcerer. The Wizard, meanwhile, doesn't need to dip into his Arcane Recovery pool to get free metamagic options with his chosen school. Some of which are quite strong like an Illusionist's Illusory Reality, which makes all Illusion spells the most versatile and flexible spells every. at lower levels even Malleable Illusions offers significant versatility and flexibility, as the Illusionist can adapt his illusion on the fly. Conjurers, meanwhile, get conjure objects for out-of-combat needs, get free escape options (another point in adaptability), and gain unbreakable concentration on conjuration spells alter on. They also get more durable summons, and summons (especially if the Wiz's concentration can't be broken) are extremely versatile and flexible spells. Transmuters meanwhile can even resurrect allies later on, which is key to be able to adapt to the dreaded case of "when your party Cleric gets killed".

Wizards can also afford to prepare Divination spells to scout a place (or general situation) out before switching back to their combat spell list (or even better, a spell list specifically tailored from the information they get). This let them adapt even better, in an active, not passive manner.

Key Wizard exclusive spells like Contingency also help the Wizard to adapt against unexpected contingencies (pun intended).







Why? Sorcery points. See, at higher levels, your level one slots are pretty much useless to you - what you really want is more level 3-5 slots, which can actually do some damage or accomplish the tasks you want (eg: dispel magic, counterspell, or fireball). At the end of the day, the wizard gets a set amount of possible higher-level slots, while the sorcerer can really mix things up, allowing them to trade in their useless, low-level spots and replace them with higher level spells.

My friend who plays a sorcerer will often drop all but one or two level one spells known, in favor of learning more high-level spells, which they are able to cast more frequently. It really does work out in his favor. Perhaps another look at how those abilities interact might be beneficial for you.
This is dead on, the value is in being able to adapt, not in having more more more.


At higher levels your L1 and L2 slots are fodder for defensive options like Shield (autopick for any caster who gets access to this spell), Mage Armor (for non Draconics), Absorb Elements (oops, Sorcs don't get that :smallfurious:), Featherfall (mandatory pick if you ever fly regularly, which a Draconic Sorc is more likely to do compared to a Wiz), Disguise Self (if your DM plays humanoid enemies intelligently and have them "geek the mage first"), Mirror Image, Invisibility (you don't need Greater all the time while out-of-combat) and Misty Step (ESPECIALLY Misty Step, which becomes even better when Subtle'd if you're Silenced or gagged). Wizards notably become less dependent on these slots after L18 (because they can at-will Shield and Misty Step if they choose to), but not Sorcs.

Try burning all those slots as a Sorc. You'll regret it.

In any case, L2 slots can also be used to cast Darkness, Blindness (the Deafness component is mostly useless) and Web, which remain as excellent debuffs/CCs even at higher levels. Two of the above three options can neuter Beholders (and a lot of casters who depend on LoS to target their spells), and Darkness doesn't even offer a save. Blindness meanwhile is the go-to stacking debuff as it doesn't require concentration.

Suggestion (another L2 spell) meanwhile is a bit more niche, but it can have potent application under the right circumstances (even in combat at higher levels, if you have a good general idea of your enemies' motives and are facing intelligent enemies), especially when Subtle'd (this one of the few unique advantages the Sorc has over the Wiz).

L1 slots can also be used for cheap CC via Fog Cloud, which can even deny vision to things that can see in Darkness. having both Darkness and Fog Cloud are kinda excessive though.




Flexability is being able to adapt to a changing situation on the fly, not having a broad variety of potential loadouts.

A Wizard has broad options, but they lack flexibility in the face of changing circumstances. For example, a 5th level Sorcerer can redistribute resources to throw out up to 3 additional 3rd level spells per day. If they really need that 3rd level slot, that can be far more valuable than having their 1st or 2nd level slots. I'd also note that the existence of metamagic means a Sorcerers spells are able to be qualitatively better than a generic Wizards.

Sorcerers miiight have more short-term flexibility if they need to nova with their highest level spell slot. Past L10 this advantage vanishes, since Flexible Casting can't be used for 6th level spells and higher. The Sorc lose heavily in any measure of long term flexibility (read: any time span greater than one day) since he can't change out his spell list to meet changing needs (except when he levels, and only one at a time).

Wizzies can afford to throw around more low-level spell effects, especially if they are from their chosen school, since they get effective free metamagic anyway (gee, how many times did I mention that?). An Evoker's Evocation spells are generally qualitatively better than a Sorcerer (even Draconic Sorcerers, nothing beats Overchannel), a Diviner can guarantee his Save-or-Suck/Lose spell landing (barring Legendary Resistance) two/three times a day for free, while the Sorc can only force disadvantage by spending THREE whole Sorc points (or spend TWO Sorc points AND a reaction to impose a 1d4 penalty if he's Wild Magic). Meanwhile an Illusionist's Illusion spells are plain unfair and beyond the scope of any Sorcerer (or any other caster, really, including other Wizards).

[Socratov]

It might work, but how would you implement it? Of the eight standard metamagic options given, a sorcerer gets 2 at level 3, 1 at level 10 and 1 more at level 17. Would you give sorcerers access to all metamagics at level 3+, with no features at level 10 or 17? That would make the sorcerer an even more attractive multiclass option, and lessen the smoothness of the classes development.

An idea of my own: what if sorcerers could produce spell slots above level 5 with flexible spellcasting? The ability to cast increased numbers of level 6+ spells would put them on competitive footing with just about any other class in the game, I think. I'm not sure how you'd need to work the points cost though, whether it should be 10/12/14/16 or 11/13/15/17 or something else.

Pesonally, yes. The use of metamagics is restricted by sorcerypoints. AT lvl 3 you have 3 and a maximum pool of 3. Lot of people forget this: sorcerypoints gained in excess of your maximum number of sorcerypoints are lost. There are more then enough reasons to continue corcero beyond that: 9th lvl spells. The sorceror's capstone was never much (regain 4 points when you start battle empty? that is not a capstone, that is a lvl 11 ability, lvl 5 for the bard even), but 9th lvl spells are awesome, 9th lvl spellslots as well. And don't let anybody tell you different. Though the spellstarved sorceror could use a couple of more spells known so you don't have to pick yourself spells into a pigeonhole. Personally I'd remake the sorceror as follows:

lvl 1: casting and spells known as bard wihtout the magical secrets (so bard spells known as given in the table -1)

I don't think the sorceror should surpass the bard in spells known, even if hte nard has other stuff he can do. but at least come close. The number of spells the sorceror knows wihtout this fix is staggeringly low. Almost outperformed by the warlock.

lvl 3: metamagics: at lvl 3 the sorceror gains the ability to adjust spell son the by spending sorcerypoints to apply metamagics on the spell (continue as normal: types and cost and the fact that apart from empower spell you can only use one).

While it's tempting to say that spells are the Sorceror's defining feature, no it isn't: hehas no specific spell sof his own. Stuff no other caster has. Metamagics are, however, the sorceror's main schtick. His raison d'etre. So this is what he should be able to do very well. And thus have access to. You don't see fighters walkin around with proficiency in only half of the weapons or armor present. The defining feature of a class should be fully usable by that class.

Lvl 10: Molder of the Weave: At lvl 10 a sorceror gains the ability to regain spent sorcerypoints. A sorceror can, once per long rest, replenish his sorcerypoints for up to half his sorceror class level or until he hits the maximum number of sorcerypoints

many casters get a way to freely replenish their slots, or at least part of them. The sorceror can do that, at a great cost: not being able to use his defining feature. That is not just lazy design, but actively bad. On another note, getting 4 points is not a capstone, it's a trap

lvl 17: One with the Weave: The sorcerypoints neccessary to regain a spellslot equals the spellslot level.

Finally, the idiotic way of converting spellslots into points and then back into spellslots is streamlined. Yes I waited a loing time for this, but at this lvl the balance can handle that better. It also, in fluff terms, signifies a veritable mastery over his inner energy

Lvl 20: Source of Magic: At lvl 20 the sorceror can use his Molder of the Weave ability once per short rest, up to his Charisma modifier per long rest.

If the wizard can cast certain spells at will, the druid change shape at will, the sorceror should at least be able to use more and more sorcerypoints and regain them faster. Just bounded to once per short rest (to make sure that the sorceror is not like the warlock, but between de warlock and wizard) and to Charisma modifier (to actually limit the warlockiness of the capstone) to make sure the sorceror does not go on ad infinitum, though longer then the wizard.

(italics project my thoughts on the matter)

Now I know this could potentially make the sorceroro very strong and of course numbers could be tweaked (the recovery might be highest level of spells known or something) but these would certainly make the sorceror more like a bowieknife to the wizard's leatherman (with screwdriver bit set) and would invite the sorceror to sling about his metamagics, differentiating him from his caster brethren.

[famousringo]

Has anybody considered that it's not the sorcerer but the wizard that's the source of the sorceror sucking?

AS far as spellliksts go, the divine casters and bards are fine compared to the sorcerer. different spell lists that give different options and abilities. No toes stepped on.

Oh boy, do I ever not agree with that assessment. With their CHA base and a very similar spell list and casting ruleset, bards are the second closest class to sorcerers, and they outclass sorcerers (and maybe everybody else) even worse than wizards do.

I'm playing a wild sorcerer in a group with a lore bard right now, and we've taken pains not to "step on each other's toes," but his spells known advantage and ritual magic are enough to make him a match for me as an arcane spellcaster. On top of that he enjoys vastly better dice manipulation, skill proficiency, and an edge in martial ability. About the only thing I do better than him is cast cantrips.

[Vogonjeltz]

And having more options and the ability to change these options on a day-to-day basis means you are more capable of adapting to different circumstances. Variety is tied to flexibility so long as each varied option are distinct form each other and are well-suited for different circumstances, which the Wizard spells are. And Spellbook Ritual Casting means you can also adapt freely while out-of-combat, without consuming additional resources beyond time. Spell Preparation and having boatloads of spells per level (plus the ability to scribe in more spell) means the Wizard can also afford to take highly circumstantial spells which he only swaps in as necessary. This is usually a bad idea for the Sorc, who would be stuck with the spell choice for something he wouldn't use often. Wizards hence have the capacity to adapt better to changing environments compared to the Sorcs.

No, no that is not flexability or adaptability. Having a deep field of options to draw from is merely having variety, but it doesn't get you what you need when you need it, and that is the crucial difference.

Wizards can't swap their spells on the fly, they need downtime, they need planning and preparation, their strong point for spells in general are slow and methodical (ritual casting for example is 10 minutes, not a thing for combat), once they are out of spell slots for the day, that's it, they are just done for the day.

The Sorcerer, in comparison, is flexible, they can on the fly pull out that one extra spell slot they need for a crucial game changing play. That is their strength, not repeated slow casting ritual spells, or the ability to change their loadout to meet the anticipated challenges of a new day, but the ability to get additional oomph out of their repetoire in the thick of combat, when there's no room for error or ability to sit down and study a book for a few hours.

There's nothing wrong with the Wizard being slow and inflexible in the face of adversity, but it's simply not the same play style and trying to shoehorn the Sorcerer to act as a Wizard is a terrible misuse of the Sorcerer's abilities.


This was why Wizard was Tier 1 and Sorcs were Tier 2 in 3.5e. Greater versatility and the ability to adapt to changing environments by fine-tuning their spell selection. This distinction is less clear in 5e (because spells are generally weaker), but the Wiz still retains the key advantage of prepared spellcasting ON TOP of 3.5e-style spontaneous casting (which every caster is now). The Sorc meanwhile gets... Metamagic, which he has to pay out of his butt to use more often, while Wizzies get effective free metamagic for their chosen spell school.

Really, for that matter, metamagic'd spells are mostly similar to their non-metamagic'd counterparts. They fill similar niches (barring stupidly powerful and flexible things like an Illusionist's effective free metamagic options).

Playing a Blaster Evocation Wiz can going up against Fire-immune enemies (so Elemental Affinity can't pierce it)? Ehh, just swap out your fire spells for other elements. Or just use CC/BFC spells instead. Meanwhile the Draconic Sorc is screwed six ways to Sunday.

Same goes for Enchanter vs. a Sorc pimped out with social spells in a dungeon crawl or against enchantment-immune enemies. Really. 15 spells known over the whole of your career, you don't have much leeway to adapt to changing situations.

And we're not even talking about the superior spell list yet. Wall of Force and Forcecage are just plain unfair and has a niche in nearly every encounter, against nearly all types of enemies.

I think you've just touched upon a playstyle difference between the Sorcerer and the Wizard. The Sorcerer, not being able to swap their spells, must give greater consideration to the spells they choose, recognizing that they shouldn't pigeonhole themselves into one damage type for example in the rare circumstances they encounter something totally immune to that type of damage.

i.e. Don't pick only Fire damage spells, have a backup plan. Of course, having additional cantrips allows the Sorcerer to get more than one damaging cantrip and not have to worry about specific immunities. (i.e. Take Ray of Frost and Fire Bolt).

Also, on spell choice, taking only spells which all share the same weakness or flaw is basically asking to run face first into a brick wall when something which exploits that weakness shows up. That's straight up user error, not a flaw in the class.

It's not flexible to be able to change spells after a day. That's slow, it's plodding, it doesn't get you what you need right now before those horrors from the deep eat us! Oh god oh god oh god....blurgh.....

As far as spell lists go, the Sorcerer has a list cobbled from many classes, so they also have spells the Wizard doesn't (i.e. Enhance Ability, Daylight, Water Walk, Dominate Beast, Insect Plague, Earthquake). Playing a Sorcerer does not mean trying to imitate a Wizard, it means doing things Wizards are simply incapable of doing.

One of the better Metamagics that exemplifies this is Extended Spell; 1 point effectively casts a spell twice in succession.

So Earthquake, for example, an 8th level spell, can run for 2 minutes, doubling its output and, again for only 1 sorcery point, is akin to casting the spell twice, something no other caster can do without expending a 9th level slot as well, and they can do it earlier than any other caster. Wizards have no similar emulation, it's simply not an option for them.


Wizards are bound to use Arcane Recovery anyway, unless the party never take a short rest for the entire day, or if the short rest they took was too early.

Meanwhile using Flexible Casting means eating up your limited pool for Sorc points for metamagic, which is what makes a Sorcerer a Sorcerer. The Wizard, meanwhile, doesn't need to dip into his Arcane Recovery pool to get free metamagic options with his chosen school. Some of which are quite strong like an Illusionist's Illusory Reality, which makes all Illusion spells the most versatile and flexible spells every. at lower levels even Malleable Illusions offers significant versatility and flexibility, as the Illusionist can adapt his illusion on the fly. Conjurers, meanwhile, get conjure objects for out-of-combat needs, get free escape options (another point in adaptability), and gain unbreakable concentration on conjuration spells alter on. They also get more durable summons, and summons (especially if the Wiz's concentration can't be broken) are extremely versatile and flexible spells. Transmuters meanwhile can even resurrect allies later on, which is key to be able to adapt to the dreaded case of "when your party Cleric gets killed".

Wizards are bound to use Arcane Recovery, but not if they are dead first because they didn't have the spell slot in dire circumstances.

Flexible Casting is there as an emergency need, not something to be casually done. It's about being able to pull a serious spell out to counter a serious threat. If just any old cantrip would do, then it's not worth converting.

Wizard schools have varied and different and mutually exclusive options, it's true; no different than the Draconic Sorcerer getting resistance and extra damage to their color type and flight and fear; or the Wild Magic Sorcerer having advantage or getting re-rolls on demand.


Wizards can also afford to prepare Divination spells to scout a place (or general situation) out before switching back to their combat spell list (or even better, a spell list specifically tailored from the information they get). This let them adapt even better, in an active, not passive manner.

Key Wizard exclusive spells like Contingency also help the Wizard to adapt against unexpected contingencies (pun intended).

What divination spells? Wizards can't change their spell lists except on a long rest, so no they can't "scout out a situation" and then swap to tailor to anything discovered. For that matter, there don't appear to be any divination spells that function without having been to a location and being familiar with it (Clairvoyance), or with a specific known entity (Scrying).

Contingency is useful for saving the Wizard's bacon, but it doesn't adapt, it's pre-planned to aid against a specific named threat (i.e. Drowning) and it doesn't do anything the Wizard didn't already plan for in advance. If you fall off a cliff, but the Contingency was for Water Breathing and you're out of spell slots for whatever your flying spell of choice was...oh well! In contrast a Sorcerer could actually get out of that situation by converting some spare sorcery points and casting fly or levitate (or whatever their flying spell of choice was) on themselves.


At higher levels your L1 and L2 slots are fodder for defensive options like Shield (autopick for any caster who gets access to this spell), Mage Armor (for non Draconics), Absorb Elements (oops, Sorcs don't get that ), Featherfall (mandatory pick if you ever fly regularly, which a Draconic Sorc is more likely to do compared to a Wiz), Disguise Self (if your DM plays humanoid enemies intelligently and have them "geek the mage first"), Mirror Image, Invisibility (you don't need Greater all the time while out-of-combat) and Misty Step (ESPECIALLY Misty Step, which becomes even better when Subtle'd if you're Silenced or gagged). Wizards notably become less dependent on these slots after L18 (because they can at-will Shield and Misty Step if they choose to), but not Sorcs.

Try burning all those slots as a Sorc. You'll regret it.

In any case, L2 slots can also be used to cast Darkness, Blindness (the Deafness component is mostly useless) and Web, which remain as excellent debuffs/CCs even at higher levels. Two of the above three options can neuter Beholders (and a lot of casters who depend on LoS to target their spells), and Darkness doesn't even offer a save. Blindness meanwhile is the go-to stacking debuff as it doesn't require concentration.

Suggestion (another L2 spell) meanwhile is a bit more niche, but it can have potent application under the right circumstances (even in combat at higher levels, if you have a good general idea of your enemies' motives and are facing intelligent enemies), especially when Subtle'd (this one of the few unique advantages the Sorc has over the Wiz).

L1 slots can also be used for cheap CC via Fog Cloud, which can even deny vision to things that can see in Darkness. having both Darkness and Fog Cloud are kinda excessive though.

As you note, Draconic Sorcerers don't need Mage Armor, they have the AC by default, but they also don't need Feather Fall, they can just fly.
Shield is an 'ok' option, but Sleep is better.
At higher levels the Sorcerer can just double the duration of their spells and enforce disadvantage on enemy saving throws, making them better at debuffing enemies than any Wizard (Divination can, on an extremely limited basis change rolls, but not nearly as often as a Sorcerer could impose disadvantage)


Sorcerers miiight have more short-term flexibility if they need to nova with their highest level spell slot. Past L10 this advantage vanishes, since Flexible Casting can't be used for 6th level spells and higher. The Sorc lose heavily in any measure of long term flexibility (read: any time span greater than one day) since he can't change out his spell list to meet changing needs (except when he levels, and only one at a time).

Wizzies can afford to throw around more low-level spell effects, especially if they are from their chosen school, since they get effective free metamagic anyway (gee, how many times did I mention that?). An Evoker's Evocation spells are generally qualitatively better than a Sorcerer (even Draconic Sorcerers, nothing beats Overchannel), a Diviner can guarantee his Save-or-Suck/Lose spell landing (barring Legendary Resistance) two/three times a day for free, while the Sorc can only force disadvantage by spending THREE whole Sorc points (or spend TWO Sorc points AND a reaction to impose a 1d4 penalty if he's Wild Magic). Meanwhile an Illusionist's Illusion spells are plain unfair and beyond the scope of any Sorcerer (or any other caster, really, including other Wizards).

There is no such thing as "long term flexibility", that's an oxymoron. Flexibility is always short term. If you can't adapt in the immediate now, you're not flexible, and given that there's a need, the character might even be dead.

At level 20 a Wizard can throw around two lower level spells, "big deal", as you've noted repeatedly, lower level slots are generally useless at that point. Better to be able to convert one of those 1st level spell slots into something useful like doubling the duration of any 8th level spell courtesy of Wish. Or double the duration of a major offensive spell like Sunbeam (+10 rounds of Sunbeam is worth more than any number of rounds of Scorching Ray). Every 1st level spell slot effectively becomes an 8th, 7th, or 6th level spell slot. Now that is flexibility.

Evokers can output some big numbers with lower level spells but only at a severe cost to themselves, and they can protect allies, but only from Evocation spells. Sorcerers can do similar things (sculpt spells) but better (works for any school), get advantage on damage rolls, have longer castings of higher level higher damage spells. Which is, in effect, the same as maximizing, but without the health risks and able to be applied to higher damage spells.
Diviners can only do it at most 3 times per long rest. Sorcerers can do it many more times (+1.3 per short rest actually, if they're that interested in it).
Illusion in general is feeble as a school, and unworthy of a Sorcerer's talents.

[SharkForce]

blowing your sorcery points on getting spell slots (especially when converting spell slots to SP and then back, which requires at least 2 bonus actions and therefore does not in fact happen immediately - more if we're talking about the supposedly awesome ability to convert a bunch of low level spell slots into a higher level spell slot) is not a strength of the sorcerer. it is a giant steaming pile of turds that you might be forced to use if you've somehow managed to get yourself into an extremely desperate situation.

not only is it inefficient, it is trading away the only ability the sorcerer has that someone else doesn't do better (and for all the complaining about wizards getting free use of some metamagics, generally speaking the sorcerer does do things with metamagic that are better than what anyone else can do without metamagic, and the only reason most other caster builds don't call for metamagic is that you need a 3-level dip into sorcerer to get it, and 3 levels is just too big of a dip for someone who wants to be a druid-with-metamagic or a wizard-with-metamagic).

flexible casting isn't good for spell slots. it is good for getting more sorcery points so that you can actually be a sorcerer at all once you've used your basic amount on metamagic already. it is terrible for getting back spell slots, but sometimes a terrible option for getting back spell slots is better than no option for getting back spell slots, and that's about the nicest thing i can say about the ability.

[Tanarii]

I can even imagine the following situation:

Player: Damn it! I need to cast a spell, but that's a level 1 spell and I have no more level 1 spell slots!!
DM: Well, cast it as a 2nd level spell. Problem solved!
Player:I can't! This spell has no upcasting. It only works as a level 1 spell!
DM: In that case, use your Bonus action to use 2 Sorcery Point, so you can gain a level 1 spell slot.
Player: I can't. I have no more Spell Points (SP)
DM: Well, in that case, burn a level 2 spell (2 SP) so you can gain a level 1 spell (2 SP)
Player: :smallfrown:

It's basically a feature designed to be used when are desesperated.I didn't see anyone pointing out this yet, but the section I bolded in green is wrong. You can always use a higher level spell slot for a lower level spell. You just don't gain any special benefit from upcasting.


I don't agree. At higher levels you should be using your 1st level slots on Shield. For 2nd level you have Web, Suggestion, Invisibility, or Misty Step.I was specifically talking about short adventuring days, with fewer encounters. ie when you're never going to get to using all your spell slots anyway. (This is a bigger benefit at higher levels when you actually have lots of spell slots, obviously.) For example, at level 10 you've got 15 spell slots. If you're only facing 3 (Deadly) encounters in an adventuring day, that may be far more than you can cast, or need to cast. Upgrading from lower spell slots to higher ones between encounters, especially if you know you're going into a final encounter, can be beneficial in that situation.

[SharkForce]

I was specifically talking about short adventuring days, with fewer encounters. ie when you're never going to get to using all your spell slots anyway. (This is a bigger benefit at higher levels when you actually have lots of spell slots, obviously.) For example, at level 10 you've got 15 spell slots. If you're only facing 3 (Deadly) encounters in an adventuring day, that may be far more than you can cast, or need to cast. Upgrading from lower spell slots to higher ones between encounters, especially if you know you're going into a final encounter, can be beneficial in that situation.

seems improbable. you can get a ton of value out of those lower level spells. to get a single high level spell, you'd probably need to give up every single one of your level 1 and 2 spells, assuming you haven't used any by that time (which is improbable), which means no mirror image, no shield, no misty step. unless you then also start sacrificing 3rd level spell slots for those spells.

low level spell slots become useful for different things at high levels. but they never stop being useful. it is quite unlikely for anyone to get more out of those slots by exchanging them in an extremely inefficient manner than they would get by just using those slots.

[Tanarii]

seems improbable.It used to seem pretty improbable to me too. Until I started noting how often people complain that '6-8 encounters is ridiculous!' Many folks right here on this forum seem to find even 3 encounters in a day (which is totally under the DMG guidelines if they're all Deadly) too many.

[eastmabl]

seems improbable. you can get a ton of value out of those lower level spells. to get a single high level spell, you'd probably need to give up every single one of your level 1 and 2 spells, assuming you haven't used any by that time (which is improbable), which means no mirror image, no shield, no misty step. unless you then also start sacrificing 3rd level spell slots for those spells.

low level spell slots become useful for different things at high levels. but they never stop being useful. it is quite unlikely for anyone to get more out of those slots by exchanging them in an extremely inefficient manner than they would get by just using those slots.

There are plenty of low level spells that stop being useful.

A 1st-level chromatic orb cast by a 17th level character is just an inferior ray of frost (or insert other elemental cantrip name). As a sorcerer, you could know most of the attack cantrips.

Sorcerers just need to pick spells that scale with level, or learn new spells as they progress in levels to take advantage of the fact that they generate better spell slots.

[Strill]

What divination spells? Wizards can't change their spell lists except on a long rest, so no they can't "scout out a situation" and then swap to tailor to anything discovered. For that matter, there don't appear to be any divination spells that function without having been to a location and being familiar with it (Clairvoyance), or with a specific known entity (Scrying).He's referring to Arcane Eye.


As you note, Draconic Sorcerers don't need Mage Armor, they have the AC by default, but they also don't need Feather Fall, they can just fly.If anything knocks you prone while you're flying, you'll fall to the ground immediately.

Shield is an 'ok' option, but Sleep is better. Is this a joke? At level 1 Sleep is better, but Sleep becomes useless around level 4-5.


At level 20 a Wizard can throw around two lower level spells, "big deal", as you've noted repeatedly, lower level slots are generally useless at that point.No. He pointed out that there are relatively few options for 1st level spells, and that there were plenty of great 2nd level spells. Having Shield At-will is an absolutely ridiculous benefit that puts your AC at or well above that of a front-line tank.

And do I really need to explain why Misty Step or Web or Blindness at-will is incredible?


Better to be able to convert one of those 1st level spell slots into something useful like doubling the duration of any 8th level spell courtesy of Wish. Or double the duration of a major offensive spell like Sunbeam (+10 rounds of Sunbeam is worth more than any number of rounds of Scorching Ray). Every 1st level spell slot effectively becomes an 8th, 7th, or 6th level spell slot. Now that is flexibility.On paper that sounds good, but it's very very rare that a fight would actually last that long. The game generally assumes that fights end in 3 rounds.


Diviners can only do it at most 3 times per long rest. Sorcerers can do it many more times (+1.3 per short rest actually, if they're that interested in it).
See the problem here is you're underestimating the value of certainty. A Diviner's Portent is something you can be 100% certain of. That means you can plan around it and never be let down, which, if you've played a lot of strategy games, you know is extremely valuable because it allows you to safely take more aggressive tactics without worrying about being caught out. Heightened Spell is good no doubt, but not nearly as much. Even though it might not seem like a very high chance that your target will pass the save, it's still a chance that can ruin your group's plan for the round.

[Kane0]

I've found using spell points for sorcerers only to fix this up quite well. Even roll sorcery points into spell points to add simplicity and versatility.

[SharkForce]

It used to seem pretty improbable to me too. Until I started noting how often people complain that '6-8 encounters is ridiculous!' Many folks right here on this forum seem to find even 3 encounters in a day (which is totally under the DMG guidelines if they're all Deadly) too many.

if there's 3-4 tough fights per day, those are the fights where defensive spells that don't cost concentration (such as shield and mirror image or misty step - those being level 1 and 2 spells, i can't help noticing).

or, if you mean days where there are 3-4 easy fights, then frankly... who cares if you can get an extra high level spell on relatively short notice? if the fights are easy, it doesn't much matter whether you're using web or hypnotic pattern or stinking cloud (all lower level spells that hold their value fairly well in appropriate situations) or a higher level spell. honestly, given the sorcerer's limited spell list (by which i mean, lacking wall of force) what absolutely critical level 4-5 spell are you going to be missing that might be necessary for an easy fight?

DC scaling with proficiency bonus and spellcasting attribute but not spell slot means that web cast as a level 2 spell remains a valuable tool for late game fights where enemies have low dexterity and no immunity (even if they're good at breaking free or otherwise escaping, that probably costs an action... and if a caster is spending one action for a dozen enemy actions, then the spell was certainly not poorly used)