Superhuman Registration Act- good or bad?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was wondering...what are people's opinions on the Marvel Superhuman Registration Act? Personally, I think that it's a good idea- in theory. In the apparent execution, not so much.

Why? well, first of all, it means that metahumans* will be trained in their powers, preventing accidents. It also means that law enforcement agencies will have information about metahumans, letting them better deal with threats. The government could call on metahumans to help with disaster relief and stuff.

On the downside, it doesn't provide the means for super-heroes to keep a secret identity. Meaning they have to be on guard at all times. This is fine for, say, a normal guy who got his powers in a freak accident and just wants to live a normal life, but not good for someone who needs a secret identity to keep villains from attacking their family. Also, there's the 'fifty states initiative.' TOO MANY SUPER-HEROES, GUYS! Has there ever been a problem with there not being a super-team in every state? No. Will there be? Yes. If you want full coverage, have a few teams of EXPERIENCED heroes in heavily populated areas (New York, LA, New Orleans, and so on) with easy transport to threat zones. Don't turn every metahuman who just wants to control their powers and live a normal life into a soldier- have weekend/night-time training for them, and put them on a national-guard style call-up in the event of a real emergency.


*They better not fall into the habit of introducing characters with unexplained powers, though. Mutants aren't 'mainline' metahumans, so to speak, but if they show someone and don't explain the source of their powers, what are we to assume?

[Emperor Tippy]

It was and is a horrible idea in nearly every way.

First, registering metahumans with the government (especially the US marvel government) is the first step in a large scale use of metahumans in the military.

Second, it wasn't needed. The superheros tend to punish/stop their own when they go overboard and most no each others secret identities.

Third, giving the heroes secret identities to the villains will result in attacks on and the death of heroes families (and the villains are notable in their repeated penetration of the US government).

These are the big reasons.

[Falkus]

First, registering metahumans with the government (especially the US marvel government) is the first step in a large scale use of metahumans in the military.

You know what? I don't get this. Why is superheroes in the military a problem?


Second, it wasn't needed. The superheros tend to punish/stop their own when they go overboard and most no each others secret identities.

Would you be a happy citizen if the police didn't have any organized internal affairs departments and just had random officers handle it at their own leisure when it was convenient for them?


Third, giving the heroes secret identities to the villains will result in attacks on and the death of heroes families (and the villains are notable in their repeated penetration of the US government).

What gives them the right to hide their identities when police officers, detectives and federal agents can't? You think drug dealers and psychopaths don't go after families of police officers? Why should superheroes get a free pass?

[kpenguin]

I believe that there should be a metahuman organization that regulates superheroes. This organization should be run by superheroes, be independent from the government, and have bases and members worldwide. They should be recognized and accepted governments internationally and those nations who do not recognize them are not provided superhero service.

[13_CBS]

There are good and bad sides to this, it seems.

Pro-Registration argument:

"Registration is good! Since superheroes are basically powered up policemen, the government should handle them, right? And besides, this Act brings in a reduction of cocky newbies and makes the public feel even safer around superheroes now."

the counter argument:

"Err...secret identities? Forcing superheroes to register could lead to disaster for their loved ones. Plus, there's the threat of superheroes becoming tools of the government."

the counter-counter argument:

"Governments using superheroes as weapons? Nonsense! And besides, superhero identities will be kept secret by the government once the superheroes sign up."

the counter-counter-counter argument:

"But there are many hackers and supervillains who could easily reveal these identities by getting into government files. Heck, they've already done this several times."

the counter-counter-counter-counter argument:

"So what? Policemen and other government agents put their families on the line, too."

the counter x 5 argument:

"Ah, but they're not dealing with supervillains, are they?"

Ad naseum.

I'd say that both sides have really good points. It boils down to this: would you give up a measure of freedom for a measure of security?

[Gralamin]

While I didn't read the comics, I've read something about them. I've come to this conclusion: Bad.

The entire idea of the act is ridding a sub-group of some of their rights. This, in my opinion is wrong. Ridding a group of rights in one step in a direction that should not be taken.

I honestly think that this is all that needs to be said.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I believe that there should be a metahuman organization that regulates superheroes. This organization should be run by superheroes, be independent from the government, and have bases and members worldwide. They should be recognized and accepted governments internationally and those nations who do not recognize them are not provided superhero service.

this is probably the best solution, in truth. Except for the part about nations that don't recognize them not getting service- maybe not 'official' service, but if the Hulk is rampaging out of control there, you need metas. If it's just an earthquake or something, the country can handle that on its own.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's a good idea in theory, but there's no good way to execute it outside of shady, secret government organizing. Which would make the public complain if they ever found out. Acknowledging superhumans within the government like so sets them apart from humanity as a whole, opening up a fascist system that's going to start taking over quickly. As happens in fascism, either the whole government body for this is going to get torn up or one side is going to wipe out the other, be it the humans or the superhumans (I'm sure you can imagine who's got the better shot at survival). If it had been kept secret, it could have been done without resorting to fascism. Now it's quite impossible.

[Hushdawg]

right.. let's take a sub-group of humanity and force them to carry special IDs and be registered with a government agency.

That's the core of the program.

It marginalizes a group of people.

what's next? Tattoos and badges to make sure they are identified at all times?

Remember that the Superhuman registration act didn't only affect super powered humans who were active vigilantes or criminals, it was EVERY person who had a power in some way shape or form.

Where does it stop? Who will be registered next?

For a lot of you here this is just a theoretical discussion about something that happened in a fictional world. But I am actually part of a group of people who are being threatened with national registration on the level of the same sort of tracking that is done to sex criminals.

So for me, I took it very seriously.

[Gavin Sage]

I've written fair sized defenses of the idea of superhuman registration but I can keep this brief:

1) In short, grow up- Drivers licenses, doctors certifications, gun licenses. There's no essential difference, when you do or want to do something dangerous everyone's safety demands accountablity.

2) If wearing a mask gives you the right patrol around looking for people to beat up, then the KKK can beat up black people all they want. Yes that's harsh. Yes this is a fairly extreme example. But either way is vigilantism.

3) Heroes don't have to drop their secret identity under registration. The government can't keep them secret you say... well problem with that is SHIELD already knows who all of them are. And a piece of cloth is protection? Allies are better protection. So what exactly is your concern?

[kpenguin]

this is probably the best solution, in truth. Except for the part about nations that don't recognize them not getting service- maybe not 'official' service, but if the Hulk is rampaging out of control there, you need metas. If it's just an earthquake or something, the country can handle that on its own.

Yes, I believe that intervention would be necessary in extreme cases, like the Hulk or an alien invasion.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

There's a huge difference between a driver's license, doctor's license, or any other type of license versus a superhuman registration- the superhumans more often then not don't choose to be superhuman. You're being biased on a level that they can't help.

Also, not all superhumans are vigilantes. Yes, vigilanteism is inherently illegal, and for good reason. I could agree with you if you were saying that superhumans who want to be heroes needed to register, but that's not what the SHRA targets.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Huh. From everything I've seen in recent Marvel comics (and I'm not a regular reader, so I may have missed some details), the debate here is actually better thought-out and subtle than the actual writing, which seems to have degraded into a hit-you-over-the-head message of anti-government sentiment. Kudos, guys, on being thus far more mature than Marvel's editorial staff.

Anyway, I would have to side with the people who believe that the SHRA marginalizes a minority in an unacceptable fashion. Argue for it pragmatically all you want, it's still not morally right. Perhaps a more reasonable solution could have been arrived at if both sides of the issue hadn't been so extreme in their viewpoints from the start, and willing to fight, imprison, and die when more rational people could have talked out their differences, which goes to show us that human pride and stubbornness can do more damage than any superpowered thug.

[Gavin Sage]

There's a huge difference between a driver's license, doctor's license, or any other type of license versus a superhuman registration- the superhumans more often then not don't choose to be superhuman. You're being biased on a level that they can't help.

Also, not all superhumans are vigilantes. Yes, vigilanteism is inherently illegal, and for good reason. I could agree with you if you were saying that superhumans who want to be heroes needed to register, but that's not what the SHRA targets.

Not particularly relevant. Simply because of cases like say... Cyclops. He can very easily cause hordes of problems anywhere he goes because his power is at a basic level not in absolute control. If it wasn't for Charles Xavier being a genius where would Scott be? For cases beyond the norm the government has the right (and duty) to oversee things, both for the protection of the populace and to ensure that someone is not a danger to themselves. It not too different then motivations behind any social service. And given the unpredictability of superhuman abilities we cannot simply say things like, well only those that cause problems then have to register. Because someone might be dead by then. Presuming mutants start being born again or random bouts of hyper-chemicals are still spilled on people or whatever, some guy could be the next Cypher but they could just as easily be the next Wither or Rogue or Cyclops.

Now if there are no problems and a person only chooses to register when found out in one way or another, that's one thing. Its not like the program hasn't been forgiving, but that's not the same as accepting that there is no requirement. And how this is enforced is open to debate, and there are the basic limits privacy give everyone still. And even then if someone doesn't want to superhero, fine they can sit on their hands with their power. After the limits of their power are known. At most we're talking an amendment or moderate alterations to the existing SHRA, but for the majority of actual characters in question it is well back into vigilantism territory.

[Emperor Tippy]

The whole idea of registration is utterly unamerican and is against what most heroes fight for.


They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

That sum's up the issue perfectly. Any person who is willing to give up liberty for security deserves neither and any person who attempts to force another to give up their liberties for his own security should be executed as a traitor.

There is a reason Capitan America opposed registration.

Should metahumans police themselves better? Yes. Should they be answerable to any government? Not unless they do so willingly. What Marvel needs is something like the Justice League.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

There's a good counterpoint, thanks Tippy. You're talking about safety, Gavin, not morality nor justice. Life is inherently unsafe. Oppressing others for your own safety is wrong.

[Gavin Sage]

@Tippy:
The same could be said about any number of other measure the country has taken over the years. I dispute that the right to wear a mask and beat up people is somehow "essential liberty".

Also Marvel had something like the Justice League, the Avengers got taken out by one of their own. Unless you would rather the Illuminati's track record be put in instead? The guys who decided on their own to shoot the Hulk into space?

@Viscount Einstrauss:

Oppresion.... I say to that hah! I say its oppression I can't ten own Stinger rocket launchers and station them around my property loaded. Would you agree? SHRA is not oppresion, otherwise everyone who supported Cap would have been sumarily executed. That's oppresion.

And justice is not served by vigilantism either.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Tippy:
The same could be said about any number of other measure the country has taken over the years. I dispute that the right to wear a mask and beat up people is somehow "essential liberty".
Yeah, there are a lot of people throughout American history who shoudl have been shot for what they did. Just because a wrong has been performed in the past does not make it a right when performed in the present.


Also Marvel had something like the Justice League, the Avengers got taken out by one of their own. Unless you would rather the Illuminati's track record be put in instead? The guys who decided on their own to shoot the Hulk into space?
The Avengers have Tony Stark. He shouldn't be in charge of policing a toilet (as civil war proved). And look at the people who shot hulk into space.

Stark, Richards, and Strange were the people behind that. And Civil Warhas shown that Stark and Richards are idiots.

Of the Illuminati I would keep Xavier, and maybe Strange. Leave the oceans to Namor.


@Viscount Einstrauss:

Oppresion.... I say to that hah! I say its oppression I can't ten own Stinger rocket launchers and station them around my property loaded. Would you agree? SHRA is not oppresion, otherwise everyone who supported Cap would have been sumarily executed. That's oppresion.

And justice is not served by vigilantism either.
Justice? Few heroes are paragons of justice. They generally keep people safe.

And you have a choice in owning 10 stinger missiles. The vast majority of metahumans do not have that choice.

SHRA is the same as Hitler (yes I suppose that may be a godwin) forcing the Jewish people to wear gold stars.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I have yet to say that vigilanteism is good or should be supported. In fact, I said quite the opposite.

This isn't the same as purposely going out and obtaining weapons. Imagine if you were the weapon. You got no say in being one, but you'd like to live a normal life despite it. Now here comes the government, saying they'll put you in jail if you don't let them single you out. They want to put you through a bunch of tests and train your powers, and you get no say in the matter if you want to remain a free man. Afterwards, they'll keep a database detailing your powers and weaknesses. They have very effective blackmail material, and the first government agency to decide to step it up a notch in superhuman paranoia comes to your home and kills you, quickly and efficiently, probably hiding all evidence. How's that for fair?

[Friv]

The problem is, as mentioned, it is a good idea in concept. Because of that, in order to make it something that a civil war could break out over, they had to make the registration side do REALLY STUPID THINGS.

What I would accept: A system whereby, in order to become active crimefighters, someone would have to divulge their capabilities and identities, at which point they would join the ordinary police force, FBI, emergency crews, or whatever they signed up for.


What gives them the right to hide their identities when police officers, detectives and federal agents can't? You think drug dealers and psychopaths don't go after families of police officers? Why should superheroes get a free pass?

While police officers do not usually hide their identities, undercover cops do. As do secret agents of any group. There's no reason that superheroes couldn't be a licensed secret agent group.

The flaws were, basically, assuming that everyone with powers is going to want to be a registered hero, and assuming that this registration should require public knowledge. As long as the agency involved knows, that should really be good enough. The CIA certainly doesn't disclose everyone working for them, why should the whateverthehell Superhuman Agency do it?

[Gavin Sage]

Yeah, there are a lot of people throughout American history who shoudl have been shot for what they did. Just because a wrong has been performed in the past does not make it a right when performed in the present.

Indeed I couldn't agree more on this one statement (of course it doesn't particularly solve anything.



The Avengers have Tony Stark. He shouldn't be in charge of policing a toilet (as civil war proved). And look at the people who shot hulk into space.

Stark, Richards, and Strange were the people behind that. And Civil Warhas shown that Stark and Richards are idiots.

Of the Illuminati I would keep Xavier, and maybe Strange. Leave the oceans to Namor.

Only these are the people who you want to police themselves? They are for better or worse the leaders. Who else is there left. Doc Strange has never shown terribly much leadership, the Defenders could only loosely be called a team most of the time. Cap is the best in the field or other on-your-feet leadership roles, but Tony Stark is the guy who kept the Avengers running. Xavier has done such happy things as get a bunch of kids killed and then erase them from everyone's memory.

Who is there for the heroes to police themselves with?


Justice? Few heroes are paragons of justice. They generally keep people safe.

In a word: Punisher


And you have a choice in owning 10 stinger missiles. The vast majority of metahumans do not have that choice.

If I did, then I shouldn't simple as that.


SHRA is the same as Hitler (yes I suppose that may be a godwin) forcing the Jewish people to wear gold stars.

You know the second part of Goodwin's Law right? Nevermind the underlying reasoning...

[Nerd-o-rama]

You know the second part of Goodwin's Law right? Nevermind the underlying reasoning...
To be fair, Tony Stark mentioned the phrase "final solution" in regards to the Hulk recently. Technically, I think that means Iron Man loses the thread, or possibly whomever was the writer on that.

[Gavin Sage]

To be fair, Tony Stark mentioned the phrase "final solution" in regards to the Hulk recently. Technically, I think that means Iron Man loses the thread, or possibly whomever was the writer on that.

Nah because that's not an online debate. Besides at some level its not like "final solution" as a word is in and of itself an Goodwin. I'm not going to drag out my issues to check all the context though. Making the connection though....

[StickMan]

Bad so very bad. I can't wait for WWH. Die Stark Die.



Via La Revolution!!!

[Tallis]

I am of two minds on this subject. I believe the basic theory of registration is sound. Superpowered being are weapons in the same way that a boxer or a professional martial artist is a weapon, and they do have to register. The problem is that a lot of these people didn't have a choice in the matter. It's not training that has made them weapons, it's fate.
For those that chose to be superpowered the answer is obvious. You've made yourself a weapon, you must register just like anyone else who has done the same thing.
For those who did not choose it the question is hard. At what point does the safety of others supercede someone's right to privacy?
Anyone who chooses to be a superhero should be registered and should be required to join an official agency. Vigilantism is illegal.
Those who don't choose to use their powers have no need to join an agency. If their powers are benign there's really no need to register, but what if they are a clear and present danger? Bruce Banner didn't choose to be a superhero most of the time. He just lost control sometimes. When he did he destroyed billions of dollars of property and inevitably got people killed. I think it's pretty clear that he should be registered.
Now how do you determine who is powerful enough to be a danger and who isn't? There needs to be some sort of anonymus testing. If the power registers above a certain level registration should be required. Identities should not be made public, they should be guarded as securely as possible. But the people elected to protect the public need to know if there is a danger that they need to guard against.
Is this fair to the people that got their powers by accident and just want to live a normal life? Probably not. But then the CDC has the power to quarantine people that catch highly contagious diseases. Is that fair? Probably not, but there is a clear and present danger that the public must be protected from.
I do not believe in the superhuman draft. If someone doesn't want to be a superhero they shouldn't be forced to be one.
I know that once a system of registration is in place there is the potential for abuse. That is regrettable, but it does not outweigh the danger in my opinion.
This is not Hitler making the Jews where yellow stars. This is the government keeping track of living weapons the same as it tries to keep track of unliving ones. Wouldn't you want law-enforcement to know if your neighbor had a nuclear bomb? What if your neighbor himself was a nuclear bomb? What is the difference to you?

Now this is all based on real-world reasoning. I would've preferred they left it out of the comics.

[gatitcz]

I don't think it's a bad idea. Marvel tends to show it in the worst possible light, so it never gets much of a chance, but it's an attempt to address heroes acting independently with zero accountability. How many times have we seen "heroes" let off the hook for past crimes because of supposed reformation? Rogue, the second generation of Avengers, a bunch of FF allies...

Then you have the fact that it might help counter supervillains. It might set up a framework so that some people would never become supervillains and help people with dangerous powers so that they never hurt anyone else.

I don't agree with a superhero draft. But registration doesn't require one. That's an add-on that doesn't have to happen.

[Scientivore]

It's very difficult for me to talk about this without getting into politics so I'll just mention the admitted historical fact that Census microdata was used to round up Japanese-Americans during WWII (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleid=A4F4DED6-E7F2-99DF-32E46B0AC1FDE0FE). It's not an isolated incident. There are other well-documented historical examples of how our government has abused data nominally collected for other uses. Secretly abused. Not just secret operations -- secret policies, officially denied. Mmm...yeah, that's the limit of history, any further and I'd get into politics so I'll stop there.

[Xuincherguixe]

Even if implemented well, this would be a bad idea.


I've seen it compared to having a car or gun licence but there's a serious flaw with this. We do not licence people to live.

What about all those people who were born different? Or had some accident happen to them? So because some kind of super science experiment goes totally wrong and now all the sudden you can breath fire you now you have to get the okay of the system if you wish to continue to exist?

Do we force artists, or programmers, or cartoonists, or musicians to register with the government?

This is before getting into the specific problems with this specific act.


As mentioned by others, there's the simple fact you must identify yourself. This is in a world with hackers that are really borderline magic (Probably a number of actual magical hackers too). Who's to say that some super villain couldn't just hire one of them and kill your family since you stopped them from draining the powers mutant orphans and they're really pissed off about it.

And then there's the unquestionably wrong part that they can just draft you right there on the spot. Why should you, who draws their power from the anger of unrecognized disgruntled office workers fight the administrations current 'war' against civil disobedience?


I am all for registration of anyone who wants to be a super hero. That however is a completely different situation because this is a situation in which the person has a choice. It is not the system demanding conformity or else.

History is full of examples of why things like this are bad ideas. Some of them might seem well intentioned, but then I imagine a lot of the people who commit genocide believe they're doing the right thing too. People who are different are still people.

I wish I could say more, but there are rules about not talking about politics and since SHR is a reference to politics it logically follows. I guess I'll just leave at the act makes a firm statement that societies interests overrule the individuals.

[Jerthanis]

I think the SHRA is a bad thing if for no other reason than it makes the comics way less interesting. The idea of the duality of identity in comics is one of the chief draws. Making each character subservient to the government, to have the government say, "This is the law, enforce it this way" makes no distinction between the idea of a police officer and a superhero except in their superpowers. There's a reason that 90% of police dramas or action stories are about the police officers breaking the rules to do what's right. Stories are more interesting when the heroes are heroic, rather than when they're just doing their job.

Also, I'm getting really really sick of Iron Man popping into every other comic line and shooting lasers at everyone and going on like a broken record about how awesome the SHRA is, and how lame people who disagree with it are. It's really getting old.

Also, for as long as the SHRA is around we'll always be remembering Civil War and how lackluster a crossover event it was. Eventually people will get sick enough of the idea that it'll be put aside, and I'm hoping that happens sooner rather than later.

[kpenguin]

Don't forget also that a good number of superhumans aren't really superhuman at all. Are we really going to make everyone with peak athletic ability (Captain America) or scientific genius (Iron Man) or are good with arrows (Hawkeye) or guns (Punisher) to register with the government?

[Xuincherguixe]

Don't forget also that a good number of superhumans aren't really superhuman at all. Are we really going to make everyone with peak athletic ability (Captain America) or scientific genius (Iron Man) or are good with arrows (Hawkeye) or guns (Punisher) to register with the government?

One of the things about this as I understand is that it makes the assumption that 'super' is something that can be identified. It can't really, but it makes what the issues are clearer. Or at least in theory it could.

The SHRA has a lot of fuzz in it too making one wonder what the real statement is. Or if there even is one. Maybe Marvel is just doing things controversial to make money and doesn't feel like picking a side because it might make them look bad.


Civil War really did seem like it was a great idea in concept, but from what I understand was executed poorly. I've been looking into a bit picking up some trades anyways though.

An issue like this is best handled in a situation where things aren't so complicated with others. That is, leave it that the act is about registering alone. Or, that it was voluntary (much harder to have conflict there, but it also changes the debate considerably). It's no longer about Freedom vs Security, it's about flaws in systems. You can do both mind you, but this is about conflict.

[Hushdawg]

The SHRA has a lot of fuzz in it too making one wonder what the real statement is. Or if there even is one. Maybe Marvel is just doing things controversial to make money and doesn't feel like picking a side because it might make them look bad.


The real-world issue is the fact that a large number of politicians and right-wing journalists are demanding a similar registration system for Muslim-Americans.

The proposed registration would mean that Muslims living in the USA would have to carry special IDs, licence plates and have to register with a federal office anytime they wanted to travel, move or change their bank.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

[Dalenthas]

The SHRA is in of itself a good idea. One man's right to walk around beating up badguys does not overrule the rights of the people he causes collateral damage to in the process.

That being said: The writers made it seem like a bad idea because they wanted a big superhero fight. They made Tony (and a lot of other people) do outrageous and out of character things just so that there was a reason for the fight. Not to mention, that across different titles how it was enforced was depicted differently. In the main CW book, it implied that you couldn't be arrested until you attempted vigilantism. In the New Avengers book however, Luke Cage's house gets invaded at Midnight the night the act goes into effect. In the Spider-Man book there was strong emphasis that the choice to just stop being a superhero was an option.

[Tallis]

Don't forget also that a good number of superhumans aren't really superhuman at all. Are we really going to make everyone with peak athletic ability (Captain America) or scientific genius (Iron Man) or are good with arrows (Hawkeye) or guns (Punisher) to register with the government?

Iron Man makes himself superhuman whenever he puts on the armor. Hawkeye and Captain America choose to work as superheroes. They are all clear examples of people who should register. The Punisher is a mass murderer, but in no way superhuman. He would just get arrested. This is not to say that I dislike the Punisher, but realistically he crossed the line and hasn't looked back.
A better example would be Hank Pym when he was retired from being a superhero and was the West Coast Avengers' scientific advisor. He still had the Pym Particles, but wasn't using them to fight crime. Without them he was a normal human. Should he have to register? That's a tricky one.
I tend to say he should register the fact that he has the particles, the same as he would have to register a weapon, or a science lab has to be licensed for hazardous materials. He himself shouldn't have to register, but that's really only a technicality.

[Tallis]

The real-world issue is the fact that a large number of politicians and right-wing journalists are demanding a similar registration system for Muslim-Americans.

The proposed registration would mean that Muslims living in the USA would have to carry special IDs, licence plates and have to register with a federal office anytime they wanted to travel, move or change their bank.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

That's just twisted. Reminds me way to much of a certain europian country in the 30's and 40's.
The problem is that with CW there are other issues besides the rights of a minority group. A muslim poses no more inherent danger than anyone else. Someone who can knock down a mountain by looking at it clearly does. That has to be the difining factor here, is there a significant quantifiable threat? If the answer is yes, then registration should be required.

[Essex]

Don't forget also that a good number of superhumans aren't really superhuman at all. Are we really going to make everyone with peak athletic ability (Captain America) or scientific genius (Iron Man) or are good with arrows (Hawkeye) or guns (Punisher) to register with the government?

Captain America was superhuman. He was a 95 lb. weakling until the government dosed him with Super Soldier Serum and Vitarays. Most of his abilities increased to olympic level and I think his strength increased to the point where he could lift over ten tons.

Furthermore, I believe that the registration act applies to anybody with either superhuman powers or private access to equipment that is not available to the general public. Captain America would have qualified under the second criteria as well due to the exotic composition of his shield. Hawkeye would have qualified due to the nature of some of his trick arrows.

In one recent comic it is revealed that Iron Fist's lawyers are arguing in court that the Superhuman Registration Act doesn't apply to their client because Iron Fist is merely an absurdly capable martial artist whose body is already registered with the government as a deadly weapon.

[Hushdawg]

The problem is that with CW there are other issues besides the rights of a minority group. A muslim poses no more inherent danger than anyone else. Someone who can knock down a mountain by looking at it clearly does. That has to be the difining factor here, is there a significant quantifiable threat? If the answer is yes, then registration should be required.

Perhaps; but once one line is crossed, others become easier.

I can understand the superhero registration if it was JUST superheroes providing contact information. But as others have pointed out there are members of the FBI, CIA and Secret Service whose own families do not know who they work for because anonymity is key for the success of their work.

The level of disclosure required is too much. far too much.

[Essex]

1) In short, grow up- Drivers licenses, doctors certifications, gun licenses. There's no essential difference, when you do or want to do something dangerous everyone's safety demands accountablity.

The difference is that people CHOOSE to drive a car, become a doctor, or buy a gun. Peter Parker didn't choose to be bitten by a radioactive spider. Alani Ryan didn't choose to be born a mutant. Don't know who she is? That's because she is a background character in New X-Men. There is no indication that she has ever used her powers for vigilante activities yet the Superhuman Registration Act requires her to sign up despite the fundamental promise of EQUAL protection under the law.

Furthermore, the Superhuman Registration Act is not only a list of names and powers. The act allows the government to draft anybody who has signed up at any time. America doesn't even have to be at war. The draft doesn't even have to be in response to an actual emergency. Wonder Man and She-Hulk were both drafted after signing up. Failure to comply with the draft likely results in imprisonment. Failure to comply with your orders once drafted could be considered treason and therefore punishable by execution.

Given that, in real life, the President has repeatedly indicated that executive privilege places him beyond the reach of most laws (he had the Attorney General author a several hundred page legal document indicating that American soldiers can ignore the Geneva Conventions without being tried for war crimes if they're specifically authorized by the President) the Superhuman Registration Act theoretically allows the President to go on T.V., order every registered superhuman (of which there are thousands) to go to Iran and kill every man woman and child, and then proceed to execute any drafted superhuman who refuses to obey the order.

[....]

Tony Stark opposed the Mutant Registration Act.

Tony Stark endorses the SHRA, which is the same thing only bigger and better.

Tony Stark is running for president?

[Essex]

It's very difficult for me to talk about this without getting into politics so I'll just mention the admitted historical fact that Census microdata was used to round up Japanese-Americans during WWII (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleid=A4F4DED6-E7F2-99DF-32E46B0AC1FDE0FE). It's not an isolated incident. There are other well-documented historical examples of how our government has abused data nominally collected for other uses. Secretly abused. Not just secret operations -- secret policies, officially denied. Mmm...yeah, that's the limit of history, any further and I'd get into politics so I'll stop there.

You mean like the way that the RANDOM draft of the Vietnam conflict seemed to result in a statistically abnormal number of young men from minority groups being sent off to combat zones?

[Hushdawg]

You mean like the way that the RANDOM draft of the Vietnam conflict seemed to result in a statistically abnormal number of young men from minority groups being sent off to combat zones?

I am SO glad someone brought that up.

The official draft was a random lottery, but what most don't know is the unofficial draft involved armed forces "draft officers" knocking on the doors of every Afro-American house they could get to. Oddly those officers never showed up in the rich white neighborhoods.

The registration of any group of people allows that the government can decide what is done with them.

If you get a psychopath in office (like we currently have in the USA) in the Marvel Universe, then you can basically count on serious abuse of registered Superheroes to enforce the Regime's political agenda around the world.

*SO* glad Bush doesn't have a real Iron Man to be his bitch like Stark is to the unseen President of the Marvel Universe.

[Indon]

Realistically, I feel that registration is a good thing in and of itself, but would be readily abused.

Furthermore, I feel that it shouldn't be mandatory for just any metahuman, but only for those metahumans who want to employ their powers in certain ways (such as for profit, or in law enforcement; basically, getting a meta-job). Not just police officers, but if you're a guy whose super power is to generate Hoover Dam-levels of electricity, the government should know so that when all the power plants go out of business, they know why.


In terms of comic-book universes, it'd never work. Not interesting enough.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

See, Indon's idea is something that would be both feasible and good. Allow metahumans to officially sign up and agree to testing in order to practice superheroics, and maybe also keep a listing for known supervillains once they're convicted. It holds heroes accountable for their actions without being terribly unfair to metahumans as a whole.

[Scientivore]

If you're going to deputize superheroes with legal arrest powers then you should really make sure they have the proper training first, like a Super-Police Academy. They need to know the limits and proper use of that legal authority. They need to learn how to write good police reports. Trainers who can choose to not pass them need to validate "yes, he or she the individual the cadet has demonstrated mastery of good situational judgement and the appropriate use of force". And, yes, they need sensitivity training. I think that it would be irresponsible for society to confer that power on them without some reasonable attempt to train the ability (and validate the will) to use it well.

[Falkus]

The difference is that people CHOOSE to drive a car, become a doctor, or buy a gun. Peter Parker didn't choose to be bitten by a radioactive spider. Alani Ryan didn't choose to be born a mutant. Don't know who she is? That's because she is a background character in New X-Men. There is no indication that she has ever used her powers for vigilante activities yet the Superhuman Registration Act requires her to sign up despite the fundamental promise of EQUAL protection under the law.

I'm not talking about the thinly veiled fascist act going on in the comics, I'm talking about an ideal registration act in which all people with superhuman abilities would be required to register them with the government (much like I 'register' my hair color, eye color, car, house, place of employment, etc.), and that any superhuman wanting to be a superhero would have to be a properly trained member of a local or federal law enforcement agency.

[Scientivore]

I'm not talking about the thinly veiled fascist act going on in the comics, I'm talking about an ideal registration act in which all people with superhuman abilities would be required to register them with the government (much like I 'register' my hair color, eye color, car, house, place of employment, etc.) [snip]

Under what pretext? You're not required to register your hair color and eye color with the government, at least not in the U.S. It's not a "papers please" police state (yet). You have to provide them (along with your height and weight) in order to get a driver's license, which is purely voluntary. Cars are regulated for environmental impact. Real estate and employers are reported for tax purposes.

I can see maybe expanding the registration of deadly martial arts abilities to include deadly super powers. That would be a good parallel. Historical abuses of personal data to persecute the Other would still be a good argument against applying it to innate abilities that were involuntarily gained and cannot be given up. So, it would be reasonable and debatable.

[mudkip]

I think the real problem with registration is that in many cases it will never work because people will be too powerful or elusive to control and when forced to register against their will you will have large amounts of unnecessary destruction even if you have Superman level mutants backing you up. The only way to really neutralize the mutant threat is neutralize all threats in general by creating some super sentinels that patrol the entire word 24/7 with unbeatable powers and perfect programming and once you do that there will be very little freedom for anything that disagrees with the government and people will only act kindly towards others out of the extreme fear of being watched all the time. From there you might end up with a world that allows no violence on TV or "inappropriate" messages in music. Then the world would get pretty boring when everything is filtered and nothing is left to chance. This has happened in a number of alternate realities already and Civil War ended badly as well.

If the government ever manages to control mutants then people will inevitably try to use them as weapons of war and America seems to have the vast majority so I wouldn't be surprised if it tries to conquer the rest of the world which lead to countless problems and even greater corruption because with so few people making decisions one person could ruin the entire world. Divided into countries the world would actually run smoother.

Plain and simple registration would lead to extremism eventually which would make it more trouble than it's worth. If SHIELD already knows the vast majority of mutant identities and continues to gradually find more and store them secretly there's no reason why people should be outright forced to join.

[The Extinguisher]

Bad. Stupid and bad. I oppose it with every fibre of my being. It's completly stupid, and Stark is a moron.

[JonathanC]

I've written fair sized defenses of the idea of superhuman registration but I can keep this brief:

1) In short, grow up- Drivers licenses, doctors certifications, gun licenses. There's no essential difference, when you do or want to do something dangerous everyone's safety demands accountablity.

2) If wearing a mask gives you the right patrol around looking for people to beat up, then the KKK can beat up black people all they want. Yes that's harsh. Yes this is a fairly extreme example. But either way is vigilantism.
Vigilantes beat up criminals. The KKK dragged innocent people out of their homes and burned them to death. Way to trivialize historical atrocities. I'm guessing you're a white guy?



3) Heroes don't have to drop their secret identity under registration. The government can't keep them secret you say... well problem with that is SHIELD already knows who all of them are. And a piece of cloth is protection? Allies are better protection. So what exactly is your concern?

What about people who aren't heroes? Why should an accountant in Seattle who happened to get zapped by cosmic rays have to worry about AIM or HYDRA trying to kidnap and brainwash his ass because his name, address, powers, and family info are all registered in a government computer? Keep in mind that, here in the real world, the government can't even secure the Social Security numbers of troops. Some guy just *walked away* with a case full of personal info for a bunch of military veterans just a few years ago.

[Tallis]

Captain America was superhuman. He was a 95 lb. weakling until the government dosed him with Super Soldier Serum and Vitarays. Most of his abilities increased to olympic level and I think his strength increased to the point where he could lift over ten tons.

Captain America could lift 800 pounds. He was the peak of human perfection, not technically superhuman.

[Tallis]

Vigilantes beat up criminals. The KKK dragged innocent people out of their homes and burned them to death. Way to trivialize historical atrocities. I'm guessing you're a white guy?

Vigilantes beat up or kill people they judge to be criminals. There is no due process, just whatever the vigilante decides is right. The KKK decided it was right to terrorize and kill people that they thought were detrimental to society. Yes, they are psychos. No Spider-Man is not a psycho, but what if he breaks under the pressure? What if someone else decides to copy him and thinks killing people is okay? They're still doing what they think is right.
There needs to be some regulation of people that set themselves up in a position of authority over others. That's what superheroes do. They take it upon themselves to judge the people arround them and frequently to punish them. They don't make very many mistakes in the comics because they are the heroes of the story (though superhero fights over mistaken identity are inordinately common). If this were a real world and not just a fantasy universe the potential for mistakes or abuse would be unacceptable.
There was a character in the MU called the Supremicist. He was the villain of the story, but a hero of his country. He was also a raging bigot and would have been right at home in the KKK. Would you want him free to decide who's a criminal and who's not and punish those people as he saw fit?
Heros beat up criminals, but not all vigilantes are heros.
In case you're wondering, yes I am a white guy.

[kpenguin]

The thing is, most superheroes don't punish the offenders. They simply capture them, using whatever force necessary, and turn them over to the proper authorities. And by most, I mean nearly all. People like Punisher aren't superheroes. They're supervillians at worst and superanti-heroes at best. This is why I'd support an organization separate from the government that regulates and is run by superheroes. This organization would have the superpowered clout to enforce superheroing regulations without giving to much power to any single government.

[Scientivore]

I like it! Sounds like a cross between the IEEE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE), promoting the development of international standards for a profession; the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross), providing emergency assistance and disaster relief; and the Guardian Angels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels), providing a visible citizens' law enforcement patrol.

It could also include elements of Vatican City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City) since it would give them more leverage if they were also an independent nation with the right to have embassies and diplomats. Of course, no one would want their headquarters nearby the way Vatican City is embedded in Rome. Reason: supervillians.

[Culwch]

[...]
What about people who aren't heroes? Why should an accountant in Seattle who happened to get zapped by cosmic rays have to worry about AIM or HYDRA trying to kidnap and brainwash his ass because his name, address, powers, and family info are all registered in a government computer? Keep in mind that, here in the real world, the government can't even secure the Social Security numbers of troops. Some guy just *walked away* with a case full of personal info for a bunch of military veterans just a few years ago.

Aren't, say, accountants in Seattle in possession of sensitive materials being occassionally approached by criminals with bribes or threats of violence against them and their families if they do not cooperate?

I think I can fairly easy imagine a situation, where a "dormant" metahuman is approached by Hydra and asked to lend their superpowers to their cause, whether by bribe, misdirection, threats or ideology.

Not all spies, terrorists and criminals are born in the forest and raised with the wolves, you know. Some used to be perfectly normal citizens, accountants, students, doctors, housewives - until they were approached and inducted into the Evil Organisation of the Week.

Having said that, and not being an expert on the current Civil War story arc, I object the SHRA. If at all, it should work like with the special agencies: the list of members is a closely guarded secret.

[Solo]

The real-world issue is the fact that a large number of politicians and right-wing journalists are demanding a similar registration system for Muslim-Americans.

The proposed registration would mean that Muslims living in the USA would have to carry special IDs, licence plates and have to register with a federal office anytime they wanted to travel, move or change their bank.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

Brilliant idea.

In the spirit of things, we should also make the Mulsims wear a yellow crescent moon patch on their clothing.

[kpenguin]

It could also include elements of Vatican City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City) since it would give them more leverage if they were also an independent nation with the right to have embassies and diplomats. Of course, no one would want their headquarters nearby the way Vatican City is embedded in Rome. Reason: supervillians.

Meh, as if New York isn't already leveled three times a month by some supervillian or other. I'm using hyperbole, by the way, so don't bother correcting me.

Anyway, becoming an independent nation would be nice if they truly wanted to remain separate from other nations since some countries don't allow dual citizenship.

Expanding on the idea, I would also allow for government superheroes to join the organization as liaisons from their respective nations. I'd also want the organization, if it becomes an independent nation, to have a non-member observation status within the UN.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Didn't the last "nation for metahumans" get blown the hell up? Although clearly, what we're talking about here is a nominal nation-state that simply allows metahuman heroes to operate on equal footing with national governments, much like the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (which is a sovereign state with no official territory, though their government operates from Rome) (Not to be confused with the Republic of Malta, an island nation in the Mediterranean.)

[kpenguin]

Didn't the last "nation for metahumans" get blown the hell up? Although clearly, what we're talking about here is a nominal nation-state that simply allows metahuman heroes to operate on equal footing with national governments, much like the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (which is a sovereign state with no official territory, though their government operates from Rome) (Not to be confused with the Republic of Malta, an island nation in the Mediterranean.)

I assume you're referring to Genosha? Any nation can be invaded and destroyed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

(The SMOM can't :P)

Yes, I meant Genosha, and I was referencing the fact that it was invaded and mostly destroyed specifically because it was governed by and a safe haven for mutants. And possibly because everyone hates Magneto. Certainly, it could happen to any micronation (except probably Latveria.)

[Hushdawg]

Brilliant idea.

In the spirit of things, we should also make the Mulsims wear a yellow crescent moon patch on their clothing.

I'm assuming next you'll want Muslim-Americans to go into "relocation centers" or "reservations" then?

[kpenguin]

Latveria is a good counterexample. Everyone knows how much Doom, his minions and his army of Doombots are a big threat to world security, but no nation dares openly attack it because Doom is so freakin' powerful. Now imagine a micronation inhabited and protected by the world's most powerful heroes. A nation full of people who are able to wipe the floor with Doom regularly. A nation that has technology beyond the dreams of mortal men. A nation that the very gods themselves would be willing to defend.

[SteveMB]

Civil War really did seem like it was a great idea in concept, but from what I understand was executed poorly.
That's the impression I get from what I've seen of it (which doesn't inspire me to make an effort to track down the rest).

I've seen reviews indicating lack of clarity on some rather basic points (such as the whole "What defines 'super'?" issue you mention), which blunts some of the more interesting story hooks that could have been generated by the concept.

[Solo]

I'm assuming next you'll want Muslim-Americans to go into "relocation centers" or "reservations" then?
We'll have to use trains to transport them all.

[kpenguin]

We'll have to use trains to transport them all.

We might as well throw their sympathizers onto the trains as well. We want to protect them from a hostile public, right?

[Dalenthas]

Hushdawg, please stop with the holocost referencing. The SHRA is nothing like what Hitler did to the Jews, and we're definately not going to do anything remotely similar to Muslims anytime soon. If we did, there'd be a revolution. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that several characters that opposed the Mutant Registration Act and supported the SHRA was because it was less prejudiced: it affects all superheros equally, it doesn't single out any specific group. And like I said before, depending on which comics you read you get different interpretations as to how the SHRA is supposed to be enforced. It is strongly implied that only unregistered people actively commiting vigilante actions are breaking the law in some places. Spider-Man and Arana both discuss the possibility of simply quitting, and Firestar actually quits instead of registering. The problem comes with certain other comics trying to make Iron Man look like a monumental douche and invading Luke Cage's house at the stroke of midnight. That's the problem with these giant crossovers, different writers interpret the same thing (the SHRA, in this case) wildly differntly. I'd also like to point out that every super hero they catch is given the opportunity to register instead of go to prison if they wish. And the only person who has full access to the list of registered heros is the director of SHIELD, currently Tony Stark. Secret identities are allowed under the SHRA.

Also, the draft someone mentioned isn't part of the SHRA itself, but rather specific examples of SHIELD blackmailling registered heros. It's an example of the corruption that Tony is trying to get rid of by becoming the head of SHIELD.

[trollhammeren]

one of the reasons that several characters that opposed the Mutant Registration Act and supported the SHRA was because it was less prejudiced: it affects all superheros equally, it doesn't single out any specific group.

This makes sense since heroes like Captain America and Iron Man were, for lack of a better word, endorsed by the government even though they would cause catastorphic amounts of damage, while the X-Men were put under surveillance, others still were sent into hiding, ie The Punisher (I know hes kind of a bad example cause he did kill some people he fought) and some were just left alone and it only needed people who used their powers, ie metahumans, to register, rather than every single person mutant.

Just to go a tiny bit off, what do people think of the idea of the Thor clone?

[Somebloke]

Latveria is a good counterexample. Everyone knows how much Doom, his minions and his army of Doombots are a big threat to world security, but no nation dares openly attack it because Doom is so freakin' powerful. Now imagine a micronation inhabited and protected by the world's most powerful heroes. A nation full of people who are able to wipe the floor with Doom regularly. A nation that has technology beyond the dreams of mortal men. A nation that the very gods themselves would be willing to defend.
One word.

Genosha.

Actually, two...Inhumans and their ever-changing 'sanctuary'.

Wait! Three! That Morlock/Gene nation settlement in Africa that got constantly assaulted by anti-mutant troops.

[JonathanC]

Vigilantes beat up or kill people they judge to be criminals. There is no due process, just whatever the vigilante decides is right. The KKK decided it was right to terrorize and kill people that they thought were detrimental to society. Yes, they are psychos. No Spider-Man is not a psycho, but what if he breaks under the pressure? What if someone else decides to copy him and thinks killing people is okay? They're still doing what they think is right.
There needs to be some regulation of people that set themselves up in a position of authority over others. That's what superheroes do. They take it upon themselves to judge the people arround them and frequently to punish them. They don't make very many mistakes in the comics because they are the heroes of the story (though superhero fights over mistaken identity are inordinately common). If this were a real world and not just a fantasy universe the potential for mistakes or abuse would be unacceptable.
There was a character in the MU called the Supremicist. He was the villain of the story, but a hero of his country. He was also a raging bigot and would have been right at home in the KKK. Would you want him free to decide who's a criminal and who's not and punish those people as he saw fit?
Heros beat up criminals, but not all vigilantes are heros.
In case you're wondering, yes I am a white guy.
While vigilantism and lynch mobs are related concepts, they are not the same thing, and making such a ridiculous comparison trivializes the suffering of people who were victims of the KKK. To put it another way, as a white guy, would you make a similar analogy to the nazis? Or is it only okay to trivialize the suffering of non-white people?

[Dalenthas]

I hate to backseat Mod, but please stop with the real world politics discussion. We're trying to have a nice conversation about a fictional act in a fictional world. So no more concentration camps or lynch mobs, ok?

[Essex]

Hushdawg, please stop with the holocost referencing. The SHRA is nothing like what Hitler did to the Jews, and we're definately not going to do anything remotely similar to Muslims anytime soon. If we did, there'd be a revolution. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that several characters that opposed the Mutant Registration Act and supported the SHRA was because it was less prejudiced: it affects all superheros equally, it doesn't single out any specific group.

It wasn't equal at first. After the M-Day storyline the government herded every mutant that they could find onto the X-Men's property and surrounded the place with Sentinels (mutant killing giant robots) for their own safety. It took hundreds of mutant refugees escaping from this protective custody for the President to give in to pressure and decide that the government would put all mutant identities on the SHRA list and treat them in the same manner as other superbeings. Even after the fact the X-Men still find their home surrounded by giant robots that spy on their every action. Uncanny X-Men 469 showed a government surveilance truck using their scanners to spy on one of the X-Men as she showered. The same issue has the government secretly spying on the character as she spoke with a psychiatrist.

[Essex]

Also, the draft someone mentioned isn't part of the SHRA itself, but rather specific examples of SHIELD blackmailling registered heros. It's an example of the corruption that Tony is trying to get rid of by becoming the head of SHIELD.

Actually, it is part of the SHRA. I believe it was in the first issue of the new Wonder Man series that he was told that he'd be training new heroes. When he tried stating that he was just a private citizen he was told something along the lines of 'read the fine print.'

Also, the entire Civil War story came about after the government tried to get Captain America to hunt down anti-registration heroes. When Captain America refused a SHIELD anti-superhero squad promptly drew weapons on him and were ordered to attack. He told them to stand down because their orders were illegal. They fired on him anyway and he kicked their butts before escaping.

[JonathanC]

I hate to backseat Mod, but please stop with the real world politics discussion. We're trying to have a nice conversation about a fictional act in a fictional world. So no more concentration camps or lynch mobs, ok?
Seems like that would be a little difficult, given that we're discussing a fictional world where they've passed a law that lets them grab anyone who happens to have superpowers and either forcibly train them for military action (see Avengers: The Initiative), or detain them indefinitely in a secret prison fortress located in another dimension, refusing them legal counsel, trial, or even visitation by loved ones.

Or, to put it another way: stop trying to be a backseat Mod. :smallsigh:

[Hushdawg]

Hushdawg, please stop with the holocost referencing. The SHRA is nothing like what Hitler did to the Jews, and we're definately not going to do anything remotely similar to Muslims anytime soon. If we did, there'd be a revolution.


Actually if you'll look back none of my comments have referenced the holocaust. Others have made the references about trains, the excuse to "protect them from a hostile public" and the yellow emblems. My references have been directly targeting the kind of facist crap that the United States did to Japanese Americans during WWII and what the Israeli government has done to Palestinians since the 1940s.

It all starts with registration. Like a deadly virus carried by a fuzzy bunny.



As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that several characters that opposed the Mutant Registration Act and supported the SHRA was because it was less prejudiced: it affects all superheros equally, it doesn't single out any specific group.


You keep missing the point. it does not just target Superheroes, it targets EVERYONE who has some sort of power different from "normal" humans.

If you noticed in Civil War, they manipulated people into doing things that they did not choose to do by using the background information and blackmailing them. There again is another reason to allow a degree of anonymity. Do superheroes need some form of registration? absolutely. Should they be forced to give full disclosure about their personal life? absolutely not. When you have globe-trotting supercriminal terrorists as enemies, is it really wise to have a government agency with access to all your details? Especially considering how many people would then have access to the information.



Also, the draft someone mentioned isn't part of the SHRA itself, but rather specific examples of SHIELD blackmailling registered heros. It's an example of the corruption that Tony is trying to get rid of by becoming the head of SHIELD.

Hard to get rid of corruption when you're part of the problem.
That's like Bush saying that he's going to fix the incompetency of his regime.

[Hushdawg]

I hate to backseat Mod, but please stop with the real world politics discussion. We're trying to have a nice conversation about a fictional act in a fictional world. So no more concentration camps or lynch mobs, ok?

Did you read Civil War: Frontline? If so you would understand that Marvel had every intention of mirroring the real world with this fictional endeavor.

[Flakey]

I stopped reading comics a few years back, but looking at this thread it seems impossible to use the comics as a guide to your arguments, because different threads treated the act differently. If Marvel can not even get it consistent between the different comics this is not a reliable guide to go on. :smallbiggrin:

Ohhh theroretically I would support a registration, and training of any superhero that wanted to fight crime, or any super power person caught breakinga law above the trival level. No use crying about how villians gained access to your information. You should have considered that before you put on a pair of tights.

Slightly off track, but kind of pertinent to the topic. Given the number of flunkies some supervillans have around. How some of these people have retained thier secret identies is remarkable. Have 20 odd people linked with cell phones and several weeks of observations (non intrusive but watching from the streets)), and I probably could identify most of them.

[Tallis]

The thing is, most superheroes don't punish the offenders. They simply capture them, using whatever force necessary, and turn them over to the proper authorities. And by most, I mean nearly all. People like Punisher aren't superheroes. They're supervillians at worst and superanti-heroes at best. This is why I'd support an organization separate from the government that regulates and is run by superheroes. This organization would have the superpowered clout to enforce superheroing regulations without giving to much power to any single government.

Most mainstream superheroes don't punish offenders most of the time. How many have crossed the line on occassion though? How much damage has been caused and how many lives have been lost when they've fought? This is what finally convinced Captain America to surrender, the damage caused by his last battle with Iron Man. If I remember correctly 22 bystanders were killed in that battle. All the participants were "superheroes".
More importantly, not all superhumans are heroes. Many of them do not have other peoples best interests at heart. Some of them just can't controil their powers and are an inherent danger to those arround them.

[Tallis]

While vigilantism and lynch mobs are related concepts, they are not the same thing, and making such a ridiculous comparison trivializes the suffering of people who were victims of the KKK. To put it another way, as a white guy, would you make a similar analogy to the nazis? Or is it only okay to trivialize the suffering of non-white people?

First of all your leap of illogic is rediculous. I am offended by your implication that I am a racist.
Second, before they were elected to power , yes I would make the same analogy to Nazis. Their ideals were practically identicle to the KKK. To be clear: after they came to power they were by definition no longer vigilantes, but they were still just as wrong.
Third, how is this trivializing anything?
Fourth:
"Brown (1975) attempted to define vigilantism, saying it represented "morally sanctimonious" behavior aimed at rectifying or remedying a "structural flaw" in society, with the flaw usually being some place where the law was ineffective or not enforced. This is a complex socio-legal definition. It treats vigilantism as a societal reaction and not as a social movement. It also implies that the phenomenon of vigilantism will be short-lived since once a flaw is remedied, there is no reason to continue, and in any event, "sanctimonious" morality is unlikely to be sustainable. For criminological purposes, this definition treats the vigilante the same as the criminal. Both are victims of the same social forces, the same "structural flaw," and vigilantes are the victim of a flawed society in the same way a criminal can be considered a victim of society. The difference, of course, is that the criminal is an enemy of society while the vigilante acts as a friend of society. The notion that VIGILANTES ARE VICTIMS of society seems to be a dominant thrust in criminological thought on the subject.

"Political scientists (Rosenbaum and Sedberg 1976) and psychologists (Marx and Archer 1976) have serious disagreements over the definition of vigilantism. Political scientists are much more likely to categorize it as a subtype of political violence (i.e. "establishment violence") and would treat hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan as vigilantes."
from- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/300/300lect10.htm

So yes, lynch mobs are a form of vigilantism. Including the KKK. Not all vigilantism is a good thing. Thats why there needs to be regulation.

[Tallis]

Do superheroes need some form of registration? absolutely. Should they be forced to give full disclosure about their personal life? absolutely not. When you have globe-trotting supercriminal terrorists as enemies, is it really wise to have a government agency with access to all your details? Especially considering how many people would then have access to the information.

I agree with this one hundred percent.
I do not agree with the way the SHRA was enforced in the marvel universe. But the basic idea of licensing people to be superheroes is valid. As is keeping track of legitimate dangers to society. Defining what is and is not a legitimate threat is the tricky part, and the first opportunity for the extremists to abuse the law.
I realize that this act has the potential to lead to some really bad things. It already has in the MU. That does not change the fact that the act in and of itself is justified in my opinion.

[kpenguin]

Most mainstream superheroes don't punish offenders most of the time. How many have crossed the line on occassion though? How much damage has been caused and how many lives have been lost when they've fought? This is what finally convinced Captain America to surrender, the damage caused by his last battle with Iron Man. If I remember correctly 22 bystanders were killed in that battle. All the participants were "superheroes".
More importantly, not all superhumans are heroes. Many of them do not have other peoples best interests at heart. Some of them just can't controil their powers and are an inherent danger to those arround them.

Which is why there should be an organization run by superheroes to regulate superhumans. It would put down defined regulations onto superhumans without giving too much power to any one government.

Also, not all superhumans are dangerous. A common argument for registering the average Joe who happens to be a mutie or fall into a vat of radioactive waste is to eliminate their danger to society, but what about people like Cypher whose abilities pose no threat to the public. Should we force them to register even though they pose no more threat than the average citizen?

[Solo]

I agree with this one hundred percent.
I do not agree with the way the SHRA was enforced in the marvel universe. But the basic idea of licensing people to be superheroes is valid. As is keeping track of legitimate dangers to society. Defining what is and is not a legitimate threat is the tricky part, and the first opportunity for the extremists to abuse the law.

Quick question, but what defines "superhuman"?

Wolverine is obviously qualified to be registered, but what about someone who's just really strong and good at fighting? Or maybe someone who's just a terrific shot with a gun?*

Do the last two count under the SHRA despite not having "superpowers"?


*For example, Jerry Miculek is a speed shooter and competition shooting instructor. He is renowned as the fastest revolver shooter on the planet, emptying a five-shot revolver in 0.57 seconds, in a group the size of a playing card. Miculek currently holds five world records in exhibition revolver shooting, along with numerous national and world shooting titles.

[Hushdawg]

Quick question, but what defines "superhuman"?

Wolverine is obviously qualified to be registered, but what about someone who's just really strong and good at fighting? Or maybe someone who's just a terrific shot with a gun?*

Do the last two count under the SHRA despite not having "superpowers"?


*For example, Jerry Miculek is a speed shooter and competition shooting instructor. He is renowned as the fastest revolver shooter on the planet, emptying a five-shot revolver in 0.57 seconds, in a group the size of a playing card. Miculek currently holds five world records in exhibition revolver shooting, along with numerous national and world shooting titles.

Check out how Iron Fist is dealing with this now. He is basically a highly trained martial artist and has no actual superhuman abilities, he is just the absolute peak of human performance. The SHRA wants him to register and he is fighting it in court.

[Hushdawg]

Hushdawg, please stop with the holocost referencing. The SHRA is nothing like what Hitler did to the Jews, and we're definately not going to do anything remotely similar to Muslims anytime soon. If we did, there'd be a revolution.

I meant to add here that the threat to do this to Muslim-Americans is very real as many congressmen have been drafting these resolutions and bills and riders to bills which would demand this very thing.

It's not just a few whackjob right-wing extremists like Rush Limbaugh that are touting this concept, it is people IN OFFICE.

Granted, most of them are part of the Bush Regime, but that doesn't make them any less threatening... if anything it makes them more so.

The sad thing is that at this stage I doubt that Bush would veto such a bill if it touched his desk.

There may be a revolution, but according to the USA PATRIOT act such a revolution would constitute terrorism and everyone involved would be treated as a terrorist.

[kpenguin]

Where is the line drawn?

"Ma'am, we're taking your son to be registered. He works for us now"
"What? He isn't a mutie. He's just a kid!"
"But he's a good football player and very athletic. He could use his peak physical health for vigilantism."
"But-"
"Sorry ma'am, but you supported the SHRA. right?"

This example is a bit extreme, but you get my point. Under some interpretations of the SHRA, we could have the government registering martial arts masters, scientists, billionaires, eagle scouts, and Olympic athletes.

[Hushdawg]

Where is the line drawn?

"Ma'am, we're taking your son to be registered. He works for us now"
"What? He isn't a mutie. He's just a kid!"
"But he's a good football player and very athletic. He could use his peak physical health for vigilantism."
"But-"
"Sorry ma'am, but you supported the SHRA. right?"

This example is a bit extreme, but you get my point. Under some interpretations of the SHRA, we could have the government registering martial arts masters, scientists, billionaires, eagle scouts, and Olympic athletes.

It may be a bit of a hyperbole, but it is definitely a real threat. Look at how far things have gotten with the lawsuits being won in "sexual harassment" cases where it was nothing more than one person being offended at another person's joke. Granted, I'm not saying that X person should be able to say Y thing that is crude or derogatory toward the other gender; but I think the kinds of fines people get for words is way out of hand. All this started in an interest to help and protect people from harassment and discrimination and now it is WAY out of hand.

Consider Stephen Hawking, the man is brilliant beyond belief. His mind works like nothing people have seen in the modern age, what is to prevent someone like him from being snatched up by the SHRA and forced to use his mental prowess to create weapons of war than develop science used for exploration and discovery?

[kpenguin]

Well, Stephen Hawking is British and the SHRA only affects US Residents, but your fears are true. A corrupt or unscrupulous official might use the SHRA as an excuse to snatch up as many brains as he can.

[Tallis]

Which is why there should be an organization run by superheroes to regulate superhumans. It would put down defined regulations onto superhumans without giving too much power to any one government.

Also, not all superhumans are dangerous. A common argument for registering the average Joe who happens to be a mutie or fall into a vat of radioactive waste is to eliminate their danger to society, but what about people like Cypher whose abilities pose no threat to the public. Should we force them to register even though they pose no more threat than the average citizen?

The people that regulate the superhumans should be elected by the public, including human and superhuman. Many people here have talked about how the government is untrustworthy. In an uncomfortable number of cases that is true. However, it just doesn't make sense to have a group that is solely self-regulating. The threat of abuse is even greater.
I highly recommend reading The Watchmen. It is a great comic and illustrates the reason why outside regulation is necessary very well.

[Tallis]

Quick question, but what defines "superhuman"?

Wolverine is obviously qualified to be registered, but what about someone who's just really strong and good at fighting? Or maybe someone who's just a terrific shot with a gun?*

Do the last two count under the SHRA despite not having "superpowers"?


*For example, Jerry Miculek is a speed shooter and competition shooting instructor. He is renowned as the fastest revolver shooter on the planet, emptying a five-shot revolver in 0.57 seconds, in a group the size of a playing card. Miculek currently holds five world records in exhibition revolver shooting, along with numerous national and world shooting titles.

As I stated in an earlier post, there needs to be a set threshold. Even minor superhumans should not have to register. There is a precedent in comics for power level classifications (class 1-5 mutants, omega level mutants). Clearly, there must be a way of testing this. Class 1, as I understand it, shouldn't need to register. Class 2 maybe, class and up, yes.

There are different kinds of registration for people that are just really good martial artists, and I'll bet Jerry Miculek is required to have a gun license. Don't you think?

[Tallis]

It may be a bit of a hyperbole, but it is definitely a real threat. Look at how far things have gotten with the lawsuits being won in "sexual harassment" cases where it was nothing more than one person being offended at another person's joke. Granted, I'm not saying that X person should be able to say Y thing that is crude or derogatory toward the other gender; but I think the kinds of fines people get for words is way out of hand. All this started in an interest to help and protect people from harassment and discrimination and now it is WAY out of hand.

Hush, I have agreed with almost everything you've said in your posts. In a lot of ways we think alike.
We're just debating different parts of the issue. I am only talking about the basic idea of the SHRA being reasonable. It is up to the public to make sure it does not get abused. Unfortunately our record so far is not good, but hopefully enough people are aware enough and can think for themselves enough to avoid the abuses of the past. That may very well be hoping for too much. I know I've considered moving to Canada so I can live in a free country again. But I like to think the American people would stop it before it goes too far.
As it is being prosecuted in the MU right now the bill is abusive, but a toned down version would be reasonable.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Insanely abusive. It certainly shouldn't include everyone "superhuman", that's such a wide range. I can understand, and would thoroughly support, heroes registering so that they can be held accountable for their actions, and a lengthy database for every superhuman convicted of a crime. Basically, if you've decided to utilize your powers/gifts in any way that isn't private or legal, you should be regulated. This regulation, however, shouldn't have the power to draft registered heroes nor do anything innately against their freedom. Perhaps any registered superhumans with powers that are a clear and present danger to themselves and/or those around them should be required to submit to training, but that's as far as I'd be willing to press the freedoms they rightly deserve as American citizens.

[Indon]

Basically, if you've decided to utilize your powers/gifts in any way that isn't private or legal, you should be regulated.

Unless you include corporate/business use in 'any way that isn't private or legal', I respectfully disagree.

Many individual superhumans have the ability to potentially revolutionize an applicable industry, causing economic chaos on a global scale. That sort of thing needs, if not checks, then at least public awareness.

[Flakey]

Look at how far things have gotten with the lawsuits being won in "sexual harassment" cases where it was nothing more than one person being offended at another person's joke.


Not touched on so far is this state of the western world (well US and Britain atleast) regarding lawsuits. "The Incredibles" did it, but as far as I am aware no comic has really atempted to address it, because of its implications. I think all unregistered vigalente superheros would be hit with so many lawsuits that the police would have to take an active hunt for them, not just give them a friendly wave as they drop off the villans. Therefore registration not only becomes desirable by the government, but as a defense mechanism by the super heros themselves.

Ones like the Punisher would not care anyway, but a lot of semi offical ones like spiderman etc etc, would have to give up or sign up.

[Hushdawg]

Hush, I have agreed with almost everything you've said in your posts. In a lot of ways we think alike.


THAT'S where the other part of my brain went! I've been missing it for ages!
BTW, I agree, your arguments have been very rational and it's almost like a moderate liberal debating a moderate conservative on an issue. :)



We're just debating different parts of the issue. I am only talking about the basic idea of the SHRA being reasonable. It is up to the public to make sure it does not get abused. Unfortunately our record so far is not good, but hopefully enough people are aware enough and can think for themselves enough to avoid the abuses of the past. That may very well be hoping for too much. I know I've considered moving to Canada so I can live in a free country again. But I like to think the American people would stop it before it goes too far.
As it is being prosecuted in the MU right now the bill is abusive, but a toned down version would be reasonable.

I agree that a toned-down version of the SHRA would be just fine. Something that addresses the concerns raised here and doesn't lend itself to an easy oppressive stance.

Individual people do tend to think well enough to not allow thoughts and deeds to get out of hand. The problem is that we are living in what is a "Politic of Fear" generated after the windfall of 9/11 and perpetuated by the Bush Regime. I spent some time last fall discussing this with former Congressman Paul Findley and current Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. They both see the problems that I've already outlined here but the problem is that most of the people in office (at the time anyway) believed in the sacrifice of the freedom of a group of citizens in order to secure the vision and security of the United States that they wanted to uphold.

Likewise, when you have a situation such as the SHRA it is subject to the ruling party and its inherient fluctuations. There should be accountability for Superheroes who are actively policing, but we have to be careful that such accountability does not force the heroes to act on political agendas.

Incidentally I am leaving the country in September. My wife is still in the Philippines and I'm going to live there until we have a new president. By then all her citizenship stuff will be complete and we'll move back here.

[Essex]

I highly recommend reading The Watchmen. It is a great comic and illustrates the reason why outside regulation is necessary very well.

How does Watchmen apply? In Watchmen the Nixon government outlawed vigilante crimefighters. Afterwards there were only three costumed heroes left. One was an insane vigilante and the other two were government employees (one of whom is a known rapist, is suspected of secretly murdering another hero, and is suspected of executing Woodward and Bernstein before they could bring down the Nixon administration with their Watergate investigation). How is this an argument for regulation?

Perhaps you are referring to the individual who was responsible for the surprise ending of the series? If so then your argument still does nothing to support a call for regulation. All of that individual's crimes were commited as a non-costumed private citizen. Registering crimefighters would have done nothing to stop him.

[Epiphany]

first post, wooh
Anyway the main problem with the superhuman registration act is how it is being enforced, anyone with superhuman abilities is snapped up and being trained to kill. If you read the initiative they seem to have set up a camp where anyone with powers is being trained to kill enemies of the state, a young girl who can fly and only wants to enjoy it is drafted in with the threat that if she doesnt do well in her training she will be stripped of her powers, its just stupid. Nevermind the camp has a crazy nazi super scientist, its the most clumsy expansion of registration is evil ever.

[Tallis]

How does Watchmen apply? In Watchmen the Nixon government outlawed vigilante crimefighters. Afterwards there were only three costumed heroes left. One was an insane vigilante and the other two were government employees (one of whom is a known rapist, is suspected of secretly murdering another hero, and is suspected of executing Woodward and Bernstein before they could bring down the Nixon administration with their Watergate investigation). How is this an argument for regulation?

Perhaps you are referring to the individual who was responsible for the surprise ending of the series? If so then your argument still does nothing to support a call for regulation. All of that individual's crimes were commited as a non-costumed private citizen. Registering crimefighters would have done nothing to stop him.

That is why I think registration is a good idea. So that abuses like that could be addressed and hopefully avoided. These people should be in jail, not roaming the streets with impunity. Registration, with oversight, might have uncovered their crimes and seen them punished for them. As for the suprise villain, you're right, it probably wouldn't have helped in that instance, but it might help in similar situations. I'd rather there be a slim chance than basically no chance.

Viscount: Well put.

Hush: My dad would love to hear that someone considers me conservative. :)
You are correct on all points. I still have hope for the people to wake up and set things right though. As you said, there are still good people in government, we just have to get enough people to help push the bad ones out.
Good luck in the Philipines. I hope your return sees this country a better place.

[Solo]

There are different kinds of registration for people that are just really good martial artists, and I'll bet Jerry Miculek is required to have a gun license. Don't you think?
No.

You don't need a gun license to own a gun in most parts of the US. State and Federal laws*.

Only places that require you to own a gun license in order to own a handgun - off the top of my head - are California, Illinois, Massachusetts and maybe Maryland.



*Bless them.

[Hushdawg]

No.

You don't need a gun license to own a gun in most parts of the US. State and Federal laws*.

Only places that require you to own a gun license in order to own a handgun - off the top of my head - are California, Illinois, Massachusetts and maybe Maryland.



*Bless them.

Yep, I'm all for maintaining the conceal and carry permits for handguns though. It ensures that people who have handguns in their cars or pocketbooks or even on their person have taken gun safety courses and are OK to use the handgun. It also keeps a record of the individual, basic contact info and the serial numbers of the weapons owned.

"If you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns." is a true enough adage; but some control has to be levied.

I think this is where the SHRA should be more moderate insomuch that those who are vigilantes should provide some form of basic contact info with the authorities (Like Batman does).

It provides a measure of accountability without compromising the safety of the hero and his family.

[GoC]

You know the comparison between Superheroes and undercover detectives or FBI isn't valid due to the power level involved.
The undercover agent is rarely going to have anyone actively trying to find out who he is and even if he did their enemies aren't likely to send 20 guys to machine gun his house (unless he brought down the head capo or something).
With superheroes however there are numerous people looking to find them out and most would be quite willing to kill the heroes family for revenge. The problem gets worse the more powerful the superhero and for most of the high powered ones unless a lot of cash is spent on protection, their loved ones would all be dead within a couple of weeks.


"If you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns." is a true enough adage; but some control has to be levied.
The entire UK being the perfect counter example.

[Tallis]

No.

You don't need a gun license to own a gun in most parts of the US. State and Federal laws*.

Only places that require you to own a gun license in order to own a handgun - off the top of my head - are California, Illinois, Massachusetts and maybe Maryland.



*Bless them.

I'll take your word for it that you're mostly right, but you can at least add New York and Ohio to your list. I've lived in both and they do require permits.

[Solo]

Right. And those two states.

[kpenguin]

The entire UK being the perfect counter example.

Wait... what? Counterexample of what? Guns are legal in the UK, if memory serves, although there is tight regulation.

[jazz1m]

Hmmm an interesting concept and pretty much a very important debate. What matters the most is how the government chooses to use such information and exert their power over said superhumans. Besides this of course, will there then be more fear towards the superhumans due to this registration act? Sure, normal people won't know who the superhumans are, but just the installation of said act can create fear in people. Like, oh no, all these superhumans must be dangerous, otherwise, why do they have to register with the government? This in turn could lead to more discrimination.

On the other hand, this act would allow the government to keep an eye on superhumans that have violent tendencies or do not have control of their powers. It could keep citizens safer. It's a difficult choice, and there is not one clear answer of is it good or bad, much like most things in life.

Outlawing guns, well is not a possibility I would say in the US. But as Chris Rock said, and I'm paraphrasing, just make the bullets really expensive.

[Hushdawg]

Outlawing guns, well is not a possibility I would say in the US. But as Chris Rock said, and I'm paraphrasing, just make the bullets really expensive.

I *LOVE* that bit!

"Hell, you know he did somethin' to get shot. They done put $750,000 worth of bullets in him!"

or something like that.

:D

I do agree that certain types of weapons should be reserved for law enforcement and military use only; but as Americans we should have the ability and right to protect ourselves and go hunting whenever we please.

One big thing that a lot of people who are anti-gun never consider is the fact that in the cities you may have police all over the place and they will respond and such. However in the rural areas you often face the very real prospect of an hour or more wait for police to arrive.

Additionally, even if I am in the city and someone breaks into my house with the intent to kill me I should be able to defend myself and my family.

I am not required (in most states) to have a license to own a firearm; but once I use it, the police will have the right to take it from me while investigating the situation.

Could something like that be done with Superheroes?

[Emperor Tippy]

The problem is the government is bluffing. They really don't have the power to enforce compliance with the act on the real power houses.

Even in Civil War, while they got big names fighting for and against it, the real power houses stayed out of it.

What happens when the government passes the act and Xavier decides not to comply? He can make you forget ever thinkign about passing it.

Or Magneto? He created a world wide EMP.

Phoenix? Silver Surfer? The Hulk? Sentry? Dr. Strange? Iceman? Storm?

The only reason that the government came out as well as it did in the whole Civil War thing is because the mutants and other powerhouses largely stayed out of it.

[Essex]

That is why I think registration is a good idea. So that abuses like that could be addressed and hopefully avoided. These people should be in jail, not roaming the streets with impunity.

I still don't get your point. The superhero rapist was an agent of the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered another superhero it was while on a mission for the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered two reporters whose investigation into Watergate threatened the Nixon administration it was as an agent of the U.S. government. He WAS registered. Being registered didn't stop him from doing these things. Being registered didn't stop him from killing a woman pregnant with his child during the Vietnam war. The only thing that being registered accomplished was to officially sanction his activities.

[....]

I still don't get your point. The superhero rapist was an agent of the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered another superhero it was while on a mission for the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered two reporters whose investigation into Watergate threatened the Nixon administration it was as an agent of the U.S. government. He WAS registered. Being registered didn't stop him from doing these things. Being registered didn't stop him from killing a woman pregnant with his child during the Vietnam war. The only thing that being registered accomplished was to officially sanction his activities.


Rorscharch (?) was actually the only heroic hero of those three, and he was unregistered.

(I mean yeah, he killed people, but they were rapists and murderers. I don't really have a problem with that.)

[Essex]

What happens when the government passes the act and Xavier decides not to comply? He can make you forget ever thinkign about passing it.

Xavier isn't powerful enough to alter every mind in America. Even if he were there are people with mind shields. Even if there weren't there are still written records. Even if there weren't any records I beleive that the government decided that all Mutant refugees at the Xavier estate were automatically registered. The didn't get a choice.


Or Magneto? He created a world wide EMP.

Last I heard he was powerless. Even if he weren't he was also outside of the U.S. Even if he were in the U.S. he'd probably be automatically registered because he is a mutant.


Phoenix? Silver Surfer? The Hulk? Sentry? Dr. Strange? Iceman? Storm?

Phoenix is a mutant, see above. Silver Surfer isn't on Earth. Hulk wasn't on Earth until recently and is currently at war with America. Sentry did side with the pro-registration group. Dr. Strange did indeed sit things out but is currently aiding anti-registration heroes. Icemen and Storm were probably automatically registered for being mutants at the Xavier estate.

[Essex]

Rorscharch (?) was actually the only heroic hero of those three, and he was unregistered.

(I mean yeah, he killed people, but they were rapists and murderers. I don't really have a problem with that.)

You probably should. Rorschach was legitimately insane and rather bigoted.

[jazz1m]

Xavier isn't powerful enough to alter every mind in America. Even if he were there are people with mind shields. Even if there weren't there are still written records. Even if there weren't any records I beleive that the government decided that all Mutant refugees at the Xavier estate were automatically registered. The didn't get a choice.

Indeed. If this was a 1984 world the government could just use the idea of double-think

The SHRA has always been in effect (and you know, the public would believe them)

[Emperor Tippy]

Xavier isn't powerful enough to alter every mind in America. Even if he were there are people with mind shields. Even if there weren't there are still written records. Even if there weren't any records I beleive that the government decided that all Mutant refugees at the Xavier estate were automatically registered. The didn't get a choice.
What do you think would happen if Xavier called the mutants to war? He may not be able to alter every mind in America but eh can alter those of every leader. It is not a war humanity would win, or even stand much of a chance in. Again, he decided to not really support either side.


Last I heard he was powerless. Even if he weren't he was also outside of the U.S. Even if he were in the U.S. he'd probably be automatically registered because he is a mutant.
Assuming House of M never happened. He was just an example of someone with the power to tell the government to F off and be able to back it up.


Phoenix is a mutant, see above. Silver Surfer isn't on Earth. Hulk wasn't on Earth until recently and is currently at war with America. Sentry did side with the pro-registration group. Dr. Strange did indeed sit things out but is currently aiding anti-registration heroes. Icemen and Storm were probably automatically registered for being mutants at the Xavier estate.

The point is not that the mutants were registered. The point is that they chose not to fight and stay neutral in the conflict. But what would have happened if they didn't? Or they don't decided to stay neutral? And I thought sentry sided with them but didn't actually fight for them.

The point is the government doesn't have the power to back up its laws on superhumans. At least not if any of the real power houses decided to oppose it.

[Indon]

What do you think would happen if Xavier called the mutants to war? He may not be able to alter every mind in America but eh can alter those of every leader. It is not a war humanity would win, or even stand much of a chance in. Again, he decided to not really support either side.

That goes against pretty much everything the character of Xavier is about, so it's really a nonissue there.




The point is the government doesn't have the power to back up its laws on superhumans. At least not if any of the real power houses decided to oppose it.

Another way of looking at it, it was a good time to launch government laws on superhumans, because the forces which would be able to oppose it were either known to be likely not to do so, or would be unable to do so.

[Tallis]

I still don't get your point. The superhero rapist was an agent of the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered another superhero it was while on a mission for the U.S. government. When he (supposedly) murdered two reporters whose investigation into Watergate threatened the Nixon administration it was as an agent of the U.S. government. He WAS registered. Being registered didn't stop him from doing these things. Being registered didn't stop him from killing a woman pregnant with his child during the Vietnam war. The only thing that being registered accomplished was to officially sanction his activities.

I notice you didn't quote the second half of the paragraph.
Yes, in this instance the government failed in their responsibility. I agree with you on that point, but this illustrates that superheroes are capable of doing bad things. Registration gives a better chance of justice being done in those cases. If a crime is commited and you can identify the criminal you have a chance of seeing justice. If you can't identify who did it then there is no chance.

Let me ask you all a question:
The government regulates nuclear bombs to the best of their ability. They do their best to stop people from having them. I would hope that we can all agree that this is necessary for the protection of the public. Even if they don't plan to use it there could be an accident.
Many superhumans are capable of destruction on the level of a nuclear bomb, moreover they can do it over and over again rather than being used up in one shot. Maybe they had a choice in gaining that ability and maybe they didn't. The fact is they have it. Is the potential danger any less to those arround them? Is the government's responsibilty to protect the public any less because the bomb can think for itself?
Maybe this person will choose to never use their powers. Maybe they will only use them in a good and responsible way. The problem is that we won't know until it's too late to set countermeasures. If they decide to blow up Detroit we might not even know who did it.

I believe very strongly in individual freedoms. I am willing to give up a good deal of security to be more free, but some dangers are too great. The potential damage and loss of life is too much. The higher grade superhumans are a clear and present danger. They should not be put in jail if they don't do anything wrong. They should not be drafted. They should be trained if they choice to fight. They should be held accountable for their actions and they should be kept track of at least minimally so that if they do go bad we have a way to stop them.

[JonathanC]

Registration won't stop people with superpowers from doing bad things. And calling the Comedian's behavior in Watchmen a 'government oversight' is ridiculous: they weren't overlooking anything, they didn't fail to do anything. He was doing exactly what the government wanted him to do.

And that's why registration is dangerous. It's dangerous enough to have individuals with such incredible powers; to hand all of those powers over to the government ensures that when (not if) the government becomes corrupted by those powers, they will be completely impossible to correct. What do they need your votes for when they can just have Iron Man turn your house into slag? What happens when the President decides he doesn't want to leave office? Who's going to make him, if every superhero is at his beck and call?

[....]

You probably should. Rorschach was legitimately insane and rather bigoted.

He was, but he didn't kill pregnant women.

I'm not saying I agree with everyone Rorschach did or thought, but he had a code and stuck to it without deviation, and never (as far as I could see) hurt anyone who was innocent, even the people he was bigoted against.

[Solo]

[QUOTE=Hushdawg;2870037]I *LOVE* that bit!

"Hell, you know he did somethin' to get shot. They done put $750,000 worth of bullets in him!"

or something like that.

:D

Funny, but I would like to point out that its cheaper to make your own ammo than buy it, so, unless the government outlaws the private ownership of lead, gunpowder, and casings, the expensive bullet idea is dead.

[....]

[QUOTE=Hushdawg;2870037]Funny, but I would like to point out that its cheaper to make your own ammo than buy it, so, unless the government outlaws the private ownership of lead, gunpowder, and casings, the expensive bullet idea is dead.

I doubt the sort of people that bit is referencing have the wherewithal to create their own bullets.

[Solo]

Its rather easy. You buy a bullet press, some lead, gunpowder, brass casings,and follow the loading instructions... its really not that hard.

Its easier than making crystal meth, which the lowlifes do do.

[Hushdawg]

Its rather easy. You buy a bullet press, some lead, gunpowder, brass casings,and follow the loading instructions... its really not that hard.

Its easier than making crystal meth, which the lowlifes do do.

Yes, and some of the primary ingredients for crystal meth are heavily controlled now. If you want to go buy real Sudafed, for example, you are limited in the number of pills that can be purchased.

So why not limit the number of casings that one could buy?

As I've said before, there is a legitimate concern to one being able to defend his or her family and I do uphold that. At the same time, however, I have a serious problem with the sheer volume of bullets flying through the air on an average day in the USA.

[jazz1m]

Well then make gunpowder really expensive. Besides, it's a joke...no need to take it very seriously :smallbiggrin:

[Finn Solomon]

And that's why registration is dangerous. It's dangerous enough to have individuals with such incredible powers; to hand all of those powers over to the government ensures that when (not if) the government becomes corrupted by those powers, they will be completely impossible to correct. What do they need your votes for when they can just have Iron Man turn your house into slag? What happens when the President decides he doesn't want to leave office? Who's going to make him, if every superhero is at his beck and call?

I'm having trouble understanding why superheroes would choose to be at the President's beck and call. Registration is a long way from becoming an active agent in the service of the government, and even if they were pressed into service, the majority of these powered individuals are superheroes. They know right from wrong. What can the President do to hold on to office, if every superhero refused to obey him? After all, he's just an insignificant Texan male who can't even leap tall buildings in a single bound.

[Solo]

Yes, and some of the primary ingredients for crystal meth are heavily controlled now. If you want to go buy real Sudafed, for example, you are limited in the number of pills that can be purchased.




You can make crystal meth out of a lot of different things. Its easier with pseudophederine, but it is by no means the only way.

Honestly, all it takes is a chemistry degree and loose morals.


So why not limit the number of casings that one could buy?

How would that help?

[Essex]

What do you think would happen if Xavier called the mutants to war? He may not be able to alter every mind in America but eh can alter those of every leader. It is not a war humanity would win, or even stand much of a chance in. Again, he decided to not really support either side.

What would happen? Not much. There are only about 200 mutants left. Spider-Man's rogues gallery (many of whom are currently working for the U.S. government's Thunderbolts program) is large enough to meet them in equal numbers. Also remember the 50 States Initiative program that is putting a government sponsored super-team in every single state. If you assume that each team has at least five members then there are over 250 people in the program. There is also the Cape Killer squadron within SHIELD that has been trained specifically to take down rogue superheroes. The Xavier estate is surrounded by a permanent army garrison backed up by several giant killer robots that have been specifically designed to counter the X-Men. If they get past all of those forces then they still have to deal with Stark's personal team of Avengers and the collected U.S. (and probably U.N.) armed forces.

[Essex]

What can the President do to hold on to office, if every superhero refused to obey him? After all, he's just an insignificant Texan male who can't even leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

It is all about the principle of divide and conquer. If a hero who has complied with the registration act is called alone into a briefing room on an army base and given a morally ambiguous order he is more likely to go along with things then if some government agent were trying to give the same spiel while standing on some rooftop with the hero surrounded by the other members of his superhero team.

As an added bonus, if the hero refuses then he is in the perfect location to be captured and incarcerated for disobeying an order.

Finally, if the hero does agree then he will be more likely to go along with morally ambiguous orders in the future. After enough such missions the hero will be desensitised to the extent that he'll be unlikely to question any orders.

[Tallis]

Registration won't stop people with superpowers from doing bad things. And calling the Comedian's behavior in Watchmen a 'government oversight' is ridiculous: they weren't overlooking anything, they didn't fail to do anything. He was doing exactly what the government wanted him to do.

And that's why registration is dangerous. It's dangerous enough to have individuals with such incredible powers; to hand all of those powers over to the government ensures that when (not if) the government becomes corrupted by those powers, they will be completely impossible to correct. What do they need your votes for when they can just have Iron Man turn your house into slag? What happens when the President decides he doesn't want to leave office? Who's going to make him, if every superhero is at his beck and call?

I didn't call the Comedians behavior a 'government oversite'. Read my post again. I said there needs to be oversite. As in a group of elected officials whose job it is to keep track of these activities.
Also, if you read my posts all the way through you'd see that I've said more than once that I do not support a superhuman draft. So anyone working for the president would be doing it by choice (and still be kept track of by the above mentioned group).
The government controls the military in the real world. I haven't heard of a president yet declaring martial law to stay in power (though it wouldn't surprise me too much if W did it). No president has threatened to nuke my house if I didn't vote to reelect him, even though I wouldn't be able to stop them if they wanted to.
Without any superhumans, the power wielded by the government outstrips the public by even more than it would with them. There would certainly be supers that sided against the government, but how many of you have an Abrams tank or a Raptor? How about a Spirit bomber? Nuclear Sub? The only thing that makes it more likely in the comic universe is that it could be an entertaining story so the writers are more likely to write it that way.

[horseboy]

I'm going to go with that tired old the Marvel adage: "With great power comes a greater responsibility." If you've got the power to blow up a building, it's your responsibility to make sure that that power is used responsibly. Yes, that means people in your neighborhood should know they need extra insurance. That means if the government needs you to blow up a couple of buildings to stop a wall of water about to destroy a city you do it. If ANYONE asks you to blow up a building because the people inside peaceably disagree. You say No.

On the whole, I'm really surprised they haven't tried this sooner. I think my exact words were along the lines of "About time!" They've been hammering mutants about this for so long, while Stark runs around in better than military grade weapons systems and somehow that was okay.

As far as a registration goes:
As someone with an SSN, a BIA #, registered firearms and who's registered with Selective Service. I really don't see how it's that different than my life now.

The thing that Marvel is forgetting in all of this is how this is NOT early and mid 20th century Europe. This is the era of 24/7 news channels and youtube. It would be so easy to set yourself up as a "conscientious objector " in the modern era.

[DiscipleofBob]

I was anti-registration throughout the entirety of Civil War.

What exactly were Spider-Man and all those other superheroes doing when they decided to don a mask, hide their secret identities, and start fighting crime? They were vigilantes, and as such their actions are illegal in this country (or at least would be considered illegal by modern law). The entire point behind most of superheroes' motivations is that they are dissatisfied with how government and local police forces are doing their jobs, so they fight crime and injustice the way they see as right.

[Logic]

As far as a registration goes:
As someone with an SSN, a BIA #, registered firearms and who's registered with Selective Service. I really don't see how it's that different than my life now.

The problem I have with it, is some people have no ability to control their gaining of powers. While people like Stark definately need to be registered or stand down, I don't like that there are only 3 options for mutants or people like Hulk and Spiderman.
Leave the country.
Register, and be required to hunt down others (it was spelled out in the SHRA)
Go to prison, without a trial.
Now, it is well withing the law to hold someone prior to a trial, but that is not what happened. They locked them up and threw away the key.

[SteveMB]

The thing that Marvel is forgetting in all of this is how this is NOT early and mid 20th century Europe. This is the era of 24/7 news channels and youtube. It would be so easy to set yourself up as a "conscientious objector " in the modern era.

And back then, some people said, "This is NOT the seventeenth century. This is the era of mass print journalism and radio. It would be so easy to expose government absolutism and abuse in the modern era."

The more things change....

[Hushdawg]

I still stand by my original statement.

The SHRA is a totalitarian measure.

It is not registration, it is manipulation. The government is using this informatin to blackmail and coerce heroes into doing things that they would not otherwise do.

Would it have been less palatable if the government sent Sentries into X-mansion and put big M patches on all the Mutants?

Where is the difference between that and this?

I'm really shocked that Bishop hasn't been fighting the SHRA all along...

[Hushdawg]

As far as a registration goes:
As someone with an SSN, a BIA #, registered firearms and who's registered with Selective Service. I really don't see how it's that different than my life now.


All the heroes have this too. They are all US Citizens and have the same registration you have as an individual.

Do you register your work with the US government?

Would you be comfortable having a government agency telling you how, when and where to do your job?

What if you were on a drug enforcement task force and all the sudden you are taken away from there by the government and told to go assasinate a foreign leader or hunt down other cops who quit the force.

Bear in mind that the registration does not say that you have to be registered in order to BE a hero, you have to register just by virtue of having powers.

How is that any different from registering specially because of ethnicity or religion?

It's facist and wrong.

[insert appropriate political allegory here]

[Indon]

Do you register your work with the US government?

Cops do.



Would you be comfortable having a government agency telling you how, when and where to do your job?


Again, cops must do this.



What if you were on a drug enforcement task force and all the sudden you are taken away from there by the government and told to go assasinate a foreign leader or hunt down other cops who quit the force.


Cops, by law, must turn down (and probably report) unlawful orders which they are given. The first is unlawful. The second is equivalent to hunting down an AWOL draft-dodger.



Bear in mind that the registration does not say that you have to be registered in order to BE a hero, you have to register just by virtue of having powers.


As far as I can tell, you're essentially arguing not against a superhero registration, but a superhero draft. Drafting isn't fascist; the US government has made quite a few people in the past go kill against their will.

Not to say I support a draft, but in any situation in which normal people are being drafted I don't think superheroes should be exempt.



How is that any different from registering specially because of ethnicity or religion?


My ethnicity and religion can not personally make me an unstoppable killing machine. Being a superhero _can_.

[bingo_bob]

People have been saying that the SHRA is good- in theory. IMO, so was communism. And we all saw how that turned out.

As currently written, the SHRA is a baaaad idea. Registration is a good idea, but the SHRA is going about it all wrong.

[Tokiko Mima]

If the registration were voluntary, then there would have been no problems. However, anytime you register people against their will and then start issuing orders for them you end up robbing them of their liberties, which ultimately robs everyone of their liberty.

There is a big difference between super-beings and cops. Being a police officer is a profession. If your department issues orders you disagree with, you always have the option to quit and turn in your badge and gun. If you're a super-being, you'll always be a super-being. If you refuse to do what the government tells you under SHRA, you get hunted down as a rogue and end up imprisoned or worse. You can also choose not to be a police officer, but as a super-being you can't choose not to register under SHRA.

It's also incorrect to view this as a draft, because a superbeing isn't allowed the option of being conscientious objector, nor is it a truely random draw when you choose everyone with superpowers and no one else. There's also a school of thought that believes that drafts themselves are wrong. You shouldn't force someone to kill that doesn't want to. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=0f8uJNmjFK8)

[Hushdawg]

Cops, by law, must turn down (and probably report) unlawful orders which they are given. The first is unlawful. The second is equivalent to hunting down an AWOL draft-dodger.


But superheroes are not allowed to do this.
We saw just through the events of Civil War that Superheroes who felt uncomfortable with thier orders were being told "Suck it"



As far as I can tell, you're essentially arguing not against a superhero registration, but a superhero draft. Drafting isn't fascist; the US government has made quite a few people in the past go kill against their will.

Not to say I support a draft, but in any situation in which normal people are being drafted I don't think superheroes should be exempt.

My ethnicity and religion can not personally make me an unstoppable killing machine. Being a superhero _can_.

The SHRA is not the same as superhero registration.
If you read back in this thread you'll see that I support a superhero registration which allows the superheroes to remain anonymous.
This is because superheroes attract supervillains. Would it be in the interests of safety to have the identities of superheroes available to anyone in the Pentagon? Anything stored in a computer can be stolen.
We've seen in Spider-Man's life what happens when villains learn his identity. They kill innocent people just to provoke the hero.
If Spider-Man pissed off Thanos and Thanos knew who he was and where he lived then he'd be likely to destroy the entire city just to provoke him.

Superheroes can still be registered and masked. They should be required to check in with an agency to report activity and provide a method of contact that does not compromise their identity.

Drafting is not facist.
But Drafting without a clear threat to national security *IS* facist.
Forcing superpowered individuals to serve as federal agents just because they are powered IS facist.

Anyone can kill. Someone who works out at thy gym can kill people easier than someone who sits on the couch and eats chee-toes all day. Should he be registered?

Everyone who takes martial arts has skills that others don't have; those skills can be used for defense or attack.
Should you have to register after reaching a certain skill level in martial arts?

Now, I will concede that if someone who is a boxer or a black belt in martial arts does kill somoene with those skills that they can be charged with Assault With a Deadly Weapon in most states. But they STILL are not required to REGISTER.

The SHRA allows that if a 13 year old discovers that he has the ability to fly that he must automatically register and work for the federal government.
Do you REALLY think that is logical and legitimate?

True that your religion and ethnicity do not automatically make you a killer; but that is the perception to a whole lot of people.
Superpowers don't always mean that someone is capable of killing. Not everyone in the Marvel universe that has powers uses them for anything more than daily life. That's kinda why most of the kids end up in Xavier's school. A lot of them will never become heroes or villains. Many don't even want the powers and a lot of them just want to lead a normal life.
SHRA takes that away from them.

It steals the choice, it steals the humanity and forces them to a task they may openly reject.
THAT is facism.

[Dalenthas]

I'd like to point out that in some states in the US, you do have to register when you reach a certain skill level with martial arts.

[Hushdawg]

I'd like to point out that in some states in the US, you do have to register when you reach a certain skill level with martial arts.

I know you have to register to teach.. but just to have the skill level?

Please provide linkage.. I've never heard of this before.

[Dalenthas]

Alright, I did some research and I am unable to find a website to back up my claims. This means my above post should effectively have [citation needed] tagged on at the end of it.
However, upon doing my research I am astounded at the number of things that do require a liscense that nobody complains about.

Think about it this way Hushdawg: Someone gives a 13 year old a gun. The gun is magically bound to the 13 year old so that he can't get rid of it. If he doesn't want to use it, he doesn't have to, but the temptation will be there if he gets in enough trouble. Now, under current rules, the 13 year old would be punished for owning the gun under any circumstances, but he'd get a lighter sentence if he turned himself in. The SHRA effectively allows him to get away with having the magically bound gun by agreeing to a training period to know when and how to use his "power" effectively with the minimum chance of hurting innocents. How is this bad?

[bingo_bob]

It's not the training that's objectionable, it's the fact that he's automatically pressed into service with the government. And furthermore, the government suddenly has a huge level of control over his life.


As has been said before, it isn't really a draft, because if you meet the requirement, in this case being a superbeing, you are immediately, forcibly pressed into service. Whether they use you or not, well, that depends. But you are immediately forced to register.

Also, by my understanding, there's no differentation between power levels. Heck, your power could be something incredibly useless, like being able to levitate birds, and you still ahve to register (horrible example, but hey). Also, there's no clear definition of what a superpower IS.

[Indon]

Anyone can kill. Someone who works out at thy gym can kill people easier than someone who sits on the couch and eats chee-toes all day. Should he be registered?

Everyone who takes martial arts has skills that others don't have; those skills can be used for defense or attack.
Should you have to register after reaching a certain skill level in martial arts?

Now, I will concede that if someone who is a boxer or a black belt in martial arts does kill somoene with those skills that they can be charged with Assault With a Deadly Weapon in most states. But they STILL are not required to REGISTER.


Anyone can rig up a stationary bike and use it to generate a small amount of electricity. They shouldn't have to register anything.

But the owner of a hydroelectric plant should probably have to register it.

It's a matter of scale. Superpowers have the potential to be _ridiculously_ greater than normal individuals, not on a couch-potato/martial arts scale, but on a puddle/Pacific Ocean scale, which can easily involve matters of national security.

Though admittedly, I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that the way the SHRA was implemented was very bad, and that it was done so in order to generate a story.

[kpenguin]

I'd like to point out that not every superpower is a threat to the public or even useful. If a guy were to just happen to fall into a vat of radioactive waste and come out with the power to change his skin color to purple at will, I fail to see how he would be a danger to the public. However, under the SHRA, he would be registered and his identity divulged. If the SHRA was limited to powers that could be potentially harmful to public at large, then this wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't.

[psycojester]

I'd like to point out that not every superpower is a threat to the public or even useful. If a guy were to just happen to fall into a vat of radioactive waste and come out with the power to change his skin color to purple at will

Yeah but he'd probably just end up like the purple man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Purple_Man

[Hushdawg]

However, upon doing my research I am astounded at the number of things that do require a liscense that nobody complains about.


Such as?



Think about it this way Hushdawg: Someone gives a 13 year old a gun. The gun is magically bound to the 13 year old so that he can't get rid of it. If he doesn't want to use it, he doesn't have to, but the temptation will be there if he gets in enough trouble. Now, under current rules, the 13 year old would be punished for owning the gun under any circumstances, but he'd get a lighter sentence if he turned himself in. The SHRA effectively allows him to get away with having the magically bound gun by agreeing to a training period to know when and how to use his "power" effectively with the minimum chance of hurting innocents. How is this bad?

because there is no option for the 13-year-old to have the gun removed.
The 13-year old not only gets training, but is forced to use the weapon as a government entity sees fit.

Professor X has taken in mutants for a long time, taught them to control their powers and how to adapt to live in the world. Not all of them became heroes.
I much prefer this method as opposed to anything else.

[Hushdawg]

Anyone can rig up a stationary bike and use it to generate a small amount of electricity. They shouldn't have to register anything.

But the owner of a hydroelectric plant should probably have to register it.

It's a matter of scale. Superpowers have the potential to be _ridiculously_ greater than normal individuals, not on a couch-potato/martial arts scale, but on a puddle/Pacific Ocean scale, which can easily involve matters of national security.

Though admittedly, I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that the way the SHRA was implemented was very bad, and that it was done so in order to generate a story.

Here' we come down again to the basic premise.. you have to CHOOSE to build a hydroelectric plant... a lot of superpowered people don't CHOOSE to have the powers.

Besides... if I could build a hydroelectric plant to power my own house I shouldn't have to register a damn thing.

Superpowers are not always so extreme. I'm astounded that so many people are going with the bullet vs atomic bomb comparative.

What if a guy suddenly discovers that he can fly?
How is that going to hurt someone?

What about someone who discovers that he can read minds?
What if he doesn't want this power? He is ethically opposed to it and chooses NOT to use the power?

With the SHRA they would use psychics to hunt out other psychics and force them to register and use their powers.

That is most definitely a violation of freedom.

[ravenkith]

Note:

THE SHRA WAS A SKRULL PLOT YOU PLONKERS!

It is evil.

That's all there is to it.

Drafting people to fight and die for you is wrong.

People who are going to dedicate themselves to something, to lay their lives down for it in some cases, ought not to be forced to do it at the threat of being imprisoned indefinitely.

Yes, heroes should be organized. Yes, heroes should be trained. But people who happen to have powers should not be forced to step into a peace-keeping role. They should be given the same chance as anyone else to have as normal a life as possible.

The people doing the training ought to be experienced superheroes in the same field; volunteers.

Just because someone is different, and in a minority, does not, under any circumstances, make it ok for a government to push them around and give them unfair treatment, to violate their civil rights by holding them indefinitely without trial, or any other kind of mistreatment.

It was wrong when the US government did it to the african-americans, poor & uneducated in Viet Nam, and it's wrong in MU 616.

Funnily enough, despite the draft in WWII, most of the people who served were actually volunteers, if I remember the statistics correctly...that's what makes the people who fought in that war all the more admirable; they were putting their lives at risk because their hearts told them it was the right thing to do.

None more so than the tuskegee airman, who fought prejudice and hatred for the right to die for their country.

In case anybody cares?

I'm caucasian.

I just hope that the afterlife has been kind to all the men who have died to give us liberty in the modern era, from those who boarded the ship in boston harbor, to those who fought at the Alamo, to those who stormed the beaches at Normandy....not because they were forced to, but because they believed it was right.

To those of you who would sacrifice liberty for security, I ask you: what would you tell those men?

Fear the righteous, fighting for what they believe in. No equally-trained man fighting merely for pay can beat their bravery, dedication, and heart.

[Xuincherguixe]

To those of you who would sacrifice liberty for security, I ask you: what would you tell those men?

You would tell them the sacrifice was for liberty, and that it ensured that we would continue to be free. And that the threat will make us lose it. the threat isn't like us, it doesn't care about us, it wants to destroy everything we believe in.


Scary how many people that works on.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<stuff>

AMEN! Well said, friend.

[T.Titan]

Drafting isn't fascist; the US government has made quite a few people in the past go kill against their will.

So if the US did it it's OK coz they never did anything that wasn't....




My ethnicity and religion can not personally make me an unstoppable killing machine. Being a superhero _can_.

And of course that possibility means one should be assumed guilty before doing anything wrong.

Integrating superheroes in the existing law enforcement agencies using the same methods as for normal people and with the same joining policies = OK. Making them register their powers or else = NOT OK.

And a big part of vigilantism is being judge and jury yourself, something most marvel supers don't do, they just catch bad guys and give them to the police, something that if a normal person was arrested for everyone would disagree with.

As for them not being held accountable for their actions, does wearing a sky mask while committing a crime make that criminal immune to the law? If a super does something wrong then by all means have the police (including those with superpowers that willingly join the force) track him down like any other criminal, that's what they're for.

[Dalenthas]

The SHRA was depicted wildly differently in different titles to fit the need of the story at hand. There was no consistancy on how it was enforced or how it was intended to be enforced. Therefore, any argument made on either side will be able to be contradicted by an example from the comics.

Can we at lest agree its a good idea in concept if not execution?

This is my last post on this topic because I realize how futile it is to argue any further.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The concept of having people with powers register for training is a good one. The idea of it being with the GOVERNMENT that is allowed to draft them, and imprison them for not complying, is not. If the draft and imprisonment factors were taken out, and masked heroes were only required to supply codename and contact information, it wouldn't be so bad. If the whole thing was run under SHIELD and Nick Fury, it would be better. If it was run under some other organization, made up of heroes led by the Illuminati, privately funded and with representatives to the UN, it would be perfect.

[ravenkith]

The SHRA was depicted wildly differently in different titles to fit the need of the story at hand. There was no consistancy on how it was enforced or how it was intended to be enforced. Therefore, any argument made on either side will be able to be contradicted by an example from the comics.

Can we at lest agree its a good idea in concept if not execution?

This is my last post on this topic because I realize how futile it is to argue any further.

The idea of organizing a national response team of heroes (or sorts) is a very good one.

But that has been around for years: Look at Avengers (NY)/Avengers West Coast (LA)/Forceworks (Chicago).

In fact, the only reason those teams didn't stick around is because the books just didn't sell: the teams that were put in place just didn't have the chemistry of the original, and they were always consider knock-offs (one of the major reasons that Forceworks went with a completely different title).

While the SHRA storyline was poorly executed, the idea of government legislated superheroes is just, flat out, a very bad one.

Subsidized? Sure! I could back that; an initiative to fund emerging supergroups in each state, with a bonus paid based on the ratio of experienced to novice superheroes included on your team, with the most paid for a 50/50 split.

But legislated? First of all that requires some sort of database of all of the known superpowered beings. This is what I like to call an "absolutely, mindbogglingly, amazingly, obviously incredibly stupid idea".

There is no way, on a planet brimming with supersmart supervillains, that you could ever make a database like that, and keep it secure.

Congratulations, your database makes it possible to wipe out the superhero population overnight. Oops doesn't begin to cover it at that point.

(They can't make a jail to hold some of these guys in, what makes you think they can make something that can keep them out?)

All that aside, anyone who doesn't register is automatically a criminal. Who you have to go after.

Yeah, that's a fricking great idea. Let's have all the heroes who are willing to work with you go out and beat the crap out of those that aren't, in order to lock them up.

Congratulations: in one move, you've managed to tie up those heroes you get to sign up, lock away those who wouldn't, taking them off the streets, and in the process, give the villains a field day.

Oh yeah, and you're devoting resources to even find these people in the first place.

...and that's just the beginning....

Ideally , superhero squads around the nation would be put in place, kind of like volunteer firefighting houses: the government builds, maintains, & pays for the facilities, arranges to make training available from experienced professionals, but otherwise gets the hell out of the way.

In my opinion, any time you talk about manufacturing 'superheroes' that will be burnt out in a year (never allowing them to accrue any real experience), you're talking about something that is doomed to fail. BUILT to fail. Spectacularly.

By the way, you're also talking about 'The Order', which is the comic book that just came out that is supposedly about the flagship team of the 50 states initiative.

So, uh yeah... SHRA? Not such a big fan. <shrug>.

[psycojester]

There is no way, on a planet brimming with supersmart supervillains, that you could ever make a database like that, and keep it secure.


Sure there is you've just gotta think laterally. The database should be written out by hand, By Nick Fury and subsequently kept in his lounge room disguised as shelves full of badly written world war 2 pulp fiction.

Dr Doom and co are never going to lower themselves to going round to Nick's place to leaf through his library, they'd never even think to look there, and Fury already knows where everything important or secret in the marvel universe is anyway, its not like he can't keep a secret.

[horseboy]

All the heroes have this too. They are all US Citizens and have the same registration you have as an individual.

Do you register your work with the US government?

Me personally? No. Is my work registered with the US government? Yes. That's what the Office manager/EEO Officer/OSHA Officer/Payroll person does.


Would you be comfortable having a government agency telling you how, when and where to do your job?
EPA, OSHA, EEO, Governmental Contracting.


What if you were on a drug enforcement task force and all the sudden you are taken away from there by the government and told to go assasinate a foreign leader or hunt down other cops who quit the force.
Honestly, that would depend on weither or not I felt it was valid. Dr. Doom (since I can't use real world examples), sure, sign me up. I'd be there like Frank all *pew,pew*.


Bear in mind that the registration does not say that you have to be registered in order to BE a hero, you have to register just by virtue of having powers.

Given that my superpowers could be a threat to those around them, then yeah, the pubic NEEDS to know. My right to privacy ends at my neighbor's yard.


How is that any different from registering specially because of ethnicity or religion?
Uh, BIA=Bureau of Indian Affairs. I AM registered specially because of ethnicity.


It's facist and wrong.

When did I say it wasn't? I said it wasn't really that different from what I already put up with.

[Hushdawg]

Uh, BIA=Bureau of Indian Affairs. I AM registered specially because of ethnicity.


Bad example.

I work with an organization that (among other work that we do) has been trying to repair the massive amounts of damage done to the socio-economic structure of the Navajos (and eventually other tribes) by the BIA and other federal bodies.

Marginalizing any group by the color of their skin, the way they worship or the genes in their veins has always led to tragedy upon tragedy in this world.

From the wholesale slaughter of the native Tribes of the Americas to the concentration camps in Palestine we've had nothing but centuries of chaos all due to such marginalization.

The SHRA is no different, it forces people to be penalized because of accident or birthright.

Your right to privacy does not end at your neighbour's yard. Such a concept is rediculous. You have the right to choose your life, your work, your school, etc. Yet under the SHRA you are damned to a life of servitude under a federal office that thinks it knows better for you.

That's precisely WHY Captain America fought against SHRA.

I'm with cap.

Call me Bucky II.

[Hushdawg]

I just want to add here:

"If you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns."

The very concept of an anonymous vigilante in the neighborhood is enough to keep criminals spooked. Look at how effective The Batman has been at just being PRESENT to frighten criminals out of doing harm.

How many powered individuals will do as Firestorm did and just quit?

How many more criminals will loose their fear and commit crimes because of an overall reduction in those fighting crime?

Beyond being xenophobic and bigoted, the SHRA eliminates the right of these individuals to protect effectively.

Take away the mask and you take away the power... that's exactly what SHRA does.

[horseboy]

Bad example.

I work with an organization that (among other work that we do) has been trying to repair the massive amounts of damage done to the socio-economic structure of the Navajos (and eventually other tribes) by the BIA and other federal bodies.
And I thank you for your work.



The SHRA is no different, it forces people to be penalized because of accident or birthright.
(Wonders if he realizes that I'm agreeing with him on this point)


Your right to privacy does not end at your neighbor's yard. Such a concept is ridiculous. You have the right to choose your life, your work, your school, etc.
Until that choice affects someone else.


Yet under the SHRA you are damned to a life of servitude under a federal office that thinks it knows better for you.
And now they're just like everyone else.


That's precisely WHY Captain America fought against SHRA.

I'm with cap.

Call me Bucky II.

And that's why he died.

[Falkus]

There is no way, on a planet brimming with supersmart supervillains, that you could ever make a database like that, and keep it secure.

My response will be as it always is: Law enforcement is the purview of the government. Now, if a superpowered individual doesn't want to work for the government, then he shouldn't be forced to. But, if he does not work for the government, he does not have the right or the authority to fight crime.


Beyond being xenophobic and bigoted, the SHRA eliminates the right of these individuals to protect effectively.

They don't have that right, and they never did. Fighting crime has never been the right of a citizen. That's why vigilantism is illegal.

[TheNifty]

They don't have that right, and they never did. Fighting crime has never been the right of a citizen. That's why vigilantism is illegal.

So... citizen's arrests are illegal? News to me. Vigilantism is the unsanctioned punishment of a crime. As long as you observe due process, you can intervene in a crime, capture a criminal* and hand him over to the cops without technically committing an act of vigilantism.

Spider-man can thwart as many bank robberies as he wants, as long as he doesn't break any laws.

*this is the tricky part. Subduing anyone, even a wanted criminal, can leave you open to a lot of criminal charges up to and including kidnapping.

[ravenkith]

Citizens arrests are perfectly legal: excessive force, failure to identify yourself as the arresting party, and failure to testify in court?

Not so much.

[TheNifty]

My real problem with the SHRA is the amount of real-world politics it drags into the marvelverse. I read comic books for escapism, not for thinly disguised commentary on the war on terror. I wouldn't mind all superheroes just saying "OK, we're vigilantes. We also save the world three times a week. You really want to arrest us for thwarting the occasional bank robbery?"

That doesn't mean that when a cape screws up and gets a bunch of people killed they should be immune from prosecution, but why not give people who regularly avert alien/demon/terrorist/supervillan plots to destroy/conquer/enslave the world the benefit of the doubt?

[Logic]

My response will be as it always is: Law enforcement is the purview of the government. Now, if a superpowered individual doesn't want to work for the government, then he shouldn't be forced to. But, if he does not work for the government, he does not have the right or the authority to fight crime.



They don't have that right, and they never did. Fighting crime has never been the right of a citizen. That's why vigilantism is illegal.

If I were a super-powered individual in the Marvel-verse, I would register if I were a "masked vigilante." Why? Because to me, it is the right thing to do, and I don't think it is unreasonable to ask me to provide my name for this database, I don't have alot to lose, and am willing to put myself at that much more risk, because of the greater potential rewards. I would also be kinda like Deadpool, and pick and choose my targets. I certainly would not want to go against someone like Cap.

But, if were not fighting crime, I would leave the United States faster than you could say "SHRA becomes law!" I'd probably go to Wakanda. As long as T'Challa is in charge, none of that stupid government control disguised as security would ever happen.

[ravenkith]

Problem: last I checked, Wakanda wasn't big on immigration.

Other than that, getting the hell out of the states would have been the non-violent form of protest that could have demonstrated what a bad idea this all was.

Imagine: every single hero that was refusing to register gathering peacefully in new york before boarding craft and leaving the states 'until the law was repealed'.

Maybe heading for Europe.

Imagine the european press corp welcoming the heroes, like, well heroes....

HAPPY to have people on hand who can stop the depredations of powered individuals. I mean, I bet they've all been sweating bullets since Latveria got taken over, wondering who was next...and really, they only had excalibur to protect them before, near as I can tell.

That event would get major press, and show just how much the citizens of the states were losing to each and everyone of them. One month and a public referendum later, and that law is toast.

But that wouldn't have allowed them to use a Thor clone to fry black goliath, now would it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've been saying it a lot, and it's true: the recruits for the fifty states will die. Horribly. Soon. Likely in the Skrull invasion that's being hyped about. Because there is no way in hell you can write challenging but realistic stories with that kind of organization. Spider-Man is fighting the Rhino, staying alive, trying to outsmart him...and in comes the New York super-team to gang up and beat the **** out of him. She-Hulk is having the snot beat out of her by some villain...in comes the super-team for a massive cluster****. The only way to beat it realistically would be to arrange for the local super-team to be occupied or otherwise not available...which would get unbelievable fast (though marvel's never worried about that too much in the past, having the Avengers, FF, Spiderman, Daredevil, and a whole bunch of other heroes all operating out of New York).

[SteveMB]

My response will be as it always is: Law enforcement is the purview of the government. Now, if a superpowered individual doesn't want to work for the government, then he shouldn't be forced to. But, if he does not work for the government, he does not have the right or the authority to fight crime.

They don't have that right, and they never did. Fighting crime has never been the right of a citizen. That's why vigilantism is illegal.

So Spidey was legally obligated to let that burglar just run on by him way back when? Maybe that'll take the edge of all that angst....

Or maybe it'll show the absurdity of this blanket claim.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Crime fighting out of the hands of the government has always been a little tricky. On one hand, they've got to stop the sort of vigilanteism that crops up out of unecessary fear and anger, and on the other, how are you supposed to tell the man being robbed that he can't try to stop the thug, and no one in the vicinity is allowed to help out?

What heroes should be held accountable for is the damage they cause on route to catching criminals, and the various laws they break while crimefighting, from breaking and entering to unprovoked assault in many cases. Heroes cause a lot of destruction themselves, and it can be argued that a lot of innocents have got to be dying due to their own actions. If someone's going that far out, they ought to register with the government or accept that they are permanently outside the law and thus criminals themselves.

But I still say superhumans shouldn't be forced to register unless they choose to be crimefighters.

[SilveryCord]

Captain America could lift 800 pounds. He was the peak of human perfection, not technically superhuman.

A normal human's wrists would snap at roughly 500 pounds, if they could lift that much.

Superhuman.

[lord_khaine]

what i find most annoying about that 51 state initiative is that it make it look like about 90% of the worlds superhero population lives in the states...

[Tokiko Mima]

A normal human's wrists would snap at roughly 500 pounds, if they could lift that much.

Superhuman.

The current world record for weight lifting is 472.5 kg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_lifting) There are 2.2 pounds in a kilogram. Now, these aren't normal human limits and most people would break their wrists under that strain, but it's certainly not outside the bounds of possibility for Captain America to lift a measly 800 lbs. The outside limits for human physical capacity are pretty incredible, I think.

[T.Titan]

what i find most annoying about that 51 state initiative is that it make it look like about 90% of the worlds superhero population lives in the states...

... and more then half of them in NYC.


And as said before, all things superheroes can do wrong while unregistered are already illegal... you can arrest them on that instead of a law that just bypasses the need for evidence.

[Hushdawg]

A normal human's wrists would snap at roughly 500 pounds, if they could lift that much.

Superhuman.

The world record for a clean and jerk (where the weight is lifted and pressed above the head) is 581lbs.

His wrists didn't snap and he was not on steroids (2004 olympics).

Unless you are talking about a squat press (bar is braced across the shoulders and the legs are doing the lifting)

That world record is 1200lbs

Or are you talking about bench press?

That record is 1010lbs

So yeah, looks like we have a lot of superhuman people walking around in the real world.

The only registration they have is as sports competitors.

[Hushdawg]

The current world record for weight lifting is 472.5 kg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_lifting) There are 2.2 pounds in a kilogram. Now, these aren't normal human limits and most people would break their wrists under that strain, but it's certainly not outside the bounds of possibility for Captain America to lift a measly 800 lbs. The outside limits for human physical capacity are pretty incredible, I think.

Ooh I forgot about the snatch.. you're right..

The snatch lift record did get broken in Athens I think.. it was unmoved since the 70s if I recall.

There's a thousand-pounder right there!

[Hushdawg]

So Spidey was legally obligated to let that burglar just run on by him way back when? Maybe that'll take the edge of all that angst....

Or maybe it'll show the absurdity of this blanket claim.

I find it interesting that people make this claim, yet neglect to realize that when citizens stop robberies or take down wanted prisoners that they are praised and given awards.

So superheroes are basically doing the same thing except they aren't asking for the awards and attention (well, most of them aren't).

[JDMSJR]

A normal human's wrists would snap at roughly 500 pounds, if they could lift that much.

Superhuman.

The current world record in the Bench Press is 1010lbs. Maybe 800 was superhuman back in 1950 or so, but not today.