Printed uses of Wish/Limited Wish

[Zanos]

So wish and limited wish are pretty versatile spells, but what exactly you can do safely is rather rigidly defined. I'm curious if books outsider of core have expanded or given examples of Wish or Limited Wish being used successfully for things that are not on the core list of safe uses. Does anyone have any examples?

[Fizban]

Only one I know off the top of my head is that Savage Species lets you use Wish with a spellcraft check to turn yourself into another creature. With a measly DC30, and since you check for each ability you could actually skip problematic things like racial HD or vulnerabilities. For all the length of the section it's still not super clear, otherwise I expect it'd see a lot more use in ridiculous theoretical char op.

While not an unlisted use per se, there are a couple handy spells you might as well get for free if you have Limited Wish. Permanency's minimum cost is only 50xp less than LM itself, with most of the effects costing more, so Limited Wish matches the cost and there's no downside. There's also Psychic Reformation, which thanks to magic/psionics transparency can let you repick spells as easily as powers. The minimum 300xp cost of LM means you can't do small adjustments, but being able to repick your last 6 or levels of skills feats and spells in addition to whatever else you might have taken Limited Wish for is kinda huge. Revenance and Revivify both useful to have at a moment's notice for avoiding xp loss from death. Ruby Ray of Reversal has some automatic dispelling and a unique ability to poke holes in force effects without ending them. Animate Dead, Create Undead, Animate Dread Warrior, and other minion creation spells are duplicable, with the xp cost of LM itself overwritten by their own. Since it doesn't care about esoteric components, LM can get you Call Faithful Servants easily enough. There's probably a whole handbook somewhere.

[Emperor Tippy]

There's also Psychic Reformation, which thanks to magic/psionics transparency can let you repick spells as easily as powers.
No, it doesn't.

Strict RAW, Psychic Reformation under Transparency does not allow the repicking of spells.



When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

SR=PR, Dispel Magic = Dispel Psionics, Detect Magic = Detect Psionics, and Dead Magic = Dead Psionics is the sum total of transparency.

Even if the vast majority of this boards members really don't seem to realize that.

So no, a Sorcerer can not use Limited Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation to re-pick his Spells Known. That people insist on continuing to repeat this bit of utterly unambiguous rules illegal advice is one of my peeves.

[Âmesang]

So all it'd take is 4,000 gp and 4 weeks to research a "magic reformation," no?

[Psyren]

Only one I know off the top of my head is that Savage Species lets you use Wish with a spellcraft check to turn yourself into another creature. With a measly DC30, and since you check for each ability you could actually skip problematic things like racial HD or vulnerabilities. For all the length of the section it's still not super clear, otherwise I expect it'd see a lot more use in ridiculous theoretical char op.

Actually, SS specifically says this use is unsafe:


Casting wish to become a new kind of creature, with full access to all extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities (see End Result, below), while retaining Intelligence, memory, and personality, falls under the "wishing for greater effects" rules in the spell description. While this is the quickest method of transformation and potentially the least expensive, it has substantial risks.

[ComaVision]

I believe the Lich Queen's Beloved adventure from Dungeon Magazine #100 has the BBEG using Wish to siphon a dead god's power.

[Inevitability]

Baldur's Gate II has a sidequest that ends with the player getting a Limited Wish. Amongst the effects are, for example, summoning six hostile vampires.

[Fizban]

No, it doesn't.

Strict RAW, Psychic Reformation under Transparency does not allow the repicking of spells.



SR=PR, Dispel Magic = Dispel Psionics, Detect Magic = Detect Psionics, and Dead Magic = Dead Psionics is the sum total of transparency.

Even if the vast majority of this boards members really don't seem to realize that.

So no, a Sorcerer can not use Limited Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation to re-pick his Spells Known. That people insist on continuing to repeat this bit of utterly unambiguous rules illegal advice is one of my peeves.
The old "increase strictness until it matches my views" argument. The very first part of the section you cut out says:

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.
Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
You can either read the rest of the text as being the only possible applications of the rule, or being an inexhaustive list of the most obvious conversions. If you try to dupe a power with Limited Wish and go to the transparency section, it's not covered by the specific examples but it's still easily covered by the broad rule. Limited Wish asks if that's a spell, sees that because powers interact with spells as if they were spells it should proceed as if it were a spell, sees that the level is 4th, and does the job.

I seem to remember you also support Selective Antimagic field as making people untouchable by spells, another thing the vast majority of the board seems to think works when it doesn't. One of my peeves.

Actually, SS specifically says this use is unsafe:
The risks which are covered by the spellcraft check system right below that, which is laughably easy to deal with. I was actually citing it incorrectly, you need a higher DC40 on each check to get the ability without fail, but that's they only risk given. So taking the "strict RAW" approach it's perfectly easy.

[Calthropstu]

No, it doesn't.

Strict RAW, Psychic Reformation under Transparency does not allow the repicking of spells.



SR=PR, Dispel Magic = Dispel Psionics, Detect Magic = Detect Psionics, and Dead Magic = Dead Psionics is the sum total of transparency.

Even if the vast majority of this boards members really don't seem to realize that.

So no, a Sorcerer can not use Limited Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation to re-pick his Spells Known. That people insist on continuing to repeat this bit of utterly unambiguous rules illegal advice is one of my peeves.

I use a psionics-magic limited integration, so not in my games. Essentially, it really comes down to what the gm's interpretation is though. Gm alliws it, it's allowed. Personally I think it's murky in 3.5.

In pathfinder, it explicitly allows spells to be rechosen.

[Âmesang]

Honestly if a 4th-level power allows you to replace powers, why shouldn't a 7th-level spell allow you to replace spells via the "produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" clause (especially if you consider replicating 4th-level and lower powers as being equivalent to "duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it's of a prohibited school")?

If all else fails, the Simbul from FORGOTTEN REALMS® is said to use wish to replace one known spell with another (Epic Level Handbook, p.296), so at least that's something that wish could theoretically do for others.

[Psyren]

The risks which are covered by the spellcraft check system right below that, which is laughably easy to deal with. I was actually citing it incorrectly, you need a higher DC40 on each check to get the ability without fail, but that's they only risk given. So taking the "strict RAW" approach it's perfectly easy.

The spellcraft check is given as an example of a threshold the DM can impose for the ritual to succeed ("For instance.") It is by no means a hard-and-fast rule.

[Emperor Tippy]

The old "increase strictness until it matches my views" argument. The very first part of the section you cut out says:

You can either read the rest of the text as being the only possible applications of the rule, or being an inexhaustive list of the most obvious conversions. If you try to dupe a power with Limited Wish and go to the transparency section, it's not covered by the specific examples but it's still easily covered by the broad rule. Limited Wish asks if that's a spell, sees that because powers interact with spells as if they were spells it should proceed as if it were a spell, sees that the level is 4th, and does the job.

No, I support the rules actually doing what they say that they do.

The rules for Transparency lay out four specific things that it covers. If you want something more general then, by RAW, you need to go to the Magic Mantle's enhanced Transparency.


Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

That is all transparency does per the rules. To get anything else out of that part of the rules requires a fundamental inability to read the section in question. It's frankly on par with using the italicized text at the very top of a spell description in the PHB as firm rules on what the spell does.

Can you use Limited Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation? Yes, but only because of if being an effect of a similar power level to what is allowed - not specifically because Limited Wish has a listed ability to replicate psionic powers.

Does that matter? No.

Psychic Reformation says "The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. "

Unless you have the Magic Mantle then Spells and Powers are not the same thing by the rules and per an utterly unambiguous reading of the text of Psychic Reformation it can not be used to alter spell selection.


I seem to remember you also support Selective Antimagic field as making people untouchable by spells, another thing the vast majority of the board seems to think works when it doesn't. One of my peeves.

Because it does. Anti-Magic Field suppresses any spell inside its covered area. Selective makes an individual totally immune to a given effect (in this case the AMF). That immunity applies to that character alone. Being immune to the AMF you are free to cast whatever you want because the spells count as part of you generally, but the area that you are located in still stops the magic of everyone else.

You cast a spell, it is suppressed as soon as it enter the geographic area covered by the AMF (regardless of any creatures inside the AMF).
I cast a spell, it is treated as if the AMF does not exist because Selective lets me ignore the effects of the AMF.

Selective doesn't, however, let you cast anything without any issue. If you cast a Summon spell then it would pop out of existence as soon as the spell was successfully cast, being after that point its own discrete magical effect and thus no longer protected by Selective. If you cast a Dominate spell on someone inside the AMF then it would take effect and then be instantly suppressed as it transitioned from being a spell in being into an active magical effect on the target; coming back up as soon as the AMF ceases to cover the target.

---
The rules say what they say. Reading Psychic Reformation as allowing a Sorcerer to repick his spells known isn't just interpreting a rules ambiguity; it is flat out ignoring the very explicit rules for both Psychic Reformation and for Psionic-Magic Transparency.

[Fizban]

That is all transparency does per the rules. To get anything else out of that part of the rules requires a fundamental inability to read the section in question. It's frankly on par with using the italicized text at the very top of a spell description in the PHB as firm rules on what the spell does.
Assuming you read the bolded line as precluding any other effects, which the rest of us are not. Unless you want to dig up some sort of English textbook that proves that's the only legitimate reading (as if the writers know their own English perfectly), or a legal textbook to prove it that way (even less valid). Oh, and there are in fact spells that require the italicized flavor text to finish describing the effect, since their non-italicized text is missing information.

Because it does. Anti-Magic Field suppresses any spell inside its covered area. Selective makes an individual totally immune to a given effect (in this case the AMF). That immunity applies to that character alone. Being immune to the AMF you are free to cast whatever you want because the spells count as part of you generally, but the area that you are located in still stops the magic of everyone else.
Yeah no, that's not how it works.

You cast a spell, it is suppressed as soon as it enter the geographic area covered by the AMF (regardless of any creatures inside the AMF).
I cast a spell, it is treated as if the AMF does not exist because Selective lets me ignore the effects of the AMF.
Because spells don't vanish just because there's an AMF between the caster and target.

Spells don't function in an antimagic area, but an antimagic area doesn't block line of effect.
They have explicitly clarified the PHB text (which already allowed this), there is nothing stopping people outside the field from casting spells through it. By making yourself unaffected by the field, targeted spells can go right through the field and hit you. The field doesn't affect you, hey that's great, this targeted spell needs to not be suppressed and things targeting you are the only things not suppressed, how convenient.

[Gemini476]

The rules for Transparency lay out four specific things that it covers. If you want something more general then, by RAW, you need to go to the Magic Mantle's enhanced Transparency.

Note that while the RAW is extremely ambiguous, it's also very clear that what the Magic Mantle is supposed to do is just turn on the standard transparency rules in a campaign using the "psionics are different" variant. I mean, it literally says that most campaigns already work the way Magic Mantle does.

Not, y'know, use UPD in place of UMD and craft wands of Ego Whip and whatever other TO tricks people like to use it for.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Assuming you read the bolded line as precluding any other effects, which the rest of us are not.

Well, I do too.

IMHO, if something is described as having a concrete, finite list of effects, and the description does not contain phrases like “among other things” or “for example”, then the reasonable assumption is that the list contains all effects there are. (Unless there are concrete reasons that indicate that the list may be incomplete. “I wish it would do x.” is not a concrete reason in that sense.)

On a more general level, if even Tippy says that your interpretation of a rule may be a little cheesy – from a purely statistical perspective, there’s a decent chance that it is.

[Fizban]

That's kinda the whole reason I called him out: plenty of TO stuff uses rulings just as or even more ambiguous, including the stuff Tippy got his reputation for (no use reopening all those here mind you, there's a chance someone still has useful Wish examples for the thread). All those rules can be read permissively or restrictively, I could use the permissive reading as RAW today, then turn around tomorrow and use the restrictive reading as RAW. Just a reminder that no matter how many people or how large the personality says something is RAW, something somewhere is gonna rely on a reading that can be easily disagreed with.

Best place to look for alternate uses of Wish is probably gonna be adventures. Also, now that I think about it, "restore lost souls" is probably worth writing down. It varies based on the effect, but most soul destroying effects say they can be reversed by Wish.

[Albions_Angel]

While I would have to agree with the "strict" reading of the transparency rules, I do want to share some insight and perhaps defuse the situation a little.

First up, those rules. They follow a fairly common formula set out in 3.5. Most rules/feats/abilities/spells have a small piece of "soft crunch" or even fluff before the actual rules. I am not talking about italic texts, which is often a depiction of something happening in an actual game situation, but something like this:


Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

Fireball does it too. Most spells do. Lots of the rules do too. They are soft crunch/hard fluff. Useful for describing things, but have no real effect on the game. Now, I would say an out of context reading of the transparency rules would label that first part as soft crunch. Then it gets to the actual rules. But I can see how it can be read differently.

And thats the important part.

Lets all say it together:


Rule 0: The DM is ALWAYS right.

I cant hear you, boys and girls. Lets try again.


Rule 0: The DM is ALWAYS right.

Thats better.

Look, when us 3.5 players say that, its either in reference to stopping crazy cheese, to homebrew, or bad DM experiences (often with eye rolling). But, and I hate to say it, those guys on the 5e forums have GOT IT RIGHT. Rule 0 isnt so the DM can mess with rules they dont like. Its because the RULES DONT ACTUALLY MATTER. WotC havnt created the perfect game and no one is allowed to change it. No. They created a set of guide lines to make DM's lives easier.

Hell, you can do away with ability scores and just run the game like that. Its not 3.5e, but its got elements of 3.5 and a bunch of other rules the DM has come up with. So if you want to read a rule in a less common way (even if that way is the first way that you think of), thats totally fine. If you want to rewrite the whole rule, thats cool too. Or scrap it. Whatever you want. And you can disagree, and chat about it, but dont blow up over it. Lord knows I am just as guilty as anyone (usually when I come looking for some mid-op optimization and get told to slap a god wizard onto it).

Us 3.5 players. We like our rules. 3.5 is OLD, and has rulebooks upon rulebooks. It has the d20 system that spawned a HUGE 3rd party, semi official list. D&Dwiki has pages and pages of homebrew, far more than the actual SRD. And just when we all thought it was dead, Pathfinder happens. We outlived 4th ed, and may well outlive 5th. But we like our rules and so we forget that the books are just guidelines. That often the books are WRONG.

For my part, I would run (if I ran psionics, I currently dont) transparency rules as RAW. By the looks of it, most of the people on here would run it in some form of RAI, and maybe even RTTE (rules taken to extremes, and though that sounds negative, its not). Thats cool. If I ever play at your table, I will enjoy that. If you ever play at mine, please respect me. And I am happy to have a chat about interpretations any time. But not arguments. We are one step away from flaming... again.

So, without further ado...



Printed uses of Wish and Limited Wish.

I know of one I havnt seen on here. Maybe I missed it. Killing the tarrasque requires it.

[Evolved Shrimp]

All those rules can be read permissively or restrictively,

That was my point: I don’t consider it “permissive” to assume that, when something is listed with a finite list of concrete effects, it has additional effects that are not listed.

That would be like assuming when a trip to Florida is advertised as “visiting the famous cities of Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, and Orlando” you would also get to see Miami.

You can wish to do so, and it’s a perfectly acceptable wish. But there simply isn’t anything in the written text to support that specific interpretation, and you cannot reasonable cite the text in support of your wish.

[Extra Anchovies]

Printed uses of Wish and Limited Wish.

I know of one I haven't seen on here. Maybe I missed it. Killing the tarrasque requires it.

Here's everything else I could find in core and MM2.
Limited Wish or Wish
Restoring elementals or outsiders to life
Remove or undo effects of Geas/Quest (Remove Curse works in some cases), Mark of Justice (Break Enchantment works, Remove Curse works in some cases), Bestow Curse (Break Enchantment and Remove Curse work), Insanity (Greater Restoration and Heal also work), and pixies' Memory Loss arrows
Restore a creature affected by the Confusion ability of a Rogue Eidolon (MM2)
Wish
Undo effects of Microcosm
Reveal location of a creature affected by Imprisonment
Restore to life a creature slain by Destruction (in conjunction with Resurrection)
Polymorph 8.5 tons of iron to mithril (mithril golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm#mithralGolem))
Polymorph 22.5 tons of iron to adamantine (adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm#adamantineGolem))
Restore to life a creature absorbed by a Flesh Jelly (MM2)
Restore a creature transformed into a Meenlock (MM2)
Restore to life a creature absorbed by a Teratomorph (MM2)

I'd wager there's a number of other effects scattered throughout various splats that can be removed by LW/W, kill you so hard you can't be restored without LW/W, or bring the monster back unless you cast LW/W to keep it dead, but I haven't the time to search for them at the moment.

It may also be possible to change to a different race via Wish.

It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race.
However, it doesn't say it's possible for those effects to safely change to a different race, so this one is iffy.

[Âmesang]

If we can step back in time to 2nd Edition (via Wizards' Conversion Manual (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/conversionbook.zip)), Slerotin's fortitude from DRAGON Magazine #241 makes an area of non-magical, inorganic material impervious to magical or physical harm; only a wish can bring down the effect.

However the spell can be cast on the same area multiple times, requiring multiple wishes to remove.

[Willie the Duck]

It's frankly on par with using the italicized text at the very top of a spell description in the PHB as firm rules on what the spell does.

I've long since made clear my opinion about the intrinsic value of rigid devotion to RAW, but out of curiosity--where or when did we as a gaming community (if we ever did) decide that these weren't part of the 'firm rules on what the spell does?' There's no clear rules-for-how-to-read-things type rule that would say that this is how one is supposed to do it. So who or what delineates those as specifically flavor text? I'm genuinely curious.

[Beheld]

@Tippy:

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Transparency thing.

First it states a rule, then it says "When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications."

I see nothing about that sentence as precluding other effects of the rule or making the previous statement of the rule not a rule.

Things have ramifications that are results of their rules, if you were to say "the ramification of SLA's having no XP cost is that Wish SLAs can make any item at basically no cost" that does not imply you are now stating the text of the rule, it means you are stating an application of the rule. Which means that if some (non-exclusive) applications of the rule are posted below, something else, the actual rule, must be stated above.

[Psyren]

I've long since made clear my opinion about the intrinsic value of rigid devotion to RAW, but out of curiosity--where or when did we as a gaming community (if we ever did) decide that these weren't part of the 'firm rules on what the spell does?' There's no clear rules-for-how-to-read-things type rule that would say that this is how one is supposed to do it. So who or what delineates those as specifically flavor text? I'm genuinely curious.

I treat those as rules text, but in the event that they contradict the more detailed text of the spell in its entry, the entry is the more specific source and thus trumps. If however the italicized text does not contradict the entry but instead provides additional context, both are usable in RAW (and RAI) discussions.

For example, Shadow Conjuration is limited in the kinds of conjurations you can duplicate with it, but the summary text doesn't mention this restriction. The entry is more detailed however and therefore those restrictions apply.

[icefractal]

I'd say that the Limited Wish Psychic Reformation would work, regardless of whether transparency makes Psychic Reformation's "forget powers acquired" count as "forget spells acquired". It would work because Limited Wish can "produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects", and a version of PsyRef that changed spells known instead of powers known qualifies as that, IMO.

Re: Selective AMF - I'd have to agree that it doesn't protect against targeted spells, for the same reason that it allows you to keep your own buff spells. Still a useful spell, since it blocks AoE effects and screws with anyone trying to melee you, it just isn't perfect immunity.

[Zanos]

Mostly it seems to be reversing other effects, although polymorphing metals into other, more valuable metals permanently and on a massive scale is certainly a very interesting use. Converting 8.5 tons of iron(which costs 5,000 gp, apparently) to mithral is a rather pretty penny, as mithral is worth 500gp per pound. I don't know if mass or volume is conserved, but either way that's a lot of money for a single a wish.

For the psi-magic thing, The stuff after the "has the following ramifications" does not contradict the statement before it, so all the rules in that heading should apply.

[nyjastul69]

Mostly it seems to be reversing other effects, although polymorphing metals into other, more valuable metals permanently and on a massive scale is certainly a very interesting use. Converting 8.5 tons of iron(which costs 5,000 gp, apparently) to mithral is a rather pretty penny, as mithral is worth 500gp per pound. I don't know if mass or volume is conserved, but either way that's a lot of money for a single a wish.

For the psi-magic thing, The stuff after the "has the following ramifications" does not contradict the statement before it, so all the rules in that heading should apply.

I wouldn't worry about mass energy conservation. That's not a thing. Crushing an economy however, is a thing. I would worry about that.

[Zanos]

I wouldn't worry about mass energy conservation. That's not a thing. Crushing an economy however, is a thing. I would worry about that.
I was more wondering whether or not it turned 8.5 tons of iron into 8.5 tons of mithral, or 8.5 tons of iron into an equal volume of mithral.

In either case, I think that golem is worth a lot more than the writers considered.

[Fizban]

It's pretty obvious they knew full well that much mithril or adamantine would be impossibly expensive, hence the transmutation. Originally it was Polymorph Any Object, but they removed all references to PAO after a while when they realized it was completely broken, possibly in part due to the fact that it could do that. So it was replaced with Wish.

[Evolved Shrimp]

A wish can repair all wild magic or dead magic zones in a 30' radius, except wild magic effects caused by a mythal (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p55/56).

[Jowgen]

I believe the Lich Queen's Beloved adventure from Dungeon Magazine #100 has the BBEG using Wish to siphon a dead god's power.

I have checked up on this adventure, and ComaVision is largely correct. I quote:

"Capturing the Life-spark of a dead God isn't a simple task, but Vlaakith believes she can accomplish her goal using multiple wishes. The endeavor has cost Vlaakith thousands of wish spells over her millennia-long reign. [Bit about her killing her own people to make up for the exp loss each time]. How many wish spells does it take to capture the spark of divinity? The answer is unknown, but after a thousand years of casting spells and calling out to The One in the Void, Vlaakith believes her time is near."

Vlaakith is correct.

"If the PCs fail to destroy the lich-queen and her phylactery, she will eventually achieve godhood by capturing the divine spark of the One in the Void."

Since it specifies an actual millenia, there is a rough guideline here. Assuming she can recover 5000 exp in a day, which is made easier by her Artifact that lets her turn corpses into 100xHD exp for casting, we're talking around 365000-ish Wishes. That takes one billion eight hundred twenty-five million exp.

[Psyren]

"If the PCs fail to destroy the lich-queen and her phylactery, she will eventually achieve godhood by capturing the divine spark of the One in the Void."

Since it specifies an actual millenia, there is a rough guideline here. Assuming she can recover 5000 exp in a day, which is made easier by her Artifact that lets her turn corpses into 100xHD exp for casting, we're talking around 365000-ish Wishes. That takes one billion eight hundred twenty-five million exp.

Not to complicate your math, but it says she'll "eventually" achieve godhood if they fail. This could be 10 minutes after they fail to stop her, 10 days, or 10,000 more years.

[Gemini476]

Also, there's a bit of a difference between "thousands of wishes" and three hundred sixty five thousand wishes. I'd chalk it up to a lack of math, but there's also the bit where she needs fifty hit dice worth of corpses to cast a wish using that artifact. Also, the bit where the MM says that she devours the souls of 16th-level githyanki or whatever it is.

My point is, 365,000 wishes would take 18,250,000HD to pull off. Assuming that they're equally spread over her thousand-year-reign, that's 18,250HD a year.

That would take a lot of corpses. How many githyanki are there, anyway?

[Name1]

Not to complicate your math, but it says she'll "eventually" achieve godhood if they fail. This could be 10 minutes after they fail to stop her, 10 days, or 10,000 more years.

Well, what we do know, however, is that it will be in a timespan during which no other party comes along that is capable of killing her... After all, if another party would be able to do it, she would only achieve godhood if these fail too, but she achieves godhood if this specific group of adventurers fail.

I'd give it 5 millenia, tops.

[Inevitability]

Well, what we do know, however, is that it will be in a timespan during which no other party comes along that is capable of killing her... After all, if another party would be able to do it, she would only achieve godhood if these fail too, but she achieves godhood if this specific group of adventurers fail.

I'd give it 5 millenia, tops.

Actually, with every player demanding a reroll after their adventurers die, it'd be more like 5 minutes. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Well, what we do know, however, is that it will be in a timespan during which no other party comes along that is capable of killing her... After all, if another party would be able to do it, she would only achieve godhood if these fail too, but she achieves godhood if this specific group of adventurers fail.

I'd give it 5 millenia, tops.

It's likely that only the specific PCs in that module were able to figure out what she was up to in that length of time. The breadcrumbs they followed are probably gone after they fail, so we can't conclude on the difficulty of her method purely from that information as it might take the next party 10x as long to find her, if they can even figure it out at all.