Weight limits for a Goliath Barbarian w/Aspect of the Beast (Bear)

[odigity]

I just started a new character that is both my first Barbarian as well as my first Goliath (Lvl 3, Str 16), so I'm looking into the weight limit rules now:


Barbarian, Aspect of the Beast (Bear): Your carrying capacity (including maximum load and maximum lift) is doubled...

Goliath, Powerful Build: You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.

PHB176: For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift.


So a Goliath Barbarian with Aspect of the Beast (Bear) can carry/lift/etc four times as much as a normal char with the same Str score? (In my case, 960 lbs / 1,920 lbs.)

BTW - It's pretty generous that a commoner with Str 10 can deadlift 300lbs. :)

[Wondermndjr]

Yes, I believe they do stack. This basically means you can pick up and throw enemies. Aspect of the Beast is a 6th level feature though so you shouldn't have it yet.

[Pikkle]

BTW - It's pretty generous that a commoner with Str 10 can deadlift 300lbs. :)

Your average commoner is also probably working for 10-14 hours a day at something manual and strenuous like farming.

[odigity]

Aspect of the Beast is a 6th level feature though so you shouldn't have it yet.

I'm aware. :)


This basically means you can pick up and throw enemies. Aspect of the Beast is a 6th level feature though so you shouldn't have it yet.

How does that work mechanically? Use one attack to grapple them, then use a second attack to throw them as a ranged weapon attack with an improvised weapon? What would be the range? I don't recall rules on generalized range limits for throwing misc objects. And that still leaves open the question of how much dmg they'd take when they hit, and how much dmg they'd do to the target they were thrown at...

[JellyPooga]

How does that work mechanically?

Unfortunately, there are no rules for throwing enemies. If you want to do it in a game, check with your GM. Otherwise, you're stuck with the regular grapple rules and just have a phenomenal carry weight that functionally does nothing except allow you to lug tons of loot or drag a train with your nipple piercings or something...

[Naanomi]

Once you can lift enough, it becomes a part of exploration. Find the statue/pillar/giant's body near your weight limit... carry it through the dungeon, use it as a makeshift ladder or bridge, to block a door, to set it on an enemy so he can't escape while you interrogate him.

Giant tree asking you riddles, forcing you to answer them before you can pass? Haul that thing right out of the fey-wood and keep moving.

Can't pick the lock on the sarcophagus? Just take it with you!

Heck, adamantine doors and jeweled background statues become the best loot in the dungeon as soon as you can move them easily

[odigity]

Otherwise, you're stuck with the regular grapple rules and just have a phenomenal carry weight that functionally does nothing except allow you to lug tons of loot or drag a train with your nipple piercings or something...

Nobody cares about carrying capacity.

However, push / drag / lift is useful. What if there's a giant bolder blocking a cave entrance, and the party doesn't have Telekineses? Or you want to shove a siege engine off a ramp?

But really, they ought to develop some throwing rules so you can really make use of your strength. I should be able to toss my ally up to the top of a tower to save them the time of climbing.

[Socratov]

I'd rule that if you'd improvise thrown enemies as weapons (through tavern brawler) that you follow the line set out by tavern brawler:

Tavern brawler makes an improvised weapon (from fists to chairs) to do 1d4. Another weapon we know doing 1d4 is a dagger: you could say that with tavern brawler everything in your hands becomes as effective as a dagger (minus the light and finesse properties, but who cares about them right?) So I'd give the enemy a damage rating of 1d4 with a range of 20|80 and the thrown property (no taking dex on teh ranged attack, must hurl him). Oh, and if Newton's 3rd law still mean anything, the enemy will take the same damage as the target of said thrown enemy. For those who will cry foul:

let's imagine a dude standing 10' tall, able to benchpress about half a metic ton and then ask yourself wether or not it's fun to see him wave about some enemy by his feet and throwing him 20 feet into some other unlucky red-shirt.

that woudl be soooo cool that I'd totally allow it (and it's something the at least nears the stuff mages do with Telekinesis)

[JellyPooga]

Nobody cares about carrying capacity.

I beg to differ. No-one cares about carry capacity when they have Str>10. I frequently care about carry caps, because I frequently play low-strength characters.


However, push / drag / lift is useful.

Hence my comment about nipple piercings :smallwink:

As far as throwing allies/enemies goes...I just don't buy it. Unless you're rocking supernatural Strength (i.e. >20) or actual size (no, Powerful Build doesn't count), I can't see anyone, even a Bear Totem Goliath, throwing someone far enough to be that useful. People don't, as a rule, fly that well; the aerodynamics are all wrong and people tend to flail when thrown which messes with their trajectory. Chucking your Halfling buddy over a 10ft pit is probably ok, but that 60ft chasm? Yeah, you'll need to find the bridge or get yourself magically Enlarged (leverage counts for a lot). Sure you might be able to throw a dead-weight like a shot-put or grappling hook that far, but even a corpse probably won't make it, let alone a living being. Weight and even raw strength/power don't mean squat in the face of aerodynamics; try throwing a section of polystyrene packing more than a few feet, or consider that jumbo jets actually fly and you'll see what I mean.

And seriously, if anyone comes back at me with anything along the lines of "Yeah, but magic exists in fantasy, so there, I'm allowed to defy physics even though I'm not talking about something magical and you're ruining my fun", I swear I'll scream :smallannoyed:

[Naanomi]

In all fairness, 'empowered by the mystical spirit of the bear' is hardly 'non-magical'; but that doesn't change how hard it would be to throw someone very far. Unless they are a gnome in a flight suit...

[JellyPooga]

Unless they are a gnome in a flight suit...

Now that is something I could get behind! :smallbiggrin:

[smcmike]

I'm sure this is an example of the "guy at the gym fallacy" or some other such nonsense, but when it comes to throwing heavy things, think of people who actually throw heavy things - a shot put is 16 pounds and fairly aerodynamic, and some of the strongest people in the world, with years of training and perfect form, throw them 70 feet or so. It is very very hard to throw heavy things long distances.

That being said, a fair degree of leeway should be granted closer in. You want to punt a goblin across a room? Heck yes, do that. Shove one guy into his friends as they are trying to climb some stairs? Dominoes!

[Socratov]

I beg to differ. No-one cares about carry capacity when they have Str>10. I frequently care about carry caps, because I frequently play low-strength characters.

this is indeed a problem for low str characters, however, a real mage with focus won't care about anything other then its foci, costly materials and a few scrools (and possibly a spellbook/prayerbook)


Hence my comment about nipple piercings :smallwink:

As far as throwing allies/enemies goes...I just don't buy it.
well, pardon me for spoiling your argument, but you accept someone dragging a train by using nipplepiercings? but not chucking a small sized humanoid (possibly dextrous enough to take on cannonball-like characterstics)
Unless you're rocking supernatural Strength (i.e. >20) or actual size (no, Powerful Build doesn't count), I can't see anyone, even a Bear Totem Goliath, throwing someone far enough to be that useful., I'm terribly sorry, but the world record for a deadlift is 500 kg. Let's say that's a 1200 lbs for ease of calculation. for a powerful built goliath bear totem bearbearian that would make for a neccessary strength of 10. Now, we can discuss this till the end of time, but an average strength, powerful built bearbarian of lvl 6 can match the current earthly WR for Deadlift.

Now if we start about that wielding soemthing is not the same as a deadlift, let's extrapolate from another end right? Heavy weapons are wielded by characters like barbarians, paladins and fighters. Two fo those classes ahve a multiclass restriction of STR 13. Seems like a decent starting point for a greatweapon wielder, right? So you can assume that a wielding something designed to be unwieldy, but hadleable with two hands would work better from a starting point of str 13. So, Str 13 relates to a CC of 15 * 13 = 195 lbs. Let's make this 200, for ease of calcualtion and to introduce a pessimistic error on the calculations. So, if a str 16 goliath bearbarian of lvl 7 has a CC of 15 * 16 * 2 * 2 = 960, one could assume them to be able to wield about 4,5 times a heavy weapon in weight. The heaviest of which is the pike with 18 lbs. Times 4.5 that makes for a 81 lbs weapon. The weightclass of which could very well be one halfling or gnome.

Now, let's take this up a notch for a str 24 goliath bearbarian which has a CC of 1440 lbs, makeing for a heavy weapon be able to weigh up to 7 * 18 = 126 lbs. This is the weightclass of a skinny elf.




People don't, as a rule, fly that well; the aerodynamics are all wrong and people tend to flail when thrown which messes with their trajectory. Chucking your Halfling buddy over a 10ft pit is probably ok, but that 60ft chasm? Oh come one, if you woudl weaponize a halfling or gnome, make it a rogue, no reason to not take that juicy sneak attack and nobody is going to expect the Spanish Gnomequisition chucked from far away. One acrobatics check alter and we have a small humanoid hellbent on driving its rapier pointy end forward into an unsuspecting foe.
Yeah, you'll need to find the bridge or get yourself magically Enlarged (leverage counts for a lot).Not only that, it also, again, doubles the CC :smallamused:
Sure you might be able to throw a dead-weight like a shot-put or grappling hook that far, but even a corpse probably won't make it, let alone a living being. Weight and even raw strength/power don't mean squat in the face of aerodynamics; try throwing a section of polystyrene packing more than a few feet, or consider that jumbo jets actually fly and you'll see what I mean. that's unfair, polystyrene is much lighter for its volume resulting in poor impulse, which woudl be a lot less poor for something the consistency of flesh. A better comparison woudl be to throw a ham. A whole ham. Or a dead chicken (without its feathers for tight clothing assumed, with feathers for a halfling in robes). And jumbo jets (and by extention dragons) fly 'cause of magic. (and velocity, lots of velocity)


And seriously, if anyone comes back at me with anything along the lines of "Yeah, but magic exists in fantasy, so there, I'm allowed to defy physics even though I'm not talking about something magical and you're ruining my fun", I swear I'll scream :smallannoyed:

I hope I have given at least a plausible back-of-the-envelope guesstimate why it could work.

Sure, I'd take it just for the 'It's fun and woudl make for epic tales' but that clearly wasn't an option. You just had to make me murder those poor catgrils for you, didn't you.:smallmad:

The statement above is meant tongue in cheeck, though with a side note of serious discussion on throwing halflings and gnomes en weaponising them. Please don't try throwing halflings at home, I will not be responsible, nort accountable for injuries sustained while throwing other (non-)humanoids.

[Ralanr]

If you can throw at least a young adult dragon with your own strength then I'll be impressed.

[odigity]

For the record... Hercules can throw a bear into space:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOJoLaxokzM

[JellyPooga]

this is indeed a problem for low str characters, however, a real mage with focus won't care about anything other then its foci, costly materials and a few scrools (and possibly a spellbook/prayerbook)

But what about the loot? You can't trust your allies not to skim a little off the top as a "couriers fee" if you get them to lug your hard-won coin.


well, pardon me for spoiling your argument, but you accept someone dragging a train by using nipplepiercings? but not chucking a small sized humanoid (possibly dextrous enough to take on cannonball-like characterstics)

Nips aside (I'm sure I've seen a video of someone doing something silly like that, but the point I was making is that I agree that push/drag is useful...I digress), I hadn't considered an ally being cooperative and "cannonballing". I could probably go with that, sure, but if I were GMing I'd still make it an Athletics check for the thrower to get the distance and an Acrobatics check for the thrown to land safely; both of at least Moderate, if not Hard or harder difficulty (depending on the distance you want and success of the Athletics check, of course; a bad throw over long distance = ouch-town for our halfling cannonball).

I won't dissect your post too much, for the sake of the catgirls, but let me summarise by saying;
- Deadlift =/= Throw Distance
- A ham is relatively aerodynamic (akin to a shot-put). The chicken was a better example, though; something jointed, at least.
- Jets fly 'cos of aerodynamics, not velocity (though the latter is somewhat required, but not a lot; gliders fly too). I agree that Dragons fly 'cos of magic (in D&D, at least).
- I do condone using both allies and enemies as weapons, just not necessarily thrown ones.

[Socratov]

But what about the loot? You can't trust your allies not to skim a little off the top as a "couriers fee" if you get them to lug your hard-won coin.



Nips aside (I'm sure I've seen a video of someone doing something silly like that, but the point I was making is that I agree that push/drag is useful...I digress), I hadn't considered an ally being cooperative and "cannonballing". I could probably go with that, sure, but if I were GMing I'd still make it an Athletics check for the thrower to get the distance and an Acrobatics check for the thrown to land safely; both of at least Moderate, if not Hard or harder difficulty (depending on the distance you want and success of the Athletics check, of course; a bad throw over long distance = ouch-town for our halfling cannonball).

I won't dissect your post too much, for the sake of the catgirls, but let me summarise by saying;
- Deadlift =/= Throw Distance
- A ham is relatively aerodynamic (akin to a shot-put). The chicken was a better example, though; something jointed, at least.
- Jets fly 'cos of aerodynamics, not velocity (though the latter is somewhat required, but not a lot; gliders fly too). I agree that Dragons fly 'cos of magic (in D&D, at least).
- I do condone using both allies and enemies as weapons, just not necessarily thrown ones.


Well, as for why carrying capacity is useful, say you are a goliath mobile bearbarian, you can move about 50' per round, that is twice the speed of small humanoids, so when moving fast how else would you keep your collection of throwing gnomes and Range-lings on your person? Carrying Capacity, especially when lugging around lots of ammunition (no matter their ability to walk on their own two-4 legs) carrying capacity is very improtant.

Also, on who is to be trusted with your precious loot: that's why you tolerate LGLawful Stupid paladins in the party. They make for excellent masters of coin and they have a vested interest in STR as well. If they are stupid you can (when passessing a decent INT) do the calculations and make the pally your keeper of coins. Or personal walking vault.

[JellyPooga]

LGLawful Stupid paladins

So they do have a use after all...

[CursedRhubarb]

It makes sense that you would be able to throw an enemy into a surface or another enemy for damage. They would likely fall under the improvised weapon rules and only do 1d4 but it would be great battlefield control and a great way to work those intimidation rolls.

As for distance, you can throw a person a good distance. Think of summer pool or lake parties where the big guy picks someone up and tosses them off the end of the dock. Just a normal guy can toss someone of similar size about 10'-15'. To picture a halfling or gnome think of an adult tossing a kid, can easily get double the distance since they are smaller and lighter. For a Goliath, even a standard human would be like tossing a kid. A gnome or halfling would get great distance. 1d4 would make sense since there is an impact and they aren't in control of the movement. I suppose another way would to use falling rules and treat a trow as a 10' fall so 1d6 falling damage on the one thrown, and the goon they hit 1d4 for getting hit with an improvised weapon.

[Tanarii]

But what about the loot? You can't trust your allies not to skim a little off the top as a "couriers fee" if you get them to lug your hard-won coin.Yeah, people love to handwave this part away. It's all very nice to loot those 105 pp and 2100 gp, but when they're mixed in with 7000 sp and 700cp you're either spending precious time in the dungeon fighting off hordes while separating your hoard, or hauling 198 lb load out to somewhere safe. And that doesn't even account for when the loot is tapestries, or the Venus Di Milo. Or at higher levels where you might find a thousand lbs worth of coins with the few precious gems mixed in.

(Obviously the game provides various solutions to the loot weight problems. But many D&D players seem to just skip past all that.)

[Naanomi]

In 2012 the world record for throwing another person was 5.4 meters; about 18 feet... though they did use a harness. Given that, I revise my opinion and say that a super-strong bearbarian goliath could probably hurl someone a reasonable combat distance; lets say the combined X4 lifting power translates roughly to X2 throwing distance and ballpark a 35-40ft 'long range', perhaps more for a small character?

[Socratov]

So they do have a use after all...

Until recently I neve rleft home wihtout one.

Now I regret making it for myself possible to use subtle metamagic Charm Person on someone strong to carry my stuff...

[NNescio]

I'd rule that if you'd improvise thrown enemies as weapons (through tavern brawler) that you follow the line set out by tavern brawler:

Tavern brawler makes an improvised weapon (from fists to chairs) to do 1d4. Another weapon we know doing 1d4 is a dagger: you could say that with tavern brawler everything in your hands becomes as effective as a dagger (minus the light and finesse properties, but who cares about them right?) So I'd give the enemy a damage rating of 1d4 with a range of 20|80 and the thrown property (no taking dex on teh ranged attack, must hurl him). Oh, and if Newton's 3rd law still mean anything, the enemy will take the same damage as the target of said thrown enemy. For those who will cry foul:

Eh, strictly speaking, if an improvised weapon "is similar to an actual weapon", it "can be treated as such", as per page 147 of the PHB. Most of the time something handheld is likely going to be treated as a club or dagger (i.e. shiv), dealing 1d4, but if you can carry large heavy objects remember to remind the DM that the sheer weight of the object would make it function like a greatclub or maul instead (or well, just carry a sledgehammer around, which is definitely as close to a maul as it can get). If you're familiar with the MM, you might be able to persuade your DM further to treat it similarly to one of those large monster weapon attacks with increased damage dice.

Only objects that "bears no resemblance to a weapon" default to 1d4 damage (damage type at the DM's choice, as appropriate for the object), as per PHB 148.


In 2012 the world record for throwing another person was 5.4 meters; about 18 feet... though they did use a harness. Given that, I revise my opinion and say that a super-strong bearbarian goliath could probably hurl someone a reasonable combat distance; lets say the combined X4 lifting power translates roughly to X2 throwing distance and ballpark a 35-40ft 'long range', perhaps more for a small character?

Improvised thrown weapons have a range of 20/60, as per PHB 148.

[Socratov]

entirely reasonable. I'd endorse it.

[odigity]

Related question, since there's some debate about throwing...

What if you just pick up an enemy by the legs and use him as a greatclub in melee for 1d10? Can you argue that when you attack and hit a second creature for X dmg, the creature you're swinging should also take the same damage due to Newton's Laws?

You'd still have to burn an action for in the initial grapple, but then you get the benefit of doing double dmg with each attack until the victim-weapon is dead, then spend another action to grapple the next closest victim-weapon...

EDIT: Cast Enlarge on the Goliath Bearbarian so he can pick up a Huge creature to bash another creature with (legal to grapple, can lift if under Str * 120 lbs). That'll teach those enemy spellcasters not to turn their friends into Giant Apes...

[Socratov]

Related question, since there's some debate about throwing...

What if you just pick up an enemy by the legs and use him as a greatclub in melee for 1d10? Can you argue that when you attack and hit a second creature for X dmg, the creature you're swinging should also take the same damage due to Newton's Laws?

You'd still have to burn an action for in the initial grapple, but then you get the benefit of doing double dmg with each attack until the victim-weapon is dead, then spend another action to grapple the next closest victim-weapon...

EDIT: Cast Enlarge on the Goliath Bearbarian so he can pick up a Huge creature to bash another creature with (legal to grapple, can lift if under Str * 120 lbs). That'll teach those enemy spellcasters not to turn their friends into Giant Apes...
Imagine an enlarged goliath, wielding a polymorphed halfling Giant Ape, wielding a greatclub.

I don't think any game can contain the awesome of that concept.

[Maxilian]

Imagine an enlarged goliath, wielding a polymorphed halfling Giant Ape, wielding a greatclub.

I don't think any game can contain the awesome of that concept.

Make the Halfling a Sun Soul Monk, and you have an Enlarged Goliath, throwing a Giant Ape with a Greatclub that shoots lasers from its eyes!!!

[Socratov]

Make the Halfling a Sun Soul Monk, and you have an Enlarged Goliath, throwing a Giant Ape with a Greatclub that shoots lasers from its eyes!!!

Ehm, we should start to be careful not to create an awesomeness singularity.