The Gate spell OR what's a unique creature

[Name1]

Ok... so I have a question: What exactly is a unique creature? For example, if I have a Level 20 Fighter named George, and I call George via the spell, does he get a choice to come?

"By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.
Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord."

The first sentence says yes, because a particular being can be named and forced to serve without a save, "willing or unwilling".
The second sentence says no, because unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate.

So... where is the difference between a particular being and a unique being?
Is George unique because he is George the level 20 Fighter, a particular being given that he is a level 20 Fighter named George, or doesn't he get a save due to being a "kind of being", as in, a level 20 Fighter?

[ryu]

Ok... so I have a question: What exactly is a unique creature? For example, if I have a Level 20 Fighter named George, and I call George via the spell, does he get a choice to come?

"By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.
Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord."

The first sentence says yes, because a particular being can be named and forced to serve without a save, "willing or unwilling".
The second sentence says no, because unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate.

So... where is the difference between a particular being and a unique being?
Is George unique because he is George the level 20 Fighter, a particular being given that he is a level 20 Fighter named George, or doesn't he get a save due to being a "kind of being", as in, a level 20 Fighter?

Unique as in ''there is literally only one of this thing/species in existence.'' There's plenty of fighter 20s in existence. There's also plenty of people with that name. I'm also willing to bet you weren't thinking of a creature that's literally the last of its species in the multiverse or was never part of a species which could reproduce to begin with. This is also why they called out gods specifically. After all if having a name, something included in quite literally every statted deity block, was enough to immunize they'd ALL be protected anyways.

[Quertus]

Tarrasque is unique, you are not. Sorry, George, you are not a special snowflake.


Unique as in ''there is literally only one of this thing/species in existence.'' There's plenty of fighter 20s in existence. There's also plenty of people with that name. I'm also willing to bet you weren't thinking of a creature that's literally the last of its species in the multiverse or was never part of a species which could reproduce to begin with. This is also why they called out gods specifically. After all if having a name, something included in quite literally every statted deity block, was enough to immunize they'd ALL be protected anyways.

Deities can reproduce, and were often raised from mortal races. ... Or did I misread you there?

[ace rooster]

Yeah, gate needs a lot of DM hand holding. It is one of the funnier consequences of gate loop abuse that most players neglect; that their wizard is also vulnerable to gate, and they are pissing off a race with free access to gate. :smallsigh:

Personally, I break up the calling effect of gate into an even greater planar binding*, and a summoning variant that allows long duration summon monster 9 for an xp cost. The only reason for commanding immediate service being a thing is when you are in a hurry and don't have time for negotiations. In this case a summoning seems more appropriate, or the 'calling' of an outsider where the terms have already been agreed (in which case you do not need the forced service). 'Calling' an outsider without a prior agreement is possible, but they are not forced into service. You simply open a standard gate to their location and yell for help, and they will react however they deem appropriate. You could open a gate to a powerful mortal as well to do the same thing.

I run that the planar powers are generally aware of direct planar intervention on the material, and none want an escalation. It is very expensive to the power of the plane to affect or percieve the material, so if the intervention of a competing plane can be dealt with by indirectly assisting the natives of the material plane against it, it is a net win. If a large planar war broke out on the material, the planes that did not participate would be net winners, unless there was a clear victor.

*I also house rule callings somewhat, in that they are treated the same way as getting the assistance of any other NPC (with the same lack of guarentees). It is complicated by planar politics, and the 'cost' of intervention on the material, but is mostly still abstracted into a charisma check. Importantly, calling a planar creature costs the plane they come from, so calling abuse is one of the few situations where the planes will not hesitate to intervene directly. If the plane is adequately compensated (gold can be made into power) they will generally not have a problem with it though.

It may seem like fluff, but calling is all about the fluff. You are literally asking an NPC for help, so you need to know how NPCs will act. To understand that you need to know what their motivations are, and what helps or hinders them. You need the whole world fleshed out to a rough extent.

[Name1]

So... if you have a BBEG, casting Gate on him let's you control him... And since it takes far less than 1 round per CL for him to commit suicide, you can end the entire campaign there...

That's... really bull****. Like, surprisingly so, even for 3.5.
I suppose any high-level character should fuse with a Helmed Horror to make himself immune against it (and drop said resistance when using a gate himself), 'cause if he doesn't he's doomed.

Any reason gods or unique creatures aren't affected though? Or is that just the usual "divine BS" fiat?

[Âmesang]

Doesn't the calling function of gate only work on extraplanar creatures? :smalltongue: I could have sworn there was a spell/feat/class feature/something that prevented you from being considered "extraplanar."

[Psyren]

I'd say "unique" in this context simply means "specific individual." You can ring up a Pit Fiend for instance, but you can't call the Pit Fiend you know to be the BBEG's lieutenant and force him to automatically spill the beans of the bad guy's plot. (You can try binding him instead, if you know his True Name or whatnot, but even if you succeed at getting that information - a quest in itself - there are plenty of clauses there to force you to roleplay and deal with potential deception etc.)

This makes Gate a great tool if you don't particularly care which member of {race} you get, you're more after what they can do than what they specifically might know. It makes it a lousy tool if you need an individual.


So... if you have a BBEG, casting Gate on him let's you control him... And since it takes far less than 1 round per CL for him to commit suicide, you can end the entire campaign there...

-

Any reason gods or unique creatures aren't affected though? Or is that just the usual "divine BS" fiat?

You pretty much answered your own question; if you could Gate in specific individuals, it doesn't take long until the campaign world implodes. Moreover, it makes things too easy for the bad guys too. Imagine if all the cult needed to bring their dark god's avatar to this world was an 8.4k candle; worse, their CL doesn't even matter since they have no intention of controlling said avatar anyway. A cult of Garagos, Rovagug, or Azathoth doesn't care if their god's avatar runs amok or even if they themselves are the first to get eaten.

[ace rooster]

So... if you have a BBEG, casting Gate on him let's you control him... And since it takes far less than 1 round per CL for him to commit suicide, you can end the entire campaign there...

That's... really bull****. Like, surprisingly so, even for 3.5.
I suppose any high-level character should fuse with a Helmed Horror to make himself immune against it (and drop said resistance when using a gate himself), 'cause if he doesn't he's doomed.

Any reason gods or unique creatures aren't affected though? Or is that just the usual "divine BS" fiat?

pretty much. The DM can just say no though to doing it to the BBEG, as they can invent something on the fly that make them unique. The spell would just fail, so they don't even need to think of what it is.

Mechanically, gods and unique creatures are not affected to avoid precisesly what you describe.

Fluff wise, there is no fluff. They just made a fluff dependent spell, without the fluff. It works about as well as could be expected. :smallsigh:


The target has to be extraplanar, which means it does not work from the material plane. Works just fine if you cast it somewhere else though, as they didn't give the material plane any special properties. To much fluff for them.

[Necroticplague]

pretty much. The DM can just say no though to doing it to the BBEG, as they can invent something on the fly that make them unique. The spell would just fail, so they don't even need to think of what it is.

Under the normal definition of unique, you barely even need to make up anything. The fact you have a specific enough set of traits to call them out specifically, means they're unique. Of course, following the logical train of thought from that, all creatures are unique, so you actually can't unwillingly gate someone in.

[Flickerdart]

I've always played it as such: anything in the Monster Manual is not unique. If you cast gate and dial 1-800-SOLARS, you get the Solar from the Monster Manual section on Angels. If you want a weird Solar (one with a tentacle graft, or flame strike prepared, or is named Hank) that is a unique being if it exists at all.

Any creature described as one of a kind (gods, Tarrasque, elder evils, named NPCs) is also considered unique.

[Beheld]

1) Yeah, Unique Being is pretty clearly different from George The Fighter who is a Particular being. For example the Tarrasque and the Adamantium Hooked Horror are explicitly called out as having only one.

2) No doubt someone will come along and claim that unique being means literally anything at all, and you can never use Gate to gate a particular being, because if you could, that would be broken. This argument is... flawed. The reason the BBEG is supposed to be immune to gate is because he's on the Prime Material Plane, and the designers did not fully consider 3)


Doesn't the calling function of gate only work on extraplanar creatures? :smalltongue: I could have sworn there was a spell/feat/class feature/something that prevented you from being considered "extraplanar."

3) Extraplanar is weird. Technically, when you are on the Prime Material Plane, you don't have the Extraplanar type, but technically all those things you Gate, they don't have the extraplanar type either when they are on their home plane:


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane).

So either you can only use Gate to gate elementals from the Prime Material Plane (or another variant plane) but you can't gate them from the elemental plane of air, or alternatively, you can gate them from the Air to the Prime because they would have the Extraplanar type on the Prime, which of course, means you can just planeshift to any other plane in the universe and then Gate the BBEG from there.

4) My personal houserule besides "9th level spells is garbo land" and "no of course you can't buy an item that casts 9th level spells at level 3" is called "The Prime is Cancun" where no one on the Prime can be gated from anywhere, which is why Demons and Devils are always so gung ho to get to the Prime in the first place, and it gives a clear simple protection for anyone at that level.

[Âmesang]

I suppose my custom infernal wouldn't qualify since I switched around its feats and bumped its Intelligence by two to give it extra skill points (why they gave it Epic Weapon Focus [bite] and Epic Weapon Focus [claw] instead of Epic Prowess ×2 is beyond me; it doesn't even qualify for Epic Weapon Focus [bite]!).

Alternatively I suppose I could put my hordling generator to use and call an advanced version.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The "unique beings" isn't a game term. It's plain english that must be parsed as such by the DM. The long and short of it is that -no- answer we give here is more or less valid than the one your DM decides to go with.

He could go as absurdly far in one direction as "literally anything that is non-standard for its kind" or as far in the other as "a being that is the only one of his kind in existence (the dukes of hell and the demon princes come to mind)."

Personally, I strike a point in the middle with it being "creatures with class levels can't be called," but that -is- unambiguously my own interpretation of the phase. Note; interpretation, not houserule. Houserules are -changes- to the rules as written. Interpretations of RAW are just that, interpretation; as long as the rules text doesn't have to be changed to match the way the DM rules it.

[Zanos]

I run it as unique beings are things that are either specifically stated to be as such, such as the adamantine horror or gods, and creatures that don't have a stat block printed.

So you can gate in a generic solar.
You can gate in Joe the generic solar you played cards with in Sigil. He is a particular but non-unique being.
If you try to call up Joe's buddy, Bob, who has a level in Fighter, it fails. Bob is not a generic example of his race and is now a unique being.
Anything entirely defined by it's class levels is right out.

[Emperor Tippy]

The following are my general house rules / interpretations for Gate.

1) Gate can only be used to create a Gate to another Plane, so you can't gate in a creature that is on the same Plane as you.

2) Gate can only connect to a Plane at the discretion of its recognized ruler. For "public" planes, even those with rulers (such as the various layers of the Abyss or the 9 Hell's), this discretion only applies to an area up to the rulers HD in miles but this area can be split up in smaller chunks at the Rulers discretion (and they can change it as a free action that can be taken at any time). This generally covers their personal palace, their immediate presence, and what few other locations they consider of extreme import. For "private" planes, the recognized ruler has full discretion over the entirety of the plane. What this means is that an individual on their own personal demiplane (or counted as on it via Planar Bubble or the like) can't be Gated unless they allow it.

3) Gate can not connect to any location where Gate would be impossible to cast. This means a Plane with the relevant Limited Magic trait (and any residents of it) would be immune to gate, and if Impeded Magic was in play then the Spellcraft check needs to be made. Similarly, you can't create a Gate into a Dead Magic area.

4) Gate can not connect to any location covered by an active Weirdstone, and thus any creature within such an area can't be called.

5) A creature is Unique if it is the only one of its kind in the Great Wheel. Basically, if the Race line on the character sheet is something that only exists on the race line of a single entities character sheet in the entire Great Wheel then the creature counts as Unique, otherwise it doesn't. So yes, killing off every single other member of your entire species is a valid way to become immune to Gate.

---
There also exist magic items and custom spells that render an individual or location immune to Gate, but these are all 8th or 9th level equivalents given that they are trying to block a 9th level spell.

[Psyren]

I run it as unique beings are things that are either specifically stated to be as such, such as the adamantine horror or gods, and creatures that don't have a stat block printed.

So you can gate in a generic solar.
You can gate in Joe the generic solar you played cards with in Sigil. He is a particular but non-unique being.
If you try to call up Joe's buddy, Bob, who has a level in Fighter, it fails. Bob is not a generic example of his race and is now a unique being.
Anything entirely defined by it's class levels is right out.

To clarify my earlier ruling, it's closer to Zanos' above - I would say that you actually can Gate in Joe the Solar you played cards with too. But he would be under no obligation to step through as he is a specific individual, and even if he does, he is not automatically under your control and can thus refuse requests. Only a generic one would be compelled to enter/obey (i.e. you can't specify which member of the race you get), and there may be ramifications for exercising that.

And of course I'd also use the PF version that halves the HD you can call to be = level instead of twice level.

[lord_khaine]

I always add that if you dont have a name, you cant be called either, as a homage to my favorite rpg :smalltongue:

[DarkSoul]

I only have two categories of creatures for gate: unique and not. Joe the solar you played cards with in Sigil is unique; there's only one solar in the multiverse that meets that criteria. Any other solar is not, and uses the stats from the MM. Same goes for George the Fighter.

[Psyren]

I only have two categories of creatures for gate: unique and not. Joe the solar you played cards with in Sigil is unique; there's only one solar in the multiverse that meets that criteria. Any other solar is not, and uses the stats from the MM. Same goes for George the Fighter.

Yep.

Note however that nothing stops you from trying to Gate in Joe. He may even agree to step through.

[Khedrac]

The other twist I would add is that gating in a random solar might just get Joe, since he is the nearest available solar...
(With this it's not so much that he cannot resist as he has not been selected, it is that he didn't resist, if he had a different solar would have arrived.)

[Gemini476]

The weird thing is that "unique creature" is a rules term, but it's an AD&D rules term. It basically just means anything that has "unique" in its frequency rating, as opposed to "common" or "rare" or whatever. There's only one of them, and though there may be more in alternate primes (hello, plane of shadow/spelljammer/manual of the planes alternate prime material planes) those don't count. That one spelljammer planet may have a whole herd of tarrasques, and the Faerûn/Oerth versions of Asmodeus might be different beings, but they still count as unique.

Although it's also a bit of a common sense thing at times, because AD&D and consistency aren't on speaking terms all of the time.

The Tarrasque is unique, Asmodeus is unique, most of the Powers out there are unique, but Bob the level 20 Fighter isn't unique because he is fundamentally human and there's a lot of those.


I mean, Gate has calling specific individuals as a standard function. Explicitly. If you want to specifically call Bob the Balor rather than accidentally calling up Rob the Balor, you can do so. It's just that if you decide to call Demogorgon the Demon Prince you can't control him. (I don't remember, does 3E have the devil/demon-controlling amulet thingies that were in older editions?)

[Telok]

I just house ruled out the control function. Solved all my problems with it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The weird thing is that "unique creature" is a rules term, but it's an AD&D rules term.

Different edition, different rules. This may or may not be what was intended but it doesn't matter. Without 3e rules text to clarify the meaning of "unique creature" in this context, it reverts to a plain English definition. You are, of course, free to houserule that old-school definition into the game if you like but it -is- a houserule.

[Name1]

Ok, so I know that it's been weeks now, but I just realized something: In the DMGII, there is a mention of Great Wyrm Dragons and all Epic Monsters being Unique Beings (p.284, The Slavering Source).

Why are these beings considered to be Unique?

[Crake]

Doesn't the calling function of gate only work on extraplanar creatures? :smalltongue: I could have sworn there was a spell/feat/class feature/something that prevented you from being considered "extraplanar."

The spelltouched feat Naturalized Denizen makes it so you never have the extraplanar subtype, and are thus completely immune to gate. It simply requires you to be exposed to dimensional anchor at some point.

[Psyren]

The spelltouched feat Naturalized Denizen makes it so you never have the extraplanar subtype, and are thus completely immune to gate. It simply requires you to be exposed to dimensional anchor at some point.

Note however that these feats are explicitly a variant rule.


Ok, so I know that it's been weeks now, but I just realized something: In the DMGII, there is a mention of Great Wyrm Dragons and all Epic Monsters being Unique Beings (p.284, The Slavering Source).

Why are these beings considered to be Unique?

Going by the context, "unique" there simply meant "this is a monster that the whole campaign could revolve around stopping/dealing with." In other words, "not a run of the mill antagonist." It doesn't seem to be a rules definition because the whole section is talking about guidelines and suggestions.

The line you're reading comes from the "Destroying Artifacts" subsection of the "Artifacts In Your Campaign," GM advice section, which states:

"You should tailor the methods of destroying an artifact to both its nature and your campaign. As a general rule, a quest to destroy an artifact should involve the PCs visiting several legendary locations in the campaign world, and possibly coming into conflict with some of the campaign's legendary monsters as well. The Epic Level Handbook offers many excellent monster choices, but if you don't have that book, you can generate legendary monsters by advancing already tough ones in Hit Dice or size, or by adding 20 levels in a character class. A party won't soon forget a fight with a 40-foot-tall, 36 HD Marilith! And if all else fails, the handy tarrasque makes a legendary monster as well. Some sample methods for destroying artifacts are described below to help spark your imagination."

The specific line you read is from one such sample method, "The Slavering Source":

"The body parts or blood of some legendary monster was used in the artifact's creation. The monster should be a unique, ageless being (such as a great wyrm dragon, an epic monster, or the tarrasque) that lives in a remote location."

The "such as" makes this inclusive rather than exclusive - in other words, these are considered "legendary" but other beings could be as well.