Werewolf and will I have to power game question.

[frost890]

It takes me a moment to get to my question but... we recently started a werewolf game and it seems that when I try and work with the spirit world I come off as just expecting things to my go my way. I have tried to barter and trade but it seems that I am getting nowhere. So far we have stayed out of combat by the skin of our teeth but we have come across a vampire that drank a rank 3 vampire and are now being sent to find a makole that lives in the umbra. So my question is this. Since I do not see my character being able to get any spirit help, I was hoping for some suggestions from players with more WOD experience. The only thing I have done so far is get a shotgun.

[Sith_Happens]

Apocalypse or Forsaken? Calling it the "umbra" implies Apocalypse but it'd be nice to know for sure.

[Anonymouswizard]

Apocalypse or Forsaken? Calling it the "umbra" implies Apocalypse but it'd be nice to know for sure.

Namedropping the Moloke (spelling?) also implies that it's Apocalypse.

To answer the 'is power gaming required' question, maybe. World of Darkness isn't like Fate where it's nearly impossible to power game (I mean you can still optimise, and creative use of Stunts and Extras can allow power gaming, but it's hard), but it's not a game where it's strictly necessary. It can also be dangerously easy to power game if you know what you're doing.

First, unless you're a Glass Walker or Bone Gnawer you probably aren't using a gun (probably not for the Bone Gnawers either). This is a mixture of not being particularly fond of technology (I've previously played in a game where I was the only one with a phone, although I was also the only one who knew anything about the setting*) and melee weapons benefitting more from Crinos form strength. The Glass Walkers do have a good number of fetish firearms, and likely do use a good number of mundane firearms both to blend in and because a rifle is just useful.

With regards to combat, a high Rage character, such as an Ahroun, is useful for the extra actions (and Rage is easy to regain), although problematic if you're going to be hanging around human civilisation. Fetish weapons are also useful for the extra powers (or occasionally extra damage). I think the problem may be that you're going against foes a bit above your power level, but I can't be sure (this is one of the WoD games I'm the least competent on).

The spirit world is interesting. It'll probably be easier when you increase in Rank, but like any bargaining system it'll be highly GM dependent.

* That game partially fell apart because I got annoyed with one of the other players not taking any part of it seriously, whereas the last game I had played was in a group where everyone grew invested in the story and the setting and what would normally be silly was serious.

[SaurOps]

It takes me a moment to get to my question but... we recently started a werewolf game and it seems that when I try and work with the spirit world I come off as just expecting things to my go my way. I have tried to barter and trade but it seems that I am getting nowhere.

That would depend on the spirit in question. A given type of spirit will share certain quirks that make this business easier, such as by having forbidden or pleasing actions or objects to present or threaten. Otherwise, you have to offer juice (i.e. temporary Gnosis points; some sticklers will go for permanent).



So far we have stayed out of combat by the skin of our teeth but we have come across a vampire that drank a rank 3 vampire

Are you using a homebrew system for vampires? They normally go by generation, if you're using V:tM.



and are now being sent to find a makole that lives in the umbra. So my question is this. Since I do not see my character being able to get any spirit help, I was hoping for some suggestions from players with more WOD experience.

Roll your character's Intelligence + Occult/Spirit Lore (assuming that your characters has one of said Knowledges) to get the ST to drop you hints about what any given spirit it is, what it likes and what it dislikes. If your ST gives you a hard time about this, they aren't operating in the (puts on sunglasses) spirit of the game.



The only thing I have done so far is get a shotgun.

How and why? You have Crinos form. It is generally far more effective than a shotgun, especially since you can't bring material things over into the umbra unless they're dedicated.

[JeenLeen]

I have tried to barter and trade but it seems that I am getting nowhere.
I recommend asking your GM, out-of-character and in a non-confrontational way, how to get spirit allies or bargain for new Gifts. From advice I've seen elsewhere, mainly don't make it sound like you are criticizing the DM.



So far we have stayed out of combat by the skin of our teeth but we have come across a vampire that drank a rank 3 vampire and are now being sent to find a makole that lives in the umbra.
That sounds troubling. Unless that vampire is some big-bad you are supposed to go on an epic campaign against, or some background event, well, that's troubling. (Does rank 3 mean Generation 3? That's how I read it, but those guys are basically demigods.)

Assuming your DM is decent, you probably were not supposed to confront the vampire at all but just be made of its awareness. (If it confronted you, were supposed to flee.) I'd hope that things improve after you meet the makole. If I remember correctly, they are loremasters amongst other things, so I would hope they send you on a quest with more reasonable enemies. (Though don't assume it's friendly. Pretty much all non-garou shifters don't trust the garou that much.)

[awa]

generation 3 vampires literally have plot device as one of their powers no amount of optimization beats plot device.

[JeenLeen]

generation 3 vampires literally have plot device as one of their powers no amount of optimization beats plot device.
Well, if a high-gen vamp somehow diablerized a Gen 3, they wouldn't necessarily become Gen 3. ...I reckon it's probably be up to the Gen 3, since the Tremere-Saulot action shows that diablerizing one doesn't really get rid of it.
And I'm hoping rank 3 didn't actually mean Gen 3.

[frost890]

Sorry about the delay in getting back with you. Yes on both the 3rd generation and for it being Apocalypse. I went and got the gun to get a distance weapon.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sorry about the delay in getting back with you. Yes on both the 3rd generation and for it being Apocalypse. I went and got the gun to get a distance weapon.

In general bows are better when combined with Crinos, although rifles have a few advantages. In some locations they can be useful as part of a disguise, but in general guns are inferior to shifting to Crinos and ragemurdering everything.

There's a difference between what seems useful and what isn't. An example below, as it's off topic.
My friend is likely going to be running a PL8 M&M game, and I thought that someone who could steal other people's powers would be useful. However, due to how the modifiers added up, I basically wouldn't have had any points for mundane skills or defences.

Instead I'm generating a bunch of guys I can theoretically use, one who disintegrates anything he touches with his fingertips (Damage 10 effect, close range, penetrating), with possibly healing as a reversed form of the power; a limited telekinetic (can only do metal); and a 'metalhead', someone who's intuitively good with machines (although I was banned from playing a combat inventor). I also wanted someone who could move at either normal running speeds or some multiple of c, but that's on the 'maybe' list as the GM is a physicist.

In short, just because it seems like a good option, it doesn't mean it is. If you have Glass Walker ties you might be able to occasionally access heavy firepower that's worth it (either mundane or fetish), they have access to basically any personal-scale weapon you could need, but a mundane shotgun is the definition of redundant as a Crinos form werewolf can almost certainly close the effective range in a round (maybe 2).

We might be able to give better advice if we knew your Breed, Auspice, and Tribe.

[RickAllison]

I really can't figure out why anyone would want to take a shotgun into battle in Werewolf (I've only done nWoD, keep in mind). Other than getting some more variety in attacks, I found it was far more useful to just take an AR-15 or similar and just have an underslung Masterkey or similar. Then, I get the range of the wonderful rifle while I can use the shotgun when close enough that they can get in melee anyway for incendiary ammo (only worth it against vampires, but very useful there) or shot/flechette ammo when the target is unarmored.

If you do go the shotgun route, might be worth it to see if any of the oWoD books have sojutsu (spear-fighting) which you can apply to bayonet-fighting (jukendo). They have it in nWoD and it is rather handy as in that form it basically lets you preemptively attack those who try to close to melee.

[comicshorse]

In general bows are better when combined with Crinos, although rifles have a few advantages. In some locations they can be useful as part of a disguise, but in general guns are inferior to shifting to Crinos and ragemurdering everything.


The only thing I found guns useful for in Werewolf was an intimidator to get people to back off or do what you want. Say what you will but a pistol in the face works far better than telling them 'Hey I can turn into a huge, murderous supernatural deathmachine' :smallsmile:

[Friv]

Sorry about the delay in getting back with you. Yes on both the 3rd generation and for it being Apocalypse. I went and got the gun to get a distance weapon.

Look, if there's a 3rd Generation vampire around... just don't tailor anything with him in mind. There's nothing you can do, now or ever, to stop that thing, barring getting hold of plot shenanigans, and plot shenanigans won't depend on your stats and gifts.

As a general rule, guns aren't very good for werewolves - too many supernatural things shrug off bullets, and in most situations you're better off turning into a wolf, running very fast at your opponent, and then turning into a death monster and clawing their face off.

[comicshorse]

Look, if there's a 3rd Generation vampire around... just don't tailor anything with him in mind. There's nothing you can do, now or ever, to stop that thing, barring getting hold of plot shenanigans, and plot shenanigans won't depend on your stats and gifts.



I'd guess that's what the Mokole they're looking for is for. Mokole having an affinity for Spirits of the Sun and sunlight being one of the few things that really messes up even High Gen Vampires

[Anonymouswizard]

Look, if there's a 3rd Generation vampire around... just don't tailor anything with him in mind. There's nothing you can do, now or ever, to stop that thing, barring getting hold of plot shenanigans, and plot shenanigans won't depend on your stats and gifts.

As a general rule, guns aren't very good for werewolves - too many supernatural things shrug off bullets, and in most situations you're better off turning into a wolf, running very fast at your opponent, and then turning into a death monster and clawing their face off.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a 4th Gen, but even then we're probably talking about 10ish soak dice at minimum.

A low generation vampire can take an enraged Crinos Garou and win (even if the Garou pushs his Homid Strength to 6+). With a gun you'd be getting about 4-6 damage dice, compared to the 6-12 you could get from going Crinos. There are a handful of ways to deal with a low generation vampire, a bunch of Elders could possibly gang up on one and take them down, depending on the vampire's Celerity, or else lots of explosives or dumping them in the middle of the Sahara with no clothes chained to a slab of steel. Otherwise staying away from it is the key, kindred (either Masquerade or Requiem) have very little to do with other worlds, and staying in the Umbra should be your best chance of staying safe from it (although that presents it's own dangers).

[Friv]

I'd guess that's what the Mokole they're looking for is for. Mokole having an affinity for Spirits of the Sun and sunlight being one of the few things that really messes up even High Gen Vampires

That would make sense! I never read the Mokole book, so I'm pretty vague on their abilities.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a 4th Gen, but even then we're probably talking about 10ish soak dice at minimum.

A low generation vampire can take an enraged Crinos Garou and win (even if the Garou pushs his Homid Strength to 6+). With a gun you'd be getting about 4-6 damage dice, compared to the 6-12 you could get from going Crinos. There are a handful of ways to deal with a low generation vampire, a bunch of Elders could possibly gang up on one and take them down, depending on the vampire's Celerity, or else lots of explosives or dumping them in the middle of the Sahara with no clothes chained to a slab of steel. Otherwise staying away from it is the key, kindred (either Masquerade or Requiem) have very little to do with other worlds, and staying in the Umbra should be your best chance of staying safe from it (although that presents it's own dangers).

The problem is that a 4th Generation isn't just a "low-generation" vampire. Their soak doesn't matter, because a direct conflict won't reach that point. If they're "only" 4th generation, you're looking at one or more tricks such as:

Using Animalism to deliver unblockable aggravated damage to a target by having their own Rage tear them apart.
Using Animalism to sink into a region, becoming untouchable and controlling all of its plant and animal life.
Using Auspex to see the future, countering plans designed to confront you before they happen.
Using Auspex to fully interact astrally with the world while sleeping.
Using Celerity to make a physical attack that adds nine automatic successes to the attack and damage roll, and then using it normally to make another nine attacks that round.
Using Dominate to control anyone they've met from any distance without knowing exactly where they are.
Hanging Dominate effects on their minions so that people who run into the vampire's servants can be mind controlled.
Using Obfuscate to transform into a perfect representation of a trusted friend, making the player unable to fight them.
Using Obfuscate to totally conceal themselves from all physical and supernatural senses, while still being able to interact with and fight the werewolves.
Using Potence to make full-force lethal damage attacks at a range of "perception", with huge bonus damage.
Using Presence to create an irresistible aura that makes everyone who sees the vampire totally in awe and loyal to them for the duration of the effect.
Using Presence to make an entire city loyal to their ideals and dreams.


And that's without looking at clan-specific disciplines or sorcery, which are going to be that level or stronger.

It's just not feasible for anyone at a PC level to oppose that sort of thing without, as I said, shenanigans.

[SaurOps]

That would make sense! I never read the Mokole book, so I'm pretty vague on their abilities.


For one thing, they get to custom-design their war form from a list of reptilian features, which they get their Gnosis in. While being huge used to come with some down to earth limits, per W20 Changing Breeds it's possible to be so tall that you can bitch slap the tops off of the highest buildings in Dubai. The rules, however, have no caught up with this, and remain caught in under-powered, weird places, as being really tall gives you a bonus to Perception for seeing over objects rather than any number of more sensible benefits. Personally, I'd place it as being able to apply whole Strength to demolition rolls, per the rules in Creedbook Avenger. I SWUNG MY THAGOMIZER LIKE A WRECKING BALL!

Other features include being able to stack armor as many times as you can afford to, so it's technically possible to be nigh-invulnerable instead of huge (each purchase gives two extra dice to soak). Area-effect fire breath is also a choice, once daily use per purchase.

Their Gifts include:

- being able to create a field of noon-brightness sunlight (relatively low level; just one rank beyond typical starting characters)
- another form of fire breath, which deals automatic levels of aggravated damage, and can be increased by pumping more Rage points after hitting (two levels per point). In its original appearance, it had the heat of a chemical fire, but it might be down to difficulty 6 now. W20 CB left a lot of details out.
- More soak dice. Yes, even more soak dice for a splat that can already have something like a Crinos with like 17 extra dice to soak.
- An equivalent to the Boli Zousizhe Gift that adds Honor Renown to all physical Attributes for the scene, as long as you're defending others from an attack.
- Reflexive dodge!
- Being able to move through rocks and soil, sometimes faster than just running.
- Hit things with the power of the sun
- Turn into a true dragon and become a plot device for a scene.
- Make journeys according to a map of the Mesozoic, e.g. you can walk from somewhere South America to somewhere Africa in a matter of days.
- Spend Rage to increase physical Attributes
- Take away a target's synapomorphies, so that you resemble an earlier, ancestral animal, e.g. turning a human into a basal primate, or even something like a pelycosaur.
- Ignore botches for an entire night.
- Reattach their limbs, even going so far as to have them shoot back onto the Mokole.
- Turn Speed of Thought into a way of duplicating vehicular homicide rules from the HH2

I'll explain the last one on the list. As Mokole can be easily as large or larger than a semi, and can still run very quickly, it's possible for them to deal incredible amounts of damage, albeit usually only lethal, to a target just by side-swiping them while running in Archid. I suppose getting a spinier Mokole would probably upgrade the damage category to aggravated, but that would result in easily-acquired 25+ dice of aggravated damage, with barely any effort necessary to hit, since the (sunglasses) scale is just too great for human-sized foes.

[Anonymouswizard]

The problem is that a 4th Generation isn't just a "low-generation" vampire. Their soak doesn't matter, because a direct conflict won't reach that point. If they're "only" 4th generation, you're looking at one or more tricks such as:

Using Animalism to deliver unblockable aggravated damage to a target by having their own Rage tear them apart.
Using Animalism to sink into a region, becoming untouchable and controlling all of its plant and animal life.
Using Auspex to see the future, countering plans designed to confront you before they happen.
Using Auspex to fully interact astrally with the world while sleeping.
Using Celerity to make a physical attack that adds nine automatic successes to the attack and damage roll, and then using it normally to make another nine attacks that round.
Using Dominate to control anyone they've met from any distance without knowing exactly where they are.
Hanging Dominate effects on their minions so that people who run into the vampire's servants can be mind controlled.
Using Obfuscate to transform into a perfect representation of a trusted friend, making the player unable to fight them.
Using Obfuscate to totally conceal themselves from all physical and supernatural senses, while still being able to interact with and fight the werewolves.
Using Potence to make full-force lethal damage attacks at a range of "perception", with huge bonus damage.
Using Presence to create an irresistible aura that makes everyone who sees the vampire totally in awe and loyal to them for the duration of the effect.
Using Presence to make an entire city loyal to their ideals and dreams.


And that's without looking at clan-specific disciplines or sorcery, which are going to be that level or stronger.

It's just not feasible for anyone at a PC level to oppose that sort of thing without, as I said, shenanigans.

I'm going to mention something I've realised: we could both be wrong. They could be using the recommended apocalypse rules for running Vampires (like the Vampire rules for 'lupines' giving them 2-6 extra actions every turn for free). This means that Vampires may have any number of capabilities, and we have no idea, all we know is 'really powerful', in which case the only feasible method would be to either blow a hole through the crust or locate a small planet to bludgeon him with, but if you have some orbital mirrors you can use concentrated sunlight. I do agree that this is probably what the Moloke is for, but it does seem like a bad thing for a starting adventure as the opposition could easily kill them.