Would this fly at your table?

[thethird]

Page 165 of the DMG describes an encounter in the beastlands, the white stag. Treated as a celestial charger, it's antlers can be made to make a masterwork bow that is 10% cheaper to enchant.

Page 133 of Complete Champion lists unicorn horn as a 190 gp spell component.

Since the bow can be crafted from the white stag antlers it should cost 3x190 gp 570 gp. Perhaps it has the cost for a bow on top 100 gp. Still 670 gp for a 10% discount on enchantments is a steal.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sure it's a steal, because you can just pick one up any any magic item shop, no problem.

I think the real issue is that you need to enter the beastlands to hunt the stag, and it says that any creatures native to the beastlands won't hunt the stag, but will turn on the hunters with unbridled ferocity. So you pretty much have to fight every living thing you encounter to bring back the antlers.

[weckar]

Can you explain to me the logic of equating antlers to unicorn horn? I think I missed your leaps there.

[Deophaun]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]I think the real issue is that you need to enter the beastlands to hunt the stag, and it says that any creatures native to the beastlands won't hunt the stag, but will turn on the hunters with unbridled ferocity. So you pretty much have to fight every living thing you encounter to bring back the antlers.
You don't need to hunt the stag at all, because stags shed antlers and there's no requirement for the horns to be violently removed from a stag's head to make the bow. Sure, hunting is definitely the most direct and straight-forward method, but if you're patient and knowledgeable about the plane and its cycles, harvesting antlers can be done safely.

[AMX]

Can you explain to me the logic of equating antlers to unicorn horn? I think I missed your leaps there.

The white stag is "treated as a celestial charger" - and a celestial charger is an advanced unicorn.

Therefore the antlers have to be equivalent to the horn.

[Hopeless]

I think this would depend on how your players would react to someone on their table agreeing to go hunt a Unicorn or that Great Stag when both seem to be held in great regard such as any Druids in the vicinity will very likely pass on those character's identities to anyone they have contact with so ignore anyone in their vicinity try anyone who survives to pass on what they did and increase the range accordingly.

Unicorns, as in the creature Jim Darkmagic rides on or the traditional version and not the nasty variant that loves to kill on sight?

Not sure how people would react to those!

[BowStreetRunner]

You don't need to hunt the stag at all, because stags shed antlers and there's no requirement for the horns to be violently removed from a stag's head to make the bow. Sure, hunting is definitely the most direct and straight-forward method, but if you're patient and knowledgeable about the plane and its cycles, harvesting antlers can be done safely.

We're talking about an outer plane though. "The Beastlands consists of three layers, each layer frozen at part of the day. The top layer is a place of eternal daylight, its second layer a domain of perpetual twilight, and its third layer a land of night illuminated only by a pale moon." (Manual of the Planes, page 141) There aren't actually any seasons there. The creatures there don't follow the same sort of natural rules present in their mortal counterparts.

[Deophaun]

We're talking about an outer plane though. "The Beastlands consists of three layers, each layer frozen at part of the day. The top layer is a place of eternal daylight, its second layer a domain of perpetual twilight, and its third layer a land of night illuminated only by a pale moon." (Manual of the Planes, page 141) There aren't actually any seasons there. The creatures there don't follow the same sort of natural rules present in their mortal counterparts.
Unless stated otherwise, the game says the world acts like ours. So, if stags shed antlers in our world, they will shed antlers in game unless something says otherwise.

And it's a good thing I talked about cycles, not seasons. Otherwise, that might be an issue. And if stags don't shed their antlers, then hunting them became a lot easier, as the old ones are probably pinned under their massive growths: they'll thank you for freeing them from their boney prisons.

[D.M.Hentchel]

Definately wouldn't let you just buy White Stag Horns based on the cost of a unicorn horn they are distinctively different items. Still, I would let you travel to the plane and hunt it. Or even just cut the horns off it and regrow them. Or even harvest shed horns (however presumably this is something that the residents regualarly do). Alternitively you could aquire it from another who uses such a bow.

[OldTrees1]

1) No, a White Stag has Antlers not a Unicorn Horn. Mechanically it uses the same stat block, but it is a different creature (White Stag bows instead of Unicorn Horn material components). That would not fly at my table.

2) No, I don't see how 3 times the cost of the material component equates to the market price resulting from using enough to make a bow. I would need good reason to accept that claim.



3) Yes, I would allow White Stag antlers to be made into a bow with the mentioned effect. However there would not be a market price.

[dascarletm]

Yeah, seems like an adequate reward for going through the trouble of traveling to beastlands and finding one and hunting/waiting for it to shed/whatever method makes the party druid happy.

Oh, at that price... Probably not. As others have said, I don't agree with the logic obtaining that cost. Also it functions better as a story/quest reward.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I agree that waiting for natural shedding is the best option. Alternatively, you can use Diplomacy on the stag, offering a regenerate spell, plus compensation in cash or items, in return for the antlers.

I really don't see how the price of a unicorn horn would carry over to the antlers, though. I wouldn't allow it.

[Necroticplague]

No, it wouldn't fly, because I don't see that as following the rules. A stag's antlers are not a unicorn's horn.

Whenever my players want something based on a creature or a creature ability, I have them pay for the cost of having such a creature serving you, as per the Lords of Madness slavery rules (i.e, I assume mechanical equivalence to buying the creature, then just having it do whatever). In this case, that'd be 13*13*100=16900 GP. Thus, only really worth it if you're make a whopping +10 weapon or more (of having it grant an enhancement bonus of +6 or more).

[BowStreetRunner]

Unless stated otherwise, the game says the world acts like ours. So, if stags shed antlers in our world, they will shed antlers in game unless something says otherwise.

And it's a good thing I talked about cycles, not seasons. Otherwise, that might be an issue. And if stags don't shed their antlers, then hunting them became a lot easier, as the old ones are probably pinned under their massive growths: they'll thank you for freeing them from their boney prisons.

Outsiders are spirit creatures (body and soul form one unit) that don't eat or sleep. I think that assuming they experience the same cycles as mortal beings is a bit presumptuous.

As for your assertion that the game world acts like ours unless stated otherwise, please be so kind as to show me how Outsiders work in our world. These aren't animals we are talking about, they just look like animals. So if stags shed antlers in our world, outsiders that look like stags may very well not shed antlers.

[thethird]

Sure it's a steal, because you can just pick one up any any magic item shop, no problem.

You mean you don't use wanderer's diplomacy?


You don't need to hunt the stag at all, because stags shed antlers and there's no requirement for the horns to be violently removed from a stag's head to make the bow. Sure, hunting is definitely the most direct and straight-forward method, but if you're patient and knowledgeable about the plane and its cycles, harvesting antlers can be done safely.

Actually the item is quite explicit, the antler's (the horn) comes from a stag (celestial charger) that died of natural causes.


2) No, I don't see how 3 times the cost of the material component equates to the market price resulting from using enough to make a bow. I would need good reason to accept that claim.

Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm): Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.

Antlers (horn), coming from a stag (celestial charger) that died of natural causes, costs 190 gp and is the raw material to produce the bow.

[Deophaun]

Outsiders are spirit creatures (body and soul form one unit) that don't eat or sleep. I think that assuming they experience the same cycles as mortal beings is a bit presumptuous.
What do Outsiders have to do with Magical Beasts, which is what the stag is?

And before you ask about the real world: ask Scotland, because the Unicorn is their national animal. Also, the DMG talks about the stags having a life cycle.

[BowStreetRunner]

Actually the item is quite explicit, the antler's (the horn) comes from a stag (celestial charger) that died of natural causes.

First of all, the stag is not a celestial charger. It just uses the stats of a celestial charger.

Secondly, where did you read that it comes from one that died of natural causes? The DMG encounter you referenced clearly describes hunting the stag.


What do Outsiders have to do with Magical Beasts, which is what the stag is?

And before you ask about the real world: ask Scotland, because the Unicorn is their national animal. Also, the DMG talks about the stags having a life cycle.

Ah, now I see the source of the confusion. I was treating it as an Outsider because of the plane on which it is found. You are treating it as a Magical Beast because of the entry for Celestial Charger, which I missed that part. So yes, it would be a Magical Beast native to the Beastlands.

But the Scottish Unicorn trumps all my other arguments. I'll cede you that point! (And if anyone wants to argue otherwise I'll put on my kilt with the Urquhart tartan and toss a caber at yer head!)

[thethird]

First of all, the stag is not a celestial charger. It just uses the stats of a celestial charger.

Yes of course it's not a celestial charger. Certainly it uses the stats of a celestial charger, except where described otherwise.


Secondly, where did you read that it comes from one that died of natural causes? The DMG encounter you referenced clearly describes hunting the stag.

CC (Where the price for the horn is listed): If a horn taken from a unicorn that has died of natural causes...

[dascarletm]

Yes of course it's not a celestial charger. Certainly it uses the stats of a celestial charger, except where described otherwise.



CC (Where the price for the horn is listed): If a horn taken from a unicorn that has died of natural causes...

I'd think that extrapolating antler price from horn price is still a bit of a stretch.

[Deophaun]

I'd think that extrapolating antler price from horn price is still a bit of a stretch.

I don't think it's unreasonable; there aren't many monster parts that sell for more. I mean, you can trade in angel essence for 20 gp. I also think archers should be allowed nice things.

[Âmesang]

So what's the Diplomacy DC to convince a White Stag to wear a nipple clamp of exquisite pain? :smallwink:

[dascarletm]

I don't think it's unreasonable; there aren't many monster parts that sell for more. I mean, you can trade in angel essence for 20 gp. I also think archers should be allowed nice things.

I agree with archers getting nice things, but what you get out of said monster part should align with the cost. I'm AFB and don't recall what unicorn horns do, but a 10% enchantment reduction is probably worth more.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Might use that cost for WBL calculations but there's no way I'd let a player just slap that down in Sigil and buy the thing. You want the stag bow, you do the side-quest for the stag bow.

[OldTrees1]

Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm): Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.

Antlers (horn), coming from a stag (celestial charger) that died of natural causes, costs 190 gp and is the raw material to produce the bow.

Ah, so it is presuming the market price for the spell component is the market price for the raw materials for making a bow.

I don't buy it.
1) I would think the unicorn horn spell component is able to fit in a spell component pouch, thus the spell component is not the entire length of the horn.
2) Isn't the spell component a finished product, so its raw material components are 190/3 gp?

However the big no-no for my table would be the whole "White Stag antlers use the stats for Unicorn Horn" BS.

[Deophaun]

I agree with archers getting nice things, but what you get out of said monster part should align with the cost. I'm AFB and don't recall what unicorn horns do, but a 10% enchantment reduction is probably worth more.
Well, it's "worth" 10% of the enchantment cost. At which point, it becomes irrelevant.

If magic weapons were more sanely priced, I'd be less inclined to go with it. But as far as I'm concerned, there's a 100% premium on them already. Knocking 20% off of that, like the hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean, is a good start.

[TheCrowing1432]

Having an equivocal stat block does not mean the materials from the monster are the same.


Yes, the Stag uses the stats of a Celestial Charger, which is an Advanced Unicorn.

But that does not mean they are the same animal nor would they have the same stuff on them.

[thethird]

Ah, so it is presuming the market price for the spell component is the market price for the raw materials for making a bow.

I don't buy it.
1) I would think the unicorn horn spell component is able to fit in a spell component pouch, thus the spell component is not the entire length of the horn.

The size of your spell component pouch is irrelevant to the discussion. Specially since spell component pouches hold costless spell components. The unicorn horn is not costless.


2) Isn't the spell component a finished product, so its raw material components are 190/3 gp?

There doesn't appear to be any treatment of the horn. I assume it is the raw product. But of course if you want to rule that the bow costs 190 gp and is drawable as a free action as a spell component... be my guest.


However the big no-no for my table would be the whole "White Stag antlers use the stats for Unicorn Horn" BS.


Having an equivocal stat block does not mean the materials from the monster are the same.


Yes, the Stag uses the stats of a Celestial Charger, which is an Advanced Unicorn.

But that does not mean they are the same animal nor would they have the same stuff on them.

The DMG is clear. The stag uses the stats for a celestial charger, it's horn attack is the same. The only mechanical difference is that the stag antlers have a 10% discount on enchantment as a bow.

[Troacctid]

Lemmings use the stats of a rat. Does that mean a lemming tail costs the same as a rat tail? (Hint: lemmings don't have tails.)

[Deophaun]

Lemmings use the stats of a rat. Does that mean a lemming tail costs the same as a rat tail? (Hint: lemmings don't have tails.)
They do if you run part of them through a pasta maker.

[thethird]

Lemmings use the stats of a rat. Does that mean a lemming tail costs the same as a rat tail? (Hint: lemmings don't have tails.)

Yes.

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/46/171446-004-C5CB81E5.jpg

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm 99.99% certain that the market price for a unicorn horn is based on its use as a spell component. Antlers can't be used as a spell component, therefore they are not the same item and they don't have the same market value. So what is the price for the antlers? There isn't one. Go hunt the darn stag like you're supposed to!

[Kish]

To answer your question: No, it would not fly at my table. "The stag has the stats of a celestial charger" matters if it enters combat, for the duration of its being in combat. It does not mean, suggest, or even imply anything about the price or function of its body parts, whether it sheds them, or anything at all except what it's like to fight it.

By the same token, if you need an elf's blood, and you fight a human wizard whose stats are copied from a DMG template, and the original template character is an elf, guess how useful that human's blood is to you for whatever you need an elf's blood for.


If you didn't guess "not useful at all," keep guessing until you do.

[OldTrees1]

The size of your spell component pouch is irrelevant to the discussion. Specially since spell component pouches hold costless spell components. The unicorn horn is not costless.

There doesn't appear to be any treatment of the horn. I assume it is the raw product. But of course if you want to rule that the bow costs 190 gp and is drawable as a free action as a spell component... be my guest.

The DMG is clear. The stag uses the stats for a celestial charger, it's horn attack is the same. The only mechanical difference is that the stag antlers have a 10% discount on enchantment as a bow.

We disagree on all 3 of these accounts and the opening post is explicitly asking us for our rulings.

1) Spell component pouched hold spell components & thus are abstracted to also contain more than enough of costless components. Perhaps this verisimilitude is not used at your table, but it is at mine.

2) I see no reason there would not be treatment. Although I would presume it to be the raw product I would not presume it to be enough material for anything near a bow.

3a) Repetition of an unconvincing argument get you nowhere. My table would rule: White Stags do not have a Unicorn Horn.

3b) Even if your argument had grounding, it would result in the White Stag's unicorn horn (treated as a charger remember?) being the 190gp and the White Stag's antlers not being unicorn horn.

[Quertus]

No, that unfounded leap to calculate the price would not fly at my table.

[icefractal]

I don't think it's unreasonable; there aren't many monster parts that sell for more. I mean, you can trade in angel essence for 20 gp. I also think archers should be allowed nice things.So if you think bows should be 10% cheaper, make them 10% cheaper. This isn't "Archers get nice things" this is "Archers get (slightly) nice things, if they all use an obscure material from a specific plane. Also most bows are made of antlers now."

And re: the OP - no, I wouldn't. I mean, I'd allow the antler-bow, but it having the same price as a unicorn horn is pretty tortured logic, and I don't actually want antler bows to be the ubiquitous choice.

[Deophaun]

So if you think bows should be 10% cheaper, make them 10% cheaper. This isn't "Archers get nice things" this is "Archers get (slightly) nice things, if they all use an obscure material from a specific plane. Also most bows are made of antlers now."
Let me guess: you run campaigns where every extradimensional storage space in existence has been replaced by enveloping pits.

[Chronikoce]

I wouldn't allow an item of this sort to be purchased.

It has growing value (more valuable as your ability to invest increases) and I think it works great as a reward for a quest as it can stay with a character for a long time and be improved.

If I had a player who was interested and wanted to go questing to acquire one I'd be perfectly happy to allow that.

But certain items just aren't purchasable at my table (intelligent items also fall into this category, they can quest to create or find one but they can't just make one).

For the sake of argument, if it was purchasable I would disagree with the price you have calculated. The value for the unicorn horn is for use as a spell component which in my opinion is unlikely to require the same amount of material as required for an entire bow.

[Troacctid]

Yes.

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/46/171446-004-C5CB81E5.jpg

Oh please, that barely counts as a tail. It's like a little tiny stub.

[AMX]

To answer your question: No, it would not fly at my table. "The stag has the stats of a celestial charger" matters if it enters combat, for the duration of its being in combat. It does not mean, suggest, or even imply anything about the price or function of its body parts, whether it sheds them, or anything at all except what it's like to fight it.

Ah, but what *exactly* does the DMG say?
"Use the stats of", "treat as... for the purposes of..." or simply "treat as"?

FTR, I wouldn't let it fly, either - but I'm not sure whether that's actually RAW, or if I'd be house-ruling it...

[Kish]

I'm not clear on why it matters. Stupid RAW is just that--stupid. Darkness doesn't create light and drowning won't heal anyone. I don't get why so many people on this forum treat RAW like it means authority, but in any case (and to the apparent distress of the thread-starter, I note) the thread question is would it fly at your table and the answer for most people seem to be "no."

[crunchykoolaid]

Oh please, that barely counts as a tail. It's like a little tiny stub.

And yet it still costs as much as a Rat's Tail. There must be a spectacularly powerful spell using lemming tails if they have such a higher CPI (cost per inch)

[dascarletm]

If you are going by strictly RAW, it still doesn't work. The stag would have a listed price for its horn, but not for its antlers.

[icefractal]

Let me guess: you run campaigns where every extradimensional storage space in existence has been replaced by enveloping pits.If Enveloping Pits were freely available on the market for 5K, then yeah, people would. As a relic, that's not the case, however. I'm not saying nobody would ever sell one - I assume they get stolen/looted sometimes, and there's ex-followers of Kurtulmak - they'd just sell it for something comparable to its real value.