Wishing for power

[Sniccups]

A player brought this up to me:

"Let's say that there have been 5 20th level mages in history. What's to stop each one of them from simply wishing for omnipotence?"

The number 5 comes from our mid-low magic campaign. Also note that "mage" is our term for arcane caster.

[CursedRhubarb]

The greater the wish, the greater the chance something will go wrong.

This would be a very big deterrent. If they are wishing to become basically a god, or more than a god (or basically to be able to cast the wish spell at will with 100% success rate and none of the negative effects) that is a very powerful wish. Likely one of the most powerful one could make. So a mage would know the laws of the spell and these would say that the odds of their wish being granted as they desire it are more than astronomical. A lepper with no limbs has a better chance of killing Tiamat by blinking their eyes, than the Mage getting what they want. They are more likely to transport themselves to the last second before the end of the universe, where everything else has disappeared, leaving them as the last thing in the universe and thus the most powerful thing in it...and then they die from being in space and the universe ends.

Hmm...perhaps that's what there are only 5...

[PeteNutButter]

Could be a cool origin for gods in your world. Or just have it backfire and kill them somehow. That's like the point of wish spell is to have it backfire. You wish for omnipotence, you can't control it, it kills you, etc.

[Ninja_Prawn]

"What's to stop each one of them from simply wishing for omnipotence?"

The fact that that's plainly beyond the scope of the Wish spell?

Seriously, it's right there in the text: "you might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples... The greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. The spell might simply fail..."

Omnipotence is the greatest possible wish, so if anything can 'go wrong' it should be that, most likely by the spell simply failing. Indeed, in the setting I'm most used to (FR), even the gods aren't omnipotent. So it seems vanishingly unlikely that a single Wish would be able to grant that.

Edit: I wonder if I could Wish never to get ninja'd on the Internet... :smallfrown:

[Sniccups]

Thank you for all your explanation.

Just to be clear, the 5 means that there have only ever been 5 arcane casters who made it to 20th level despite several thousand trying.

Also, I have ruled that Wish takes up both spells for the level and cannot be learned until 19th or 20th level, to explain why the Monster Manual lich and archmage do not have it, and also because it is so overpowered, in my opinion. The Player's Handbook entry for it opens with "Wish is the mightiest spell that a mortal can cast."

(Please don't argue over whether this is a good rule.)

[JackPhoenix]

Edit: I wonder if I could Wish never to get ninja'd on the Internet... :smallfrown:

Wish granted. There are no ninjas now, only shadow monks

[gfishfunk]

"Let's say that there have been 5 20th level mages in history. What's to stop each one of them from simply wishing for omnipotence?"

"You are all now omnipotent. You can sire a child with anything."

Done.

[NNescio]

Thank you for all your explanation.

Just to be clear, the 5 means that there have only ever been 5 arcane casters who made it to 20th level despite several thousand trying.

Also, I have ruled that Wish takes up both spells for the level and cannot be learned until 19th or 20th level to explain why the Monster Manual lich and archmage do not have it, and also because it is so overpowered, in my opinion. The Player's Handbook entry for it opens with "Wish is the mightiest spell that a mortal can cast."

(Please don't argue over whether this is a good rule.)

Time to beat the red-headed stepchild that is the Sorcerer even more, I see.


"You are all now omnipotent. You can sire a child with anything."

Done.

So that's where the Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cube came from...

[Joe the Rat]

Wishing for omnipotence and getting turned into a deity (phenomenal cosmic power, dependence on clerics to make things happen in the world) seems justified. Being turned into an Aladdin-style Genie (itty bitty living space) is another outcome. Plus there's a 1 in 3 chance that, blowing up in your face or not, you can never cast wish again. If there's any sort of rivalry between the five, losing your Ace up your sleeve leaves you vulnerable.

All of the Wizards would know this, and probably have a decent chance of knowing what the outcome would be on the attempt to break reality. Now if they all worked together to do an "Epic" wish...


Also, I have ruled that Wish takes up both spells for the level and cannot be learned until 19th or 20th level, to explain why the Monster Manual lich and archmage do not have it, and also because it is so overpowered, in my opinion. The Player's Handbook entry for it opens with "Wish is the mightiest spell that a mortal can cast."

(Please don't argue over whether this is a good rule.)Well...
I'd just say that Wish can only be learned through research or questing. Treating it like is was a 10th level spell (only learnable at 19+) is a fair call. Not making it available at all also works.

[N810]

Congratulations, you are the new god of poverty and misfortune. :nale:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/fortune_5941.jpg

[Maxilian]

Congratulations!, you're a god!, but as a god you cannot mantain your form in the material form, so you will be send to your new "plane" of existance and it will be a giant empty room that you will be able to modify as you desire! (yay!!) but never leave (unless you get some mortal followers to create a vessel and then summon you into it)

[rollingForInit]

There's also the issue of how the gods will react to mortals reaching too far. Looking at Forgotten Realms, When the ancient Netheril archmage cast his 12th level spell to steal the power of a god, he stole the powers of Mystryl, the goddess of magic. All magic ceased to function briefly, the Netheril's floating cities crashed into destruction, Karsus died, and when Mystryl reincarnated to Mystra she rewrote the laws of magic, banning such powerful spells.

How the gods act might of course vary between settings, but I think it's 100% fair to say that godhood simply isn't within the scope of the spell. In Forgotten Realms, it seems extremely likely that Mystra wouldn't allow such a mighty spell to exist. That's like the main reason that there are no spells above level 9 there. In a custom setting, you could just say that nope, that's not possible, the deity of magic denies your casting of it. The Wish simply fails, and the deity, as extra punishment, prevents you from casting it ever again (even from magical items). Be happy, you got away easily; the god could have erased you from existence.

Even if Wish could do it and you managed to word if perfectly ... how would the other gods react? Perhaps some Overgod just demotes the mortal back. Perhaps they destroy the wizard for the arrogance of trying to take such a road to godhood.

Besides, if you could simply Wish yourself into omnipotence, there wouldn't be any 17th lever liches around. They'd all be gods.

[Maxilian]

There's also the issue of how the gods will react to mortals reaching too far. Looking at Forgotten Realms, When the ancient Netheril archmage cast his 12th level spell to steal the power of a god, he stole the powers of Mystryl, the goddess of magic. All magic ceased to function briefly, the Netheril's floating cities crashed into destruction, Karsus died, and when Mystryl reincarnated to Mystra she rewrote the laws of magic, banning such powerful spells.

How the gods act might of course vary between settings, but I think it's 100% fair to say that godhood simply isn't within the scope of the spell. In Forgotten Realms, it seems extremely likely that Mystra wouldn't allow such a mighty spell to exist. That's like the main reason that there are no spells above level 9 there. In a custom setting, you could just say that nope, that's not possible, the deity of magic denies your casting of it. The Wish simply fails, and the deity, as extra punishment, prevents you from casting it ever again (even from magical items). Be happy, you got away easily; the god could have erased you from existence.

Even if Wish could do it and you managed to word if perfectly ... how would the other gods react? Perhaps some Overgod just demotes the mortal back. Perhaps they destroy the wizard for the arrogance of trying to take such a road to godhood.

Besides, if you could simply Wish yourself into omnipotence, there wouldn't be any 17th lever liches around. They'd all be gods.

It could also seen as an oportunity for other Gods to use this new God (That still have the weak mentality of a mortal) to do their binding, maybe they will offer then a deal... in the end, noone have more conflicts than a God