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evisiron
2007-07-08, 08:05 PM
I am likely to play this volatile class in the near future, but would rather avoid slaughtering the other party members.

Does anyone know an effective way to keep the party safe?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-08, 08:08 PM
In a high-level campaign, try making a type of shock collar, a Necklace of Self Lightning Bolt. It electrocutes you.

DSCrankshaw
2007-07-08, 08:11 PM
In a high-level campaign, try making a type of shock collar, a Necklace of Self Lightning Bolt. It electrocutes you.
Or you could try something non-lethal, like say a Hold Person or sleep (Deep Slumber or whatever would affect your level) spell.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-08, 08:13 PM
Will saves are improved during barbarian rage. SPells wouldn't work.

Pink
2007-07-08, 08:13 PM
doesn't calm emotions stop a rage/frenzy?

crazedloon
2007-07-08, 08:15 PM
grease he will auto fail his balance check every round (cant make them if my reading of the rules are correct) thus not move.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-08, 08:26 PM
Resilient Sphere (Sor/Wiz 4) will do it. Reflex save, not Will. Get a deliberately low Dexterity, and you're set.

Make Everyone else Invisible (Sor/Wiz 2) or group everyone else into an Invisibility Sphere (Sor/Wiz 3). You can't see them, it's hard to attack them.

Dex Damage (Shivering Touch, from Frostburn; I forget the spell level) can lock you down pretty effectively, especially as you get a reduced AC while Raging. Just make sure the party Cleric has a Wand of Lesser Restoration handy.

Hectonkhyres
2007-07-08, 08:41 PM
The problem isn't stopping the berserker-nutjob. There are a billion ways you could work that.

The problem is who is going to hold the leash. Which partymember do you actually trust enough to not horribly abuse the power they hold over you? How will you make sure the enemy doesn't hijack this power, stealing the remote control so to speak? Your berserker certainly won't be in his right mind to trigger the collar himself.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-08, 08:44 PM
Personally, I'd get my will save up as high as possible, and give the party arcanist a level one pearl of power with "use in case of emergency" written on it.

That way, he can recall that grease he cast earlier that day to put you on the floor.

reorith
2007-07-08, 11:13 PM
don't worry about it until it becomes a problem. or get a wand of mislead, (whatever) image or some other illusion spell with the figment subschool.

TheOOB
2007-07-08, 11:31 PM
Iron will actually isn't a bad idea for them, apart from helping you not kill your team, failed will saves rank pretty high up among causes of premature fighter death (right below being shot in the face).

Kizara
2007-07-09, 12:30 AM
I fail to see how something that inflicts damage (shock collar) is going to stop/end a frenzy.

Damage provokes frenzies prematurely, not the other way around.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-09, 12:41 AM
Taking a page from OotS, getting yourself Mark of Justice'd might work (if the DM would allow it to restrain you in some way, with the "invent your own curse" bit).

Going after a Mark yourself might seem out of place/character, but after a Cleric sees your frenzy, it would be a way to keep the party safe without leaving your character in the woods somewhere (cos you're a good homicidal barbarian, right?:smallamused:).

TheOOB
2007-07-09, 12:45 AM
Is there anything in the frenzy description that says you lose your ability to purposefully fail a save vs calm emotions?

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-09, 12:57 AM
Is there anything in the frenzy description that says you lose your ability to purposefully fail a save vs calm emotions?

You percieve everything as a threat; ergo, you ain't gonna fail a save for nobody.

NEO|Phyte
2007-07-09, 01:02 AM
Splash a level of Warblade (or blow 2 feats) to get Iron Heart Surge. Martial manouvers can be used during a rage/frenzy. Once the bad guys are gone, Iron Heart Surge, frenzy over.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-09, 01:04 AM
Splash a level of Warblade (or blow 2 feats) to get Iron Heart Surge. Martial manouvers can be used during a rage/frenzy. Once the bad guys are gone, Iron Heart Surge, frenzy over.

The frenzy wouldn't make you choose a more hostile action? I'm not doubting this, just curious as to how it's being played.

NEO|Phyte
2007-07-09, 01:14 AM
You percieve everything as a threat; ergo, you ain't gonna fail a save for nobody.
Actually, nowhere does it say that you lose the ability to tell friend from foe (it specifically says you just attack those you percieve as foes to the best of your ability), its just that you're THAT ANGRY.


The frenzy wouldn't make you choose a more hostile action? I'm not doubting this, just curious as to how it's being played.
...That is actually a good point. On one hand, only percieved FOES must be attacked 'to the best of her ability', on the other hand, once you run out of foes, you start attacking people 'without regard for friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own)'.

Ask your DM, or see if CustServ has flipped a coin for an official answer yet.

stainboy
2007-07-09, 01:33 AM
The Mark of Justice is better than anything I can think of. For maximum roleplaying XP, frenzy in town, kill a few civvies once the bad guys are dead, then get yourself a Mark of Justice out of guilt.

I imagine the idea behind the class was originally that a frenzied berserker was going to have to be very careful about using frenzy - he'd pretty much have to be alone or any a situation where he was physically unable to harm the other party members. If you hang around with a bunch of spellcasters and a monk who can move twice as fast as you that's not hard to arrange, but with a rogue or something it'd be tough. I imagine the party-killing potential is part of balancing the class, and getting around it will probably make the class overpowered. Honestly, you could take away the frenzy class feature and Frenzied Berserker would still be a strong prestige class. 3x bonus damage on 2-handed power attack is win.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-09, 03:20 AM
Wouldn't that Mark simply mean you attack your friends anyway and get cursed/weakened/whatever that mark does as an additional consequence beyond having your friends dead?

Shatteredtower
2007-07-09, 03:29 AM
Actually, nowhere does it say that you lose the ability to tell friend from foe...It even suggests otherwise in the fact that you are permitted a Will save to end the frenzy prematurely. Would you try to end a frenzy you'd willingly entered if you thought there were still enemies trying to fight you?

lord_khaine
2007-07-09, 03:41 AM
the will save to end frenzy could very well be your attempts to realise you have run out of enemies to vent your anger on.

and as galain said, a mark of justice would only mean you would be cursed after killing half your party.

resillient sphere is a good idea, but what if the berserker gets a turn before the wizard gets to act, its not like he isnt able to take most members out on a critt, and with his cleave abilities he might very well drop the last opponent and then cleave the party rogue.

Shatteredtower
2007-07-09, 04:42 AM
the will save to end frenzy could very well be your attempts to realise you have run out of enemies to vent your anger on.The problem with this is that you know exactly who your enemies are right up until the moment they're all gone.

Note also that the ability to inspire frenzy can be used even when there are no enemies present. Since that can only be used on your allies, you have to recognize the fact that you have allies to use it.


resillient sphere is a good idea, but what if the berserker gets a turn before the wizard gets to act...Then perhaps the wizard either should not have been standing so close or should have refrained from using his turn to drop the last enemy standing?

Having a form of movement not available to your frenzied berserker is also worth considering.


...and with his cleave abilities he might very well drop the last opponent and then cleave the party rogue.Easily remedied: move before you attack your last opponent, preventing the 5 ft step necessary to reach the flanking rogue. Don't forget that Bluff is a class skill for rogues, while Sense Motive is not for barbarians or frenzied berserkers.

("There's two more at the top of that cliff! Go! I'll catch up!")

A party with a frenzied berserker should also invest in concealment magic (cloak of displacement, for example) -- and avoid giving the berserker true seeing. If critical hits are a concern, it's time for everyone to invest in the fortification property for their armor (or bracers).

Oh, and hit your berserker with a tanglefoot bag, which is quite affordable by the time the party starts seeing prestige classes. At the very least, it will slow him down. (For that reason, also consider medium armor for your frenzied berserker.)

Summoned and illusory allies also merit consideration as a delaying tactic. Sharing trollform with your familiar can also slow things down, so long as your frenzied berserker's attacks don't do acid or fire damage: at the very worst, he'll knock you both out; at best, he'll need to do so more than once.

Owl's wisdom and spectral hand -- or just mass owl's wisdom -- boost the chance of making that saving throw to end the frenzy, or you could just go for a peridapt of wisdom instead. It's normally not the best buy for a barbarian, but the frenzied berserker's party might appreciate the investment whenever this engine of destruction gets shot by a well-hidden sniper or injured by some unnoticed trap. A cloak of resistance is almost certainly a must.

One more: consider the following suggestion before you go looking for a fight (that way, there's no argument about whether or not the berserker can willing fail a saving throw): "If you must attack any of your friends, I suggest you do it with your bare hands."

Then make sure he's wearing gauntlets or gloves. That should easily give you enough time to sort things out in some other fashion.

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-09, 05:05 AM
Every time I see the frenzied beserker's picture I can't help but snicker:
":furious: Grr, I am woman, hear me frenzy!"
":furious: Where are my tampons!?"
":furious: ROAR!! I have a vagina!!"

Apparently, if you go by the illustrations, the prestige class comes complete with bikini chain mail.

If you want to calm down the PMS avenger, just give her a Ben & Jerry's chunky monkey. That ought to take fatty down peg.

:miko: Do you think this armor makes me look fat?
:roy: No, now shut up and eat some chocolate.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-09, 05:34 AM
:miko: Do you think this armor makes me look fat?

No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat. The armor just makes you look purple.

lord_khaine
2007-07-09, 05:35 AM
The problem with this is that you know exactly who your enemies are right up until the moment they're all gone.

Note also that the ability to inspire frenzy can be used even when there are no enemies present. Since that can only be used on your allies, you have to recognize the fact that you have allies to use it

well i would hardly call someone you are about to cut in 2 a ally, maybe more along priority nr 2.


Then perhaps the wizard either should not have been standing so close or should have refrained from using his turn to drop the last enemy standing?

Having a form of movement not available to your frenzied berserker is also worth considering.


well for most standart frenzied beserkers to close is the same as within a 80 foot line of charge.
and how are you going to predict with 100% accuracy when the last opponent will drop? or for that matter what if the last opponent deside to flee by teleport or dimension door, this will send the berserker at his party instead.

and as for alternative mode of movement, to be save the entire party will have to fly or something, else it just means those who can fly are save, while those who cant are screwed.


Easily remedied: move before you attack your last opponent, preventing the 5 ft step necessary to reach the flanking rogue. Don't forget that Bluff is a class skill for rogues, while Sense Motive is not for barbarians or frenzied berserkers.


this still require you to control where your opponent is, and when he will drop, and for that matter i fail to see how the bluff skill will save the rogue, or how this will help those melee members of the party who does not have this skill.


A party with a frenzied berserker should also invest in concealment magic (cloak of displacement, for example) -- and avoid giving the berserker true seeing. If critical hits are a concern, it's time for everyone to invest in the fortification property for their armor (or bracers).

to start with a cloak of displacement is by no mean cheap, and even then a 50% chance to be hit by a killing blow from one of your "friends" is to big a chance.
and after a battle, even a noncritt from the beserker is proberly enough to take most members out.

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 06:24 AM
a Portable Hole...

ooo oo, or a Ring Gate (I'd like to see him try to chase me with one leg through one of these puppies....if you have multiple sets, you can start playing Frenzied Beserker Hoopla!...sorry, I have a slight obsession with Ring Gates; it's just that they're so damn useful)

Leon
2007-07-09, 06:36 AM
While not wholey the same, my Druid has the Blind Rage Flaw and the DM allows me a Will Save to not attack my companions (much to their relief i pass all the time - that and i tend to drop my glaive when i rage)

bigbaddragon
2007-07-09, 08:01 AM
If everything above said fails someone from your party should get Elusive Target feat which negates power attack damage bonus and leaves the penalties to someone you dodge (if you attack your allies to the best of your ability it is high likely you will use power attack).

Otherwise I cannot but agree with Kizara on how is something that inflicts damage (shock collar) going to stop/end a frenzy.

Person_Man
2007-07-09, 09:35 AM
If you take the Steadfast Determination feat from the PHBII, your Will Save is based off of your Con instead of your Wis (and you don't auto fail Fort Saves on a roll of a natural 1, which is also helpful). With sky high Con scores, a FB with this feat can easily pass the DC 20 Save needed to end Frenzy early... most of the time.

But there are two fundamental problems with the FB.

One is that you still fail your Will Save when you roll a natural 1. Considering how often you're going to have to roll to end Frenzy, its only a matter of time before you fail and kill someone. Even if they have Calm Emotions prepared.

This can be solved by making your primary weapon have the Subduing property (+1 bonus, all damage the weapon deals is subduel damage, I think its from Book of Exalted Deeds). Hilariously, your FB won't kill anyone, but he'll knock virtually everyone on the battlefield out very quickly. And then the more sane members of your party can just walk around dealing out Coup de Grace or tying people up to interrogate them.

The bigger problem with the FB is that you must make a Will Save (DC 10+CUMULATIVE damage taken that round) to avoid setting off your Frenzy. This means you will almost always burn through your Frenzy uses during your first few encounters in any game day (including trap encounters or environmental encounters where you might take damage). This will make it impossible for you to save your Frenzy uses for the hard battles, when you really need them.

Having DM'd several games with a FB PC, I found that they definitely were not worth the trouble. If you want a killer Barbarian build, there are numerous stron non-FB options out there, especially given the existence of the Complete Champion.

Indon
2007-07-09, 09:40 AM
Isn't killing a helpless opponent an evil act?

The_Werebear
2007-07-09, 10:05 AM
Wand of Silent Image

As the last baddie goes down, the wizard makes an illusion of one more. The berserker then attempts to beat the crap out of that last enemy who just won't die for some reason.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-09, 10:48 AM
The more obvious is to rise your Will Saves. Try to rise your Wisdom, get Iron Will, and something that gives bonus to Will Saves, like a cape or vest.
In a worst case scenario, you can't stop entering a frenzy, but can get out of it quickly. You'll just spend daily uses.

Captain van der Decken
2007-07-09, 10:51 AM
Doesn't the Righteous Wrath feat in the BoED always let you tell friend from foe when raging? Even if you ruled it didn't apply to Frenzy, just rage at the same time.

Person_Man
2007-07-09, 11:12 AM
Isn't killing a helpless opponent an evil act?

Why would killing a helpless opponent be an Evil act in D&D? You were going to kill them anyway, so presumably they're a monster, Evil, or have otherwise brought their death upon themselves by attacking your party. If killing a helpless opponent is considered Evil, then using Hold Person should be an Evil spell, since that's obviously what its used for.

Now, it might be considered a dishonorable (and thus non-Lawful) act, especially for a Knight (and maybe a Paladin, depending on their particular code). But since you have a FB in the party, I don't see how that's an issue.

Of course, in our actual reality I personally would consider all murder of any human under any circumstances an Evil and unlawful act. But real world morality is not a topic for discussion on this board.

evisiron
2007-07-09, 11:17 AM
Easily remedied: move before you attack your last opponent, preventing the 5 ft step necessary to reach the flanking rogue. Don't forget that Bluff is a class skill for rogues, while Sense Motive is not for barbarians or frenzied berserkers.

("There's two more at the top of that cliff! Go! I'll catch up!")



One more: consider the following suggestion before you go looking for a fight (that way, there's no argument about whether or not the berserker can willing fail a saving throw): "If you must attack any of your friends, I suggest you do it with your bare hands."

Then make sure he's wearing gauntlets or gloves. That should easily give you enough time to sort things out in some other fashion.


My favourite solution so far! :smallbiggrin: I don't believe it would work by RAW, but it does sound like something I could convince the DM to run with.

lukelightning
2007-07-09, 11:26 AM
Isn't killing a helpless opponent an evil act?

I dunno, but willingly killing your friends certainly is. If a frenzied berzerker attacks and kills a teammate/friend I'd say they are certainly evil. Being in a frenzy in no way mitigates that, any more than being drunk is an excuse.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-07-09, 11:38 AM
You all are WAY overthinking it. Splash in some Warblade? L4 spells? Shock collars to STOP an Frenzy (i would rule something like that would incur another higher will save to stop another frenzy)? If they step on a caltrop, in the RAW; they should fly into a frenzy.

I do not have access to the books currently, but the save to stop a frenzy is DC15 Will, right? I know that will saves are usually not the best for a barb/FB , but... the barb should have a high enough wisdom (Someone that grows up in the wild or has an animalistic nature typically has a high WIS to be aware of it's surroundings) to make up for a poor will save; and oh yeah, whilst raging, he gets a +2 to will saves. Having the party cleric cast something simple like Owl's Wisdom or something low level like that should be fine. :smallsmile:

lord_khaine
2007-07-09, 12:08 PM
Quirinus, even with the insanely high will save of +13, the berserker will still fail on a roll of 1, that means a 5% chance every time where he frenzy for attacking a teammate, where it would only take a singel hit to kill a woundet teammate.

now imagine a standart barbarian/frenzied beserker 6/6, he will have a base will save of +4, +2 for rageing and maybe +2 from wisdom as well, thats just +8, or a 30% chance of failing his save Every time goes into frenzy, something he will proberly do in each encounter.

even if you build your entire party around surviving the beserkers rages there is still a chance it might fail, relying on him making his save is just sheer folly.

evisiron
2007-07-09, 12:16 PM
You all are WAY overthinking it. Splash in some Warblade? L4 spells? Shock collars to STOP an Frenzy (i would rule something like that would incur another higher will save to stop another frenzy)? If they step on a caltrop, in the RAW; they should fly into a frenzy.

I do not have access to the books currently, but the save to stop a frenzy is DC15 Will, right? I know that will saves are usually not the best for a barb/FB , but... the barb should have a high enough wisdom (Someone that grows up in the wild or has an animalistic nature typically has a high WIS to be aware of it's surroundings) to make up for a poor will save; and oh yeah, whilst raging, he gets a +2 to will saves. Having the party cleric cast something simple like Owl's Wisdom or something low level like that should be fine. :smallsmile:

Just to keep you straight, it is DC 20 to end it prematurely. Also, it is DC 10 + Damage since last turn to avoid going into a frenzy.

As for good Will saves (which you did mention) with Barb levels and 2 fighter, we have a +2 Will save bonus. But why would you have a high WIS? If you are playing a barbarian, chances are your mental stats are not the highest. Admittedly, if you are planning a FB, you might make that a higher stat, but even that is a little unlikely.

So, as someone previously posted, it is about +10 to your will save with the raging bonuses, so its a 50/50 chance you attack a party member that turn. If it was a nasty fight, and the next target is a spellcaster with low HP, that member is pretty likely to die. That only needs to happen a few times (if that) before the FB is looking at 'early retirement' from the group.

So, no-one is over-thinking it. This stuff is essential!

Also, looking at it, it mentions that the FB attacks the nearest 'foe' so the silent image idea may have merit. In the crazy mode, should a FB get a chance to see through the illusion?

Truwar
2007-07-09, 12:25 PM
Cheesy Solution: Simply trip your allies again and again until the frenzy ends. I do not think it specifies exactly what kind of attack a Frenzied Berserker must make.

Not So Cheesy Solution: Play a Half Orc, take extra rage (gaining 3 extra rages per day) then take channeled rage (from Races of Destiny) which allows you to burn a rage to apply your strength bonus to your will save. It might also help to have a pal with calm emotions in a ring of spell storing just in case.

evisiron
2007-07-09, 12:40 PM
Unfortunately it says "to the best of her ability".

This basically means the DM is likely to enforce what ever attacks I use against the real enemies on the allies as well (such as power attacks).

Still, I might try hurling my sword away before the last enemy falls and start engaging people in bare handed combat.

Capt .12 Gauge
2007-07-09, 12:54 PM
the obvious answer is Bear Warrior from from Complete warrior. When you rage you turn into a bear, which is nice. Plus then next level you qualify for WarChanger which gives you immunity to crits and precision damage. Uncritable bar-bear-ian, for teh win.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-09, 01:24 PM
the obvious answer is Bear Warrior from from Complete warrior. When you rage you turn into a bear, which is nice. Plus then next level you qualify for WarChanger which gives you immunity to crits and precision damage. Uncritable bar-bear-ian, for teh win.

How is turning into a bear, becoming immune to crits and becoming immune to precision damage going to help with 'Restraining a Frenzied Beserker'?

Do bad puns end frenzy?

HotSake
2007-07-09, 01:55 PM
Just read the Friendly Berserker thread on the CO forums.

lukelightning
2007-07-09, 02:36 PM
How is turning into a bear, becoming immune to crits and becoming immune to precision damage going to help with 'Restraining a Frenzied Beserker'?


Well, your bear-zerker and frenzied berzerker can duke it out.

Rad
2007-07-09, 03:00 PM
If you're really, really good you can take the exalted feat Righteous Wrath that would pretty much negate the problem completely. You need to stay up to the exalted standards though.
As somebody pointed out you still have the problem of saving your rages for the good fights, but at least you do not kill people at random.
The merciful weapon is also a great idea; it also gives +1d6 damage. It can be switched off to do normal damage but then it loses the extra d6, which leaves room for a "fighting to the best of one's abilities" argument.

Orak
2007-07-09, 03:19 PM
I played recently in a campaign that had a frenzied berserker.

The only real solution to dealing with one is to let it walk into a combat that it can't win solo and just move away while it frenzies to death. This may seem like a cruel fate but it is better than having the rest of the party die.

The biggest problem is that the frenzied berserker does so much damage. With their improved power attack and deathless frenzy they can easily do 50 damage a hit. When you think that they are going to have 4 attacks a round, what character is going to be able to survive that? There are a lot of spells that can control a berserker at the end of the fight but none of them are guaranteed. They all have saves. Even though the berserker might need a high roll to pass them, believe me Murphy will raise his ugly head at the worst moment and you will have dead characters.

But don't get me wrong, frenzied berserkers are a ton of fun in a player party. Figuring out how to survive when the berserker finishes off the last bad guy can be really entertaining (my bard was a dedicated friend and stood by him healing while invisible). But realize that the lifespan of a berserker is fairly short, once you get into the presitge Be happy if you live for 3 or 4 levels of presitige. The damage they can dish out is incredible, but your party cleric may not appreciate that so much when you are power attacking his face.

Most control solutions don't work 100% of the time, and eventually someone will die. Just have fun with it while it lasts, like a mason jar of nitroglycerine.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-09, 03:36 PM
Well...

ForceCage is totally reliable. It costs a lot, but it is totally reliable (grants neither save nor SR). It is, however, a 7th level spell. Go with the Barred version, and you can even cast those nifty ranged Mass Cure spells through it to get the FB back into the positives before the Deathless Frenzy ends.

Mind you, you still have to make sure to cast it BEFORE you run out of opponents.... ideally, trapping the opponents in with the FB.

lukelightning
2007-07-09, 03:46 PM
Go with the Barred version, and you can even cast those nifty ranged Mass Cure spells through it to get the FB back into the positives before the Deathless Frenzy ends.

Cure him so he can attempt to kill you some other time? Nah, let him die. Problem solved permanently.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-09, 04:10 PM
If it's a man get your party tank to run up and kick him in the nuts. No matter what condition a man is in, that will stop im dead in his tracks for about 10 minutes.

Truwar
2007-07-09, 05:15 PM
Here is an example of a Frenzied Berserker fully capable of restraining himself (mostly :smallwink: ).

Race: Half Orc
Class: Barbarian 1 / Psychic Warrior 7 / Frenzied Berserker 1
Str: 21 (23)
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14(16)
Cha: 7

Level Progression:
1 Barbarian Extra Rage
1 Barbarian/1Psychic Warrior Power Attack
1 Barbarian/2 Psychic Warrior Cleave, Intimidating Rage
1 Barbarian/3 Psychic Warrior
1 Barbarian/4 Psychic Warrior
1 Barbarian/5 Psychic Warrior PsyCrystal Affinity (resolve), Destructive Rage
1 Barbarian/6 Psychic Warrior
1 Barbarian/7 Psychic Warrior
1 Barbarian/7 Psychic Warrior/1 Frenzied Berserker Channeled Rage

Equipment: +1 Keen Adamantine Falchion, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Cloak of Resistance +2, Periapt of Wisdom +2, Boots of Striding and Springing, Rhino Hide Armor.

With Psionic Lion’s Charge you will be able to do over 100 points of damage on average to an opponent with an AC of 20. You will also have a will save of +9 (+2 for class +3 for wisdom +2 for your cloak and +2 for you Resolve PsiCystal) when needing to exit a Frenzy you simply use Channeled Rage and expend one of your 3 rages (1 plus the three from extra rage, minus one for the one you used in conjunction with the Frenzy you are trying to come out of). This will give you a boost of +11 (your current Strength Bonus) to your Will save to exit your Frenzy making failure only possible on a roll of 1.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-09, 05:29 PM
Cure him so he can attempt to kill you some other time? Nah, let him die. Problem solved permanently.
Well, yes, but I was running under the assumption that the idea of restraining the Frenzied Berserker was to make him useable later (as something other than a skeleton/zombie/other undead).

goat
2007-07-09, 05:46 PM
1) Get barbarian to take a variant without increased movement rate.

2) Get everyone else an item of Expeditious retreat. Shouldn't need to be too pricey.

3) Run like ^%$*.

Shatteredtower
2007-07-09, 08:10 PM
well i would hardly call someone you are about to cut in 2 a ally, maybe more along priority nr 2.The rules for inspiring frenzy render your opinion on the issue moot, however. You can inspire an ally even once you've run out of enemies; therefore, you still perceive them as allies, even while being compelled by the frenzy to attack them.

Now if that wasn't the case and the only reason the frenzied berserker could attack you was because he or she perceived you as an enemy, the fix would be as simple as casting charm person (a 1st level spell) on the frenzied berserker before wandering out into the field, then using those opposed Charisma checks to compel the frenzied berserker to refrain from attacking anyone, something it would not ordinarily do during a frenzy. The frenzy does not negate the spell's effect, after all, and the berserker automatically fails the Charisma check.


well for most standart frenzied beserkers to close is the same as within a 80 foot line of charge.First, this is why the frenzied berserker should be in medium armor. Second, grease breaks a charge, since it impedes your movement even if you do make the Balance check. Better yet, a frenzied berserker automatically fails that Balance check and falls over. Finally, your frenzied berserker is not going to attack you through an illusory wall, but you can fire spells (and ranged weaponry) through it just fine.


and how are you going to predict with 100% accuracy when the last opponent will drop?It's sufficient to know that you are facing a last opponent. This would be the time to ready calm emotions or resilient sphere.


or for that matter what if the last opponent deside to flee by teleport or dimension door, this will send the berserker at his party instead.If you can't shut down this ability to flee, then you are strongly advised to put someone on berserker nullification detail.


and as for alternative mode of movement, to be save the entire party will have to fly or something, else it just means those who can fly are save, while those who cant are screwed.This is why you put the frenzied berserker in medium armor. At that point, all a rogue of the same race needs are boots of striding and springing, while Small characters need nothing more than a riding dog. It's not like you can't afford potions of levitation (or invisibility) either.

Heck, bards, sorcerers, and rogues are all more than capable of convincingly playing dead for this purpose, which lets them decoy the berserker quite nicely. Ready an action to play dead the moment the berserker rushes you, thereby spoiling his charge and giving everyone else a round to get out of sight.


this still require you to control where your opponent is and when he will drop...Neither, actually. When there is one opponent, the person closest to the frenzied berserker stops attacking.


...and for that matter i fail to see how the bluff skill will save the rogue, or how this will help those melee members of the party who does not have this skill.Playing dead is the most immediately successful strategy for the rogue specifically, but convincing the frenzied berserker that there's still an invisible enemy "over there" is also effective. "He's just on the other side of that illusory wall!" isn't likely to work more than once, but there are variations that can be utilized indefinitely: over that hill, through that door, round that bend, down that tunnel...


...to start with a cloak of displacement is by no mean cheap, and even then a 50% chance to be hit by a killing blow from one of your "friends" is to big a chance.A 50% chance if all else goes wrong. Cheap isn't the issue: we're just discussing options to reduce the risks long enough to shut the guy down. If it must be cheap, you can always use a potion of displacement, though invisibility is cheaper and more effective if you don't have to keep fighting. A readied wall of fog or solid fog can also help.

Some of these resources are not cheap at 7th level, but a lot of satisfactory ones are: grease, potions of invisibility and levitation, and wall of fog (the poor man's mass invisibility works just fine against frenzied berserkers), and the creative can get good usage out of ghost sound and ventriloquism.


...and after a battle, even a noncritt from the beserker is proberly enough to take most members out.This assumes that other members of your party are going to be seriously injured and remain so at the end of every fight, which is rather unlikely. Even when it does occur, chances are good that such allies are already out of the fight -- or more likely to pull off the "playing dead" bluff.


There are a lot of spells that can control a berserker at the end of the fight but none of them are guaranteed.Since a character is always allowed to deliberately fail a saving throw, yes, they are.

If you are able to fight to end your frenzy, you are also able to reach for the first lifeline capable of ending that rage.

If your frenzied berserker is getting injured by traps, it's almost certainly because you're doing a poor job of sweeping for them. If caltrops are such a concern, keep advancing in the barbarian class until you've got damage reduction -- a good idea anyway, since every point of damage reduction is effectively a +1 bonus on your Will save to avoid involuntarily entering a rage in response to an attack. If snipers are always trying to set off your frenzied berserker without ever being spotted or attacking other party members, your DM has a lot of explaining to do.

The "roll of 1 on the Will save," fear is being greatly exaggerated. Sure, it will happen. It might even happen two rounds in a row (1 in 400 chance), even three (1 in 8000), but there's no reason it should ever go beyond that first round. If it happens in your midst and no enemies are present, yes, there's a chance that someone will die.

Big deal. By 7th level, enervation and phantasmal killer can both slay you outright. Bodaks are a reasonable encounter at this level, when death ward is not something you can maintain on a full party for any length of time. Yes, these are all outside threats, but the peril of the frenzied berserker also comes from outside threats. No outside threat means no danger from the frenzied berserker. Such a threat is readily made far worse by the berserker's presence, but that's a factor you can prepare for well in advance. You won't always know about that flight of cockatrices.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-07-09, 08:16 PM
As a FB, you're very likely to have a terrible will save. In a past game I was in, we had someone in the party who could cast hold person, and that would give the FB the time to come out of frenzy without killing the entire party.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 01:31 AM
I just don't see a problem with it. You burn through Frenzy uses for setting off a trap. SO WHAT? You have 5 uses. There are generally 3 encounters in a day. So you have a buffer of 2 "crap" triggers(which you can end as though you got hit for 5 damage last round, so generally easier than the trigger), and still enough for each encounter(you can't Rage/Frenzy more than once each per encounter, although you can stack both for the same encounter). People are looking far too much at the weaknesses of the class, which are not even that great. Get Iron Will, some spells/items that raise your Willpower, and you're golden. And for the record, Firesdotter is not fat. I'd hit that. :smallfurious: Many times. :smallbiggrin: She can inspire Frenzy in me anytime.:smallcool:

lord_khaine
2007-07-10, 08:54 AM
The rules for inspiring frenzy render your opinion on the issue moot, however. You can inspire an ally even once you've run out of enemies; therefore, you still perceive them as allies, even while being compelled by the frenzy to attack them.

well the rule that when he runs out of opponents he starts to treat his allies as opponents renders your opinion moot as well.


First, this is why the frenzied berserker should be in medium armor. Second, grease breaks a charge, since it impedes your movement even if you do make the Balance check. Better yet, a frenzied berserker automatically fails that Balance check and falls over. Finally, your frenzied berserker is not going to attack you through an illusory wall, but you can fire spells (and ranged weaponry) through it just fine.

have you ever heard about something called a room, or a tunnel? they are quite commen in something called dungeons, and means that even if the beserker can only charge 40 feet, then its quite often enough to reach someone else from the party.
and it means its more or less impossibel to engage the opponent(s) without getting inside the charge range.
the grease spell only covers a 10 foot square, so its usualy very limited who can hide behind it, in those cases where he cant simply walk around it.
and im pretty sure even the beserker will think there is something funny about the wall you are firering spells and missile weapons though.
and for that matter, the wall will block line of sight, making it very hard to hit anything on the other side.


It's sufficient to know that you are facing a last opponent. This would be the time to ready calm emotions or resilient sphere.

aha, and what if there is only 1 opponent, or 1 strong and several weak, does that mean you suggest one of the partys caster spends the entire battle wating to cast a ressilient sphere that might get saved?
i doesnt really think its fair to ask another player to spend a entire battle waiting to shut down the party beserker.


This is why you put the frenzied berserker in medium armor. At that point, all a rogue of the same race needs are boots of striding and springing, while Small characters need nothing more than a riding dog. It's not like you can't afford potions of levitation (or invisibility) either.

Heck, bards, sorcerers, and rogues are all more than capable of convincingly playing dead for this purpose, which lets them decoy the berserker quite nicely. Ready an action to play dead the moment the berserker rushes you, thereby spoiling his charge and giving everyone else a round to get out of sight
as mentioned before, 40 yeards of charge range is more than enough to reach a fellow party member most of the time, and he has to be very very stupid to belive you suddenly drops dead in the middel of a fight after you have done it a couple of times.
and being faster than the beserker doesnt help if he caches you before you gets a chance to flee, there might not be any rules for it, but a corpse doesnt have any movement speed.


Neither, actually. When there is one opponent, the person closest to the frenzied berserker stops attacking

for this to work its not just the person closest to the berserker who have to stop, its the entire party who have to stand back and wach to be save.


Playing dead is the most immediately successful strategy for the rogue specifically, but convincing the frenzied berserker that there's still an invisible enemy "over there" is also effective. "He's just on the other side of that illusory wall!" isn't likely to work more than once, but there are variations that can be utilized indefinitely: over that hill, through that door, round that bend, down that tunnel...


how many times to you think the berserken can hit you before you are even halfway done convincing him there might be more opponents?


This assumes that other members of your party are going to be seriously injured and remain so at the end of every fight, which is rather unlikely. Even when it does occur, chances are good that such allies are already out of the fight -- or more likely to pull off the "playing dead" bluff

seriously injured isnt even nececary, a halfway decent berserker can with a bit of power attack chop over ½ of a weaker party members hp down, and kill most people on a critt.
yes heavy fortification guards against critts, and thats allready 36k, assuming you dont want any other enchants on your armor.


Since a character is always allowed to deliberately fail a saving throw, yes, they are.

no, when you are attacking someone to the best of your ability, you isnt going to start villingly failing any saves.

Truwar, i kinda doubt you will be able to use psionic powers while raging and frenzying, but even so that just means that when the natural 1 pops up, your charger build will proberly 1-shot a party member.

AtomicKitKat, i kinda hope you are joking there, you cant see the problem in that once in a while the hardest hitting member of your party will try to kill you, quite often while you are weak from battle.

there is a lot of options that might reduce the chance of the berserker running wild, but it end up fast with the party allocating more resources to defend themself against the berserker than they use on surviving the encounters.

RoadBlock
2007-07-10, 09:11 AM
My players did a great job of dealing w/ my Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 / Eye of Gruumsh 2 / FB 1.

After his fighter companion was held and killed, my FB was able to drop the party's dwarf tank. The party wizard then tried to trap the FB in a Resiliant Sphere. The FB made his reflex save by rolling an 18 and charged the party's rogue/swashbuckler, who was at 4 HP when the FB missed his last attack. The wizard then used a wall of force to protect the rest of the party, then a Solid Fog to protect himself. By the time the FB, made it out of the fog, he was stopped by a grease and several sneak attacks. His flat-footed AC was 7. :P

When we had an FB in a different campaign, we'd always have him go to the edge of whatever city we were getting ready to enter and frenzy in the empty wilderness, as we were afraid he'd stub his toe and end up killing a good number of innocent citizens. We'd also used Sanctuary, Calm Emotions, and Repulsion to good effect.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 09:56 AM
I'm not joking. FB is not that much of a liability, except in inexperienced hands/parties. All the stuff has already been said, but here it is again:

1. You can end the Frenzy anytime you want. I choose right after all those who don't have "this symbol" on their clothing are dead. You have a better than 50% chance of ending it by the time you hit Barbarian 10/FB 10(Base Will Save 6. +2 with Iron Will. +2 minimum with Steadfast Determination+Rage. Now you only fail on a 4 or less).

2. "FB may not believe that you are dead if you keep pretending to die." Well gee, then don't "keep pretending to die". Pretend to die right after you've dropped your last enemy, before he has his. As far as he's concerned, you took grievous wounds from the enemy just before you killed him. After that, just play dead till he runs out of steam, recovers. This applies to everyone. He can't use Sense Motive anyway, so it's pretty-much auto-fail against your Bluff.

3. Thayan Knight automatically fails saves against spells cast by Red Wizards. If you and the party mage are both Humans, have him take Red Wizard of Thay, you dip Thayan Knight, and he will always be ready to restrain you.

4. Disintegrate on the ground beneath FB works. If you can, drop him another 10 feet. Even with his super Strength, he will be fairly hard pressed to do a standing 20 foot Vertical Jump(unless he took Leap of the Heavens, but that's another issue altogether).

5. Forcecage is the usual "lame win button". I shouldn't need to elaborate, but no save, no SR. Let him smash the bars all he wants. He's not breaking them. Ditto Wall of Force. Solid Fog is the poor man's option.

6. Pre-placed spells work well as well. "I suggest that you not attack those wearing 'this symbol(whatever the party's insignia is.)'" "If you attempt to attack anyone wearing 'this symbol', you will be rendered helpless from pain(which is completely different from HP damage)."

7. If all else fails, Fire Shield. Sure, the party wizard is going to get misted, but if you're lucky, same goes for the Berserker.

8. Okay, there is still 1 possibility. Overwhelm from PHB2 will pump him full of non-lethal damage. Instant KO. Coupled with the -1 hp per round from Frenzy, he should be knocked out until well after it wears off.

magicwalker
2007-07-10, 10:40 AM
Reaping Mauler holds his hand for a while?

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 11:17 AM
Reaping Mauler holds his hand for a while?

True. Just squeeze him unconscious. The problem would be if your Reaping Mauler is also your sole Frenzied Berserker. Otherwise, Frenzy+squeeze to submission.:smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine
2007-07-10, 02:50 PM
well i think a reaping mauler would have trouble getting a hold on a frenzied berserker, and if he dont he is done for.

1. well yes you might pump your will save up, but that still doesnt mean there isnt a chance he fails the save, even with a +19 will bonus there is still a 5% chance every frenzy that he will start swinging at you.

2. as i have said before, how many encounters do you think it it will take before he learns you are playing dead? or for that matter spots you are still alive.
even then, playing dead isnt covered by the standart bluff rules, and have to be ruled in by the DM.

3. ok if both the wizard and the berserker take a pretty restrictive prestice class, then there isnt any chance of him making his save, that still doesnt do anything in the situation where the berserker gets a action before the wizard and chop his would-be master in 2.

4+5 this still assume the wizard actualy gets a action before the berserker, or have been spending the whole battle waiting with a readied action to cast his spell.

6. i have no idea what you are talking about here

7. i seriously dont see your point here either, how on earth would it help that the berserker gets 1d6+7-15 points of fire damage when he kills the wizard?

8. i dont have the phb2, but overwhelm does sound like something that takes you dangerously close to the berserker.

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-10, 03:07 PM
Some Ideas;

Commission customized weapons for the Berserker, that magically switch to subdual damage, say, when used against someone wearing one of a set f corresponding magic rings. Might involve talking to the DM about it, but it would make things pretty safe for the others in the party, especially if you can convince the Barbarian to not take those improved-unarmed-strike type feats. :)

Also, it does require the DM agreeing that the Frenzied Berserker would not think to, or realise to make with the coup-de-graces. It also leaves the Dm with several possible story-hooks revolving around the FB, and his weapons and the rings. (allies losing them, enemies obtaining, etc.)

Wasn't there some kind of Ring-of-the-master / Ring-of-the-slave set in Vile Darkness? I'm pretty sure it was limited to inflicting pain, but you could always homebrew the slave-ring to subdual damage, or some kind of crippling-effect and use the price/etc of the Vile Darkness Rings as a guide.

Obviously, the FB him/Herself would have to be not just in agreement on these, but possibly have saught such options themselves in the first place.
It would be quite cool to have the FB be really, really close friends/trusting adventure-partners with one specific member of the party, sharing a backstory or something, and have him responsible/as the master-ring-wearer, or so.

I've been intruiged by the Frenzied Berserker myself, for a while. mostly because I had a really potentially awesome character on a forum RP that would make a perfect frenzied berserker. (an exiled female dwarf, who when not in an uncontrollable, face-gnawing, eye-gouging murderous fury, was a guilt-wracked intensely introverted, mostly gentle young thing. Never got the chance to do much with her, so far, though. It was so potentially cool though.)

lukelightning
2007-07-10, 03:19 PM
I've been intruiged by the Frenzied Berserker myself, for a while. mostly because I had a really potentially awesome character on a forum RP that would make a perfect frenzied berserker.

Why not just play a regular barbarian and roleplay your frenzy?

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-10, 03:41 PM
Why not just play a regular barbarian and roleplay your frenzy?

Well, that was the other option, yes. It'll be a while till I get the chance to try it out either way, but the point was, the existing character was basically almost eerily appropriate as a Frenzied Berserker. Desirable as? That's another issue. ;)

lord_khaine
2007-07-10, 04:21 PM
the big question is more, do you think your party can find a roleplaying reason for keeping someone around who cant control themself?

Shatteredtower
2007-07-10, 06:33 PM
well the rule that when he runs out of opponents he starts to treat his allies as opponents renders your opinion moot as well.Not at all, because the rules say no such thing. They do, however, say that you can inspire frenzy in your allies. They don't say that you can't do that after your enemies are all dead.

It's still academic, however, because you can make Wisdom-based checks just fine, which means that your hearing is not turned off. If you're trying to end your rage and someone offers you an option to calm down, you'll take it.


have you ever heard about something called a room, or a tunnel?Illusory wall means never having to say you share a tunnel with the frenzied berserker. Tiny hut works too.


they are quite commen in something called dungeons, and means that even if the beserker can only charge 40 feet, then its quite often enough to reach someone else from the party. and it means its more or less impossibel to engage the opponent(s) without getting inside the charge range.Grease.


the grease spell only covers a 10 foot square, so its usualy very limited who can hide behind it...I believe the appropriate response is, "Have you ever heard about something called a tunnel?" :smallwink:


in those cases where he cant simply walk around it.So much for charging, then.


and im pretty sure even the beserker will think there is something funny about the wall you are firering spells and missile weapons though.Why would you be doing that when there are no enemies at which to hurl such things?


...and for that matter, the wall will block line of sight, making it very hard to hit anything on the other side.It's a figment. Anyone that interacts with it knows it's a figment, and to them, it doesn't block wall of sight at all. You can also use tiny hut, which is a level lower: transparent from inside and opaque from outside, it meets all of your shopping needs.


aha, and what if there is only 1 opponent, or 1 strong and several weak, does that mean you suggest one of the partys caster spends the entire battle wating to cast a ressilient sphere that might get saved?Then learn how to tag team.


i doesnt really think its fair to ask another player to spend a entire battle waiting to shut down the party beserker.Yes, because the frenzied berserker is never going to be denied a chance to act by the party spellcaster.


as mentioned before, 40 yeards of charge range is more than enough to reach a fellow party member most of the time...And as mentioned before, grease bests that every single time. You cannot charge around it.


and he has to be very very stupid to belive you suddenly drops dead in the middel of a fight after you have done it a couple of times.You can't get any stupider than automatically failing all Intelligence- and Charisma-based checks. I can order an animal to search for a secret door, and it might be able to find one. Meanwhile, the frenzied berserker's chance of success is equal to that of a golem, giant spider, or zombie, all creatures with no Intelligence score. That's about as dumb as it gets, really.

Besides, does your frenzied berserker want to be the last person standing? If so, said character wants to believe the Bluff check, which makes your task easier. Besides, since Intelligence is the score tied to memory, he's not going to remember the last battle well enough to think, "Hey, this guy fooled me last time."

And in the unlikely event that he can remember that, he can certainly remember that you're his friend.


...and being faster than the beserker doesnt help if he caches you before you gets a chance to flee, there might not be any rules for it, but a corpse doesnt have any movement speed.We already covered the issue of not getting a chance to flee.


for this to work its not just the person closest to the berserker who have to stop, its the entire party who have to stand back and wach to be save.Incorrect. He's always going to attack the closest target first after all enemies are gone. He'll even do that if the closest person is behind a wall of force. I mean, he can clearly see his target and he's easily frenzy-dumb enough to believe that he'll eventually punch his way through if he just keeps swinging.


how many times to you think the berserken can hit you before you are even halfway done convincing him there might be more opponents?Not even once. We meet the enemy. He attacks, while I spend my turn telling him that there are four more guys lurking on the roof, around the corner, or where-have-you. If I go first, this was too easy. If he goes first, my party gets time to get out of sight. After all, if he doesn't go chasing after enemies that teleport away or turn invisible, he's not going after people who've otherwise fled the area.


no, when you are attacking someone to the best of your ability, you isnt going to start villingly failing any saves.Attacking to the best of your ability is not the same as defending to the best of your ability. The mere fact that you're fighting to end the rage already puts the lie to that.


the big question is more, do you think your party can find a roleplaying reason for keeping someone around who cant control themself?The Argonauts did.

goat
2007-07-10, 06:52 PM
Get a few Bags of Tricks. Throw animals at him until he successfully calms down.

evisiron
2007-07-10, 08:51 PM
The Merciful weapon option may be an idea. It means only beating my buddies into unconsciousness, and since the non lethal damage deals an extra d6 damage, it means there is a reason the FB would stop surpressing the power.

Just wondering, is there any reason not to use the Merciful thing all the time (extra d6 damage but all damage is non lethal)? I assume you can go coup de grace-ing the dropped opponents when everyone is down, but I can't remember how non lethal damage is worked (PhB not available at the moment). Does it run on a separate hp than the lethal stuff?
Can it work vs undead and the like?

evisiron
2007-07-10, 08:52 PM
Get a few Bags of Tricks. Throw animals at him until he successfully calms down.

Hehe. For a second I thought you meant the fuzzy cuteness would help clam him down, but you mean he wastes time slaughtering the critters, right?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-10, 11:18 PM
Holy crud, the Bag Of Rats is back!

As for Merciful: if they're so angry that they can't even tell the difference between friend and foe, they probably don't feel like messing around with pansy subdual damage. On the other hand, if they're just that angry, they might not even remember how to disable the Mercy.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-11, 06:58 AM
well i think a reaping mauler would have trouble getting a hold on a frenzied berserker, and if he dont he is done for.

1. well yes you might pump your will save up, but that still doesnt mean there isnt a chance he fails the save, even with a +19 will bonus there is still a 5% chance every frenzy that he will start swinging at you.

1 in 20? I'll take my chances. If he's got one of those "reroll once a day" Luck type things, it drops to 1 in 400. I would definitely bet on that horse.



2. as i have said before, how many encounters do you think it it will take before he learns you are playing dead? or for that matter spots you are still alive.
even then, playing dead isnt covered by the standart bluff rules, and have to be ruled in by the DM.

FB won't give 2 hoots whether you dropped the last time. As far as he's concerned, "FB STRONGEST THERE IS!". Whatever brainpower he has simply assumes you were weak, staggered, and your last action(which cost you 1 HP and knocked you out) was to kill the enemy in front of you. Hell, it could happen to him too, what with that 1 non-lethal damage he takes each round in a Frenzy. He may not "want to believe" the Bluff, but there is no risk to him to do so, so the modifier is +0.


3. ok if both the wizard and the berserker take a pretty restrictive prestice class, then there isnt any chance of him making his save, that still doesnt do anything in the situation where the berserker gets a action before the wizard and chop his would-be master in 2.

It's just an option. It doesn't matter whether he gets an action before the Wizard. Mr Wizard either uses hours/level or days/level things like Dominate Monster, or Thrall, and on his turn before the Berserker drops the guy, gives him the suggestion/order to stop fighting once the enemy drops.


4+5 this still assume the wizard actualy gets a action before the berserker, or have been spending the whole battle waiting with a readied action to cast his spell.

How many attacks does he have? If he drops the last enemy on his first hit, he only has a move action or 5 foot step+remaining attacks before his turn is up. If he full attacked, all he has is a 5 foot step left, and he can spend his remaining attacks(unless Wizard is more than 5 foot step+reach weapon away, which is also likely). You can forcecage him+enemy(unless you regularly face giants or something). Solid Fog doesn't impede his ability to kill the opponent, just his ability to leave the area afterwards. If you have a Knight buddy, the "treat as difficult terrain" class feature means he will have difficulties moving as well(until he kills said Knight, who can also take a blow for his allies if needed).


6. i have no idea what you are talking about here

You place something like a Mark of Justice, or Suggestion, or Dominate Person on him, or contingent stuff that triggers if he attacks anyone on the wrong team(ie, his "allies").


7. i seriously dont see your point here either, how on earth would it help that the berserker gets 1d6+7-15 points of fire damage when he kills the wizard?

The Fire Shield was me remembering second edition, where it did like double damage on the attacker, but the point still stands. Anything that brings the Berserker closer to unconsciousness can only help. Besides which, the Wizard has Mirror Image, Displacement, whatever else up, which significantly reduces his chances of falling apart.


8. i dont have the phb2, but overwhelm does sound like something that takes you dangerously close to the berserker.

Might possibly be a touch-range spell, which you could hold the charge of, or cast defensively, or if you're an enlightened fist, combine with a stunning fist to put him under.

All of the above are options. You can just pick any one of them, and it helps. The more of them you implement, the less likely it is that you end up painting the dungeon red with your bodies, but it's not necessary to pick them all.

Rad
2007-07-11, 09:11 AM
Holy crud, the Bag Of Rats is back!

As for Merciful: if they're so angry that they can't even tell the difference between friend and foe, they probably don't feel like messing around with pansy subdual damage. On the other hand, if they're just that angry, they might not even remember how to disable the Mercy.

He does not need to KNOW the word that deactivates it. Most of the time is the wizard casting identify and thus he is the only one knowing the command words. It is assumed that he shares his knowledge on the one who gets the item later but it does not have to be the case.

Truwar
2007-07-11, 10:05 AM
1. well yes you might pump your will save up, but that still doesnt mean there isnt a chance he fails the save, even with a +19 will bonus there is still a 5% chance every frenzy that he will start swinging at you.

There is also a 5% chance that no matter how good your saves are that some enemy wizard/cleric/druid spell will kill you and you can’t even toss out a rat for him to distract himself for a round to prevent that from happening. Besides, a character would probably only frenzy about once or twice an adventure and even if you only have one bag of tricks animal (or summoned creature) between the frenzier and the party that will give a second chance for a will save, thus reducing the chance of an IPBB (Intra-Party-Blood-Bath) to a mere .25% .


the big question is more, do you think your party can find a roleplaying reason for keeping someone around who cant control themself?

I can think of a pretty good RP reason: Swift Expansion followed by Psionic Lion’s Charge Followed by charging the young adult black dragon followed by frenzy followed by dead young adult black dragon followed by expenditure of a rage for channeled rage followed by a 95% chance the frenzier will gain control of him/herself again.

That may not really sound like an RP reason but when going to fight DEFINITELY hostile creatures it is nice to have someone on your side with a destructive capability roughly equivalent to an ICBM, even if there is a small chance he might lose control and attack you.