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lordmarcoos
2007-07-08, 08:10 PM
I have a player who was deadset, for no particular reason other than her personal amusement, on playing a half-orc ninja (she originally wanted an orc ninja, but I talked her down from that). She's level 2, and, on account of being late, is in a party of 3 other 3rd level characters: a warforged warblade (which, as many of you know, is much cooler than it sounds), a human artificer, and a changeling urban ranger who's not that useful in combat, but a great party face(s).

The problem is I'm worried the ninja will soon become more irrelevant than she already is. Are there good things for a 2nd-level ninja to multiclass into to make her more useful? Swordsage? Rogue? I'd like her to stay focused to some degree on being a skillmonkey, but the urban ranger is almost solely devoted to languages, knowledge skills, and social skills, so she really only needs some ranks for disable device, open lock, and maybe forgery, which opens up possiblities. Any advice?

Damionte
2007-07-08, 08:26 PM
The ninja seems ot work best when she stays a ninja. for this chaaracter in this particular party. I'd let her stay ninja, but dual class it with a cleric, or favored soul, on the way possibly to temple raider prestige class.

The party is missing a cleric.

Nothing really work with a Ninja. She's mechanically a bit mroe useful in combat than your ranger.

I can see a holy half orc ninja warrior. I don't know what her current story is. That would help me coem up with ideas. It would also help If we knew if "she" had any problem with the current character. I mean if she's having fun with it, I don't suppose it really matters what you think of the character.

Darrin
2007-07-08, 08:44 PM
Are there good things for a 2nd-level ninja to multiclass into to make her more useful? Swordsage?

I'd steer her towards ToB, and yes, Swordsage has access to most of the maneuvers that deny a target's dex bonus (Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and a little bit of Tiger Claw), thus allowing her to actually use Sudden Strike every once in a while. Pick up Adaptive Style at 3rd and she can refresh with a full-action. Unfortunately, you take another BAB hit with Swordsage... if the half-orc's Int is decent (unlikely) then suggest Warblade and cherry-pick a good Dex-denial maneuver with Martial Study, otherwise try a few levels of Crusader.

The other thing to consider is the end-all-be-all of effective Ninjahood, which is do absolutely whatever you can to get invisible and stay invisible. There's an old 3.0 PrC burried in Dragon Magazine called Orc Blademaster that gets Invisibility as a class ability, and so long as she likes Bastard Swords, is full of nice flavor. There are some other PrCs like Assassin and maybe Vigilante that might offer Invisibility through some spellcasting, but rather than dilute the character further with dips into spellcasting classes, that's probably best accomplished via a magic item, be it ring of invis, dust of disappearance, or potions/wand/rod of greater invis.

lordmarcoos
2007-07-08, 09:23 PM
Well, to answer Darrin, her character isn't too big on backstory, just an urban dwelling-eberronian half-orc who grew up on the streets. I convinced her to play her character off as more rogue than ninja, swapped out some of the asian weapon profs with more rogue ones, and decided that her ability to turn invisibile-thing (don't have books on me, forgot the name) is due to an abberant dragonmark (but didn't make her take a feat for it, and figure when she got new ki abilities I'd have her dragonmark grow into a faux lesser and greater mark). The party was on a train bound for Sharn, and will be soon heading out to Xen'drik, and she doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with being underpowered, but i figured since Xen'drik will mean that the shift rotates from urban intrigue to dungeon diving, she could use a little more beef, and thus wanted some suggestions.

Actually, while I'm on it, I was wondering what to do for the urban ranger, possibly even letting him retrain some of his urban ranger levels for regular ranger, or maybe something else (ToB would work well since he's a TWFer), or maybe even just letting him have regular tracking, free of charge, and finding some creative ways of letting him use it, since urban tracking's pretty useless when there's nothing that could be considered "urban" outside of stormreach.

I guess when I get my books back I'll check out some of the swordsage's dex-denial manuevers, but since that may be awhile still, any chance you could list me off a few good ones I could write down while I wait for the books?

And to Damionte, while it's true they need a cleric, that's really not at all the route she's going for, and the party's artificer is fine with helping out as far as healing's concerned, and since the warblade's a warforged, those repair infusions make sure at least she stays in tip top shape, and they'll just get by with potions and the like.

Damionte
2007-07-08, 09:27 PM
And to Damionte, while it's true they need a cleric, that's really not at all the route she's going for, and the party's artificer is fine with helping out as far as healing's concerned, and since the warblade's a warforged, those repair infusions make sure at least she stays in tip top shape, and they'll just get by with potions and the like.

In that case I wouldn't worry about it too much. it's only a matter of time before one of them bites it due to missing a healer. At which point someone will have to change characters to balance out the party anyway.

Darrin
2007-07-08, 10:24 PM
I guess when I get my books back I'll check out some of the swordsage's dex-denial manuevers, but since that may be awhile still, any chance you could list me off a few good ones I could write down while I wait for the books?



Hmm. Looks like I was confused, most of the maneuvers I was thinking of involve making a target flat-footed, which as all frustrated Ninja players know, isn't the same as being denied your Dex bonus. The only out-and-out maneuver that does deny Dex would be Cloak of Deception, which gives you Greater Invisibility until the end of the round. While she could pick this up with two levels of Swordsage (plus two non-Martial Adept levels), it would work a lot better if she picked up two levels of Warblade or Crusader instead and took the Martial Study feat instead, which would allow her to refresh Cloak of Deception much more often.

Another manuever, Hand of Death, has a chance to paralyze a flat-footed target, but Fort saves tend to be easy to beat. However, the Shadow Jump maneuvers (Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink), while they may not help you use Sudden Strike, they are lots of fun for ninja-types.

Draz74
2007-07-08, 10:31 PM
I second the Swordsage suggestion. In fact, it would be best if you could talk the character into re-building itself to be 100% Swordsage, though I guess a 2-level Ninja dip won't hurt the swordsage TOO much. (At least it gives Trapfinding to fill out the skill monkey role!) The orc character can still act like a "ninja" and think of itself as a ninja.

Shadow Hand maneuvers have SUCH a ninja flavor to them.

Diggorian
2007-07-08, 10:38 PM
Hmm. Looks like I was confused, most of the maneuvers I was thinking of involve making a target flat-footed, which as all frustrated Ninja players know, isn't the same as being denied your Dex bonus.

I dont understand. Being flat-footed does deny you your Dex bonus, thereby making sudden Strike an option right?

I'd go with the ninja-less swordsage myself. Regardless of whichever class she chooses as primary, I think her background should have more to it that being a streetfighter. The fluff of both classes suggest extensive training.

lordmarcoos
2007-07-09, 02:46 AM
Well, according to the SRD,

Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

I'm assuming losing your dex bonus is the same as being denied it, right? Or have I been doing it wrong? It seems the same to me.

Damionte: Secretly, I'm hoping the changeling dies to become a cleric, just because both his race and class choices, while fun in the city, isn't going to work now that they've decided they want to go to Xen'drik. Hmmm.... maybe I should ask if he wants to have his character decline to join the rest of the party in Xen'drik (with the option of him coming back one level lower should the Party ever return to Khorvaire, and he want to) and offer him the one time chance to roll up a favored soul (he likes being the party face, and a favored soul would at least give him the charisma he'd need), or maybe a Crusader. Well then, another question:

Is the Crusader an effective healer in a party where he only has to heal a ninja/maybe-swordsage-or-warblade, himself, and a human artificer(since the artificer can heal the warforged, who'd ideally be soaking a lot of the damage anyways)?

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-09, 02:54 AM
Half-orc ninja seems like a pretty cool concept, but maybe not an ideal class.

Diggorian
2007-07-09, 05:37 AM
Is the Crusader an effective healer in a party where he only has to heal a ninja/maybe-swordsage-or-warblade, himself, and a human artificer(since the artificer can heal the warforged, who'd ideally be soaking a lot of the damage anyways)?

Not really by my reckoning. Devoted Spirit has some manuevers that give weak healing only under certain conditions. Used primarily in combat, allies would likely take as much damage as you heal.

Callix
2007-07-09, 06:26 AM
Crusaders look like good healers, but 2 hp/hit isn't very much, and the healing strikes only come up once in a while. At very high levels, Strike of Righteous Vitality on a 4 round cycle can keep a party going for a long time, but until you can get the advanced healing strikes, you're not going to be healing much. Splitting the tanking, though, can be a very useful role for a Crusader, especially with all their don't-die abilities (steely resolve, furious counterstrike/Martial Spirit, Die Hard, Mettle).

Darrin
2007-07-09, 08:47 AM
I dont understand. Being flat-footed does deny you your Dex bonus, thereby making sudden Strike an option right?

I'd go with the ninja-less swordsage myself. Regardless of whichever class she chooses as primary, I think her background should have more to it that being a streetfighter. The fluff of both classes suggest extensive training.

Bleah... sorry, my brain stopped functioning. Yes, being flat-footed means no dex bonus, so Sudden Strike works just fine.

I don't have the book in front of me, but when I get ahold of it later, I'll have to go back through and find some suggestions for flat-footed maneuvers.

Sorry for the confusion.

Jayabalard
2007-07-09, 08:54 AM
The problem is I'm worried the ninja will soon become more irrelevant than she already is. Are there good things for a 2nd-level ninja to multiclass into to make her more useful? Swordsage? Rogue? I'd like her to stay focused to some degree on being a skillmonkey, but the urban ranger is almost solely devoted to languages, knowledge skills, and social skills, so she really only needs some ranks for disable device, open lock, and maybe forgery, which opens up possiblities. Any advice?

Advice:
-Talk with the player and find out what she wants.
-Don't force the player into something that doesn't fit with her concept of the character in order to make her more "relevant"
-Accept the fact that the player may not want a more optimal character and factor that into the game.
-If she is ok with being more optimal, find out what the important aspects of her character are and work to enhance those rather than shoving her into a better niche for the group.

Darrin
2007-07-09, 10:42 PM
Ok, maneuvers that render the target flat-footed (or deny a Dex bonus):

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Diamond Mind 1)
Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand 2)
Shadow Garrote (Shadow Hand 3)
Strike of the Broken Shield (Setting Sun 4)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw 4)
White Raven Strike (White Raven 4)
Ghost Blade (Shadow Hand 6)
Swooping Dragon Strike (Tiger Claw 7)
Feral Death Blow (Tiger Claw 9)

If the half-orc has a positive Int bonus, I'd recommend Warblade and pick up Martial Study at 5th or 6th level to get Cloak of Deception. For Warblade, start with Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Sudden Leap, and Wolf Fang Strike (for TWF) or Steel Wind (non-TWF). For the stance, either Punishing Stance (if she likes things getting messy) or Stance of Clarity (if she's the more dainty type).

Otherwise, take SwordSage 1 and Feat: Adaptive Style. Maneuvers:

Burning Blade (extra 1d6+IL damage)
Distracting Ember (instant flanking)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (target flat-footed)
Sudden Leap (need to charge? leap back 10 feat)
Wolf Fang Strike (Sudden Strike + Burning Blade + TWF = happy ninja)
Shadow Blade Technique (extra cold damage)

Stance: Island of Blades (the rest of the party will want her in every fight just for this)

Next level, at SwordSage 2, she can pick up Cloak of Deception and Stance of Clarity.