Has anyone ever home brewed a repeating pump action crossbow?

[poolio]

So I'm looking to make a repeating pump action crossbow (duh) and was wondering other people's thoughts on as to what the benefits of using one of these, the pluses and minuses,

What i have so far would be when taking the attack action you can make one additional attack as a bonus action, probably keep the damage die as a light crossbow at 1d6 and to load a new clip would be a bonus action, like loading a regular crossbow, the downside would be the cost (probably 250-300 gold, at least) and as far as who would make it, I'm trying to make a character around making his own weapons and whatnot to make up for poor fighting ability (another idea I'm working on is special bolts with glass heads filled with substances such as alchemist fire and acid and other possibilities (ideas for this are also more then welcome) i think I've got most figured out and I'm pretty sure my dm would go for it as long as it's pretty balanced, he likes interesting character ideas and isn't the type to kill of a character just cause it's not a "by the books" kind of guy, cause characters are often so similar that fighting can get a little dull, so anyway, what do the experts here have to say? :smallwink:

[Mellack]

Can I ask what does this get you that you cannot get just by taking the crossbow expert feat?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I've homebrewed something that had repeating pump action.... but it wasn't a crossbow.

[NNescio]

So I'm looking to make a repeating pump action crossbow (duh) and was wondering other people's thoughts on as to what the benefits of using one of these, the pluses and minuses,

What i have so far would be when taking the attack action you can make one additional attack as a bonus action, probably keep the damage die as a light crossbow at 1d6 and to load a new clip would be a bonus action, like loading a regular crossbow, the downside would be the cost (probably 250-300 gold, at least) and as far as who would make it, I'm trying to make a character around making his own weapons and whatnot to make up for poor fighting ability (another idea I'm working on is special bolts with glass heads filled with substances such as alchemist fire and acid and other possibilities (ideas for this are also more then welcome) i think I've got most figured out and I'm pretty sure my dm would go for it as long as it's pretty balanced, he likes interesting character ideas and isn't the type to kill of a character just cause it's not a "by the books" kind of guy, cause characters are often so similar that fighting can get a little dull, so anyway, what do the experts here have to say? :smallwink:

No, it isn't balanced, it's like getting a weaker version of Crossbow Expert for free.

[Quintessence]

I once homebrewed up a hand crossbow that used a clip like mechanic... But that isn't quite what you are looking for ><

[RakiReborn]

I made one as a player, changing the load property to loading (6). Requires a full Action to reload the 6 Darts when the clip is empty.

[CaptainSarathai]

I made one as a player, changing the load property to loading (6). Requires a full Action to reload the 6 Darts when the clip is empty.
Yeah, this is what my DM did when I wanted to play a "Gunslinger" from PF in 5e, but with crossbows. Originally, we did what most people did, and just didn't realize that you still need a free hand to reload with Crossbow Expertise or whatever it's called, so I just had 2 hand crossbows.
Next time around, he says I'll have to find/buy specially made crossbows. He works them out as:
Pair-of repeater hand crossbows - Price as single +1 Magic Item. Can fire 6 shots before reloading. 1 Action to reload.
-OR-
Repeating crossbow - Price as +1 Magic Item. Can fire 6 shots (light) or 4 shots (standard) before reloading, benefits from XBow feat.

You are required to take the Crossbow feat to gain a access to these weapons. He additionally ruled that the bonus shot could not benefit from the +10 from SharpShooter.

This keeps things perfectly in-line with other bows and ranged weapons which cannot pick up the bonus attack, does not invalidate the Crossbow feat, and seems to be in-line power-wise with other weapons.

[NNescio]

Yeah, this is what my DM did when I wanted to play a "Gunslinger" from PF in 5e, but with crossbows. Originally, we did what most people did, and just didn't realize that you still need a free hand to reload with Crossbow Expertise or whatever it's called, so I just had 2 hand crossbows.

Well, you didn't need the free hand, until they errata'd it. Of course, now you can just bonus attack while wielding a single crossbow per RAI according to Sage Advice (as long as you have a free hand), so it pretty much only junks crossbow + shield and crossbow + melee weapon builds.

(And dual crossbow for the flavor.)

[Herobizkit]

The repeating crossbow (chukonu in Asian-flavored games) is a recurring item from earlier editions of D&D. The weapon is basically a crossbow with a 'clip' of 5 bolts; each bolt can be loaded as a free action until the clip is empty. Its comes in both light and heavy models.


Load: As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity [or in 5e's case, takes an action to reload a full clip]

Note: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.

[Shining Wrath]

Sounds like a gnomish device to me. I'd say you get

The crossbow may fire 6 bolts without reloading
It requires a full action to reload
The damage is that of a hand crossbow (d6)
You can wield one in each hand, allowing 1 extra attack per use of the attack option over and above your normal (including feats such as Crossbow Expert)
Cost is about 500 GP each
On a critical miss roll (1 on the D20) the mechanism jams and can't be repaired except during a rest (D15 Dexterity check, need simple tools of some sort). A failed dex check to repair means you broke it, you blundering fool.

[Seruvius]

DnD 5 already has official rules for repeating crossbows. In Out of the Abyss, the derro have special rules for a hooked spear and repeating crossbows in their stat blocks. The Derro's one is equivalent to a light crossbow, but with a range of 40/160, loading property replaced with a cartridge of 6 bolts that requires an action to reload once all 6 are gone. In my campaign i added extra rules for bonus action aditional shots, as otherwise it is strictly inferior to the crossbow until one gets extra attack, and there are not many chars who will have extra attack who wont have access to martial weapons (i.e. bows).

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, you didn't need the free hand, until they errata'd it. Of course, now you can just bonus attack while wielding a single crossbow per RAI according to Sage Advice (as long as you have a free hand), so it pretty much only junks crossbow + shield and crossbow + melee weapon builds.

(And dual crossbow for the flavor.)

That's interesting. The intent of the feat was obviously to give a bonus action attack to rapier+hand crossbow builds or to let those using light or heavy crossbows to benefit from the Extra Attack ability. Now I believe everyone eventually gravitated to two hand crossbows for gunslinging, as the feat as originally written was very weird (you ignore the loading quality on crossbows, but require a loaded hand crossbow to make the bonus action attack).

Although I do like the fact that, as written, it makes it more optimal to wield a crossbow in your off hand. I think that, for coolness reasons, letting you dual-wield hand crossbows is going to be a common houserule.

Although I do like that they junked crossbow+weapon, as my Fighter 4/Cleric 1 Dragonborn could keep up with the Barbarian's output* by going rapier+hand crossbow (and I would have surpassed him if I was still in that game, once I hit extra attack).

* Lower than it should have been due to him never using Rage, but still.

Now, on the subject of repeating crossbows, the main problem is how you're drawing the bow (my character modded her handcrossbows in order to be collapsible [I'm not sure how, I was bluffing the GM as I wanted to be able to hide them under formal clothes], and at the same time could have added a magazine and a lever to draw back the bow**). Your standard light and heavy crossbows will be loaded through mechanisms which take some time as their main advantage is their power (although you can theoretically get a longbow to a similar draw it's easy to do with a crossbow), which actually means that for some characters firing once per round might be too quick, but I digress.

What I can see you ending up with would be a light crossbow stock with a replaced bow, and a clip of up to ten bolts either above or alongside it. You can theoretically either draw the bow back with a lever operated with the firing hand, which would mean a weaker bow but a theoretically faster rate of fire, or as you said pump-action which might be slower but could in theory support a larger bow, although depending on how the mechanism works this could be reversed. Now, assuming you're using a light enough bow your weapon can fire faster than those elven archers, but only in short bursts, and likely only does 1d4-1d8 damage. As there's no such thing as a 'movement action' in 5e I'd say reloading as a bonus action or standard action is fair, although I'd give it a quality that allows reloading for free if you sacrifice your move.

** I would have gone for a spring-gun over a hand crossbow, but the GM wasn't as into weaponry as I am.

[NNescio]

That's interesting. The intent of the feat was obviously to give a bonus action attack to rapier+hand crossbow builds or to let those using light or heavy crossbows to benefit from the Extra Attack ability. Now I believe everyone eventually gravitated to two hand crossbows for gunslinging, as the feat as originally written was very weird (you ignore the loading quality on crossbows, but require a loaded hand crossbow to make the bonus action attack).

Although I do like the fact that, as written, it makes it more optimal to wield a crossbow in your off hand. I think that, for coolness reasons, letting you dual-wield hand crossbows is going to be a common houserule.

Well, 5e doesn't really distinguish between main hand and off-hand unless you're TWFing (and it doesn't use the term "off-hand" either, IIRC). In any case if you're using only one hand Xbow with your other hand free I'll say that''s a "main-hand" Xbow, not an off-hand one.

In any case, dual-wielding hand Xbow is a reasonable hosuerule to make (when the character has Xbow expert), because your player is intentionally gimping himself since he can do pretty much the same thing just with one hand Xbow.



Although I do like that they junked crossbow+weapon, as my Fighter 4/Cleric 1 Dragonborn could keep up with the Barbarian's output* by going rapier+hand crossbow (and I would have surpassed him if I was still in that game, once I hit extra attack).

* Lower than it should have been due to him never using Rage, but still.

Ehhh, you had a damage-increasing feat while the Barb didn't. He could pick PAM to get a bonus attack (or be a Battlerager). If he goes GWM instead his damage output is going to exceed yours even without the bonus attack.

Optimized Hand Xbow DPR builds usually only wield one Xbow with a free hand, and have Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Archery Fighting Style.





Now, on the subject of repeating crossbows, the main problem is how you're drawing the bow (my character modded her handcrossbows in order to be collapsible [I'm not sure how, I was bluffing the GM as I wanted to be able to hide them under formal clothes], and at the same time could have added a magazine and a lever to draw back the bow**). Your standard light and heavy crossbows will be loaded through mechanisms which take some time as their main advantage is their power (although you can theoretically get a longbow to a similar draw it's easy to do with a crossbow), which actually means that for some characters firing once per round might be too quick, but I digress.

What I can see you ending up with would be a light crossbow stock with a replaced bow, and a clip of up to ten bolts either above or alongside it. You can theoretically either draw the bow back with a lever operated with the firing hand, which would mean a weaker bow but a theoretically faster rate of fire, or as you said pump-action which might be slower but could in theory support a larger bow, although depending on how the mechanism works this could be reversed. Now, assuming you're using a light enough bow your weapon can fire faster than those elven archers, but only in short bursts, and likely only does 1d4-1d8 damage. As there's no such thing as a 'movement action' in 5e I'd say reloading as a bonus action or standard action is fair, although I'd give it a quality that allows reloading for free if you sacrifice your move.

** I would have gone for a spring-gun over a hand crossbow, but the GM wasn't as into weaponry as I am.

I think repeating Xbows are fine, as they are otherwise far weaker compared to bows (without Xbow expert), so long as they're considered martial weapons. It's the free bonus action attack the OP's proposing that I'm not okay with. Game-balance wise this is usually restricted to TWF, feats, or the use of spells, and shouldn't be something you can just get from a (non-magical) weapon.

Fluff-wise I think a "pump-action" is kinda silly because that's what you use to chamber rounds in shotguns, and while I can see a similar mechanism being able to 'chamber' a bolt I don't think it can actually **** the whole thing.

You need a lever-action instead, which is similar to what actual repeating crossbows have in the real world, including the (in)famous Zhugenyu/Chukonu.

As for the spring gun, well, Discworld (the 'fantasy' novel series) had spring-gonnes in it, which are similar to what you described. Spring-loaded cylinder with a single bolt (similar to how some toy guyns work, but with a much stiffer spring), very hard to reload (its nickname is the "one-shot"), but it's highly concealable. IIRC it could also be cocked with one hand but it required a hard surface to brace against (and a lot of strength).

[Vogonjeltz]

So I'm looking to make a repeating pump action crossbow (duh) and was wondering other people's thoughts on as to what the benefits of using one of these, the pluses and minuses,

Are you envisioning it where there's a clip that bottom loads into the crossbow, pulling the pump brings the bow string back into place and pushes up the next bolt into position?

In case you're wondering, I googled this and found this:
http://www.makecrossbows.com/crossbow-building-plans/

So it seems like something a Rock Gnome Inventor could reasonably create as an alternative function of their tinkering. The drawback would be that it requires at least an hour of upkeep per day to keep it functional, and without Crossbow Expert, I'd still require them to take an action to load a new clip in. Crossbow Expert would remain valuable to avoid having half an attack at later levels (or 1/4th of an attack for a Fighter).

As to the size of the Clip? I think 5 shots would be reasonable.


Well, you didn't need the free hand, until they errata'd it. Of course, now you can just bonus attack while wielding a single crossbow per RAI according to Sage Advice (as long as you have a free hand), so it pretty much only junks crossbow + shield and crossbow + melee weapon builds.

(And dual crossbow for the flavor.)

Pre-errata the text still has the ammunition property, so it required a free hand then too. They just made it clearer for anyone casually perusing who might miss important information.


Fluff-wise I think a "pump-action" is kinda silly because that's what you use to chamber rounds in shotguns, and while I can see a similar mechanism being able to 'chamber' a bolt I don't think it can actually **** the whole thing.

I thought so too, but then I googled on the terms used and found the article listed above, which appears to have been written sometime in the 50s-early 60s based on the style of the artwork involved.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ehhh, you had a damage-increasing feat while the Barb didn't. He could pick PAM to get a bonus attack (or be a Battlerager). If he goes GWM instead his damage output is going to exceed yours even without the bonus attack.

I think the Barbarian went for a feat at level 4, I can't remember what it was. I can only remember the feats two of us took, me with Crossbow Expert and the Halfling nun with Sentinel. Also, he was a battlerager, he could have gained a bonus action attack easily if he ever bothered to rage (I knew he didn't rage and so suggested Totem Warrior [which has more features that can be used whenever], but superberserking is cooler even if you never use it).


Optimized Hand Xbow DPR builds usually only wield one Xbow with a free hand, and have Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Archery Fighting Style.

Yeah, I believe I had 14 DEX and Crossbow Expert, along with the Archery Fighting Style. Once I got a second ASI it was going to be a hard choice between Sharpshooter and +2 DEX.


I think repeating Xbows are fine, as they are otherwise far weaker compared to bows (without Xbow expert), so long as they're considered martial weapons. It's the free bonus action attack the OP's proposing that I'm not okay with. Game-balance wise this is usually restricted to TWF, feats, or the use of spells, and shouldn't be something you can just get from a (non-magical) weapon.

Oh, I agree completely here, I just wanted to go through the engineering side. Considering that I don't tend to run 5e, I prefer both more modern settings and more streamlined systems (my next game is going to be Under the Table for Fate Core, Gangsters and Arthurian myth), so I don't have much idea about balance more than 'Fighters are okay and balanced enough, but I'd rather play a Paladin or Ranger'.


Fluff-wise I think a "pump-action" is kinda silly because that's what you use to chamber rounds in shotguns, and while I can see a similar mechanism being able to 'chamber' a bolt I don't think it can actually **** the whole thing.

Depending on how it works, it could just be a way of operating a lever that you draw fairly far back. Considering you're going to need something if you don't want your clip on top of the crossbow it would need some sort of mechanical mechanism in place. I personally just don't see why you'd use one when you could have the mechanism end with a lever moved by your trigger hand, it could get your firing rate to a bolt a second or more if designed well.


You need a lever-action instead, which is similar to what actual repeating crossbows have in the real world, including the (in)famous Zhugenyu/Chukonu.

Oh, certainly, I just want to specify that a pump action mechanism can basically work as an alternative 'lever' if the system is designed for that.


As for the spring gun, well, Discworld (the 'fantasy' novel series) had spring-gonnes in it, which are similar to what you described. Spring-loaded cylinder with a single bolt (similar to how some toy guyns work, but with a much stiffer spring), very hard to reload (its nickname is the "one-shot"), but it's highly concealable. IIRC it could also be cocked with one hand but it required a hard surface to brace against (and a lot of strength).

Yes, there are problems with spring based weapons, although it's easier for me to engineer new models than with crossbows.

[clash]

I think a simple solution is to not add the bonus action attack. Just make it 6 shots before reload and 1 action to reload. Then if someone wanted to take that with the crossbow expert feat they would have what your looking for at a cost and without imbalancing anything.

[N810]

Worked for Van Helsing.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b5/00/97/b50097e65f1a93f767213713525e9aa5.jpg
Think the reload worked off of pressure vessel, that required pumping or changing along with a new bolt cartrige.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So I'm looking to make a repeating pump action crossbow (duh) and was wondering other people's thoughts on as to what the benefits of using one of these, the pluses and minuses,

What i have so far would be when taking the attack action you can make one additional attack as a bonus action, probably keep the damage die as a light crossbow at 1d6 and to load a new clip would be a bonus action, like loading a regular crossbow, the downside would be the cost (probably 250-300 gold, at least) and as far as who would make it, I'm trying to make a character around making his own weapons and whatnot to make up for poor fighting ability (another idea I'm working on is special bolts with glass heads filled with substances such as alchemist fire and acid and other possibilities (ideas for this are also more then welcome) i think I've got most figured out and I'm pretty sure my dm would go for it as long as it's pretty balanced, he likes interesting character ideas and isn't the type to kill of a character just cause it's not a "by the books" kind of guy, cause characters are often so similar that fighting can get a little dull, so anyway, what do the experts here have to say? :smallwink:
So 1d6 damage, make an extra attack as a bonus action? It's a Scimitar of Speed, minus the +2 bonus-- so (5-50,000 minus 500-5,000) gold, or A Whole Damn ****load. But yeah, that's exceptionally powerful.

[Kurt Kurageous]

[QUOTE=Vogonjeltz;21201868]
In case you're wondering, I googled this and found this:
http://www.makecrossbows.com/crossbow-building-plans/
[QUOTE]

At the end of the article it says it has a 30# pull, hardly a super-lethal d6 out to 160'.

Do what you want, nerf how you want. Give up over half your range. Drop the damage die to a d4. Lose your DEX to damage modifier. Take an action to reload. Jam to uselessness on a 1. Make all shots versus one target. All good. It's still really really powerful when it works.

My rock gnome civilization was wiped out after they lost a war to the orc horde even though they had repeating mediums re-cocked by steam power inside land ships.