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SilverClawShift
2007-07-08, 08:30 PM
I'm curious to get external input on this topic, and this is a friendly forum.

A few weeks ago (and I'm still mulling this over, yes, I'm obsessive I know) my gaming group started up a campaign about one world threatening plot or another... and I picked warforged as my race. No big deal, we play with 'exotic' content as a matter of course, we like to keep things interesting.

Here's where an (admittedly mild) issue comes up.

I have a habit of sketching portraits for character sheets when I'm not doing much else. This particular time, I decided that I didn't want to be a big clunky warforged character, and I asked my DM if I could play a warforged with a more 'female' body shape. I sketched something out, I didn't go to any obscene lengths on it, I was just a little sleeker and a hair curvier. I didn't even have a chest to speak of.

And he heartily objected.

Our DM lets us get away with absolute murder mind you, he considers it fun to come up with new ways to make us pay for being oddities. This is the same Dm who let me play a warforged DRAGON DISCIPLE for crying out loud. One of the other players even said "How do you have draconic ancestry if you were built in a forge?", and the fact that I had organic dragonic material in my physical construction was enough justification to the DM.

That's why I was so confused he'd be opposed to a feminized warforge. Here he has a chance to make me a freak among the freaks, and he's not doing it because it's not in step with warforged 'identical construction' nature.

I argued that, if I were a warforged with a female personality, trying to fit into the society of other races, I'd be eager to have my body re-shaped to be as feminine as possible. Sticking a dress on a barrel chest doesn't really work the same way as actually being sleek.

One player sided with me, but three others agreed with the DM, so I backed down on it, we like to function as a group.

But I'm still a little peeved. Is it that immpossible that a female warforged would want (and could find a means) to resemble the females of other races? Or even that a sleeker warforged might be built as an experiment in alternate body types (maybe even by a lonely forger :smallyuk:).

So I'd like to know what other people think about this. How do you feel about warforged who are shaped 'just a bit different'?

*******************************

As a bonus, I thought I'd mention something awesome my DM threw at us during a horror campaign.

We were fighting a way down through an inverted tower built suspended between two canyon walls (Effectively a dungeon, sure, but knowing it was literallly built as an upside down tower made it creepier :-p). It was a necromancers tower, as the campaign was undead heavy (undead heavy enough that it was becoming a global issue on a previously 'normal' world) and we were looking for answers. Turned out not be the answer we were looking for though.

Anyway.

We get to this pitch black level that was one big room full of vision obscuring pillars. A lot of scrap metal, broken stone, ruined stuff. We hear this horrible metal-on-metal stone-on-stone scraping noise echoing through the place. So we're tagging behind our rogue, who's doing the rogue-radar listen check routine, trapsing cautiously around looking for the source of this noise.

Finally, the scraping hits a louder pitch, and we see a humanoid form shambleing out from behind a pillar. It's stone and metal and wood and what looks like compacted soil in with the wood, some kind of all-too-human construct. The DM lets us in on the fact that it's a warforged.

But this warforged is rusted. Pitted. Scarred and rotting, chipped, run down. It's slow, steady, and completely unresponsive. And we realize what this thing is.

An undead warforged :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Sure, it's homebrew, but I was immpressed with the way it was presented :-p.
Once we 'vanquished' it, we checked it, and the stone of its construction still had traces of names and birth/death dates, epitaphs... This warforged was built with broken tombstones and grave soil. :smallbiggrin:

Ah well.

So, yeah. Female warforged, yea or nay?

Lord_Kimboat
2007-07-08, 08:38 PM
I'm not sure I agree with all of the things your DM lets you get away with but I see no problem with a female personality warforged (FPW)! In some of the Ebberon material I've read it actually states that there are FPWs - Keith Baker (who created the setting) even has these FPWs in his novels!!

I do dispute though, that with the amount of FPWs that your PC would be a freak.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-08, 08:38 PM
Gender itself is an alien concept to constructs. Although some take on gender roles for various reasons, they aren't actually of one gender or the other. To that end its horribly illogical to change your form to look more of a certain gender. Warforged were designed for war, not for social reasons. If you wanted a sleeker form, you should go with that on the basis of stealthiness or some other specific mission, but not for any kind of gender reason.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-08, 08:59 PM
I thought one of the major play-points of warforged was that they often took a great deal of exploratory interest in their 'humanity'. They were built as weapons, sure, but they have more personhood than could possibly be necessary for that role, and deal with this in a variety of ways.

I'd say why not? Sure, you're a bit of a freak, but that's par for the course in adventuring parties.

horseboy
2007-07-08, 09:03 PM
So I'd like to know what other people think about this. How do you feel about warforged who are shaped 'just a bit different'?

"Minder! She's, she's....."
"Anatomically correct?"
Hey, if it worked for Ed Greenwood, why not?

Aquillion
2007-07-08, 09:37 PM
Apparently, Keith Baker (http://www.bossythecow.com/femaleforged.htm) disagrees with your DM. But, then again, what does Baker know about Eberron?

I vaguely recall seeing female-build warforged in the art for one of the Eberron books, too.

And IIRC per the RAW, most warforged identify as a gender--it's only the most hardline 'construct pride' ones that don't. They were designed to be humanlike, which included giving them a gender when they were created. Many have symbols on their face that approximate human facial features, even though they don't need them; they're humanoid, they have the capacity for emotions and independant action, etc. They're supposed to be as human as possible in most ways; this would include giving male-type warforged a generally male shape, and female-type warforged a generally female one.

Nota Biene
2007-07-08, 10:10 PM
I'll only say that I don't know much about Eberron, but from what I understand, it's supposed to be about creating a logical setting in which you can build and add in pretty much anything you want. If little pieces of a dragon can be included in a warforged's construction, allowing a dragon disciple warforged (and hey, why not) it hardly seems unreasonable to imagine some creator, somewhere, deciding to model a warforged on a female form, and the subsequent construct "identifying" as female.

In addition, people who are anatomically male identify as female in the real world. It seems to me that it would be even easier for a warforged constructed to resemble a male identifying as female for some reason, and without actual sexual organs, who could rationally dispute her decision?

In short, as always, rule 0 trumps all. But your DM is, in my opinion, passing up an interesting character concept for no real reason whatsoever.

Kalirren
2007-07-08, 10:16 PM
Look, just take enough ranks in Craft (repair Warforged) and say "I do it." Warforged may initially have been created for war, but when they try find a place in society and try to understand how it works, they're -going- to run up against the prevalent gender roles and stereotypes, if there are any. It may not be a majority opinion for warlike warforged to end up identifying as female, but it's far, far more improbable that none do.

Seriously, I think your DM is an outlier in this respect - if only to reiterate what most people have said already, most of us fall in line with the Baker-man.

Dausuul
2007-07-08, 10:21 PM
So, yeah. Female warforged, yea or nay?

Yea. I see no reason why a warforged--which is after all a free-willed, sapient being--might not decide to identify with one particular gender and try to reshape itself to match that gender. Could make for a very interesting character.

StickMan
2007-07-08, 10:24 PM
A large number of warforged are sleek, and slim. I don't see any problem unless the picture screams female. If you could post the pic it would help.

Jasdoif
2007-07-08, 10:30 PM
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the existence of female transformers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Transformers) yet.

Anyway, I don't see why a female-looking warforged would be inconceivable, or even a problem (except perhaps in some odd social encounters). As has been mentioned already, even if it's unlikely to happen, it's even less likely to never happen.

TheThan
2007-07-08, 10:45 PM
Suppose your character was created specifically to look female. I can easily see a very wealthy individual spending a lot of money on a personal entourage of fem-forged bodyguards/escorts/assassins/whatever.

Background time:



(insert name) was a highly successful wizard/ Psion and artificer. He was greatly skilled in the creation of warforged and his work was of the highest quality and in great demand. (Insert name) Had one true passion in his life, his wife (insert your character’s name here) his passion was bordering on obsession. One day (incert your character’s name here) was struck by an incurable disease. The pair spends nearly all their wealth on finding a cure. But nothing seemed to work; not even the magic of the clerics. (Insert name here), fearing the loss of his wife, decided to use the last of his money to create a warforged body for his wife’s soul to inhabit. He spent the last few years of his wife’s life dedicated to this project. He developed the magic necessary to transport someone’s conciseness into another object. When (you) finally died. He immediately conducted the experiment and created you. However the local mage’s guild/sheriff/church/etc caught wind of (insert names’) daring and decided to put an end to his unnatural act. You’re home was stormed the very night the process took place. However (insert name) finished the process before he was killed by the enraged mob. However you, in your warforged body miraculously survived and now roam the world.

Personally I wouldn’t mind at all. Sounds cool to me.

Lemur
2007-07-08, 10:45 PM
I don't see any problem with it personally. Hell, the Japanese and their obsession with making female robots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actroid) would be enough alone to convince me, and that's not even touching on the numerous girl robots/cyborgs that have prominent roles in their media :smalltongue: Give you're DM a volume of Battle Angel Alita or something and see if he changes his mind (won't work if he's not susceptible to comic books).

Dervag
2007-07-08, 11:12 PM
And, as the original post suggested, there's always the possibility that somewhere out there is a lonely artificer with a Pygmalion complex who wants to build warforged that identify as female.

Ranis
2007-07-08, 11:14 PM
I'd go with it. It sounds cool, it sounds fun, and playing a Warforged means you get to play a construct with a personality, so why not a female personality? All D&D books are written with "her" and "she" instead of "him" and "he." Is that a hint, or just subliminal messaging to help make women more welcome into D&D?

Tallis
2007-07-08, 11:21 PM
Ultimately it's up to your DM if there are female bodied warforged in his world.
That said, unless he has some specific plot point that precludes them, I can't see any reason to disallow them. If there end up being warforged in my world females will certainly be allowed.

TheOOB
2007-07-08, 11:25 PM
I would disagree that a warforged could ever be female, but they could be feminine. A warforged could acquire many feminine personality traits by being around females more then males, or simply out of preference, but in the long run warforged lack gender and can never be female(or male for that matter), they can only express personality traits common among one gender.

As for body design, a female shaped warforge could exist, but it would only be due to aftermarket modification, or a bored warforged creator. Warforged are designed for efficiency as weapons, and a male chassis tends to be stronger and more stable, thus giving the warforged an edge in combat, theres no real reason to make a combat machine shaped like a female.

Roog
2007-07-08, 11:29 PM
Look, just take enough ranks in Craft (repair Warforged) and say "I do it."

You don't even need to do that - just save up for a sex change.

If the DM's attitude is representative of societies attitude, then you have an interesting corespondance with the RL eqivalent.

RTGoodman
2007-07-09, 12:25 AM
Well, if your DM has the ECS (which I'm guessing he does, running an Eberron game), then he should check the mini-adventure in the back of the book. I'm fairly certain (even though I don't own the book) that one of the NPCs you have to fight is a female-personality Warforged. I would think that's some pretty convincing evidence that you can be a "female" (or at least, feminine) Warforged.

Also, I'm not sure what class you're playing (is the Dragon Disciple that people have mentioned the character we're discussing?), but if you're looking for something that's sleek (and that some might consider more "feminine") check out MMIII. There's an alternative called a Warforged Scout which is Small size and has all other Warforged traits (though I think it has terrible racial ability modifiers - something like +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha or something like that). So if you're looking at Rogue or something else similar, that could work.

Alternatively, if you'd really like to pursue femininity as a Warforged, you could look at the Reforged PrC (I think it's in the Player's Guide to Eberron or something like that), which is basically for Warforged who want to become human. At the last level, I think your type changes and you have to pick a gender (though I could be wrong - I haven't read any Eberron stuff in months and months).

Skyserpent
2007-07-09, 12:38 AM
Might I suggest the Warforged Scout? A similar race that has a much "Sleeker" build. I mean, it may not be exactly what you're looking for, butI think that might be a bit easier to argue for a thinner less bulky looking 'forged.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-09, 12:42 AM
Or you could be the product of a mad wizard's search for a pleasurebot the perfect wife.

horseboy
2007-07-09, 12:46 AM
I'd go with it. It sounds cool, it sounds fun, and playing a Warforged means you get to play a construct with a personality, so why not a female personality? All D&D books are written with "her" and "she" instead of "him" and "he." Is that a hint, or just subliminal messaging to help make women more welcome into D&D?

Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.

TheOOB
2007-07-09, 12:49 AM
Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.

It's a PR trick to make gaming more appealing to females, it's quite easy to use non gender specific pronouns in the English language.

Skyserpent
2007-07-09, 12:50 AM
Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.


Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

Gaelbert
2007-07-09, 12:59 AM
On the Eberron forums, this topic is as notorious as healing stances in the Mournland and ice cream. There's a photo somewhere on WotC of a warforged who is definitely "curvy."

horseboy
2007-07-09, 01:19 AM
Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

If I remember right, there weren't penalties, but a lower cap to strength (Think it was 16). Course that was WAY back. If I remember, they weren't there in D&D, but they put them in for AD&D1.

stainboy
2007-07-09, 01:21 AM
What does your DM object to - a warforged who thinks of itself as female, or a warforged who looks female?

The setting definitely includes warforged who think of themselves as female. They're in the core book. Warforged also don't have "identical construction." Even if you don't take the art in the books as canon, there are plenty of feats that involve changing a warforged's construction, there's a Craft specialization for modifying warforged, and it only makes sense that House Cannith would have improved upon the design and experimented with new designs over the course of the war.

They made warforged out of ironwood, just because some House Cannith artificer thought it would be a good idea to make warforged druids. That to me seems a lot stranger than making a warforged with a feminine profile.

All that aside, I'll admit I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept myself. The warforged art in the Eberron books makes them look more male than female - square jaws, broad shoulders, no curves. I imagine their voices sounding deep, hollow, and metallic. So I think of pretty much all warforged as, if not male, than not specifically female.

Rad
2007-07-09, 02:51 AM
Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

OD&D had no rules-wise distinction among genders. AD&D1 had caps on ability scores for non-human races and they all had lower maximums for strength for females of all races (except the half-orc). The caps on all the other stats were identical for males and females.
Moreover Fighters with 18 STR were entitled an extra roll of a d% for "exceptional strength" (so you had a strength of, say, 18/67) giving you more bonuses. This was really one of their class features and the cap prevented any non human female from getting it, so you saw very few female fighters.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-09, 08:03 AM
The thing I have to ask is "Why would this Warforged do this?"

Warforged, even though they were designed to be as human-like as possible, are still inherently logical constructs. As such, they would realize the need for armor that is functional rather than based on appearances. I'd certainly say Warforged or Warforged Juggernauts are not going to have a feminine body because it makes no logical sense when you abandon armor for looks. The only way I could see that working would be taking the PrC from ECS that allows Warforged to lose the construct subtype.

A Warforged Scout, however, has no such armor and thus would have no logical need not to change his/her body shape to match his/her personality. Though that has been mentioned in this thread already.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-09, 08:13 AM
A Warforged Scout, however, has no such armor and thus would have no logical need not to change his/her body shape to match his/her personality. Though that has been mentioned in this thread already.

Warforged aren't robots, they're androids. The ECS says flat out they develop gender identity.

Having a body that doesn't match your gender identity can be really unpleasant--ask any transgendered person.

Khantalas
2007-07-09, 08:19 AM
Actually, shaping a warforged to be female is a bad idea. Because I once saw an artwork that had a female-shaped warforged, and it was, well, less then pleasing.

Although it is probably the lack of hair. Yes, hair. Nothing to do with the fact that it was disproportionate and apparently made out of emerald. :smalltongue:

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 08:22 AM
I still think you need to go back further to explain your form....

Start with the builder. Put your head into that person and think about some role for your construct to fill. What role would a slender curvy warforged fill? Probably NOT a heavy lifting 'forged... instead more a dexterous one. Build up the hips servos and other mechanisms to improve sudden movements. But keep the legs light to keep down on weight. The torso should be slender to allow for serpentine movements. Now you're running out of space, so you have to build out the upper torso a bit to fit your basic plumbing in.

At this point you have a newborn warforged with no intent on it being female. As it gets its training/programming some strangers mention how feminine it looks. This filters into the programming as a virus and the now adolescent warforged starts to think in a feminine way...

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-09, 08:22 AM
Actually, shaping a warforged to be female is a bad idea. Because I once saw an artwork that had a female-shaped warforged, and it was, well, less then pleasing.

Although it is probably the lack of hair. Yes, hair. Nothing to do with the fact that it was disproportionate and apparently made out of emerald. :smalltongue:

Because... the purpose of beign female is to be visually pleasing? Come on.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 08:24 AM
Because... the purpose of beign female is to be visually pleasing? Come on.

No, the purpose of HAVING gender in a construct is to express the features of that gender.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-07-09, 08:32 AM
I still think you need to go back further to explain your form....

Start with the builder. Put your head into that person and think about some role for your construct to fill. What role would a slender curvy warforged fill?

Hey Joe, what about if the builder was a woman? Maybe she just designed it using her personality as a basic model? Could be that while all the 'men folk' were out fighting the nasty war, she was stuck building the warforged (like women in the factories of WWII)? Or, she was designed to protect children and made to appear less threatening?

Funkyodor
2007-07-09, 08:39 AM
I'm all for it. Typically individuals create forms in their own image, so a female artificer creating warforged that emulate the feminine form sounds correct. It would also be amusing if they did not act feminine and acted just like normal warforged.

Person_Man
2007-07-09, 08:42 AM
D&D depends almost entirely upon consensual reality. If you want the sun to revolve around the earth, it does, as long as you can convince the DM that it does. I see no problem with a feminine (or neuter) warforged, as long as it doesn't prevent some other player from having a good time. (For example, I won't let player A be a Blackguard that killed everyone who worships Pelor if Player B wants to play a Cleric of Pelor).

Also, there's clearly a precedent:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Arcee-dreamwave.jpg

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 09:14 AM
Hey Joe, what about if the builder was a woman? Maybe she just designed it using her personality as a basic model? Could be that while all the 'men folk' were out fighting the nasty war, she was stuck building the warforged (like women in the factories of WWII)? Or, she was designed to protect children and made to appear less threatening?

Actually, I think female builders would tend to go the other direction. Either entirely non-gender specific (equality of sexes) or go super masculine to outdo men.

Warforged are not designed to protect (especially not children). They are designed for war. You go out and do battle.

However, in an all female factory, I could see a generic warforged emulating the only people it knows... females. But that doesn't really address the form issue, which was the topic of the original post.

Alex Kidd
2007-07-09, 09:19 AM
I still think you need to go back further to explain your form....

Start with the builder. Put your head into that person and think about some role for your construct to fill. What role would a slender curvy warforged fill? Probably NOT a heavy lifting 'forged... instead more a dexterous one. Build up the hips servos and other mechanisms to improve sudden movements. But keep the legs light to keep down on weight. The torso should be slender to allow for serpentine movements. Now you're running out of space, so you have to build out the upper torso a bit to fit your basic plumbing in.

At this point you have a newborn warforged with no intent on it being female. As it gets its training/programming some strangers mention how feminine it looks. This filters into the programming as a virus and the now adolescent warforged starts to think in a feminine way...

Actually I'm pretty sure the female form is BETTER at handling heavy work, the male form is better at quick sudden bursts of extreme strength, the female form is better at sustained heavy work. The reason this doesn't generally show in humans is a mix of society and sexual dimorphism. These would not be a problem for warforged, just make it the size of it's male counterparts, but curvy. Then just say it was made for like daylong lifting work or constant patrols or something.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-09, 09:19 AM
Warforged aren't robots, they're androids. The ECS says flat out they develop gender identity.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, they develop to identify with one gender over another. Do they develop that gender? No. Why? Because they are not living beings. They are, as a whole, built to be logical soldiers. This is their purpose. They are built to be human-like, not human. To a warforged built during the war, there is no logical reason to have their body mirror their personality, as such, theres no reason to do that.

Scouts(built during or after the war) are armorless. Thus, they would be able to match their gender physically in one way or another.

Further: Your remark about trans-gender people is entirely baseless in this discussion. Warforged, unlike humans, have no choice in identification of male versus female. They simply exist as Personality: Male or Personality: Female. They do not choose one or the other, simply because it's hardwired into them.

As such, for a Warforged to choose to 'represent' it's gender in any way, shape, or form is ridiculous because a Warforged doesn't need physical reassurance of being either gender. It just references the personality hard-wired into it's brain and is immediately reassured that it is female or male.

For sake of argument: Would a Warforged choose to represent the male anatomy? Why?

Tengu
2007-07-09, 09:30 AM
Is there any difference between gender identity and gender? Because I fail to see it. Body parts are sex, not gender.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-09, 09:31 AM
Is there any difference between gender identity and gender? Because I fail to see it. Body parts are sex, not gender.

Gender is a physical, inescapable concept.

Gender identity is an entirely mental exercise.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-07-09, 09:32 AM
As such, for a Warforged to choose to 'represent' it's gender in any way, shape, or form is ridiculous because a Warforged doesn't need physical reassurance of being either gender. It just references the personality hard-wired into it's brain and is immediately reassured that it is female or male.

For sake of argument: Would a Warforged choose to represent the male anatomy? Why?

Because he wants to.

FFS, man, it's common enough for Warforged to want to be totally human(oid) that they made a PrC out of it. I'm sure there are plenty of Warforged out there who are happy as warforged but wish they had a gender.

Besides, ask any androgynous person: it really pisses someone off if you can't tell whether they're male or female. If I were a warforged, I'd shape me some anatomy just so people wouldn't have to ask or constantly get it wrong.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 09:35 AM
For sake of argument: Would a Warforged choose to represent the male anatomy? Why?
Actually, genetically speaking, female is the default form of people. Male is the mutated form.


I invite you all to read The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Leguin. It has an interesting take on androgyny and how exposure to a specific gender affects someone that can take either role.

Tengu
2007-07-09, 09:37 AM
Gender is a physical, inescapable concept.

Gender identity is an entirely mental exercise.

No. Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 09:42 AM
No. Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

And here's where most arguments fall apart...

Nobody has agreed on terms. Thus both are right and both are wrong, because they're speaking different languages.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-09, 09:44 AM
No. Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

Let me rephrase then.


Actually, genetically speaking, female is the default form of people. Male is the mutated form.

Exactly. So how would that affect the mentality of a Warforged?


Because he wants to.

FFS, man, it's common enough for Warforged to want to be totally human(oid) that they made a PrC out of it.

Theres also the Warforged Juggernaut. Further, saying "because he wants to" is an argument for either side.

Roog
2007-07-09, 09:49 AM
Yes, they develop to identify with one gender over another. Do they develop that gender? No. Why? Because they are not living beings. They are, as a whole, built to be logical soldiers. This is their purpose. They are built to be human-like, not human. To a warforged built during the war, there is no logical reason to have their body mirror their personality, as such, theres no reason to do that.

They are not Vulcans. They do not need a logical reason for every action.


Further: Your remark about trans-gender people is entirely baseless in this discussion. Warforged, unlike humans, have no choice in identification of male versus female. They simply exist as Personality: Male or Personality: Female. They do not choose one or the other, simply because it's hardwired into them.

As such, for a Warforged to choose to 'represent' it's gender in any way, shape, or form is ridiculous because a Warforged doesn't need physical reassurance of being either gender. It just references the personality hard-wired into it's brain and is immediately reassured that it is female or male.

For sake of argument: Would a Warforged choose to represent the male anatomy? Why?

Just read the following...

Warforged were created without gender—a living construct with no need to reproduce or form a gender identity. Their only purpose was to fight for their owners and fall on the battlefield if necessary in pursuit of larger goals. It was something of a surprise, then, when warforged began adopting gender identities on their own, without direction from any of their owners.

While some warforged are comfortable with thinking of themselves as genderless beings, many have instead adopted a male or female personality to which they adhere in their daily lives. Those who attempt to fit into the societies of the races around them might choose clothing that traditionally applies to their gender of choice and pursue socially approved occupations for their chosen genders.

Its not too large a step from "choose clothing that traditionally applies to their gender of choice" to bodymods, when you can change your body the way a warforged does.

Tengu
2007-07-09, 09:52 AM
The existence of both Warforged that want to become humans, and Warforged that want to become less human and more like tools of war shows that the race has a wide variety of personalities among them. And it's officially stated that they Warforged have a gender. What's strange about them adjusting their form to match it?

Citizen Joe
2007-07-09, 09:54 AM
Its not too large a step from "choose clothing that traditionally applies to their gender of choice" to bodymods, when you can change your body the way a warforged does.
That's like saying its not too big a step to go from female impersonators to transgender operations. It's actually THE biggest step.

fireinthedust
2007-07-09, 10:04 AM
Before this degenerates too much into message-board-forbidden discussions of gender identiy (well, maybe not forbidden, but certainly... well, not d20 system!) I think the question is a silly one.

The DM here is obviously just being picky. It's not a rules question, or a gaming precident question, but a personal taste question. Chances are he's got an opinion on how you decorate your armor or what your magical items *look like* rather than what they do. It's a bit selfish, really, considering it's a cosmetic rather than cosmelogical change you're asking for: it's not like you're re-defining how magic works, or saying *all* warforged have such bodies; it's more along the lines of "can I have the symbol of the noble house that buight me emblazoned on my armor?" "no, you can't because I don't like how that would look".

There are female warforged. One in particular in the Dreaming Dark trilogy. She's rare, and built as a stealthy scout-type with hidden blades. The male-personality warforged is confused, never having seen any warforged with a female form before, and while not attracted to her in an organic-reproduction sense they have this weird attraction to one another (on an intellectual level).

Considering there are warforged titans, gorillas, warforged druids and clerics, and all sorts of equipment enhancments where arms are replaced for rotating sawblade hands, it's a bit... silly/petty/picky to say a warforged can have a particular curve to her hips or (tastefully done) lumps on her chest. Especially adventurer-level 'forged with unique designs, rather than rank-and-file soldiers (your clerics, assisins, rangers, psionicists rather than your average warrior 1 or ftr2 battle fodder models).

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-09, 10:14 AM
What's strange about them adjusting their form to match it?

It's not about strange, it's about pointless. Why do that when there's no point in it?

Roog: By that basis, a female personality warforged in drow society would always be a cleric.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-09, 10:27 AM
If she identifies herself as female (or feminine, if you prefer), it's perfectly reasonable that she might want others to identify her as such too without needing forcible correction. A few hours in the forge, and suddenly a lot less people are off-handedly identifying her as 'he' and 'it'. Pointless?

Roog
2007-07-09, 10:32 AM
Roog: By that basis, a female personality warforged in drow society would always be a cleric.

Well, based on the quote (with the word "might"), it would be more correct to say "A female personality warforged in drow society would likely be a cleric."

Arbitrarity
2007-07-09, 10:36 AM
Warforged druid makes my brain hurt.

And half-dragon warforged.

I wanna play a celestial warforged. How about a half-illithid warforged, or a Pseudonatural warforged...


Ooooh... psuedonatural warfoged druid!

Piccamo
2007-07-09, 10:49 AM
Warforged aren't robots, they're androids. The ECS says flat out they develop gender identity.

Having a body that doesn't match your gender identity can be really unpleasant--ask any transgendered person.

I just did. It says you're wrong.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-07-09, 12:26 PM
The way I see it, the "Machines made to fight are better of as Male" argumen might be a good point in the real world, but D&D isn't the real world. In D&D Female warriors kick just as much ass as male warriors do, so isn't it likely that someone made a warforged in image of legendary female heroes?
Besides unless there is a clear rule dictating it can't be done, the player should always be able to decide flavour aspect of it's character.

fireinthedust
2007-07-09, 12:35 PM
Warforged druid makes my brain hurt.

And half-dragon warforged.

I wanna play a celestial warforged. How about a half-illithid warforged, or a Pseudonatural warforged...


Ooooh... psuedonatural warfoged druid!

The premise for half-dragon isn't too off: forged with a magical flamethrower? Draconic leather inside the system, metallic dragon scales smelted down to form the chassis?

Celestial: Hmm... same deal, if you take holy weapons and a holy avenger sword, melt them down and attach either blessed copper-gold wings for the flight (or those taken from radiant idols kicked out of the Syrania/air plane (y'know, the one attached to SHarn?)).

Half-illithid: Okay, given the tadpole bit vs. metal heads and no brain, this one is rather hard. However, if warforged druids can be entirely made out of wood with no metal components for druids then it's not impossible to imagine something sort of along these lines but with flesh golem bits. Hm. Either that or mechanical apparatus' (apparatai?) to mimic tentacles, and a psi-crystal part that delivers the psionic cone effect. Probably more like this, and they wouldn't be a half-illithid as much as a weird design (like a warforged titan isn't really a titan, and warforged themselves only look human).
HOWEVER if the DM is willing to allow them no metal or wooden parts, they could be like brain golems! or flesh golems, but using the warforged rules (swapping in and out the inorganic/organic bits)

Pseudonatural warforged druid: So easy, once you have a warforged druid already. They're made of wood, an organic material that can still grow, right? So if they fight those blight-druids, or creatures from xoriat, it's not inconceavable for the evvect to work on their organic parts.

Madmal
2007-07-09, 12:38 PM
in resume: Warforged could be built with templates, but they probably won't be capable of adquiring them.

Jasdoif
2007-07-09, 12:39 PM
Half-illithid: Okay, given the tadpole bit vs. metal heads and no brain, this one is rather hard.I believe they do have brains.


Can a warforged have its brain extracted by a mind flayer?

Yes. His brain may not look like the illithid’s normal meal, but a warforged is a living creature and thus is just as vulnerable to that dreaded attack as any human or dwarf. (That said, the Sage expects that warforged brain likely isn’t a commonly appreciated meal among mind flayers. Probably an acquired taste at best.) The same is true of other effects that might not apply to constructs (such as a vorpal weapon, which doesn’t have much effect against most constructs), unless otherwise stated in the living construct subtype.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 12:39 PM
@fireinthedust: Wow, awesome. I would think, though, that dissecting fallen angels (or destroying their weapons) so that you can graft bits of them onto your automaton might be slightly less than holy.

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-09, 01:26 PM
Someone already said the Ebberron creator has stated there are female-shape warforged. Thus, I see no reason for you to not be able to play one.

Dervag
2007-07-09, 02:15 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure the female form is BETTER at handling heavy work, the male form is better at quick sudden bursts of extreme strength, the female form is better at sustained heavy work.To paraphrase Pratchett, entire agrarian economies have been based on the lifting power of peasant grandmothers.


Exactly. So how would that affect the mentality of a Warforged?Most likely not, because unless you know a lot about ontogeny and genetics, you're not going to have the slightest idea that this is in fact the case. Moreover, since warforged are pieces of machinery the genetics of sex determination in humans have very, very little to do with them or the personalities they develop.


It's not about strange, it's about pointless. Why do that when there's no point in it?Because they're sentient beings who sometimes do a thing because they feel it appropriate, regardless of whether or not there is an objective reason to do or not do it?


I just did. It says you're wrong.In other words, the person you asked said that it cannot be unpleasant, or only that it is not always unpleasant? There's a difference.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-07-09, 02:45 PM
Because they're sentient beings who sometimes do a thing because they feel it appropriate, regardless of whether or not there is an objective reason to do or not do it?
QFT; also, just because YOU don't see a point doesn't mean THEY don't.


In other words, the person you asked said that it cannot be unpleasant, or only that it is not always unpleasant? There's a difference.
It'd have to be the latter, because my transgender friends Max and Lexi (who are female and male, respectively) hate being what they were born.

Look, humans get sex changes. Warforged can get body-mods.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-09, 03:14 PM
The thing I have to ask is "Why would this Warforged do this?"

Because it wanted to. The same reason people get tattoos, peircings, gender re-assignment surgery. The same reason they dress all in black or dye their hair blonde, or get suntans.

Because they thought it would look good. Because they thought it suited them better. Because they felt like it.
People fly to Thailand and spend thousands of dollars to look more like the gender they feel like they are. For some warforged, saying they feel female might be enough.

If I were a warforged who felt as if they were a female, I would strive to look like one. I would want to at least be female enough in appearance that people who met me assumed I was a girl. Anyone who cared beyond the fact that my face was made of stone, and that my race used to be considered property, that is.

And yeah, the problem isn't with me BEING a female warforged. They exist, I've played them before even, that's not a topic that can even be debated. The warforged race identifies as a gender more often than they don't, to varying degrees of forcefullness.

I actually brought this up again today my DM and re-argued it, and he said he actually agrees with me now, and that he hadn't looked into the warforged enough the first time I asked.
I'm not planning on playing a warforged anytime soon, but it's nice to know my option is opened up. :smallbiggrin:

On the topic of gender in gaming, sexism doesn't seem too bad, from what I can tell, but there's defiantely chunks of it here or there that are pretty ridiculous.
That said, when my gaming group was first starting out, we actually played with a houserule that males of most races got +2 STR and -2 DEX, with females getting -2 STR and +2 DEX.
Argueably, this is more or less realistic. Females just don't exert physical power the way males do, but tend to be a touch more limber and agile. From a realism point, it works.

But actually playing with it?

It was a worthless rule. Ultimately it just meant that anyone making a warrior character was going to pick a male 9 times out of 10, and anyone making a rogue or spellcaster or some such was going to pick a female 9 times out of 10, regardless.
It contributed nothing to the game in terms of enjoyment, it added little to nothing in terms of roleplaying, all it added was a 'real world' factor where everyone with an axe was a male, and everyone with a robe was female. It took too much away for what it added, and really made the game no more fun than just saying "Most of the army is males" would have.

Options are friendlier than restrictions, more often than not, especially on personal issues like gender views.

Runolfr
2007-07-09, 03:22 PM
Gender itself is an alien concept to constructs. Although some take on gender roles for various reasons, they aren't actually of one gender or the other. To that end its horribly illogical to change your form to look more of a certain gender.

I see no reason why the builders of Warforged would prefer one gender appearance over another. If they have any expectation that the constructs might need to conduct under-cover operations of some sort, it makes some sense that they would make some that looked and behaved in a more feminine manner to make it easier to disguise them as female if the situation suited them. A builder might choose to make feminine Warforged for personal aesthetic reasons, as well.

I really don't see any grounds for saying you can't have a "female" Warforged.

fireinthedust
2007-07-09, 03:42 PM
@fireinthedust: Wow, awesome. I would think, though, that dissecting fallen angels (or destroying their weapons) so that you can graft bits of them onto your automaton might be slightly less than holy.


Okay, interesting point. HOWEVER not inconceivable!
On a quest into the radient realm a team of Silver Flame paladins and clerics confront a solar who'd been corrupted by the lords of dust: though with the help of the other angels they cast this monstrosity out of the realm (which escaped, its wings getting shorn off), the warriors were slain. As a memorial their armor and weapons were smelted down so that their quest could live on (one was the intellegent Holy Avenger sword, whose intellect survived and became the Warforged's personality, crafted in a female body?), and given the wings the fallen solar had forsaken so that their good deads could be remembered (or something).

An insane Silver Flame Cleric-artificer (with ties to Merrix D'cannith's hidden forge) was impressed by the powerful flight of celestials; capturing several, she formed their weapons into a warforged body (mechanical perfection?) topping it off with their severed wings. The new warforged, a LG paladin who hunts lycanthropes and the lords of dust, has no idea her (female body modeled after her creator) origen is so tainted; what other creations did her maker create? What of the captured Outsiders? Did any of the weapons and armor hide a secret in their creation (intellegent item? hidden artifact map inside maleable sword?)?

horseboy
2007-07-09, 03:46 PM
Look, humans get sex changes. Warforged can get body-mods.

Body mods that fire missiles. Oop, sorry, got lost in a Tranzor Z momment.

Body mods for warforged. Wow, talk about pimp my ride.

Sorry, I'm going to stop now.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 03:50 PM
*snip*
Ah, now that would be holy.

An insane Silver Flame Cleric-artificer (with ties to Merrix D'cannith's hidden forge) was impressed by the powerful flight of celestials; capturing several, she formed their weapons into a warforged body (mechanical perfection?) topping it off with their severed wings. The new warforged, a LG paladin who hunts lycanthropes and the lords of dust, has no idea her (female body modeled after her creator) origin is so tainted; what other creations did her maker create? What of the captured Outsiders? Did any of the weapons and armor hide a secret in their creation (intelligent item? hidden artifact map inside malleable sword?)?
I need to play this character now.

fireinthedust
2007-07-09, 03:54 PM
yeah, I have that effect on people.

Nice Avatar, btw!!!

I just ended a game I was running, and was wondering about getting folks to play M&M 2nd ed. but set in Faerun with FR/Eberron characters (ie: more freeform than d20 rules; warforged covered in "chest and hip expansions" and other silly things like that).

Callix
2007-07-09, 04:06 PM
Gender itself is an alien concept to constructs. Although some take on gender roles for various reasons, they aren't actually of one gender or the other. To that end its horribly illogical to change your form to look more of a certain gender.

Warforged. Alignment: Usually Lawful Neutral. *Usually*. Nothing says every warforged is Spock. The followers of the Lord of Blades have a pretty fanatical zeal. Fanaticism is illogical. Surely calm, logically convinced agents would be more efficient?

My point is that even if warforged aren't really gendered, they can do things because they want to, not because it was the logical thing to do. Find someone with Craft (Armorsmithing), and it'd be no harder than adapting a suit of full plate from male to female.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 12:51 AM
Gogo Pygmallion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_%28mythology%29)!

Seriously, there is nothing new under the sun. Petra from Ultima VII(Part 2): The Serpent Isle is another gynoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynoid). The Outer Limits(new series) had several in one particular thread of related stories.

As it stands now, anatomically correct "dolls" are looking more and more human. Another decade and they could probably even be animated by mechanics.

So no, your GM is possibly either uncomfortable, or sexist. Or he's a closet mechanophile.:smallwink:

horseboy
2007-07-10, 01:15 AM
Gogo Pygmallion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_%28mythology%29)!

Seriously, there is nothing new under the sun. Petra from Ultima VII(Part 2): The Serpent Isle is another gynoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynoid). The Outer Limits(new series) had several in one particular thread of related stories.

As it stands now, anatomically correct "dolls" are looking more and more human. Another decade and they could probably even be animated by mechanics.

So no, your GM is possibly either uncomfortable, or sexist. Or he's a closet mechanophile.:smallwink:

Man, now I've got "Electric Barbarella" stuck in my head. Thanks a lot! :smallfurious:

mikeejimbo
2007-07-10, 07:17 AM
A large number of warforged are sleek, and slim. I don't see any problem unless the picture screams female. If you could post the pic it would help.

Dirty man, that one is. :smallwink: