Breaking the New Ranger

[PeteNutButter]

Like many of us I'm excited for the new ranger they made, but before they ever consider making anything like that AL legal it is our job to ruin it for everyone and show how busted it is.

I see the OP lights going off when I read that Stalker.

Underdark Scout
"At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. On
your first turn during combat, you gain a +10
bonus to your speed, and if you use the Attack
action, you can make one additional attack..."
-Emphasis mine

An extra attack on the first round of combat, which you get adv on if you go before them?! A crossbow expert, sharpshooting variant human at level 5 will be doing 4 attacks(FOUR!) on round one, likely with advantage since he also gets advantage on initiative dealing 1d6+13 per attack for an average damage of 66 or 70 against favored enemy. That's level 5.

Let's take it a bit further, since the class grants those bonuses that clearly synergizes with assassin, throw in some of those. Let's say Stalker 5/Assassin 8. If the ranger can manage surprise, which is a bit easier with that darkvision debuff, then he could probably also transfer a hunters mark onto his victim pre-combat. Then he opens up with 4 attacks for (4d6+15) x4 + 8d6 sneak attack 144 avg damage.

Best would probably be Stalker 4/Fighter 11/Assassin 5 giving 5 attacks on your surprised foe for (4d6+15)x5 +4d6 pushing it to 159. Or make it melee for Stalker 4/Assassin 3/Fighter BM 11/War Cleric(or use PAM) Half Orc with GWM for (3d12+2d6+15)x8(action surge) +10d10(maneuvers) + 4d6(sneak) average damage 401.5.

I'm assuming in the example action surge doesn't trigger Underdark Scout again, but RAW I think it would. That'd make the average damage 443 for your surprise.

Bottom Line: I think the ability could be balanced if it came at a later level. I didn't even start to look at the beast yet to break it. What else about this is busted? What are your thoughts on action surge working with it? If it does work a fighter 11/monk/stalker could do 10 (or 11 if hasted) attacks on round one... because the rest of the party didn't want to act anyways.

[Specter]

All of thia first turn stuff is great for Assassins, but Assassins will rely on the DM most of the time to work. So it's hardly gamebreaking.

But now Ranger multi is practically mandatory for Assassins: bonus attack, Extra Attack, extra skill, Fighting Style, Pass Without Trace, Hunter's Mark... too much to pass.

[MrStabby]

All of thia first turn stuff is great for Assassins, but Assassins will rely on the DM most of the time to work. So it's hardly gamebreaking.

But now Ranger multi is practically mandatory for Assassins: bonus attack, Extra Attack, extra skill, Fighting Style, Pass Without Trace, Hunter's Mark... too much to pass.

For automatic criticals - yes. DM has to be on board for that. For advantage on attack rolls there is less need.

Ranger 2, champion for extended crit range an extra attack (5), assassin 3 is going to be a pretty potent midgame character. With hunters mark and 5 attacks that round all at advantage you are looking like a solid nova build. best bit is that it is more than just nova - it has a solid presence all through the fight as well.

[Finieous]

Stalker 4/Assassin 3/Fighter BM 11/War Cleric(or use PAM) Half Orc with GWM

Do people really see characters like this in their games? I don't. In the game I DM (now at 10th level), I have zero multiclass characters. In the the campaign where I'm a player, we have one Fighter 1/Bladesinger 5. In the previous campaign (18th level), there were no multiclass characters.

If you do see triple- and quadruple-classed characters, I assume the players are optimizers and they're getting what they want out of the game? If so, what exactly is "broken"?

[MrStabby]

Do people really see characters like this in their games? I don't. In the game I DM (now at 10th level), I have zero multiclass characters. In the the campaign where I'm a player, we have one Fighter 1/Bladesinger 5. In the previous campaign (18th level), there were no multiclass characters.

If you do see triple- and quadruple-classed characters, I assume the players are optimizers and they're getting what they want out of the game? If so, what exactly is "broken"?

Up to three classes, sure I see them occasionally. Actually, as often as two class multi-class now I think of it. Not a firm count but probably about 70% single classed, 15% 2 classed and 15% 3 classed characters.

[Sir cryosin]

I don't think the stalker adilitys is to op it is about the same as the hunters Colossus slayer, and a pet attack. I might be wrong but from what I didn't read about the new beast pet has it own turn and don't take your attack. If you look the stalker only gets that once a combat were the other 2 abilitys are every turn.

[Sir cryosin]

Like many of us I'm excited for the new ranger they made, but before they ever consider making anything like that AL legal it is our job to ruin it for everyone and show how busted it is.

I see the OP lights going off when I read that Stalker.

Underdark Scout
"At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. On
your first turn during combat, you gain a +10
bonus to your speed, and if you use the Attack
action, you can make one additional attack..."
-Emphasis mine

An extra attack on the first round of combat, which you get adv on if you go before them?! A crossbow expert, sharpshooting variant human at level 5 will be doing 4 attacks(FOUR!) on round one, likely with advantage since he also gets advantage on initiative dealing 1d6+13 per attack for an average damage of 66 or 70 against favored enemy. That's level 5.

Let's take it a bit further, since the class grants those bonuses that clearly synergizes with assassin, throw in some of those. Let's say Stalker 5/Assassin 8. If the ranger can manage surprise, which is a bit easier with that darkvision debuff, then he could probably also transfer a hunters mark onto his victim pre-combat. Then he opens up with 4 attacks for (4d6+15) x4 + 8d6 sneak attack 144 avg damage.

Best would probably be Stalker 4/Fighter 11/Assassin 5 giving 5 attacks on your surprised foe for (4d6+15)x5 +4d6 pushing it to 159. Or make it melee for Stalker 4/Assassin 3/Fighter BM 11/War Cleric(or use PAM) Half Orc with GWM for (3d12+2d6+15)x8(action surge) +10d10(maneuvers) + 4d6(sneak) average damage 401.5.

I'm assuming in the example action surge doesn't trigger Underdark Scout again, but RAW I think it would. That'd make the average damage 443 for your surprise.

Bottom Line: I think the ability could be balanced if it came at a later level. I didn't even start to look at the beast yet to break it. What else about this is busted? What are your thoughts on action surge working with it? If it does work a fighter 11/monk/stalker could do 10 (or 11 if hasted) attacks on round one... because the rest of the party didn't want to act anyways.

Your wrong the base ranger lost its extra attack it was put into hunters archtype.

[PeteNutButter]

Ignoring Assassin:

A BM fighter 11/stalker 3 can do 8(9 with bonus action) attacks with action surge, (3d6+15)x9 +5d10 for over 260 (with fighting style). That's at level 14!

A Thief 17/Stalker 3 could make 6 attacks for (2d6+15)x6 +18d6 for 237.

A bladelock 12/fighter 4/Stalker 4 could make 7 attacks with PAM doing (1d10+20)x6 +1d4+20+4d8 for 193.5.

A paladin 12/fighter 4/Stalker 4 could do the same for (1d10+1d8+15)x6 +4d8(moves) + 1d4+15+1d8 + 28d8(smites) for 307.

An ele monk 10/stalker 3/ fighter 2 could make 8 attacks for (2d6+1d10[fire snake]+5)x8 for 140.

My point is it practically becomes a must have for characters that do the attack action.

[PeteNutButter]

Your wrong the base ranger lost its extra attack it was put into hunters archtype.

It's also on the stalker.


I don't think the stalker adilitys is to op it is about the same as the hunters Colossus slayer, and a pet attack. I might be wrong but from what I didn't read about the new beast pet has it own turn and don't take your attack. If you look the stalker only gets that once a combat were the other 2 abilitys are every turn.

It's an extra attack on the most important round of combat, potentially preventing foes from even getting a turn. It's a nova type ability that has zero cost, and works every time. If the average combat is 3 to 4 rounds it outpaces the 3-4d8 of colossus slayer with the advantage of being front loaded.

[gfishfunk]

Try to put together some actual stats, race, and equipment for these hypotheticals. The Wis + Dex buy-in will reduce effectiveness a little.

[PeteNutButter]

Try to put together some actual stats, race, and equipment for these hypotheticals. The Wis + Dex buy-in will reduce effectiveness a little.

Human Variant 10, 16, 16, 8, 14, 8

Grab xbow expert, use 4th level ASI on SS. pew pew. Works for rogue, ranger, and fighter

The MAD ones will have to drop to a 12 con though, something like 16, 13, 12, 8, 13, 13 for paladin/warlock.

A Stalker 5/Fighter 2 for melee could go: 16, 14, 14, 8, 13, 8. Start with GWM, pick up +2 str. Make 6 attacks on round one with action surge and underdark scout for (2d6+14)x6 most likely with advantage, for 126 or 147 if you get your bonus action attack in the likely event you either kill something or get a crit. Or he could just do hunter's mark for that 147 damage. That is at level 7. How is that not OP?

[Xetheral]

Do people really see characters like this in their games? I don't. In the game I DM (now at 10th level), I have zero multiclass characters. In the the campaign where I'm a player, we have one Fighter 1/Bladesinger 5. In the previous campaign (18th level), there were no multiclass characters.

If you do see triple- and quadruple-classed characters, I assume the players are optimizers and they're getting what they want out of the game? If so, what exactly is "broken"?

In the game I DM, at 5th level, there is one character with three classes (barbarian/druid/rogue), two with two classes (druid/paladin, fighter/rogue), and four single-classed. None of the players are focused on optimization (and the one who comes closest plays a single-classed PHB hunter ranger, ironically enough).

Then again, I actively encourage multiclassing at my table, so that certainly skews my results.

[mephnick]

That is at level 7. How is that not OP?

Isn't the problem there Variant Human? Variant human taking one of the strong feats at first level will always be better than any other combination. It's a badly designed race.

[Finieous]

I do like the idea of an "underdark scout" without darkvision. :smallbiggrin:

[PeteNutButter]

Isn't the problem there Variant Human? Variant human taking one of the strong feats at first level will always be better than any other combination. It's a badly designed race.

Without the race you'd just have 1 less damage per hit and 1 less to hit.

If they make this AL legal it'll be my next character, and you will see it everywhere.

[Pichu]

If you truly want to, you could go: Fighter 2/Stalker 6/Assassin 3 Variant Human (Dual Wielder). Stats: 10, 16, 14, 12, 14, 8. Use your ABI for +2 Dex and get the TWF Fighting Style.

Cast Hunter's Mark on Greater Favored Target, then surprise round. Use your Action to use a Rapier and then same for a Bonus Action. Action Surge for another Attack. This come up to: 12d8(Rapiers)+12d6(Hunter's Mark)+2d6(Sneak Attack)+24(+4 Dex)+24(Greater Favored Target). This comes up to 74 minimum, 228 maximum, and 137 average at 11th level.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I do like the idea of an "underdark scout" without darkvision. :smallbiggrin:

It's a good thing the Deep Stalker gets it, then, isn't it?

[Finieous]

It's a good thing the Deep Stalker gets it, then, isn't it?

Totally missed that. But no, that's much less amusing. :(

[R.Shackleford]

What's funny is when people think damage, of any magnitude, breaks the game.

When you are a one trick pony, and the DM knows this, you aren't breaking the game.

[PeteNutButter]

What's funny is when people think damage, of any magnitude, breaks the game.

When you are a one trick pony, and the DM knows this, you aren't breaking the game.

What if that one trick you do is just do significantly more damage than your teammates? It might not break the game but it sure upsets the balance.

[Finieous]

What if that one trick you do is just do significantly more damage than your teammates? It might not break the game but it sure upsets the balance.

Only if:
(1) All problems can be solved by the efficient application of damage
(2) All characters are built on that same trick, but only one is good at it
(3) Enemies are incapable of effective threat assessment and response

[gfishfunk]

What's funny is when people think damage, of any magnitude, breaks the game.

When you are a one trick pony, and the DM knows this, you aren't breaking the game.

Anything that requires a specific DM response to re-balance the game / all encounters is considered game-breaking.

This might qualify, but I am not yet convinced. I am inclined to think that it is unbalanced as of now, though. Probably not enough to warrant a response in my own games unless someone ever builds for this specific purpose.

[Finieous]

Anything that requires a specific DM response to re-balance the game / all encounters is considered game-breaking.

The passive voice is tripping me up. Considered by whom?

[gfishfunk]

The passive voice is tripping me up. Considered by whom?

Passive people. :smallamused:

[MrStabby]

The passive voice is tripping me up. Considered by whom?

Well I would you know, guess the author. Failing that the DM in question.

[rudy]

The deep stalker stuff has been around unearthed arcana for a while, now. I'm not sure why people are zeroing in on it now. The fighter/assassin/deep stalker build has in fact been posted about on these boards before.

That being said, the most unbalanced change I see in the new ranger is advantage on initiative at level 1; that and the favored enemy make Ranger, in my view, far too good of a 1/2 dip.

The build I'd aim for is probably:

Rogue (Assassin) 7 / Fighter (Eldritch Warrior) 9 / Ranger (Hunter OR Deep Stalker) 4 at high levels. That's effective casting level of 5th, so third level slots. Which is why I'd take the 9th level of fighter.

Plenty of feats to round you out with maxed dexterity, Alert and Sharpshooter, incredibly effective first round, while still remaining competitive in the later rounds with a weapon cantrip + sneak attack.

In my view, if you're able to get off your four/five attacks with advantage and automatic criticals, you'll already have made the battle much easier to the point where six attacks would be overkill. On the other hand, if you *rely* on that first round combination, you may be in a tight spot where it doesn't work out.

Build order:
Fighter 1 > Ranger 1 > Rogue 3 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 5 > Ranger 4 > Fighter 9 > Rogue 7

[R.Shackleford]

Anything that requires a specific DM response to re-balance the game / all encounters is considered game-breaking.

This might qualify, but I am not yet convinced. I am inclined to think that it is unbalanced as of now, though. Probably not enough to warrant a response in my own games unless someone ever builds for this specific purpose.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing (though my cat is partially to blame).

So, anything that requires DM response to Reba lancet the encounters is brokenot?

My god, 5e must be as broken as 3e!

Had a player who liked to use Web, I had to readjust encounters to account for this! Omg! Broken!

Dude, that is the most ridiculous definition of broken ice ever heard.

[Finieous]

Well I would you know, guess the author. Failing that the DM in question.

I don't think he meant to write "I consider game-breaking anything that requires me to re-balance the game/all encounters." He wrote "Anything that requires a specific DM..." so he seemed to be making a broader claim.

In any case, if you read the encounter design philosophy linked in his signature, he states explicitly that he does this kind of re-balancing at least somewhat regularly -- when three players show up instead of four or five, for example -- so presumably he wasn't referring to himself at all. I gather his encounter design guidelines are meant to provide robust games that aren't broken.

[R.Shackleford]

Anything that requires a specific DM response to re-balance the game / all encounters is considered game-breaking.

This might qualify, but I am not yet convinced. I am inclined to think that it is unbalanced as of now, though. Probably not enough to warrant a response in my own games unless someone ever builds for this specific purpose.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing (though my cat is partially to blame).

So, anything that requires DM response to rebalnce the encounters is broken?

My god, 5e must be as broken as 3e!

Had a player who liked to use Web, I had to readjust encounters to account for this! Omg! Broken!

Dude, that is the most ridiculous definition of broken I've ever heard.

[Specter]

Anything that requires a specific DM response to re-balance the game / all encounters is considered game-breaking.

This might qualify, but I am not yet convinced. I am inclined to think that it is unbalanced as of now, though. Probably not enough to warrant a response in my own games unless someone ever builds for this specific purpose.

This isn't the case at all. By picking Assassin, you're going only after surprise (since you already have advantage against those who didn't act through ranger). If you look at most published adventure content for 5e, you'll see that the chances for the party to surprise foes are very rare. I don't even remember seeing any in Curse of Strahd, for instance. The DM doesn't need to remodel his game by fear of this build.

And even if it wasn't rare, after wasting surprise, Action Surge and the first turn, this "gamebreaking" build would just be another normal guy. Unbalanced at most, as you said.

[PeteNutButter]

This isn't the case at all. By picking Assassin, you're going only after surprise (since you already have advantage against those who didn't act through ranger). If you look at most published adventure content for 5e, you'll see that the chances for the party to surprise foes are very rare. I don't even remember seeing any in Curse of Strahd, for instance. The DM doesn't need to remodel his game by fear of this build.

And even if it wasn't rare, after wasting surprise, Action Surge and the first turn, this "gamebreaking" build would just be another normal guy. Unbalanced at most, as you said.

I don't want to derail the discussion because I used assassin in a few of my example builds. Several of the others are without it. The Ranger 5/fighter 2 is not a "one trick pony." He is fully as capable as normal ranger, just that he makes 6 or 7 attacks the first round of combat, once per short rest. It is not a niche build. He may not have advantage, because he may not always win initiative (even with advantage), but his damage output on round one is just too strong. Every fight has a round one, and in those fights he has an average damage of 147 on round 1.

Let's Look at CR 7 creatures: Stone Giant 126 hp, dead; Young Black Dragon 127 hp, dead, etc
Let's try CR 9: Fire Giant 162 hp, oh look if you don't roll well your team might get to act and kill it before it every gets a turn...

There is a lot of randomness of course, and you can't ensure a hit even with advantage, especially against the high AC targets like dragons. Even if you account for that there is a high chance that this will blow anything out of the water before it can even act, or at least reduce them to so few hit points that the combat will end in another round. And the Niche part is just having action surge up for full effect, and rolling initiative.

[gfishfunk]

I almost fell out of my chair laughing (though my cat is partially to blame).

So, anything that requires DM response to rebalnce the encounters is broken?

My god, 5e must be as broken as 3e!

Had a player who liked to use Web, I had to readjust encounters to account for this! Omg! Broken!

Dude, that is the most ridiculous definition of broken I've ever heard.

I am glad to bring humor to the world. Yes, my definition was far too broad.

As I stated earlier, however, I am undecided that this is game breaking, but I do think it is unbalanced.


This isn't the case at all. By picking Assassin, you're going only after surprise (since you already have advantage against those who didn't act through ranger). If you look at most published adventure content for 5e, you'll see that the chances for the party to surprise foes are very rare. I don't even remember seeing any in Curse of Strahd, for instance. The DM doesn't need to remodel his game by fear of this build.

And even if it wasn't rare, after wasting surprise, Action Surge and the first turn, this "gamebreaking" build would just be another normal guy. Unbalanced at most, as you said.

I'm not sure if it were gamebreaking, but dropping 2 or 3 mobs (potentially 1/2 to 1/3 of the encounter) can certainly unbalance that encounter. However (and this is the counterpoint that should be made) the action surge only works once per day and most encounters on a 6-8 combat encounter schedule will be much, much more subdued.

[RSP]

Action Surge is per short rest or long rest, so it's not just a once a day ability.

[Specter]

Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

But as I said, if you're building an Assassin you might as well be building a ranger, and if you're building a stalker you might as well go Assassin. Ass 11/Ranger (Stalker) 5/Battlemaster 4 seems absurdly nova to me.

[Sir cryosin]

Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

But as I said, if you're building an Assassin you might as well be building a ranger, and if you're building a stalker you might as well go Assassin. Ass 11/Ranger (Stalker) 5/Battlemaster 4 seems absurdly nova to me.

You can all ready do everything in that build buy switching the ranger lvs of war cleric and rest in fighter.

[PeteNutButter]

You can all ready do everything in that build buy switching the ranger lvs of war cleric and rest in fighter.

Yeah the optimal build would have fighter 11, stalker 3 and a bonus action attack, for 9 attacks on round one, surprise not needed.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'm usually disinclined from commenting on UA material, since it is often not too-well tested. In my game, I only allow WOTC- published material. That being said, it does look like there's a significant chance that this ranger revision will be "officially" published in the not-too-distant future.

My take: it's all about balance, as anything else in 5e. Is the build combo OP? I don't think so. Firstly, and as with any MCing, you're either losing out on advanced levels (and more importantly, progression along the way) in one class or the other. Secondly, you can't rely on getting a surprise round every fight. In fact, odds are the majority of combats WON'T start with a surprise round.

Besides, I expect this will get tinkered with some more prior to (re-)publication.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm usually disinclined from commenting on UA material, since it is often not too-well tested. In my game, I only allow WOTC- published material. That being said, it does look like there's a significant chance that this ranger revision will be "officially" published in the not-too-distant future.

My take: it's all about balance, as anything else in 5e. Is the build combo OP? I don't think so. Firstly, and as with any MCing, you're either losing out on advanced levels (and more importantly, progression along the way) in one class or the other. Secondly, you can't rely on getting a surprise round every fight. In fact, odds are the majority of combats WON'T start with a surprise round.

Besides, I expect this will get tinkered with some more prior to (re-)publication.

Read my post above... SURPRISE NOT NEEDED... 9 attacks on round one, people. SEVEN attacks on round one at level 7. That's one attack per level. If you need two hands or an abacus to count your attacks before level 10 you just might be OP.

What is required to pull this off? Rolling initiative and having action surge up (short rest recharge). I'm pointing this out in hopes that it gets fixed before ever seeing real publication.

[Acanous]

Could someone please detail where these attacks are each coming from? In some of these builds I'm thinking that you're using the bonus action attack twice but I can't parse it without them being sourced.

[Eladain]

I may be wrong here, but from my interpretation of his first post, "I'm assuming in the example action surge doesn't trigger Underdark Scout again, but RAW I think it would." he's counting 2 triggers of Underdark Scout's extra extra on rd 1.

So when he says 7 attacks on round 1 at level 7 (5 deep stalker/2 fighter) - Attack action (2), Crossbow expert (1), Deepstalker(1), Action Surge (2), Deepstalker via 2nd attack action from action surge (1).

[Acanous]

Oh ok. That explains the missing attack

[PeteNutButter]

I may be wrong here, but from my interpretation of his first post, "I'm assuming in the example action surge doesn't trigger Underdark Scout again, but RAW I think it would." he's counting 2 triggers of Underdark Scout's extra extra on rd 1.

So when he says 7 attacks on round 1 at level 7 (5 deep stalker/2 fighter) - Attack action (2), Crossbow expert (1), Deepstalker(1), Action Surge (2), Deepstalker via 2nd attack action from action surge (1).

That is correct, RAW currently.

"On your first turn during combat, you gain a +10
bonus to your speed, and if you use the Attack
action, you can make one additional attack."

You are making two attack actions via action surge RAW triggering this twice. If a then b. It does not say only once, or anything like that.

[Phoenix042]

"On your first turn during combat, you gain a +10
bonus to your speed, and if you use the Attack
action, you can make one additional attack."

You are making two attack actions via action surge RAW triggering this twice.

No, actually.

Look carefully at the wording for the "Extra Attack" class feature in the PHB. It specifically uses the word "Whenever" in the trigger condition. Here, the word is "if."

Huge difference. As written, this implies that whether you take the attack action once or 3 times (don't ask me how), this feature grants you one extra attack on your first turn during combat, total.

It helps that this is also obviously the intended interpretation, but isn't critical to the conversation. "if" is not the same as "each time" or "whenever."

[PeteNutButter]

No, actually.

Look carefully at the wording for the "Extra Attack" class feature in the PHB. It specifically uses the word "Whenever" in the trigger condition. Here, the word is "if."

Huge difference. As written, this implies that whether you take the attack action once or 3 times (don't ask me how), this feature grants you one extra attack on your first turn during combat, total.

It helps that this is also obviously the intended interpretation, but isn't critical to the conversation. "if" is not the same as "each time" or "whenever."

All I can say is I hope you are right, but RAW currently it is very open to debate.

[Theodoxus]

It's UA - the dark stalker's been out forever. We have one in a game I'm playing in. It's definitely very strong in the first round. The player (a newbie to 5E, but adept with PF) immediately decided on grabbing assassin as soon as he hit 5th level. The revised DS is even stronger, given the base revised ranger...

Too strong, IMO - this needs additional feedback and refinement. There's already plenty of threads on how to rebalance the ranger. I have a player contemplating playing it tonight in a game I'm running. I already said the Natural Explorer benefits only work in wilderness, and the Beast Conclave HD boost only works on Ranger levels. He was ok with those nerfs.

I do think it's a little OP to take the 7th level ability of barbarian and give it to rangers at 1st... Stepping on toes much? I'd rather the two 'wilderness' fighters have less in common, rather than more.

ETA:
Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

Heh, I used that tactic against my players. If the paladin hadn't been out of the room when it went down, it would have been a TPK. They were level 6, facing a doppleganger party. That kind of nova might not be considered gamebreaking when it's against monsters... but a couple players were calling shenanigans when used against them.

[Xetheral]

Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

With action surge you can cast two fireballs. Or you could use quicken spell to cast a quick fireball and then action surge for two firebolts. But there's no way to cast two fireballs and a firebolt due to the limitation on bonus action spells: if you cast one, all other spells you cast that turn must be cantrips. Action surge doesn't let you bypass that limitation.

[Sigreid]

What if that one trick you do is just do significantly more damage than your teammates? It might not break the game but it sure upsets the balance.

Not really. Some of us will, upon seeing that the party can deal enough damage, build characters to primarily do other things the party needs. If you're a little angry damage god, then I don't have to worry as much about my ability to dish it out.

[Specter]

Yeah, forgot about the Quickened Spell limitation. But ok, two Fireballs at first round, then maybe Scorching Rays coupled with Firebolt in the subsequent three rounds. That's all at level 8. Add in Draconic CHA bonus to damage and go insane.

This seems like a derailment, but it just goes to show that I fear this one much more than OP's, because it can target lots of people. And both of them have their flaws (mind control, people showing up later, etc.) that prevent me from saying they're OP.

[Sigreid]

With action surge you can cast two fireballs. Or you could use quicken spell to cast a quick fireball and then action surge for two firebolts. But there's no way to cast two fireballs and a firebolt due to the limitation on bonus action spells: if you cast one, all other spells you cast that turn must be cantrips. Action surge doesn't let you bypass that limitation.

I thought it was RAW that no matter what you can't cast 2 attack spells of level 1 or higher in the same round? I believe they spelled that out, but I'm afb.

[Eladain]

Best would probably be Stalker 4/Fighter 11/Assassin 5 giving 5 attacks on your surprised foe for (4d6+15)x5 +4d6 pushing it to 159. Or make it melee for Stalker 4/Assassin 3/Fighter BM 11/War Cleric(or use PAM) Half Orc with GWM for (3d12+2d6+15)x8(action surge) +10d10(maneuvers) + 4d6(sneak) average damage 401.5.


Quick question, and forgive me if I'm wrong here. The first example doesn't include the potential action surge so that would actually be 8 attacks instead of 5 I believe. Attack action (3), Action Surge (3), Crossbow expert (1), Deep Stalker (1)

On the melee example if you're using a Polearm or heavy weapon you won't get the sneak attack dice, correct?

[Laughingdagger]

Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

But as I said, if you're building an Assassin you might as well be building a ranger, and if you're building a stalker you might as well go Assassin. Ass 11/Ranger (Stalker) 5/Battlemaster 4 seems absurdly nova to me.

Even with action surge, under the rules of spellcasting you may only cast one non-cantrip spell per turn regardless of action economy.

[Specter]

Even with action surge, under the rules of spellcasting you may only cast one non-cantrip spell per turn regardless of action economy.

That's been dealt with already.

[Xetheral]

I thought it was RAW that no matter what you can't cast 2 attack spells of level 1 or higher in the same round? I believe they spelled that out, but I'm afb.


Even with action surge, under the rules of spellcasting you may only cast one non-cantrip spell per turn regardless of action economy.

I don't believe this to be true. So long as you don't cast a bonus action spell, you can use Action Surge to cast two leveled spells. You can even cast a Counterspell on the same turn using your reaction.

It's only if you cast a bonus action spell that limitations come into play. Then you can't cast a leveled spell at all in the same turn, even if the bonus action spell was itself a cantrip.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't believe this to be true. So long as you don't cast a bonus action spell, you can use Action Surge to cast two leveled spells. You can even cast a Counterspell on the same turn using your reaction.

It's only if you cast a bonus action spell that limitations come into play. Then you can't cast a leveled spell at all in the same turn, even if the bonus action spell was itself a cantrip.

Xethral is correct here. Action surge allows two leveled spells. Read the rules carefully. They apply to bonus action casting. So you could potentially cast two fireballs then quicken a firebolt.

[Coyote81]

I don't know if this helps in breaking the rangers, but a BM Ranger with a panther has a great combo at 11 when he gets Storm of Claw and Fangs. It moves at least 20ft straight towards a group of enemies, take the Storm of claw and fangs action, hitting all enemies with the claw attack, triggering the Pounce ability, even enemy that fails the DC12 Str check take a bite attack as well. Throw in an Enlarge spell or growth potion and every attack adds an extra 1d4 damage as well, can potentially hit 5 targets if they are lined up in a horseshoe. With a +2 damage bonus against favored targets (potentially +4) this is rather painful.

With the spells/potion you can even ride a pet that gives +8 to stealth checks starting at lvl 3

[Xetheral]

Xethral is correct here. Action surge allows two leveled spells. Read the rules carefully. They apply to bonus action casting. So you could potentially cast two fireballs then quicken a firebolt.

That's what you can't do....

A quickened firebolt is a bonus action spell, so if you cast one you can't cast ANY leveled spells that turn. So with action surge you can cast two fireballs, but only if you don't also cast a quickened firebolt.

[PeteNutButter]

That's what you can't do....

A quickened firebolt is a bonus action spell, so if you cast one you can't cast ANY leveled spells that turn. So with action surge you can cast two fireballs, but only if you don't also cast a quickened firebolt.

Yeah I guess you have to just avoid the bonus action spell altogether... evil bonus action spells are what taint your good spell slinging economy.

[Klorox]

Also, it's important to note that many other builds are good for nova. Sorcerer X/Fighter 2, for instance, can be dropping two Fireballs and a Firebolt at multiple targets, potentially wasting the encounter in one turn. But I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking.

But as I said, if you're building an Assassin you might as well be building a ranger, and if you're building a stalker you might as well go Assassin. Ass 11/Ranger (Stalker) 5/Battlemaster 4 seems absurdly nova to me.

I'm definitely going to play an ass stalker one day, but I might be best off making him a bard. 😂👍

[Corran]

It's a good thing the Deep Stalker gets it, then, isn't it?


Totally missed that. But no, that's much less amusing. :(
I think we can expect a lot of vuman stalkers by granting them darkvision of equal range to that of the darkvision races, ie 90', drows excluded (like if the vuman needed more reasons to be picked). Most of them also taking SS at level 1. I also think that we can expect half of those stalkers to dip into assassin too... though I dont mind it since there is some thematic overlap (assuming that the numbers are toned down a bit as to not be ridiculously high).

[Foxydono]

I may be wrong here, but from my interpretation of his first post, "I'm assuming in the example action surge doesn't trigger Underdark Scout again, but RAW I think it would." he's counting 2 triggers of Underdark Scout's extra extra on rd 1.

So when he says 7 attacks on round 1 at level 7 (5 deep stalker/2 fighter) - Attack action (2), Crossbow expert (1), Deepstalker(1), Action Surge (2), Deepstalker via 2nd attack action from action surge (1).

Sorry for digging up an 'old' thread. I still do not understand how all these extra attacks work.

The way I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong): a 5th level fighter gets 2 attacks, he also gets action surge which says: "On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action". The way I read this is that you can only take 'one' additional action during your turn. So that makes 2 normal attacks + 1 action surge attack. Furthermore, you have the Deep Stalker ability: if you use an attack option during combat on your first turn during combat, you can make 'one' additional attack. This could be interpreted as: if you have multiple attacks you can use this ability multiple times, because on every time you attack you use the attack option. This could perhaps also count for action surge if you use your additional action as an attack.

So the way I read (on your first turn if the other creature has not acted yet) it you get: 1st fighter attack -> triggers deep stalker attack -> 2nd fighter attack -> tiggers deep stalker attack -> action surge -> triggers deep stalker attack -> crossbow expert -> triggers deep stalker attack. This would account for 8 attacks?

In the quoted post it says two action surge attacks? I don't understand this. Anyway can someone please explain me:
- How many times you can use action surge (assuming you are not a level 17 fighter)
- How many times you can use the Deep Stalker extra attack

Please explain why you think it is this way RAW and what you think it should be RAI.

[PeteNutButter]

Sorry for digging up an 'old' thread. I still do not understand how all these extra attacks work.

The way I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong): a 5th level fighter gets 2 attacks, he also gets action surge which says: "On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action". The way I read this is that you can only take 'one' additional action during your turn. So that makes 2 normal attacks + 1 action surge attack. Furthermore, you have the Deep Stalker ability: if you use an attack option during combat on your first turn during combat, you can make 'one' additional attack. This could be interpreted as: if you have multiple attacks you can use this ability multiple times, because on every time you attack you use the attack option. This could perhaps also count for action surge if you use your additional action as an attack.

So the way I read (on your first turn if the other creature has not acted yet) it you get: 1st fighter attack -> triggers deep stalker attack -> 2nd fighter attack -> tiggers deep stalker attack -> action surge -> triggers deep stalker attack -> crossbow expert -> triggers deep stalker attack. This would account for 8 attacks?

In the quoted post it says two action surge attacks? I don't understand this. Anyway can someone please explain me:
- How many times you can use action surge (assuming you are not a level 17 fighter)
- How many times you can use the Deep Stalker extra attack

Please explain why you think it is this way RAW and what you think it should be RAI.

Action Surge grants you an extra action. So if you are a fighter of 5-10th level or any other class with extra attack, that means when you take the attack action, you make two attacks. That is RAW and RAI. That is pretty commonly known and undisputed.

As or the UA Stalker stuff it gets kind of shakey. It says on the first round of combat if you take the attack action you can make 1 additional attack. If you action surge you are taking the attack action again. So it's a very questionable, but RAW could go either way.

Assuming it works: Attack action: 2 attacks, stalker free attack on round 1, bonus action 1 attack, action surge 2 more attacks, stalker round 1 attack = 7 attacks.

[Foxydono]

Action Surge grants you an extra action. So if you are a fighter of 5-10th level or any other class with extra attack, that means when you take the attack action, you make two attacks. That is RAW and RAI. That is pretty commonly known and undisputed.

As or the UA Stalker stuff it gets kind of shakey. It says on the first round of combat if you take the attack action you can make 1 additional attack. If you action surge you are taking the attack action again. So it's a very questionable, but RAW could go either way.

Assuming it works: Attack action: 2 attacks, stalker free attack on round 1, bonus action 1 attack, action surge 2 more attacks, stalker round 1 attack = 7 attacks.
Thank you, I finally understand how it works! :)

[CaptainSarathai]

I'm not seeing this as being terribly broken. Does it come online early? Yeah, it does. Level 5 or so, if I recall. Does it do huge damage? Yeah.
But it's not At Will damage. It does that on the first round. Will it ruin encounters that the party gets to pick and execute? Yes, it could, but that's fine - if the party is picking the fight, I would expect everyone to do as much as possible in that first round.
If you want to break this character, you send in a first wave of mobs and have the BBEG show up later. He holds on to his Fighter Action Surge to smack the big guy and just gets 3A as intended. Uses AS against the big guy, he gets 4 attacks. Woo. Hoo. So OP... :(

Compare that to something like Fighter2/Lock2/Sorc3, who can, at the drop of a hat, drop 6d10+6xCha, plus 6d6 with Hex. Even without AS, they can doubletap Eldritch Blast and still do a lot of damage. The Stalker can't boost their damage from there. They cap at 2A. On their best day, they cap at 7A.

Or a Paladin3, Sorcerer3 with the BB/GFB. You hit twice, Quicken your Cantrips, and Smite on all three hits. With a GreatAxe, 3d12+4d8+3xStr. Tag an extra 2 levels of Fighter in, and that's an extra 2d12+2d8+2Str.

The thing is, while the damage is not as high, it can be done on any round and increases as the character gains levels. Whether it's because the Warlock gains extra D10s to the Eldritch Blast, or because the Paladin can throw higher level spells at Smite for extra D8s and picks up more D8s on BB/GFB.
You can't just have the BBEG arrive "fashionably late" and totally negate a large nova from these builds. I think that's the biggest downside to the UA build (other than it being UA) - you can stop it by just handwaving the first round of a fight, and then it's just "meh" amounts of damage for the rest of the game.