Grappling w/ Cloud of Dagger/Green flame

[SMac8988]

So I am working on a build for a grappler, meant to be a big burly man. As of now I think i have a solid grip on how grappling works and the stuff you can do with it; knocking prone, dragging, lifting ect.

My question is would holding the concentration for my own spell be a good idea? I am thinking eldrich/wizard multi so I have the ability to get Cloud of Dagger myself, and was thinking as a goliath I'll have decent con. I could spend my first action to maintain them grappled or make short sword attacks while holding them and keep them pinned in the storm.

Also I don't have my books and am unfamiliar with the Green Flame spell, and was wondering if I have tavern brawler and make an unarmed headbutt while grappling two targets would that work?

Thank you all!

[gfishfunk]

Two thoughts:

1. If you have good Concentration, you CAN hold the spell, but you run the risk of failing the save and wasting the spell at any time.

2. If you have something worked out with a buddy, you can magic initiate (or Lock multi-class) into Hex and impose disadvantage on Str OR Dex to make escaping the grapple harder.

[SMac8988]

Two thoughts:

1. If you have good Concentration, you CAN hold the spell, but you run the risk of failing the save and wasting the spell at any time.

2. If you have something worked out with a buddy, you can magic initiate (or Lock multi-class) into Hex and impose disadvantage on Str OR Dex to make escaping the grapple harder.

That could be a better idea. I am just trying to balance out my build so I can do a bit more damage on my own than a normal grappler build.

[gfishfunk]

That could be a better idea. I am just trying to balance out my build so I can do a bit more damage on my own than a normal grappler build.

Hex is not a terrible idea then, as it addes damage dice.

Also, consider the Tavern Brawler feat. The unarmed damage is not the main purpose, but the ability to do your full attack and then slide into a grapple on top is pretty good. Its not a perfect fit, but it is a possibility.

[Dalebert]

Also I don't have my books and am unfamiliar with the Green Flame spell, and was wondering if I have tavern brawler and make an unarmed headbutt while grappling two targets would that work?

Two problems with that. First, I think you need to attack with a weapon and the weapon is a material component of the spell. Secondly, if it has a somatic component, and I bet it does, then how will you do that with both hands preoccupied grappling creatures?

[DivisibleByZero]

, if it has a somatic component, and I bet it does,

You'd lose that bet.
Your first point stands, however.

[SMac8988]

Two problems with that. First, I think you need to attack with a weapon and the weapon is a material component of the spell. Secondly, if it has a somatic component, and I bet it does, then how will you do that with both hands preoccupied grappling creatures?

Oh very true.

I like hex, but I can't afford to delay my feats I need to late. And another class dip might be to much

Ya I have tavern brawler and grappler built in.

As of now, the build is completely online at level 8, and is functional at like level 4ish.

[Sir cryosin]

I been thinking about a grapple build the other day. You you 1lv bard for expertise in athletics, 1lv in warlock for the spells armor of agathys and hellish rebuke. Then rest abjuration wizard. What your doing is grapple the bad guy cast armor of agathys. Now your adjuration ward will soak up damage trigging armor of the agathys. But not taking your temp hit points. On your turn use blade ward to cut damage in half use spell like absorb elements, shield, armor of agathys and at night use alarm all around camp to fill ward and tells you if anything is coming all this will keep your ward filled and thanks to armor of agathys when he hits you he's taking damage. You can throw in hellish rebuke every know and then for some reaction damage. It a one trick pony but it's a one trick pony the party is going to like.

[Maxilian]

If you want to go with a Grappler build and you want to go Wizard, maybe ask your DM if they allow UA stuff, the Artificier is great for Grapplers, you can create a potion of Growth that last 1d4 hours (Way more than the spell) and doesn't require concentration

[Sir cryosin]

I been thinking about a grapple build the other day. You you 1lv bard for expertise in athletics, 1lv in warlock for the spells armor of agathys and hellish rebuke. Then rest abjuration wizard. What your doing is grapple the bad guy cast armor of agathys. Now your adjuration ward will soak up damage trigging armor of the agathys. But not taking your temp hit points. On your turn use blade ward to cut damage in half use spell like absorb elements, shield, armor of agathys and at night use alarm all around camp to fill ward and tells you if anything is coming all this will keep your ward filled and thanks to armor of agathys when he hits you he's taking damage. You can throw in hellish rebuke every know and then for some reaction damage. It a one trick pony but it's a one trick pony the party is going to like.

[NNescio]

This trick is most easily done by a Moon Druid (since he doesn't need to multiclass). Use a concentration BFC/damage spell (starting from Create Bonfire to Flaming Sphere/Moonbeam to Wall of Fire to Insect Plague to Wall of Thorns to Whirlwind), and then Wildshape into something with a grapple on hit attack, and then drag your opponents into your spell's AoE. Depending on environmental hazards you may not even need to cast a spell at all (e.g. grab somebody with Giant Octopus tentacles and then proceed to dive into water).

[SMac8988]

If you want to go with a Grappler build and you want to go Wizard, maybe ask your DM if they allow UA stuff, the Artificier is great for Grapplers, you can create a potion of Growth that last 1d4 hours (Way more than the spell) and doesn't require concentration

I'm actually doing that. It seems really strong and so helpful with the build. Also brings weight goliath can lift to a crazy nimber

[Maxilian]

I'm actually doing that. It seems really strong and so helpful with the build. Also brings weight goliath can lift to a crazy nimber

Have in mind that it doesn't take concentration, i played a Ranger BM/ Wizard Arti, and it was pretty good, the low HP of the Wizard its a pain, but you can get around that with some feats (or just a nice equipment), an extra that it have its that your weight its multiplied by 8, so that's a lot, you can easily crush people under you

[DivisibleByZero]

Have in mind that it doesn't take concentration

Highly debatable, and verifiably not RAI.

[SMac8988]

Highly debatable, and verifiably not RAI.

I had heard it didn't take concentration. Is there a debate about it?

[DivisibleByZero]

The intent is that, if the spell requires concentration, then items which cat the spell (or allow you to) require it as well. The spell is still being cast, it's just being cast in a different way than with a slot.
The RAW crowd claims that is wrong because they didn't write it.

Ask your DM.

[NNescio]

The intent is that, if the spell requires concentration, then items which cat the spell (or allow you to) require it as well. The spell is still being cast, it's just being cast in a different way than with a slot.
The RAW crowd claims that is wrong because they didn't write it.

Ask your DM.

The RAW is that certain categories of magic items bypass that limitation, including potions, which are given a specific exemption on this. See DMG pg. 141:


Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.

Since no casting of a spell is involved, the effect does not require concentration (and cannot be counterspelled, for that matter).

This is further supported by the DMG entry on the Potion of Growth on pg. 187:


When you drink this potion, you gain the "enlarge" effect of the enlarge/reduce spell for 1d4 hours (no concentration required). The red in the potion's liquid continuously expands from a tiny bead to color the clear liquid around it and then contracts. Shaking the bottle fails to interrupt this process.

...which contains an even more specific exemption, this time made deliberately EXPLICIT. Ergo, both RAW and RAI, drinking and benefiting from a Potion of Growth does not require concentration. This is no reasonable doubt whatsoever about the intent here.

Houseruling otherwise will lead to absurdities such as a Fighter drinking a potion you made popping your concentration on your Fly spell.

Simply put, if an item let you "cast a spell" (most wands and staves), then you cast it as usual, at the lowest possible spell level without using any spell components (V, S, M) and without expending any of your spell slots, at its usual casting time, range and duration, unless the spell specifies otherwise (a lot of items tend to specify using an action, even if the spell would normally take a shorter or longer time to use). Since you're casting a spell, you need to maintain concentration if the original spell also requires you to.

Items that let you "gain a spell effect", however, do not involve casting, and hence do not require concentration to maintain, even if the original spell does. Most potions in the DMG are either worded as "gain a spell effect (no concentration required", or a state change (e.g. "you become invisible", "you regain hit points", "you can breathe underwater") and hence do not involve casting a spell. Concentration is therefore not required.

One notable exception is Potion of Animal Friendship (the only such exception for potions in the DMG), which gives you the ability to cast Animal Friendship (DC 13) for one hour at will. In this case the potion grants its effect to you, but the effect is that you gain the ability to cast a spell at will, so you still cast it as normal (by strict RAW, you require components as usual, because you're not casting the spell from the item), and the spell would still require concentration (similar to a racial or monster at-will) if it requires it normally. This is a moot point, however, as Animal Friendship does not require concentration.

[DivisibleByZero]

The example you posted proves you wrong.
"with their usual duration"
Guess where any concentration requirement is stated....?

In the duration, which remains the same unless stated otherwise. So if the prion emulates a spell, and the spell requires concentration, so does the potion, unless the potion's description states otherwise.

Edit: I'm AFB. If the potion states that no concentration is required, then that's fine.
People claim all the time that potions (such as invisibility) don't require concentration. If this one states that it doesn't, then it doesn't. But if the spell does, and the potion doesn't state otherwise, then the potion does as well.

[PeteNutButter]

So I am working on a build for a grappler, meant to be a big burly man. As of now I think i have a solid grip on how grappling works and the stuff you can do with it; knocking prone, dragging, lifting ect.
My question is would holding the concentration for my own spell be a good idea? I am thinking eldrich/wizard multi so I have the ability to get Cloud of Dagger myself, and was thinking as a goliath I'll have decent con. I could spend my first action to maintain them grappled or make short sword attacks while holding them and keep them pinned in the storm.
Also I don't have my books and am unfamiliar with the Green Flame spell, and was wondering if I have tavern brawler and make an unarmed headbutt while grappling two targets would that work?
Thank you all!

I did a similar build. Level 7 now. Goliath Valor Bard. I'd recommend starting fighter 1st level and go bard from there to pump str to 18(Tavern Brawler) then warcaster, then 20 str. Dip into sorcerer 1 or pump fighter to AK at some point to grab shield spell. Best way to avoid failing concentration is to avoid being hit. For this reason I usually use a shield, unless I need to grapple two foes.

I went Valor Bard 6/Sorc 1, so I cast cloud of daggers as a 4th level spell. Typical combat involves me hitting my foe with my shield (improvised weapon) triggering tavern brawler, bonus action grapple with expertise, second attack shove prone. Round two cast cloud of daggers and move the foe into it. They take 8d4 on your turn and another 8d4 on their turn just for the movement. On subsequent rounds you can hit them with shield twice while holding them. That's 16d4 from the spell a turn and, and (1d4+4)x2 from your attack, average 53. Not amazing but the foe is prone, giving all your melee friends advantage, and since his movement speed is zero he can't get up making him attack you and your teammates with disadvantage.

It really breaks BBEG fights. Large creatures can get wrecked by multiple clouds, if your teammates have it too. I grappled a dragon. The warlock and I shredded it with two clouds of daggers. Try and keep caster slots high since cloud of daggers scales really well +2d4 per spell slot.

[Maxilian]

The example you posted proves you wrong.
"with their usual duration"
Guess where any concentration requirement is stated....?

In the duration, which remains the same unless stated otherwise. So if the prion emulates a spell, and the spell requires concentration, so does the potion, unless the potion's description states otherwise.

Edit: I'm AFB. If the potion states that no concentration is required, then that's fine.
People claim all the time that potions (such as invisibility) don't require concentration. If this one states that it doesn't, then it doesn't. But if the spell does, and the potion doesn't state otherwise, then the potion does as well.

The potion does state that no concentration is required.

[NNescio]

The example you posted proves you wrong.
"with their usual duration"
Guess where any concentration requirement is stated....?

Edit: I'm AFB. If the potion states that no concentration is required, then that's fine.
People claim all the time that potions (such as invisibility) don't require concentration. If this one states that it doesn't, then it doesn't. But if the spell does, and the potion doesn't state otherwise, then the potion does as well.

Potions of Invisibility cause you to "become invisible". Not "gain the effect of the invisibility spell". Invisible isn't even italicized, so the potion does not refer to the spell (or its greater counterpart), even if it does produce a similar effect.

Similarly the Potion of Flying lets you "gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed for 1 hour and can hover." In no way is the spell fly referenced to here, even if it produces a similar effect.

Really, read the DMG section on magic items, it becomes quite clear.

[SMac8988]

I did a similar build. Level 7 now. Goliath Valor Bard. I'd recommend starting fighter 1st level and go bard from there to pump str to 18(Tavern Brawler) then warcaster, then 20 str. Dip into sorcerer 1 or pump fighter to AK at some point to grab shield spell. Best way to avoid failing concentration is to avoid being hit. For this reason I usually use a shield, unless I need to grapple two foes.

I went Valor Bard 6/Sorc 1, so I cast cloud of daggers as a 4th level spell. Typical combat involves me hitting my foe with my shield (improvised weapon) triggering tavern brawler, bonus action grapple with expertise, second attack shove prone. Round two cast cloud of daggers and move the foe into it. They take 8d4 on your turn and another 8d4 on their turn just for the movement. On subsequent rounds you can hit them with shield twice while holding them. That's 16d4 from the spell a turn and, and (1d4+4)x2 from your attack, average 53. Not amazing but the foe is prone, giving all your melee friends advantage, and since his movement speed is zero he can't get up making him attack you and your teammates with disadvantage.

It really breaks BBEG fights. Large creatures can get wrecked by multiple clouds, if your teammates have it too. I grappled a dragon. The warlock and I shredded it with two clouds of daggers. Try and keep caster slots high since cloud of daggers scales really well +2d4 per spell slot.

That is actually what I was thinking. Was going eld knight and wizard for it, and one or two levels of rogue for the bonus damage of sneak attack. Then eld to level 11 there then idk.

But I like cloud of daggers and my wife plays a druid who can drop a moon beam for now till she gets something more.

[Maxilian]

The example you posted proves you wrong.
"with their usual duration"
Guess where any concentration requirement is stated....?

In the duration, which remains the same unless stated otherwise. So if the prion emulates a spell, and the spell requires concentration, so does the potion, unless the potion's description states otherwise.

Edit: I'm AFB. If the potion states that no concentration is required, then that's fine.
People claim all the time that potions (such as invisibility) don't require concentration. If this one states that it doesn't, then it doesn't. But if the spell does, and the potion doesn't state otherwise, then the potion does as well.

Have in mind that not all Potions use a spell effect, some just make an effect (Like the Fly potion), that doesn't use a spell effect, the only potions in the DMGs that do have concetration are:

-Potion of Clairvoyance
-Potion of Mind Reading

The others are not spell effect or specify that they don't use Concentration

[Maxilian]

That is actually what I was thinking. Was going eld knight and wizard for it, and one or two levels of rogue for the bonus damage of sneak attack. Then eld to level 11 there then idk.

But I like cloud of daggers and my wife plays a druid who can drop a moon beam for now till she gets something more.

Expertise will make you a beast when it comes to Grappling though

[PeteNutButter]

That is actually what I was thinking. Was going eld knight and wizard for it, and one or two levels of rogue for the bonus damage of sneak attack. Then eld to level 11 there then idk.

But I like cloud of daggers and my wife plays a druid who can drop a moon beam for now till she gets something more.

The reason I chose bard was I looked at things the build needed to succeed:
-Extra attack for more grapple chances, in case you roll crap on athletics.
-Expertise to prevent you from rolling as crap on athletics.
-Highest caster slots possible for most damage on your cloud of daggers.
-Cloud of Daggers on Spell list.
-Con saves for concentration on the spell.

Bard is the only one that gets 4/5 on its own. A single level in fighter at level 1 fixes the last one. Then you'll be only one level behind full casting slots.

[DivisibleByZero]

Have in mind that not all Potions use a spell effect, some just make an effect (Like the Fly potion), that doesn't use a spell effect, the only potions in the DMGs that do have concetration are:

-Potion of Clairvoyance
-Potion of Mind Reading

The others are not spell effect or specify that they don't use Concentration

Are you actually trying to argue that a potion of invisibility doesn't duplicate the invisibility spell?
That can't seriously be your standpoint, can it?

[ad_hoc]

Oh very true.

I like hex, but I can't afford to delay my feats I need to late. And another class dip might be to much

Ya I have tavern brawler and grappler built in.

As of now, the build is completely online at level 8, and is functional at like level 4ish.

Don't take the Grappler feat.

It is bad. It is much better to just shove the creature prone.