Would an Intelligence based Bard variant be problematic?

[rudy]

So, I was trying to build various fictional characters in 5e (as one does), and ran into a problem with Sherlock Holmes. Obviously he has Jack of all Trades, but Charisma 13? Ha.

So, I considered just changing the bard to be intelligence based. That is, just replace every instance of "Charisma" with "Intelligence" in their description. Inspiration would be interpreted more like tactical advice.

So, I'm wondering if anyone sees any game-balance problem with this, or any of the abilities that you think couldn't be re-fluffed to be intelligence oriented (Song of Rest is the most problematic I'm seeing). Certainly it might have been an issue back when Intelligence affected skill points, but I'm not seeing one now.

[Specter]

Not at all. In terms of skills, they would go from social god to encyclopedia. That maybe doesn't interest many players, unless they're playing in an information-focused campaign. As for the abilities, you can just refluff them.

[Biggstick]

I mean, Sherlock Holmes was extremely good at collecting information through his Deceptions and Persuasions. He utilized disguises quite often as well. You might just be able to use your Bard given Expertise's in places that you feel this character should excel (Investigation, Deception, Disguise Kit, Perception, etc. etc.). The Disguise kit might be a bit of a stretch, but I think most DM's would be fine with that stretch. Another option is to utilize the level 2 spell Enhance Ability to grant you advantage on whatever checks you'd like for an hour.

As to answering your question, I don't think it'd be game breaking to change the primary casting stat of Bard from Charisma to Intelligence.

[Daehron]

I had a very competent 'Encyclopedia' Bard I loved to play. Had a 13 int and 13 wisdom. After Cha got to 20, I took observant, then ritual caster - Wizard.

Add one level of Knowledge cleric for expertise in Arcana and History. By level 11 he had expertise in six skills. Got my hands on a Headband of Intellect and he aces the investigation and knowledge roles with ease.

[Tanarii]

I mean, Sherlock Holmes was extremely good at collecting information through his Deceptions and Persuasions. He utilized disguises quite often as well.What's interesting is establishing (pulling together) a Disguise is a Intelligence check. But passing yourself off in disguise is a Deception check. That means it's really a two check process: One to establish the disguise, assumedly against a DM specified DC based on difficulty. And another to actually pass yourself off (if required), assumedly an opposed check vs Insight.

Of course, the DM could skip one or the other of these as automatic success, based on the circumstances. Edit: For example, I generally assume if a disguise is successfully established via Int check, it holds up to basic scrutiny, and a followup deception check is only needed if the other party involved is explicitly suspicious for some reason and challenging.

[Finieous]

So, I was trying to build various fictional characters in 5e (as one does), and ran into a problem with Sherlock Holmes. Obviously he has Jack of all Trades, but Charisma 13? Ha.


I think it'd be fine, but I don't remember Holmes casting spells. :smallbiggrin:

I'd just use Mastermind.

[rollingForInit]

I played an Intelligence-based bard that multiclassed into an Intelligence-based Warlock for a couple of levels. He cast magic by studying and learning words of power. He entertained people by telling witty stories or doing riddles, puzzles, etc. He inspired people by analyzing the situation. And so on.

It was fun. It's not game-breaking at all.

[rudy]

Not at all. In terms of skills, they would go from social god to encyclopedia. That maybe doesn't interest many players, unless they're playing in an information-focused campaign. As for the abilities, you can just refluff them.
Thanks.


I mean, Sherlock Holmes was extremely good at collecting information through his Deceptions and Persuasions. He utilized disguises quite often as well. You might just be able to use your Bard given Expertise's in places that you feel this character should excel (Investigation, Deception, Disguise Kit, Perception, etc. etc.). The Disguise kit might be a bit of a stretch, but I think most DM's would be fine with that stretch. Another option is to utilize the level 2 spell Enhance Ability to grant you advantage on whatever checks you'd like for an hour.

As to answering your question, I don't think it'd be game breaking to change the primary casting stat of Bard from Charisma to Intelligence.
Well, really I've become convinced in trying that you can't build a passable Sherlock Holmes on 27 point buy. The man's too much of a Mary Sue.

BUT! Thank you for your observations concerning his Persuasion and such. I would be more inclined to think that he has a low Charisma and expertise in Persuasion/Deception, to be honest, than that he has a high Charisma.

[rudy]

What's interesting is establishing (pulling together) a Disguise is a Intelligence check. But passing yourself off in disguise is a Deception check.
Yeah, definitely thinking Expertise in Deception and Persuasion. Going to pick up at least six expertises (Bard 3+/Rogue 6+)


I think it'd be fine, but I don't remember Holmes casting spells. :smallbiggrin:

I'd just use Mastermind.
He didn't use swords or bows either. When I talk about building fictional characters, for me that implicitly includes adapting them to the setting in a way that best represents how that character would be written in that setting. Honestly if there was a way to get Jack of All Trades without Bard, I probably would, and I don't plan to go beyond Bard 4 with him, because I definitely don't see him as a "primary" caster, no. Bard, some fighter, some rogue, maybe some monk (man's got that judo **** down).


I played an Intelligence-based bard that multiclassed into an Intelligence-based Warlock for a couple of levels. He cast magic by studying and learning words of power. He entertained people by telling witty stories or doing riddles, puzzles, etc. He inspired people by analyzing the situation. And so on.

It was fun. It's not game-breaking at all.
Cool; good to hear.

[Tanarii]

I think it'd be fine, but I don't remember Holmes casting spells. :smallbiggrin:If you use that as your guideline for adapting fictional characters, they'll almost all be non-EK Fighters and non-AT Rogues.

[Biggstick]

I think it'd be fine, but I don't remember Holmes casting spells. :smallbiggrin:

I'd just use Mastermind.

No one said you have to cast spells that are flashy. You can utilize spells like Enhance Ability, or Heroism, or Calm Emotions, etc. etc.

I do agree that Mastermind is definitely a solid choice for a Sherlock Holmes type. The extra kits/languages/help action would definitely be useful for the character. Plus the level 11 ability to never roll lower then a 10 on a check you're proficient in is quite fitting for whatever you think Sherlock is proficient in.

[Finieous]

He didn't use swords or bows either. When I talk about building fictional characters, for me that implicitly includes adapting them to the setting in a way that best represents how that character would be written in that setting. Honestly if there was a way to get Jack of All Trades without Bard, I probably would, and I don't plan to go beyond Bard 4 with him, because I definitely don't see him as a "primary" caster, no. Bard, some fighter, some rogue, maybe some monk (man's got that judo **** down).


In "A Study in Scarlet" Watson describes Holmes as an expert swordsman, and in "The Adventure of the Gloria Scott" the detective practices fencing. He's good with a gun, so while the "bow" thing is likely true, that's just a matter of equipment available in the setting. I think Mastermind is the best fit. But if you think he would be written as a magic-user in a fantasy setting, that's cool too.

[rudy]

I think Mastermind is the best fit. But if you think he would be written as a magic-user in a fantasy setting, that's cool too.
He's definitely getting Mastermind levels, no doubt. But I strongly feel he also needs Jack of All Trades, and the additional expertises that he can pick up from the Bard multiclass. The spellcasting is incidental, though I agree with Biggstick about the spells being of the non-flashy variety.

[DracoKnight]

I think it'd be fine, but I don't remember Holmes casting spells. :smallbiggrin:

I do! - No...wait...I'm just thinking of the Doctor Strange trailer... :smalltongue: :smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

As a general rule, secondary/mental stats are arbitrary and there's no harm in changing them around-- a Charisma-based cleric, a Wisdom-based Sorcerer, an Intelligence-based Ranger, what have you. Especially Int and Cha, which are virtually useless outside of skills. The only real way you can impact the game is by opening up new multiclassing options (Cleric/Warlock!), and even there it's not likely to be more powerful than existing options.