Monk paladin

[Shadowscale]

How would one go about multi classing a monk with paladin levels without weakening the character too severely? I'd love to have a sort of hybrid of the two classes embodying the strengths of both classes.
Any ideas for archetypes, feats, or amount of levels would be appreciated.

[One Step Two]

I'll have to do some reading to give a full break down, but at the vest least, you will want the Feat Ascetic Knight from Complete adventurer allows both classes to stack for the purposes of Unarmed Damage and Smite damage, which will be of help.

[legomaster00156]

Does nobody ever look at the "Pathfinder" tags? :smallsigh:
The answer is "don't". Instead, check out this monk-like paladin archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype).

[One Step Two]

Does nobody ever look at the "Pathfinder" tags? :smallsigh:
The answer is "don't". Instead, check out this monk-like paladin archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype).

Whoops! :smallredface: Well, fair enough, and yeah, that archetype rules the roost :smallbiggrin:

[Sayt]

PF's Legacy of Dragons has an archetype which switches all of a monk's wisdom based class abilities to charisma from wisdom, which meshes well with Paladin.

[grarrrg]

Does nobody ever look at the "Pathfinder" tags? :smallsigh:
The answer is "don't". Instead, check out this monk-like paladin archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype).

Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-the-enlightened) is a Hybrid PrC.
It isn't great, but as far as Monk/Paladin goes its pretty solid.

[Red Fel]

Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-the-enlightened) is a Hybrid PrC.
It isn't great, but as far as Monk/Paladin goes its pretty solid.

This. I actually played around with a build awhile back that used Monk, Paladin, CoI, and a tiny Cleric dip to more-or-less weaponize Cha and Wis. Character wasn't terribly effective in most combat situations, but if pitted one-on-one against an opponent against whom Smite was effective, it turned into a nightmare.

The trick was manifold. First off, the Cleric Dip got you Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand), which gives you Wis-to-attack on Irori's favored weapon (unarmed strikes). For the Paladin levels, you take the Hospitaler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/hospitaler) archetype, which delays Smite Evil but instead lets you Channel Energy. And since Guided Hand requires Channel Smite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/channel-smite-combat), that Channel Energy pool can (potentially, requires some interpretation) be used to fuel that feat - which means you still get your Smites. (But note that Channel Smites are strictly inferior to Paladin Smite Evil.)

Here's the fun thing. With a Channel Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#table-channel-foci), you can convert Channel Energy into other stuff. Specifically, the Bronze Gong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Bronze-Gong) channel focus lets you convert Channel Energy into ki points. You'll also want a Ring of Ki Mastery, which will allow you to reduce the cost of ki abilities. This reduces the cost of your CoI Paladin abilities (Smite Evil, Lay on Hands) to 1 ki point each.

In other words, you can convert Channel Energy into ki points, and ki points into Smite Evil. Or you can use your Channel Energy to get a Smite Evil effect directly. Or you can use your ki points for your Monk abilities. Basically, they all blend together into one glorious pool of destruction that lets you weaponize your Wis and Cha.

There are also a variety of other tricks you can use. For example, you'll have Monk's Wis-to-AC. While Smite Evil is active, Paladin also grants you Cha-to-AC as a deflection bonus. If you take Osyluth Guile, while fighting defensively, you can gain Cha-to-AC again as a dodge bonus. And so forth.

Are you a total terror? No. But one-on-one against Smite-able enemies, you become incredibly competent.

[Psyren]

Does nobody ever look at the "Pathfinder" tags? :smallsigh:

No need to be aggressive, the thread tags don't show up on the mobile version of the site.

Enlightened Paladin and Champion of Irori are both very solid monk/paladin choices. Good thing too, because both of their VMCs are pretty terrible.

[Secret Wizard]

Sacred Fist is also a good option, as it has most features of both classes.

[Manyasone]

No need to be aggressive, the thread tags don't show up on the mobile version of the site.
In all fairness, sir, they do. I use my phone almost all the time to check out GitP. At work those ICT **** block everything, even the company's own site

[animewatcha]

Didn't Paizo bring the banhammer for same stat bonus multiple times to the same thing ( in this case CHA to AC ) a while ago or did they turn that around?

[grarrrg]

Didn't Paizo bring the banhammer for same stat bonus multiple times to the same thing ( in this case CHA to AC ) a while ago or did they turn that around?

Yes they did (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk), but there are exceptions.
"No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier."

So if you can find ways to get "score as a ____ bonus" then you're fine.

[Serafina]

The Scaled Fist Monk Archetype can be taken by both the chained and unchained Monk.
You get to use your Charisma for all your Monk class features and all bonus-feats that use Wisdom (including Stunned Fist).
You add Dragon Style and Intimidating Prowess, then Dazzling Display and Dragon Ferocity, then Disheartening Display, Dragon Roar and Shatter Defenses to your list of possible bonus feats.
You replace Still Mind with a +2 bonus against fear (so, redundant for a Paladin), paralysis and sleep effects.
You select an energy type and as a swift action for 1 Ki Point, can imbue your natural attacks (including unarmed strike) with 1D6 of that energy damage for 1/2 monk level rounds.
And at high level, you get to spend 3 Ki Points to do 1D6/monk level of that energy damage in a 30-foot cone as a breath weapon.

So really, what's notable about this archetype for our purposes here is that you get to use your Charisma for Stunning Fist and your unarmored AC and your Ki Pool, but that you don't get Still Mind.


What can you use that archetype for?
Well, Charisma-to-AC is nice, but not really better than armor. Even light armor will mostly outpace it. However, if you go with the Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) archetype instead, you'd get it twice to your AC - once to your AC as an untyped bonus, and once to your Dexterity, so even with FAQ-rulings it stacks.
However, getting your Charisma onto the DC of Stunning Fist is quite good. There's no other way to do that, and a Charisma-heavy Paladin would certainly benefit from that.


As a proposed build:
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk 6/Enlightened Paladin X.
High Strength and Charisma, so ideally we go with a race that enhances both, such as Angel-Blooded Aasimar.
The 6 Monk levels give you three bonus feats. Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity are good picks, adding +50% of your Strength bonus to your damage. They also give you Evasion, +20 foot movement, a Ki Pool, that energy damage to unarmed strikes and a Style Strike (probably Flying Kick). Oh, and Stunning Fist based off Charisma, and Charisma to AC, of course.
The Paladin levels give you Charisma to Saves, Lay on Hands, Personal Trial (not as good as Smite Evil, but more flexible), Charisma to AC, spellcasting and a bunch of other benefits.

It's not ideal, there's some overlap in abilities and you don't get enough bonus feats to pull off really fancy builds. But it's a solid unarmed/unarmored build, and should have a reasonably strong Stunning Fist ability, especially if you use a Ki Intensifying weapon and such.

[Secret Wizard]

What can you use that archetype for?
Well, Charisma-to-AC is nice, but not really better than armor. Even light armor will mostly outpace it. However, if you go with the Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) archetype instead, you'd get it twice to your AC - once to your AC as an untyped bonus, and once to your Dexterity, so even with FAQ-rulings it stacks.
However, getting your Charisma onto the DC of Stunning Fist is quite good. There's no other way to do that, and a Charisma-heavy Paladin would certainly benefit from that.


This is absolutely incorrect.

Your Charisma is being added as an untyped bonus twice to the same modifier, so it only applies once. The game does not care why is it applied, whether it is in replacement of another stat or in addition to it. The game only cares about whether it is a typed or untyped bonus.

This means, for example, that if you were to combine Scaled Fist with Lore Oracle with the Sidestep Secret revelation, then you'd only get +CHA to your AC, rather than +CHAx2 or +CHA+DEX, meaning you can actually screw yourself on the (usually unnecessary, always cheesy) quest for single attribute dependency.

If you'd like to apply your Charisma twice to AC, you can do it by being a Scaled Fist Monk and taking the Osyluth Guile feat, because Osyluth Guile applies your Charisma as a dodge bonus. Of course, this has several downsides, but this is a case in which it functions.


Also, let's stop calling it Enlightened Paladin. It's Iroran Paladin (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Iroran%2 0Paladin). People may forget there is some deity baggage attached to it.

In another topic: Horror Adventures also added the Tortured Soul Paladin, which is WIS-based.

[legomaster00156]

Also, let's stop calling it Enlightened Paladin. It's Iroran Paladin (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Iroran%2 0Paladin). People may forget there is some deity baggage attached to it.
That both assumes the game is set in Golarion and that the GM strictly enforces deity-specific archetypes. (Even in Golarion, I could see someone like a Paladin of Korada using this archetype.)

[Psyren]

Correct, EP/IP can't get Cha to AC twice. But it doesn't need to - Dex+Cha(up to a max = level)+Light Armor is plenty of AC for anybody.



Also, let's stop calling it Enlightened Paladin. It's Iroran Paladin (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Iroran%2 0Paladin). People may forget there is some deity baggage attached to it.

Well, the PFSRD had to strip out the Golarion stuff because it's not covered under the fansite license (as it has its own storefront separate from Paizo's.) The names they use are generic OGL substitutes given to them by Paizo to use instead, so both are correct. Similarly, they can't use the archetype "Dawnflower Dervish" because Dawnflower is a trademarked name for Sarenrae, so they had to call it Dervish of Dawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) instead.

[Secret Wizard]

Correct, EP/IP can't get Cha to AC twice. But it doesn't need to - Dex+Cha(up to a max = level)+Light Armor is plenty of AC for anybody.

Yep, for sure. Personal Trial also adds a good amount of AC.

The big thing that Iroran Pallies need is Ascetic Style and Ascetic Form so they can go with DEX 12 and CHA 16 while 2Hing a Temple Sword or Sansetsukuon.


That both assumes the game is set in Golarion and that the GM strictly enforces deity-specific archetypes. (Even in Golarion, I could see someone like a Paladin of Korada using this archetype.)

For sure.

As a matter of fact, the designer of the archetype kinda "Doh'd" at adding a deity restriction (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9nfl/discuss&page=21?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Legacy-of-Dragons#1011).

[Psyren]

The big thing that Iroran Pallies need is Ascetic Style and Ascetic Form so they can go with DEX 12 and CHA 16 while 2Hing a Temple Sword or Sansetsukuon.

Actually, I'd go with a Dex build since they're being pushed to light armor anyway. So 16+ in Dex and 14+ in Cha, depending on point buy. Then either a Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or some light monk weapon with Agile along with Ascetic Strike.

It also makes them less MAD since they need Dex and Cha.

[Secret Wizard]

Actually, I'd go with a Dex build since they're being pushed to light armor anyway. So 16+ in Dex and 14+ in Cha, depending on point buy. Then either a Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or some light monk weapon with Agile along with Ascetic Strike.

It also makes them less MAD since they need Dex and Cha.

I don't see the point since DEX12 and CHA16 means you already max your AC in a Chain Shirt.

[Psyren]

I don't see the point since DEX12 and CHA16 means you already max your AC in a Chain Shirt.

You're forgetting Mithral, but beyond that, higher Dex has other benefits (touch AC, initiative, reflex, ranged AB etc.) and it's cheaper to buy 16+16 than it is 12+20 even though they confer the exact same total bonus.