How low can your casting stat go?

[thereaper]

Theoretically, there's nothing stopping you from having a 3 INT Caster. And if you're an Eldritch Knight, it might even be a good idea. But excluding edge cases like that, how low can your casting stat go and still be effective? Obviously, 16 is just fine, but what about 14? What about if you're forcing mostly wisdom saves (as far as I can tell, most monsters have weak wisdom saves)? Is there a practical minimum?

[PeteNutButter]

Practically? If you are going to spend your action, and a spell slot you want to have a maximum chance of success. Otherwise you are wasting precious time in combat and spell slots.

I'd probably not use saving throw spells if I had lower than a 14.

With a 14 Int the EK's saving throw will be 12. Say you want to cast tasha's hideous laughter on the goblin boss (-1 to wisdom saves), there is a 40% chance he does not find you funny. If the foe has +1 wis it jumps to 50% chance. That's pretty bad for expending an action and a resource, especially considering the alternative. A level 3 wizard might not do much with his firebolt, so its ok if he goes for that chance. The EK on the other hand will do more damage with his attack, and saving the slot for shield will save his life and possibly the team.

With bounded accuracy, every point really counts. Although, at higher levels proficiency can outpace ability modifiers, especially if you aren't bumping casting stat.

[AttilatheYeon]

Well considering at least half the caster's number of spells prepared is linked to the caster stat, i'd say, not too low. A full caster with 1 spell prep'd kinda blows.

[Specter]

The minimum good, according to my opinion:

Bards - If you go solely with buffs, it's doable, but buffs aren't plenty, and inspiration would be limited as well. 14
Clerics - all healing spells have a wis requirement, as do the saves of debuffs, as do the Channel Divinity options. 16
Druid - buffs are lacking, but spell DCs and to-hits aren't. Moon druids can maybe survive 14, but Land wants 16.
Fighter (EK) - Everyone will tout about 8 INT and only using self-buffs, but many of an EK'S spells will be save and to-hit, so dumping INT means not exploiting any of those possibilities. The very least is 10, but I wouldn't play one without at least 12.
Paladin - Aura of Protection is so good that it overshadows any spell DC. 16
Ranger - The most vital ranger spells don't require WIS, and other ranger features don't ask for much Wisdom. Still, Survival is WIS. 14
Rogue (AT) - INT is even more important here than to EKs, since almost all illusions and enchantment spells will have a save or check involved. 14 if possible.
Sorcerer - Blasting? 16
Wizard - even if you're a controller, saves and attacks will always be important. 16

[Tanarii]

I've rolled a character with highest score 12 before, and started her as a Cleric. ASIs all went into Wis though.

Definitely not the most effective character I've ever played.

[Sigreid]

Yeah, I wouldn't low ball a casting stat for anyone who depends on their spells as their primary strength. It's far more negatively impacting than it is for a martial to have a lower combat stat because you run a higher risk of spending your action to make nothing happen, and worse you are spending a much harder to replenish resource in order to make that nothing happen. It's a bad deal.

[Socratov]

Is it possible? Yes.

You could pick spells that buff, are used for utility or change the terrain or are otherwise not linked to your casting stat (i.e. depend on spell attack roll or force a save). In theory it does not really matter wether or not you have that score.

Please notice that healing spells (except for spells like goodberry) often include a spellcasting modifier to the number of HP healed, so a very low score with penalty will make those spells ineffective.

Practically speaking it's inadvisable. Though intelligence casters are most able to dump their casting stat, often a class's casting stat also influences other abilities (like skills, class features like Inspire Courage for bards and elemental affinity for dragon sorcerers, channel divinity for clerics, etc.), so outright duping to 3 might be a very bad idea. The fact that the intelligence skills are statistically the least used in play (versus wisdom's heal to stablise dying people, perception and insight to detect lies or charisma's social skills to get out of jail for free or cheap) would make it the most likely candidate to create a dump-the-main-casting-stat-full-caster character.

A special mention for the warlock: you could make a roguelike warlock who uses STR or DEX to hide and uses magic either defensive (Armour of Agathys) or to change/obscure the terrain (hunger of hadar) or even to help his/her/its stealth (invisibility) and uses its pact blade to assassinate people (booming blade, for instance) or goes for an archery combat style while using a familliar to scout or a tome to cast rituals. it would not make for the most optimal warlock, but an effective one.

Edit: sad day today: the Ephe github grimoire has been taken down on DMCA notice. I get that WotC don't want their materials publicly published, but that repository was a great way to actually quickly be able to look up spell effects, quickly search which spells are available to which class. I hardly think that spells are all the PHB offers. Sad to see an effort to increase the playability of 5e go down.

[smcmike]

It's binary. A character with a middling casting stat, like a 14, can still cast offensive magic, but they aren't very good at it, and they don't have the stat resources to try something else, either.

This is why it's not a bad idea to dump it completely with an EK or AT. Why put resources into abilities that will just be mediocre?

Dumping with a real caster is another matter.

A valor bard could still be somewhat effective, I think, though of course losing almost all of your inspiration is a pretty big blow. Still, built for archery or grappling, you'll have something to contribute in combat.

A moon Druid could probably dump, but it's hard to say WHY they would do so, since they only have one useful stat.

The famous 10 int wizard is... well, I'd be willing to play it in a low level campaign. Before level 5, you really aren't doing that badly with a dumb mountain dwarf abjurer. At higher levels, your combat effectiveness will drop off a cliff as the martials get more attacks and you don't.

[PeteNutButter]

A valor bard could still be somewhat effective, I think, though of course losing almost all of your inspiration is a pretty big blow. Still, built for archery or grappling, you'll have something to contribute in combat.


I played a goliath grappler bard with a 13 cha. In hindsight I wish I would have just gone fighter 1 for heavy armor and con saves and more points for cha(via dumping dex).

There was so much I was missing out on for it. Less inspiration yeah, but also upon leveling up I had a choice of like 1-3 spells. The problem with buffing only is, you can have only 1 buff up at a time. And tell me what good bard buff there is for 3rd level? Yep there are none. I ended up filling a couple wizard roles being the guy that could cast Leo's Hut and Dispel Magic.

The character broke many a fight with his grappling and dragging people into clouds of daggers, but when grapple was off the table, due to size or incorporeal foes he was just a weak fighter who could toss out weak healing words. Nothing to fall back on.

[thereaper]

I was thinking along the lines of a Jack of all Trades Valor Bard; sometimes stabbing people, sometimes casting spells (the ones with saves would mostly target Wisdom; most monsters have a +1 Wis modifier or less). I figure 14 Wis might be enough for that in the short term.

[Specter]

Edit: sad day today: the Ephe github grimoire has been taken down on DMCA notice. I get that WotC don't want their materials publicly published, but that repository was a great way to actually quickly be able to look up spell effects, quickly search which spells are available to which class. I hardly think that spells are all the PHB offers. Sad to see an effort to increase the playability of 5e go down.

Fear not, brother! Me and my friends backed up all of that just hoping for this day!
http://yurigava.github.io/grimoire/

[PeteNutButter]

I was thinking along the lines of a Jack of all Trades Valor Bard; sometimes stabbing people, sometimes casting spells (the ones with saves would mostly target Wisdom; most monsters have a +1 Wis modifier or less). I figure 14 Wis might be enough for that in the short term.

You'd be fine w a 14. Don't go lower.

[Socratov]

Fear not, brother! Me and my friends backed up all of that just hoping for this day!
http://yurigava.github.io/grimoire/

Praise onto you!

I have also filed an official complaint at WotC for disabling features that speed up play and enrich the dnd 5e experience. Worst case scenario I have lost about 15 minutes of my time, est case scenario we get to keep our repositories.

[Naanomi]

If I had to have low stats, I'd be a Druid... Rely on wild shape to cover the gaps in my casting.

If I had to play a 'caster ' style caster... I imagine a sorcerer or Necromancer with low casting stats would be possible once animate dead / animate objects hit the field

[Tanarii]

In regards to making an effective primary caster with a dumped (or lowish) casting stat, yes, it's absolutely possible for many of them. Especially if SCAG Cantrips are on the table, because Booming Blade is pretty effective even with a dumped stat. And more so if you're willing to MC dip.

You won't be effective at whatever the primary caster's original role was. But you can be an effective combatant and fairly effective utility caster, using only non-stat dependent spells.

Edit: in particular, this is true for Str (all HA domains) or Dex (Trickery Archer is awesome) Clerics, Valor Bards (Str w Dex 14 or straight Dex) & Lore Bards (Dex), Dragon Sorcerers (Dex with Booming Blade & stacking defensive spells is okay), Warlock (Bladelock, although lack of Cha sucks at 12+), and even Wizards with Bladesinger & defensive spells. In many cases you have to be careful, because HPs are low. Of course you can always take Toughness.

[Ruslan]

In regards to making an effective primary caster with a dumped (or lowish) casting stat, yes, it's absolutely possible for many of them. Especially if SCAG Cantrips are on the table, because Booming Blade is pretty effective even with a dumped stat.

That's not a 'caster' though, that's a gish (fighter that augments his melee prowess with magic).

[Tanarii]

That's not a 'caster' though, that's a gish (fighter that augments his melee prowess with magic).Totally fair point. One I've often made myself.

[JeenLeen]

I'm playing an Arcane Trickster with 8 Int, and it hurts. My spell options are basically limited to no-saves, no-rolls, so a few utility spells (Disguise Self) and some battlefield control (Fog Cloud as my non-Illusion/Enchantment).
I imagine the limitations on viable spells would just get greater with a full spellcaster, since you likely have no other damage dealing options (moon druid excepted).

I could see a ranger with low Wisdom, focusing on stuff like Hunter's Bane, Silence, Pass without Trace to supplement melee/ranged combat and stealth.

[MaxWilson]

Theoretically, there's nothing stopping you from having a 3 INT Caster. And if you're an Eldritch Knight, it might even be a good idea. But excluding edge cases like that, how low can your casting stat go and still be effective? Obviously, 16 is just fine, but what about 14? What about if you're forcing mostly wisdom saves (as far as I can tell, most monsters have weak wisdom saves)? Is there a practical minimum?

No practical minimum. You could have an Int 3 Necromancer or an Int 3 Moon Druid and by just fine. Here's a list off the top of my head of spells which are useful without requiring a high spellcasting DC:

Wizard:
Magic Jar (in fact, lower is actually better, especially if you have a good Cha save)
Rope Trick (for short rests)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (for long rests)
Phantom Steed (amazingly good kiting for one PC, which doesn't have to be you)
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Foresight
Haste
Wall of Force (no-save control of a single enemy or small group of enemies)
Simulacrum
Forcecage
True Polymorph
Shapechange
Polymorph
Wall of Stone
Fireball (even half damage will kill plenty of goblins/stirges/orcs)
Animate Dead (obviously--enormous boost to the party's collective concentration and action economies, even if the skellies do nothing but Help PCs and toss nets)
Conjure Minor Elementals (meat shields and Heat Metal spam)
Fly
Teleport
Scrying
Arcane Eye
Seeming (with low Int, the illusion is easier to pierce once you examine it--but it still works up until you do examine it. Turn your whole party into "friendly" hobgoblin soldiers just like everyone else in the hobgoblin camp, or else just make them all look like Medusas so enemies avert their eyes in combat)
Find Familiar (free scout--who might actually be more intelligent than the wizard for once!)

Bard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin (combined for convenience):

Heroism
Revivify
Etherealness
Aura of Vitality
Warding Bond
Bless
Conjure Animals (meat shields and lots of damage; perhaps flight)
Greater Restoration (restore stoned/perma-stunned creatures to life)
Raise Dead

Off the top of my head that's all I've got, but it's enough to play a bard or a wizard from levels 1-20 and have lots of fun. I have an Int 6 or 7 Necromancer lying around somewhere whom I'm just dying to someday play for as long as he survives. He wears heavy armor despite non-proficiency because he's already blown all of his spell slots on skeletons; and he spends his actions in combat Dodging while using his bonus action to control his skeletons and shriek, "Kill them! Kill them all!" All of his other stats are low too and he's basically a pathetic loser with an extremely short temper and an enormous grudge against the whole world--but I'm sure I will have a blast "show them all that they shouldn't have laughed at me." Name: Giuseppe Zengara.

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Edit: sad day today: the Ephe github grimoire has been taken down on DMCA notice. I get that WotC don't want their materials publicly published, but that repository was a great way to actually quickly be able to look up spell effects, quickly search which spells are available to which class. I hardly think that spells are all the PHB offers. Sad to see an effort to increase the playability of 5e go down.

I can understand why WotC did it, but I think it's too bad. I have purchased 6 or 7 copies of the PHB (given 5 or so of them away) and two copies of the MM, so it's not like I'm short on access to copies of the rulebooks--but even when I know a MM is lying only fifteen feet away on top of my bookshelf, I [I]still often refer to online sources (either going straight to 5esrd.com or else just googling e.g. "Tarrasque 5E" and looking for pictures), especially for Internet discussions when I'm already on the computer and/or I want to copy/paste rules into a discussion. (Also, it's nice to be able to open multiple tabs in a browser instead of trying to keep my fingers in multiple places in a book as impromptu bookmarks.)

I wish that instead of a takedown notice, WotC had just taken control of Ephe or something. They could add authentication (via oAuth to Google/Facebook), charge a one-time $20 fee for access, and bam! now they have a new e-product to sell that didn't take them three years and four failed attempts to create. You just know WotC would take forever to replicate Ephe if they did it on their own.

[mgshamster]

A low int/wis caster would be a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect - the character knows so little he doesn't know he's not supposed to be in that class. Heck, he probably even thinks he's better than everyone else, too!

Give him a high charisma and the charlatan background, and he'd be the perfect model of a pseudoscience peddler. :)

[Sniccups]

One of my players has a Moon Druid and rolled 4 14s for the stats, and nothing higher.

[Hrugner]

Well considering at least half the caster's number of spells prepared is linked to the caster stat, i'd say, not too low. A full caster with 1 spell prep'd kinda blows.

I'm not familiar with this rule, what are you talking about exactly?

[PeteNutButter]

I'm not familiar with this rule, what are you talking about exactly?

Clerics wizards and Druids prepare a number of spells equal to their class level plus key stat mod.

No effect on bards, warlocks, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, AKs, and EKs.

[Tanarii]

Clerics wizards and Druids prepare a number of spells equal to their class level plus key stat mod.Yeah a Int 3 Wizard with 1 spell prepared until level 6 would kinda suck.


No effect on bards, warlocks, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, AKs, and EKs.Paladins prepare. 1/2 level (rounded down) +Cha, min of 1. So Cha 3 would mean 1 spell prepared + oath spells, until level 10. Arguably better off than a Int 3 Wizard or Wis 3 Moon Druid, due to Oath Spells.

[Hrugner]

Clerics wizards and Druids prepare a number of spells equal to their class level plus key stat mod.

No effect on bards, warlocks, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, AKs, and EKs.

funny I've been treating it like older memorization versions. oops

[PeteNutButter]

Yeah a Int 3 Wizard with 1 spell prepared until level 6 would kinda suck.

Paladins prepare. 1/2 level (rounded down) +Cha, min of 1. So Cha 3 would mean 1 spell prepared + oath spells, until level 10. Arguably better off than a Int 3 Wizard or Wis 3 Moon Druid, due to Oath Spells.

Yes, my mistake. Rangers should be the same, :smallfurious: but that's another argument altogether.

[NNescio]

One of my players has a Moon Druid and rolled 4 14s for the stats, and nothing higher.

Moon Druids are probably the only class that can still 'function' with 3s in all stats. Very poorly, mind you, since their spellcasting ability is pretty much shot all to hell, but they can at least contribute as party pet.

The other option is bulffstick Life Cleric, but by that point you're playing a complete NPC.