Chameleons - whither next?

[Khedrac]

So the brave Chameleon finally gains enough experience for 16th level and, err, now what class should she take?

Seriously, most Chameleon builds hit Chameleon 10 at 15th level, which does leave quite a few levels to fill, but with what? There are several classes that look to synergise will with Chameleons (e.g. Incarnate, Warlock, Dragon Shaman, Binder etc.) but most of these come out rather less impressive when taking one's first level some time after level 15.

Oddly, one class that looks to work rather well is the much maligned Arcane Archer. So what if it does not advance spellcasting - a Chameleon 10's casting progression is already capped!
Unfortunately for me, the group I will be playing in already has an archery rogue.

[Request Background]
We are re-starting a campaign that stopped at about 18th level, and we will be continuing on into early epic. The DM has advised me to replace my previous character, a war weaver, because the background to the plot is that sorcerer/wizard spells of 5th level and above are not working (for any class) thus pure arcanists are contra-indicated. I don't know yet what everyone else will be playing, so I want to make a character that can help out pretty much everywhere and hold his or her own without overshadowing the role-specialists.
My current draft build is Rogue 2 / Ranger (Urban) 2 / Swordsage 1 / Chameleon 10 / Swordsage +3.
I don't want to keep pushing Swordsage (my default option) and I can reduce or eliminate class levels as needed for better ideas.
[/Request Background]

So, what are good classes to follow up Chameleon 10?
I don't want too many wasted +1 to existing spellcasting levels as it feels like a waste (though a couple would be OK for the caster level boost) so what are classes that look nice until you count up the lost casting levels that a Chameleon doesn't care about?

Note: I think my first few epic feats will all be improved spell capacity.

[Kaje]

You can't get into Arcane Archer anyway. Chameleon casting can't meet prereqs.

What about three levels of Duskblade though?

[Fizban]

Since you don't have any actual caster levels, you can't qualify for PrCs that require it, including Arcane Archer, nor do you qualify for Improved Spell Capacity.

Rogue 2 is a waste, pick up Rogue 3. Take Fighter 4 and pile on the feats. Assassin would be dandy for the Death Attack.

Look for all those 5 level PrC's you'd normally never take. Complete Champion has a few: Forest Reeve's magic abilities are pretty lame, but it fills out most of your missed Ranger abilities in only 5 levels. Paragnostic Initiate gives a few support tricks in only 3 levels. Sanctified One can give you 18HD griffons or piles of luck rerolls or other stuff. Squire of Legend can give you other nasty tricks like giving someone a standard action, or true strike, or taking over concentration on spells. Elsewhere, the Dread Commando is quite nice if you don't mind the feats, full BAB, team initiative, and better stealth. Or take Fortune's Friend for a serious pile of luck rerolls. Take Occult Slayer for spell defenses. Leviathan Hunter. Witch Slayer. Take some Exemplar so you never have to roll your important skills.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about levels in ardent? Take Practiced Manifester to add +4 to your ML, buy a few +ML items, and do everything you can to bump up your Wisdom and how many power points you gain from it.

If you were to go factotum/ardent before chameleon (using your manifesting for utility), use Able Learner to qualify for chameleon through skill manipulation, and use the psi chameleon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?145669-Making-the-Chameleon-even-more-awesome-(PEACH)), your power point pools and psicrystal granted abilities will stack, if nothing else.

[Darrin]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 3. Channel Spell + aquatic escape. Turn all your opponents into Magikarp (no save).

[Khedrac]

You can't get into Arcane Archer anyway. Chameleon casting can't meet prereqs.
No so much the casting as the race - good catch though.

Since you don't have any actual caster levels, you can't qualify for PrCs that require it, including Arcane Archer, nor do you qualify for Improved Spell Capacity.
Not convinced:

Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.
Whilst the Chameleon does not have the class ability Spellcasting it does have a "Spells per Day" entry for every class level and both the Arcane and Divine Focus abilities state "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane/divine spells" which is what the Spellcasting entries say for classes that give it regardless.
You would certainly lose any relevant feats (and possibly prestige classes) when not in the correct focus, but I don't see how Chameleon cannot be considered a spellcasting class. It is very different to Factotum in this.


What about three levels of Duskblade though?
Worth a look.


Rogue 2 is a waste, pick up Rogue 3. Fill out Swordsage for a few more manuevers. Take Fighter 4 and pile on the feats. Assassin would be dandy for the Death Attack.
Good point on Rogue 2 - I did it for Evasion and skill points. I was wondering about fighter for the feats so yes to that.
Assassin will work for others but not for me, I don't like playing evil characters.

Look for all those 5 level PrC's you'd normally never take. Complete Champion has a few: Forest Reeve's magic abilities are pretty lame, but it fills out most of your missed Ranger abilities in only 5 levels. Paragnostic Initiate gives a few support tricks in only 3 levels. Sanctified One can give you 18HD griffons or piles of luck rerolls or other stuff. Squire of Legend can give you other nasty tricks like giving someone a standard action, or true strike, or taking over concentration on spells.
Definitely worth looking at when I get at my books.

How about levels in ardent? Take Practiced Manifester to add +4 to your ML, buy a few +ML items, and do everything you can to bump up your Wisdom and how many power points you gain from it.

If you were to go factotum/ardent before chameleon (using your manifesting for utility), use Able Learner to qualify for chameleon through skill manipulation, and use the psi chameleon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?145669-Making-the-Chameleon-even-more-awesome-(PEACH)), your power point pools and psicrystal granted abilities will stack, if nothing else.
Psionics is off the table for this campaign, but valid suggestions for anyone else.

I should probably mention that we do use XP penalties for multiclassing...

[Fizban]

Not convinced:
The rule, and intent, is crystal clear: "You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option." Just because they list spells per day on the table doesn't change that. You only have any amount of spellcasting because of aptitude focus, and that does not qualify for feats or PrCs. Period.

If you actually follow multiclassing xp penalties then all the more reason to take nothing but prestige classes, since they completely ignore it. What class to take depends entirely on how you plan to build the rest of the character. Once you hit epic your BAB and iterative attacks stop going up, but unless you're eating penalties from non-fractional BAB you should hit four attacks as long as you keep the 3/4 or higher.

[Khedrac]

Sanctified One
I think you just found me the way to go - thank-you so much.

Please keep the suggestions coming for other people to use though.

My character is envisioned as an Agent of the Church of Korotiku (basically think Olidammara) so that is a perfect fit. Thank-you again.

[Big Fau]

Trapsmith (Dungeonscape) has an amazing spell list even though its gimmick isn't that useful at that high of a level.

[FearlessGnome]

Not convinced:


It's due to the Chameleon class itself saying you can't use anything it gives you (except the feat and Commoner BAB & Saves) to qualify for anything else. If I were you I'd ask your DM to ignore that paragraph, because it's stupid. My own experience is that most DMs will let you ignore it. Just do ask them, because RAW is very clear (and stupid). Did anyone involved in making that class give any thought at all to what a Chameleon10 should do for the last five levels of their build?

[Khedrac]

It's due to the Chameleon class itself saying you can't use anything it gives you (except the feat and Commoner BAB & Saves) to qualify for anything else. If I were you I'd ask your DM to ignore that paragraph, because it's stupid. My own experience is that most DMs will let you ignore it. Just do ask them, because RAW is very clear (and stupid). Did anyone involved in making that class give any thought at all to what a Chameleon10 should do for the last five levels of their build?
I see what you mean. I assume it is supposed to stop them form being too powerful, but it really stops a Chameleon doing anything useful afterwards :(

Hopefully my DM will allow me to ignore that ruling so long as I do not abuse it :/

[Crake]

Take a level of eidetic wizard and start filling out your eidetic spellbook via extra known spell every day with your floating bonus feat.

Also, while you may not be able to take improved spell capacity, a level in wizard and pracitised spellcaster would let you qualify for the extra slot feat, and nothing under chameleon says you cannot apply the benefits of feats to the abilities gained from aptitude focus. Thus you can qualify for an extra spell slot via wizard, but apply it to chameleon. Then, if you get snowcasting and sanctum spell, you can now cast "8th" level spells (note that this is NOT a prerequisite of the extra slot feat), letting extra slot grant you a 7th level slot, and you can see where I'm going with this, just play around with your feats (you have a 7th level spell slot, cast limited wish for psychic reformation to reselect your feats as needed, or just bind something to cast it for you) and you'll quickly find yourself able to cast 9th level spells without issue.

PM me if you want it in more detail, it's 6:30am at the moment and I'm half asleep

[Extra Anchovies]

Chameleon entry isn't particularly restrictive; Factotum 1/[Anything else] 4 with Able Learner at 1st does the job. I like to fill one of those open levels with Binder and the other three with Incarnate, a ToB class, or Totemist 2/ToB 1 (cuz Totemist 3 gives next to nothing). Adding a fourth ToB level at 16th lets you retrain one of your maneuvers up to 5th right away. Swordsages learn a second new maneuver at 4th level and Warblades get their second stance; I slightly prefer Swordsage because their larger maneuvers-known pool makes meeting prerequisites easier and they get a third stance (of up to 6th) at 5th level anyway.

Using the floating feat for Martial Study gives you another highest-level maneuver that you can repick every day, and Shape Soulmeld is similarly useful for the Incarnate or Totemist routes.

[Cerefel]

I don't really see the point in going factotum if you're only taking one level. Obscure skills aside, they don't get a whole lot at level 1.

You'd probably be better off with a level in bard for stuff like loresong and an actual caster level. Also chameleon doesn't give you a good imitation of bardic music so it's nice to have the real deal.

[HaikenEdge]

Honestly, I don't see a point in taking Chameleon past 9 if you're entering via straight Factotum. The capstone ability for the Chameleon class isn't exactly great, just more of what you already have, and the 11th level Factotum class feature is heads-shoulders-knees-and-toes better in comparison, so I'd generally go for the Factotum 5/Chameleon 9/Factotum +6 route.

To address the original topic, I'd suggest getting some levels in Masters of Masks. It adds to the utility for the character, and the Gladiator mask will give you access to all martial and exotic weapons, meaning some of the exotic weapons that also have out-of-combat functions are now more viable to carry around.

[bean illus]

I don't really see the point in going factotum if you're only taking one level. Obscure skills aside, they don't get a whole lot at level 1.

You'd probably be better off with a level in bard for stuff like loresong and an actual caster level. Also chameleon doesn't give you a good imitation of bardic music so it's nice to have the real deal.

Uhhh, Cunning Insight is an Int bonus. On a high level Int based character 18+5,+5 wish +5 items =33 for =11 to hit (or save) twice per encounter as an instant (non)action. Add in the capstone Ability Boon +6 and your Fact1/Chameleon/10 is shooting +14 for life. Add Eagles Splendor and Half Nymph Template and it's +16, and I'm sure folks here could increase that.

+16 on all saves, or two attacks per encounter?

I would call that worth considering.

Of course Brains over Brawn gives you that same bonus (+16) on trip, grapple, initiative, and about 12 skills for zero inspiration points. . .
============================

I've tried Facto11/Cham9, and it's kinda short on feats. Facto3/Cham10/Wiz1/Abjurant Champion5/Wiz+ lets you cast 4th level Wizard per day at 15th CL. There's probably a way to switch Wiz to a +BaB class and hit 16 BaB. The build gets 7th level Wiz/Cleric spells, limited wish, anyspell, healing, a familiar, skill access, hit points, etc. I'm sure there are more powerful builds,

[Sian]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 3. Channel Spell + aquatic escape. Turn all your opponents into Magikarp (no save).

couple of problems ...

1. Aquatic escape is a druid spell only
2. the spell in question have "Target: You"

[Darrin]

1. Aquatic escape is a druid spell only


Pretty darned convenient then, her being a Chameleon and all (Divine Focus).



2. the spell in question have "Target: You"


Channel Spell overrides the Target: entry. If you prefer an arcane version, lesser spider form (DotU) isn't quite as lethal but might be suitably humiliating.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

2. the spell in question have "Target: You"A spellblade allows you to retarget whatever the spellblade is keyed to, without regard to the spell's previous target entry.

[HaikenEdge]

I've tried Facto11/Cham9, and it's kinda short on feats. In what sense? Outside Able Learner, the feat the build probably takes the most is Font of Inspiration.

[bean illus]

I've tried Facto11/Cham9, and it's kinda short on feats.


In what sense? Outside Able Learner, the feat the build probably takes the most is Font of Inspiration.

Humans get 8 feats. Able Learner and FoI two or three times? You barely get a different feat till about 9th level? Four feats is nice, but some builds have a lot more room to define the character as unique.
For instance, Facto/meleon can make a fun spiked chain tripper, but it's a bit tight.

Anyway, sorry. I didn't mean tight like hard to do, just less free feats than some builds have. Of course the floating feat from chameleon makes for a whole different kind of fun.

[Pyromancer999]

Seems you're set on Chamelon 10/Sanctified One 5 after 5th level. I would recommend being a Changeling Rogue 3 with substitution levels to start off, as it gives you some very nice social abilities, a slight bonus to all Knowledges, lots of skill points, allows you to add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list, plus (although most likely thanks to what is most likely a typo) gets you full BAB up to that level. Add in a level of Marshal (for a +Charisma bonus to all Charisma skills) or Warlock(for a flat +6 to the main social skills from Beguiling Influence, plus a blasting ray) and a level in Cloistered Cleric(both because it's good (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0), will allow you to get Knowledge(which can be swapped out for Knowledge Devotion(more useful to you), and it will allow for some spellcasting progression from Sanctified One if your DM doesn't let the +1 caster level go to Chameleon). Can also swap out Marshal with Swordsage at 5th in order to get some higher level maneuvers, or Factotum if you'd like all skills as class skills and Trapfinding. Ranger 1 can also be a good melee dip to replace the Marshal or Warlock level, as you can swap out Track for Trapfinding(which a Changeling Rogue with substitution levels lacks), get a wider range of Favored enemies(all arcane spellcasters and creatures with arcane spell-like abilities) with the Arcane Hunter ACF, as well as swap out some less useful skills for better stuff(like Ride for Tumble). It also has Full BAB, good HD, and 6 + Int skill points.

Also, if you decide to go Changeling and your DM does let other classes advance Chameleon's spellcasting and you like Metamagic, try cutting out a few Chameleon levels to go Recaster (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=3), which does wonderful metamagic-y things with spells.

[Jack_Simth]

So the brave Chameleon finally gains enough experience for 16th level and, err, now what class should she take?

Seriously, most Chameleon builds hit Chameleon 10 at 15th level, which does leave quite a few levels to fill, but with what? There are several classes that look to synergise will with Chameleons (e.g. Incarnate, Warlock, Dragon Shaman, Binder etc.) but most of these come out rather less impressive when taking one's first level some time after level 15.

Oddly, one class that looks to work rather well is the much maligned Arcane Archer. So what if it does not advance spellcasting - a Chameleon 10's casting progression is already capped!
Unfortunately for me, the group I will be playing in already has an archery rogue.

[Request Background]
We are re-starting a campaign that stopped at about 18th level, and we will be continuing on into early epic. The DM has advised me to replace my previous character, a war weaver, because the background to the plot is that sorcerer/wizard spells of 5th level and above are not working (for any class) thus pure arcanists are contra-indicated. I don't know yet what everyone else will be playing, so I want to make a character that can help out pretty much everywhere and hold his or her own without overshadowing the role-specialists.
My current draft build is Rogue 2 / Ranger (Urban) 2 / Swordsage 1 / Chameleon 10 / Swordsage +3.
I don't want to keep pushing Swordsage (my default option) and I can reduce or eliminate class levels as needed for better ideas.
[/Request Background]

So, what are good classes to follow up Chameleon 10?
I don't want too many wasted +1 to existing spellcasting levels as it feels like a waste (though a couple would be OK for the caster level boost) so what are classes that look nice until you count up the lost casting levels that a Chameleon doesn't care about?

Note: I think my first few epic feats will all be improved spell capacity.

Oddly, simpler builds do better in terms of post-15th. A Bard-5/Chameleon-10/Loremaster-X (need to cheat slightly to make the 3rd level spellcasting requirement of Loremaster - Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster, or similar - could also replace the first few Loremaster levels with Ruathar levels and advance Bardic spellcasting to get there) gets useful class features at 16th and up, qualifies for item creation feats due to the Bard spellcasting (which are actually quite useful with Chameleon spell access, especially with the ability to just grab a different item creation feat each day when crafting - making a weapon? Get Craft Magic Arms and Armor. A Belt of Magnificence? Craft Wondrous Item. Need a wand? There's a feat for that). And of course, at Epic levels, that +2 Caster level per class level ROCKS if you can uncap a spell (Reserves of Strength!).