Greatsword VS Exotic Weapon Master and two handed BS

[Yogibear41]

In your opinion when playing a "fighter type" is trading away an extra feat or 2 and a 1 level dip into Exotic weapon master worth getting double your strength to damage when using a BS, or would you prefer to spend the feats on something else and just stick with a greatsword?

If you were starting your build with say fighter levels instead of say barbarian levels and had a few extra bonus feats would that change your mind?

[OldTrees1]

I find you usually already have enough damage so I would be looking for qualitative improvements rather than quantitative improvements.

That said, the price of Exotic Weapon Master does decrease if you enter with a Fighter. I still won't take it since I am looking for a different kind of ability, but I can recognize the cost dropped.


However how high does your Strength need to be for it to be worthwhile in the first place?
16Str would make the results close (1d10+3+3=11.5 & 2d6+3+1=11) however you are paying 1-2 feats and a level

Weapon Specialization Greatsword vs EWM BS (1d10+7+7=19.5 & 2d6+7+3+2=19) requires 24Str to favor EWM, Weapon Specialization is a bad feat, and we still haven't counted the lost level

If we pretend the lost level is worth another Weapon Specialization (It is actually worth more) then:

Weapon Specialization x2 Greatsword (2d6+11+5+4=27)
EWM BS (1d10+11+11=27.5)
EWM comes ahead at 32 Str

Edit: Weapon Specialization is +2 not +4. It is worse than I remembered.

[HaikenEdge]

I find the amount of damage doesn't really make a difference in most combat damage oriented builds.

[Extra Anchovies]

Exotic Weapon Master isn't a bad one-level dip on a Swordsage or Warblade. Swordsages get Weapon Focus in the form of Discipline Focus (Diamond Mind has bastard swords as a discipline weapon), and Warblades can retrain their EWP and Weapon Focus for free so they could use a different weapon before they dip EWM.

That being said, you're not getting a huge damage increase unless you really focus on boosting your Strength - you lose about 2 average damage by switching from 2d6 to 1d10, so that extra +0.5*Str breaks even at 18 and increases by 1 for every 4 points of Strength above 18. A score of 30 is a reasonable estimate for a high-level primary stat, and that's a +3 to damage.

So it's not great - a Warblade would be better off replacing EWP with Weapon Specialization because they'd be a level ahead in maneuvers and have only marginally less damage - but it's not worthless, especially with a high base Strength. It would also be worth considering if you expect to have your off hand occupied with other things some of the time (e.g. wands), but ToB isn't starved for damage so you'd probably be fine two-handing a longsword and skipping EWM.

However, if your DM lets Warblades use Weapon Aptitude to retrain the Exotic Weapon Stunts, it gets somewhat better and a lot more interesting.

[Yogibear41]

I find you usually already have enough damage so I would be looking for qualitative improvements rather than quantitative improvements.

That said, the price of Exotic Weapon Master does decrease if you enter with a Fighter. I still won't take it since I am looking for a different kind of ability, but I can recognize the cost dropped.


However how high does your Strength need to be for it to be worthwhile in the first place?
16Str would make the results close (1d10+3+3=11.5 & 2d6+3+1=11) however you are paying 1-2 feats and a level

Weapon Specialization Greatsword vs EWM BS (1d10+11+11=27.5 & 2d6+11+5+4=27) requires 32Str to favor EWM, Weapon Specialization is a bad feat, and we still haven't counted the lost level

If we pretend the lost level is worth another Weapon Specialization (It is actually worth more) then:

Weapon Specialization x2 Greatsword (2d6+21+10+8=46)
EWM BS (1d10+21+21=47.5)
EWM comes ahead at 52 Str


Weapon Specialization only adds 2 damage not 4, which would change your formula a bit, but your point still stays valid. :smallsmile:

As for the case of the TOB I believe the EWM would be of even less use because most maneuvers are single attacks and benefit less from a strength bonus since it generally equates to weapon damage + str bonus + maneuver bonus, when compared to (Weapon damage + str bonus) times the number of attacks you get.

[animewatcha]

Another thing to look at when it comes to damage of weapon is what size you are gonna be. Larger size, larger weapon size damage on the charts. Just ask the half-minotaur with it's Large size AND with it's +12 to str.. Large bastard sword goes from Medium to Colossal at rate of 1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8. Greatsword from Medium to colossal at rate of 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6.

[MHCD]

Another thing to look at when it comes to damage of weapon is what size you are gonna be. Larger size, larger weapon size damage on the charts. Just ask the half-minotaur with it's Large size AND with it's +12 to str.. Large bastard sword goes from Medium to Colossal at rate of 1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8. Greatsword from Medium to colossal at rate of 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6.

That's why you spend your EWP on the Heavy Weapon version of your weapon of choice, right? You're already spending the feat, after all. A heavy bastard sword's base damage is 2d6.

[Yael]

Off topic, tho (but still related), in the World of Warcraft RPG, there's a weapon material called Thorium, which especifically adds another x0.5 Str to your two handed damage, but the downside is that you need an Exotic Weapon Proficiency especifically for (Thorium Weapons). Also, in Sword and Sorcery's Plot & Poison, there's a feat called Strong Two-Handed Attack, which adds another x0.5 Str. Using a bastard sword (for example), two handed, (to count as martial, but still exotic), made of thorium, being a warblade or swordsage, and a dip to EWM, you get Str x2.5, which isn't that good compared to some maneuvers, but still, the more you know (3rd party heavy~)

Also, Plot and Poison's Spell Addict... :'(

[animewatcha]

That's why you spend your EWP on the Heavy Weapon version of your weapon of choice, right? You're already spending the feat, after all. A heavy bastard sword's base damage is 2d6.

Exotic heavy greatsword. heavy Greatsword 3d6. Heck, get goliath in there. Large Heavy bastard sword - 3d8. Large Heavy Greatsword - 4d6.