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TiaC
2016-09-14, 07:10 PM
So, since people have expressed interest, I will be running MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind again.


Three Card Blind is a forum-based Magic game in which in every round, each player PMs three cards to the host (TiaC). These cards make up your entire deck; you begin each game with those cards in your hand, and you play against each other player twice (one going first, and once going second). These matches are not really "played" as such; I simply looks at each player's cards, and figures out who would win. You get 3 points for each win, 1 points for each draw, and 0 points for each loss. Since you play each opponent twice, that means that you can get up to 6 points per opponent. Whoever has the most points after playing everybody wins the round.

There are many variations of Three Card Blind. In Vanishing Three Card Blind, there is a list of banned cards that nobody can put into their decks. In the first round, there are no banned cards. After that, the cards from the winning deck (or decks, in case of a tie) are added to the ban list. The only cards which are exempt from being banned are basic lands, the Fallen Empires and Mercadian Masques storage lands, and the Time Spiral dual storage lands.

Also, there are four cycles of lands with a special rule. Once every card in one of these cycles has been banned, the entire cycle will be unbanned. These cycles are:
The Invasion saclands
The Fallen Empires saclands
The Ravnica block Karoos
The Masques block Depletion lands

Some additional rules:

All sets and promos are legal, including Unglued and Unhinged. However, any cards that have a random effect (such as Mana Clash), or require some form of physical or mental dexterity (such as Charm School or Question Elemental) are assumed to go against the person using them in their deck (so Mana Clash would give you 20 tails in a row, Charm School falls off your head immediately, and you get an uncontrollable urge to recite epic poetry once your Question Elemental comes into play, at which point your opponent reveals themself to be The Riddler.) Edit: to be clear, you can use the Un-cards that require you to do some physical action, provided it is not intended to be a feat of dexterity. So Knight of the Hokey Pokey works, Goblin Mime does not.

You don't lose the game from being unable to draw a card, but the draw still tries to happen, so you are allowed to use cards such as the Onslaught Words enchantments, which allow you to skip drawing a card for some effect.

Perfect play is assumed, and during the games, each player knows what the other player has. So your opponent won't play their Akroma if you have a Control Magic, and you always know what to name for your Cabal Therapy

In a situation where neither player can or wants to act, the game is a draw. So if your opponent's deck is Foil, Island, and Nether Spirit, and you would be unable to survive against a 2/2 that comes back every turn, you simply don't play any spells at all, and your opponent never has a way to play Foil and thus discard the Spirit. Since neither player is doing anything, it's a draw.

In the event of a card that can draw on cards from outside the game such as the wishes or Research, you may have a sideboard of three cards to draw from.

You don't get any mana to start out with, so your three cards must include something that can get you the mana you need (the aforementioned storage lands are a big help here).

If you think I made a mistake on the results, make a post saying so. He'll look it over and change the results if you're right, or explain why if you're wrong.

When a new set is out, the cards in it will be legal once a round starts with the set available in Gatherer.

I will run rounds at least weekly provided I have at least four decks.

You may send in decks for multiple rounds ahead of time. If your deck contains banned cards or relies on some rules misconception, I'll use the next deck in line.

If you aren't sure whether your deck works or not, PM me and I'll let you know. You can also PM me if you've changed your mind about your deck and want to submit a different one for the round.

Finally, I am not a judge, so if you think I made a mistake in scoring, please tell me.
Other information:
Old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329029-MTG-Vanishing-Three-Card-Blind)
Example of Play (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000397-collectible-card-games-magic-the-gathering/59704001)

For current ban list, see latest result posts.

tgva8889
2016-09-15, 08:00 PM
To clarify, are planes, conspiracies, schemes, etc. legal as choices for my 3 cards, or not?

TiaC
2016-09-15, 08:12 PM
To clarify, are planes, conspiracies, schemes, etc. legal as choices for my 3 cards, or not?

No, they are not. Thanks for asking, I realize that wasn't clear.

I think I will take a page from the second thread I linked in the opening post and run special rounds every so often. Those rounds will have variant rules applied.

I'll run the first round soon.

Jormengand
2016-09-16, 01:09 PM
I have a potentially hilarious but probably not going to win deck idea. Should I PM it to you right now, or what?

TiaC
2016-09-16, 02:01 PM
I have a potentially hilarious but probably not going to win deck idea. Should I PM it to you right now, or what?

Don't be shy, you can always send in a deck, even if it can't win.

TiaC
2016-09-16, 10:50 PM
Round 12 Rises from the grave, hungry for blood!

Fable Wright: Hickory Woodlot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19646), Channel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382882), Ulamog the Infinite Gyre (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397815)
Gauntlet: Cabal Pit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29904), Thoughtseize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373632), Death's Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198372)
Bucky: Mishra's Factory (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2387), Mox Pearl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34), Balance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413544)
Ninjaman: Thespian's Stage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366353), Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416746), Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567)
tgva8889: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9844), Cenn's Tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Swords to Plowshares (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413574)
Bobb: Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202494), Leyline of the meek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107699), Devastating Summons (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194927)
ben-zayb: Hickory Woodlot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19646), Channel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382882), Ulamog the Infinite Gyre (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397815)
Jormengand: Kher Keep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376391), Izzet Boilerworks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=405267), Shared Animosity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157433)
Dr.Gunsforhands: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324), Alaborn Zealot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6492)


Fable Wright: Hickory Woodlot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19646), Channel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382882), Ulamog the Infinite Gyre (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397815)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (0)
Vs. Bucky: DD (2)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (8)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (10)
Vs. Bobb: WW (16)
Vs. ben-zayb: WL (19)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (25)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: DL (26)

Gauntlet: Cabal Pit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29904), Thoughtseize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373632), Death's Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198372)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Bucky: WD (10)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (10)
Vs. tgva8889: DL (11)
Vs. Bobb: WD (15)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (21)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (23)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: DD (25)

Bucky: Mishra's Factory (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2387), Mox Pearl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34), Balance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413544)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (2)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (9)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (15)
Vs. Bobb: DD (17)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (19)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (25)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: WW (31)

Ninjaman: Thespian's Stage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366353), Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416746), Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (6)
Vs. Bucky: LL (6)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (6)
Vs. Bobb: WW (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (18)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: WW (24)

tgva8889: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9844), Cenn's Tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Swords to Plowshares (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413574)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (2)
Vs. Gauntlet: WD (6)
Vs. Bucky: LL (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (12)
Vs. Bobb: WW (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (20)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (20)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: WD (24)

Bobb: Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202494), Leyline of the meek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107699), Devastating Summons (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194927)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (2)
Vs. Bucky: DL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (3)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (3)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (3)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (9)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: WD (13)

ben-zayb: Hickory Woodlot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19646), Channel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382882), Ulamog the Infinite Gyre (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397815)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (3)
Vs. Bucky: DD (5)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (11)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (13)
Vs. Bobb: WW (19)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (25)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: DL (26)

Jormengand: Kher Keep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376391), Izzet Boilerworks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=405267), Shared Animosity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157433)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (2)
Vs. Bucky: LL (2)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (2)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (8)
Vs. Bobb: LL (8)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (8)
Vs. Dr.Gunsforhands: DD (10)

Dr.Gunsforhands: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324), Alaborn Zealot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6492)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (4)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (6)
Vs. Bucky: LL (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (6)
Vs. tgva8889: DL (7)
Vs. Bobb: DL (8)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (12)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (14)

Gold: Bucky
Silver: Fable Wright, ben-zayb
Bronze: Gauntlet
Tactical Depths: Ninjaman, tgva8889
Piously violent: Dr.Gunsforhands
Devastated: Bobb
Boiling over: Jormengand

Well, we're back with a big round. Bucky manages a narrow win in a diverse field with the powerful disruption of Balance. Fable Wright and ben-zayb do quite well with the power of a second-turn Eldrazi. However, competition for second is strong, and they edge out with Ninjaman who is a little slower but better able to deal with disruption and tgva8889, whose ability to exile proves valuable against a field of indestructible creatures. Gauntlet makes a deck that's amazingly frustrating to score. Bobb goes for speed over power and steals a few wins. Dr.Gunsforhands plays very defensively to some success. Finally, Jormengand makes a cool combo, but as predicted, not a very effective one.


Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, Strip Mine, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Memnite, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Entomber Exarch

Blue: Daze, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Round 13 opens now. Feeling lucky?

Fable Wright
2016-09-16, 11:33 PM
Hm. I'm kinda curious why it wasn't a draw for the Channel-Ulamog-Woodlot deck and the Balance deck. Sure, if the Balance deck gets the play, it goes turn 1 balance and forces us to discard our hands—but then Ulamog reshuffles them into our library, and the 10-turn clock of Mishra's workshop can't win in the three turns it takes for us to redraw our combo. Whoever casts their winning spell first, Channel or Balance, is inevitably the loser. This seems like the archetypical draw scenario to me.

Also stumped on the Balance vs Devastating Summons and Channel-Ulamog vs Alaborn Zealot matchups. I feel like I'm missing something here.

TiaC
2016-09-17, 12:01 AM
Hm. I'm kinda curious why it wasn't a draw for the Channel-Ulamog-Woodlot deck and the Balance deck. Sure, if the Balance deck gets the play, it goes turn 1 balance and forces us to discard our hands—but then Ulamog reshuffles them into our library, and the 10-turn clock of Mishra's workshop can't win in the three turns it takes for us to redraw our combo. Whoever casts their winning spell first, Channel or Balance, is inevitably the loser. This seems like the archetypical draw scenario to me.

Also stumped on the Channel-Ulamog vs Alaborn Zealot matchup. I feel like I'm missing something here.

You're right, it is actually a draw. (I had it that way at first, but I second-guessed myself.) He doesn't play anything until you play Ulamog. Then he forces you to sacrifice him and you cannot afford to replay him because he costs 11 life a pop. So, you don't play, so he doesn't either. That moves you to second.

Against the Plains, Mana Tithe, Alaborn Zealot deck, it's the Mana Tithe that stops you. Going first, he plays the zealot and can still counter your Channel, while going second, he's forced to hold mana back to counter.

As for the Balance-Summons match, Balance will destroy the Factory because the summons deck has no land. So he can't clear the field and win and he can't outrace it either. However, he can stop it by either blocking and pumping or using the balance.

Fable Wright
2016-09-17, 12:41 AM
Against the Plains, Mana Tithe, Alaborn Zealot deck, it's the Mana Tithe that stops you. Going first, he plays the zealot and can still counter your Channel, while going second, he's forced to hold mana back to counter.

As for the Balance-Summons match, Balance will destroy the Factory because the summons deck has no land. So he can't clear the field and win and he can't outrace it either. However, he can stop it by either blocking and pumping or using the balance.

Oh, makes sense. I missed the citp on the depletion lands due to its weird placing, and the latter explanation makes sense. Carry on, then.

ben-zayb
2016-09-17, 01:58 AM
Funny, because I was anticipating a mirror match of sorts.:smalltongue:

Tom the Mime
2016-09-17, 07:46 PM
No planes? But the dreampods deck was so fun. Also, I'm kinda surprised channel was still around given how much it was used earlier

tgva8889
2016-09-17, 08:21 PM
Would you mind bolding the newly-banned cards each round? I generally remember what gets banned, but it's several steps for me to figure out what's different each time.

Also, I'm so sad that I didn't use Mox Pearl, as that would have given me draws instead of losses against the balance match. It's a lot of fun trying to remember what all the actually good strategies are in this game.

Gauntlet
2016-09-18, 10:09 AM
I don't see how I get draws against Bobb.

On the play, I can Thoughtseize Devastating Summons and then kill him since he doesn't do anything.

On the draw I can wait for him to hit me down to <13 life (or tap cabal pit if he doesn't attack), wait till I have an 8/8 and 5 life, and attack - if he blocks he loses a 2/2, and puts me to 3 on the backswing, I swing for 10 and then he puts me to 1 before dying. If he doesn't block, he goes to 12, puts me to 1 on the backswing, then dies to my 12/12.

TiaC
2016-09-18, 12:45 PM
I don't see how I get draws against Bobb.

On the play, I can Thoughtseize Devastating Summons and then kill him since he doesn't do anything.

On the draw I can wait for him to hit me down to <13 life (or tap cabal pit if he doesn't attack), wait till I have an 8/8 and 5 life, and attack - if he blocks he loses a 2/2, and puts me to 3 on the backswing, I swing for 10 and then he puts me to 1 before dying. If he doesn't block, he goes to 12, puts me to 1 on the backswing, then dies to my 12/12.

On the play, you're absolutely correct. I don't know what I was thinking.

However, on the draw, it's a little different. When you attack for 8, he doesn't block and swings back for 2. Now, you're at 3 with a 10/10. If you tap the pit, he attacks and kills you. If you attack, he hits back and kills you. So, it's a draw.

Gauntlet
2016-09-19, 11:17 AM
Question: What does Booster Tutor do in this format?

TiaC
2016-09-19, 01:16 PM
Question: What does Booster Tutor do in this format?

The general rule is that you have a three-card sideboard to draw from. So, in keeping with that and the no hidden information rule, I'm going to say that you pick a set of three cards that could theoretically be found in a single booster when you send in your deck and it fetches you one of those.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-19, 03:13 PM
The general rule is that you have a three-card sideboard to draw from. So, in keeping with that and the no hidden information rule, I'm going to say that you pick a set of three cards that could theoretically be found in a single booster when you send in your deck and it fetches you one of those.
I don't think it'd be much use anyway but I would've thought the bad luck applying to random events would apply here and you wouldn't get any useful cards from the sealed booster.

Fable Wright
2016-09-19, 03:45 PM
The general rule is that you have a three-card sideboard to draw from. So, in keeping with that and the no hidden information rule, I'm going to say that you pick a set of three cards that could theoretically be found in a single booster when you send in your deck and it fetches you one of those.

What happens with something like Research that nabs 4 cards?

TiaC
2016-09-19, 04:59 PM
I don't think it'd be much use anyway but I would've thought the bad luck applying to random events would apply here and you wouldn't get any useful cards from the sealed booster.

That would be one way to play it, but then someone would submit a deck that could always cast whatever it got and force me to work out what would be the worst booster they could open of the named set.

I was thinking that perfect information would mean that you would know the contents of the booster before opening it and be able to pick the right booster and name three cards from it as your sideboard. I think I'll stick with that because it doesn't seem more powerful than the wishes due to needing to be cards from the same set.

Edit: I also try not to make cards completely useless. This is part of why you still have draw steps even without libraries, so that cards that replace draws or shuffle cards into your library work.


What happens with something like Research that nabs 4 cards?

Since it nabs up to 4 cards, you would only be able to get three. They would go into your library in the worst order for you.

Bucky
2016-09-20, 12:24 PM
Are we allowed to switch decks within a round by sending in an updated decklist?


----
Regarding Booster Tutor, by the existing rules the player casting the Tutor chooses an expansion, the other player chooses the appropriate number of cards of each rarity from that expansion, and the caster chooses one of those. In practice, this would mean a choice between a basic land and an uncastable spell.

TiaC
2016-09-20, 03:13 PM
Are we allowed to switch decks within a round by sending in an updated decklist?


----
Regarding Booster Tutor, by the existing rules the player casting the Tutor chooses an expansion, the other player chooses the appropriate number of cards of each rarity from that expansion, and the caster chooses one of those. In practice, this would mean a choice between a basic land and an uncastable spell.

You can always change your deck until I've posted the results.

I think I will continue to treat Booster Tutor as hidden information rather than a random event. If you know what's in the pack before you open it you can get the cards you want 100% of the time. However, you can still only pick cards from your sideboard. So, you must name three cards when you send in your deck.

Edit: I have a lot of decks, so I'm going to post the round.

TiaC
2016-09-20, 06:13 PM
Round 13 is on! Hope no one has Triskaidekaphobia!


Jormengand:Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383425), Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416746), Vampire Hexmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389735)
ben-zayb: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Vault Skirge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217984), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
tgva8889: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892), Infernal Spawn of Evil (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9779)
Tom the Mime: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Soldevi Sentry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3059), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Fable Wright: Ancient Spring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23236), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066), Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382201)
Gauntlet: R&D's Secret Lair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73967), Lion's Eye Diamond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3255), Elvish Farmer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184484)
food: Maze of Ith (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413783), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Blinkmoth Nexus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397660)
Ninjaman: Slippery Boggle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=150999), The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201236), Forest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712)
Bucky: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Lotus Petal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397468), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270445)



Jormengand:Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383425), Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416746), Vampire Hexmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389735)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (1)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (1)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (2)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (5)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (5)
Vs. food: DD (7)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (13)
Vs. Bucky: DL (14)

ben-zayb: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Vault Skirge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217984), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. Jormengand: WD (4)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (12)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (16)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (16)
Vs. food: DD (18)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (24)
Vs. Bucky: LL (24)

tgva8889: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892), Infernal Spawn of Evil (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9779)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (8)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (10)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (16)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (19)
Vs. food: WW (25)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (31)
Vs. Bucky: DL (32)

Tom the Mime: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Soldevi Sentry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3059), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. Jormengand: WD (4)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (4)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (10)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (10)
Vs. food: DD (12)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (18)
Vs. Bucky: LL (18)

Fable Wright: Ancient Spring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23236), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066), Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382201)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (3)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (4)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (4)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (5)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (5)
Vs. food: LL (5)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (7)
Vs. Bucky: LL (7)

Gauntlet: R&D's Secret Lair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73967), Lion's Eye Diamond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3255), Elvish Farmer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184484)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (12)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (15)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (21)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (27)
Vs. food: WW (33)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (35)
Vs. Bucky: WW (41)

food: Maze of Ith (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413783), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Blinkmoth Nexus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397660)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (2)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (4)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (4)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (12)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (18)
Vs. Bucky: LL (18)

Ninjaman: Slippery Boggle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=150999), The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201236), Forest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (2)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (4)
Vs. food: LL (4)
Vs. Bucky: LL (4)

Bucky: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Lotus Petal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397468), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270445)
Vs. Jormengand: WD (4)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (10)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (14)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (20)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (26)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (26)
Vs. food: WW (32)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (38)

Gold: Gauntlet
Silver: Bucky
Bronze: tgva8889
Misstepped: ben-zayb
The Misstep Two-step: Tom the Mime, food
Entombed: Jormengand
Sprung: Fable Wright
Slipped: Ninjaman

This round was defined by Ghost Quarter, with nearly half the decks containing it. Bucky's deck made the best use of it. Despite Thalia's ability never coming up, merely having a 2/1 first strike was enough to win a lot of matches. Gauntlet used one of the more irritating Unhinged cards to judge and removed it from the pool, so that's a win for me. Ninjaman's deck was able to beat him after an arbitrarily large yet still finite number of turns. There are some rather powerful decks still out there it would seem.

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Entomber Exarch

Blue: Daze, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Round 14 begins not with a bang but a whimper.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-20, 06:37 PM
Could you clarify how you think r&d interacts with gauntlets other cards? Can't see how it'd let you play the farmer before the discard or otherwise get around anything.

TiaC
2016-09-20, 06:51 PM
Could you clarify how you think r&d interacts with gauntlets other cards? Can't see how it'd let you play the farmer before the discard or otherwise get around anything.

Mana abilities can be activated as part of casting a spell, by which point the spell is on the stack. Lion's Eye Diamond has therefore been given errata saying "Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant." Without that, it can be used to cast a spell.

As to the Elvish farmer, since the removal of counters and sacrifice of creatures is not part of the cost of either ability, they can be activated even if the farmer has no counters on it or no Saprolings are in play. They will remove counters (even if there are none) or make him sacrifice a Saproling (even if he doesn't have any) and then create a Saproling or give him 2 life. So, he can get as many 1/1s and as much life as he wants.

Bucky
2016-09-20, 09:12 PM
I should have WW vs. food. I always Ghost Quarter the Maze pre-combat on my second turn. He can't attack on his second turn because Cathedral ETBT or the Nexus is summoning sick. He can't block profitably because of First Strike. So I win the race.


On the other hand, I don't see my draw line vs. Gauntlet.

-----

Do we need to specify which versions of each card we're using in case of R&D's Secret Lair?


-----

I disagree on your interpretation of pre-errata Elvish Farmer. I interpret "Sacrifice a Saproling to gain 2 life" to be equivalent to the modern "Sacrifice a Saproling. If you do, gain 2 life".

TiaC
2016-09-20, 10:36 PM
I should have WW vs. food. I always Ghost Quarter the Maze pre-combat on my second turn. He can't attack on his second turn because Cathedral ETBT or the Nexus is summoning sick. He can't block profitably because of First Strike. So I win the race.


On the other hand, I don't see my draw line vs. Gauntlet.

-----

Do we need to specify which versions of each card we're using in case of R&D's Secret Lair?


-----

I disagree on your interpretation of pre-errata Elvish Farmer. I interpret "Sacrifice a Saproling to gain 2 life" to be equivalent to the modern "Sacrifice a Saproling. If you do, gain 2 life".

I missed the ETBT on cathedral, so you do WW vs. food.
Against Gauntlet, you don't play Thalia and ghost quarter the lair as soon as it enters play. Since the diamond and farmer aren't instants he can't respond and he can't cast the farmer without the lair.

You do (and Gauntlet did) need to specify version for the Lair if you play it. if it's your opponent's lair, you are assumed to use the best version for you.

As to the Farmer, I would say it is closer to effects that look like "tap target creature, that creature gets...". You can target a creature even if it's already tapped. Similarly, you can remove counters from the farmer even if it doesn't have any. It's more clear-cut for the first ability, because there are already cards that remove counters from cards without counters. e.g. Ebon Praetor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184482) allows you to sacrifice a Thrull for +1/+0 even if it doesn't have any -2/-2 counters.

food
2016-09-20, 11:21 PM
I think I beat jormengand. They can never get more than 1 creature so maze holds them off while blink moth flies over.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-20, 11:41 PM
I missed the ETBT on cathedral, so you do WW vs. food.
Against Gauntlet, you don't play Thalia and ghost quarter the lair as soon as it enters play. Since the diamond and farmer aren't instants he can't respond and he can't cast the farmer without the lair.
.
I'm pretty sure of the following but not 100%. Gauntlet plays diamond first and then plays the lair. Playing a land doesn't shift priority so gauntlet plays farmer and at mana source speed for diamond sac, land destruction only means the farmer abilities can't be abused. This doesn't matter though as Bucky now has no way to get Thalia out and the token every three turns gets him eventually. WW


I think I beat jormengand. They can never get more than 1 creature so maze holds them off while blink moth flies over.
Dark depths also flies. DD

Also, although it's being picky grammatically (you kind of have to be for the lair), I agree with Bucky for farmer as how it is phrased literally would be the same as 0: this card gains the ability "remove three spore counters: create a 1/1 saproling token". The ebon praetor example isn't valid as sacrificing the creature is the cost there. For it to be analogous you would have to be able to sacrifice a creature when you have no creatures. The errata seems to be for clarity rather than an actual rule change. That being said, it should still be allowed for this round given Gauntlet clearly checked with you beforehand and changing now wouldn't be fair if they'd got confirmation beforehand.

Bucky
2016-09-20, 11:59 PM
Re: Farmer

The issue is the word "to", indicating here that the second part of the effect is dependent on the first.

It sticks out to me because it happens to be the standard wording a different card game uses for nonstandard costs.

TiaC
2016-09-21, 12:26 AM
I'm pretty sure of the following but not 100%. Gauntlet plays diamond first and then plays the lair. Playing a land doesn't shift priority so gauntlet plays farmer and at mana source speed for diamond sac, land destruction only means the farmer abilities can't be abused. This doesn't matter though as Bucky now has no way to get Thalia out and the token every three turns gets him eventually. WW

Ug, that seems to be right. That makes him WW against all the ghost quarter decks except tgva8889's, putting him in first place.



Also, although it's being picky grammatically (you kind of have to be for the lair), I agree with Bucky for farmer as how it is phrased literally would be the same as 0: this card gains the ability "remove three spore counters: create a 1/1 saproling token". The ebon praetor example isn't valid as sacrificing the creature is the cost there. For it to be analogous you would have to be able to sacrifice a creature when you have no creatures. The errata seems to be for clarity rather than an actual rule change. That being said, it should still be allowed for this round given Gauntlet clearly checked with you beforehand and changing now wouldn't be fair if they'd got confirmation beforehand.

I'm less sure about the Farmer's second activated ability, but he doesn't need it. My point is that for the first activated ability, since removing counters is not a cost, he can remove counters even if there are none and then get his 1/1. Happily though, with the change in the standings, the card is now banned and I never have to make a ruling for it again.

Bucky
2016-09-21, 02:32 AM
Ug, that seems to be right. That makes him WW against all the ghost quarter decks except tgva8889's, putting him in first place.

Can we please wait longer before firing off the next round so that we have a chance to figure out how to deal with the changed banlist?

Ninjaman
2016-09-21, 03:36 PM
How exactly do I beat Gauntlet?


I should have used my other deck idea, and that required Lion's eye diamond so now I can't do that.

TiaC
2016-09-21, 04:34 PM
Can we please wait longer before firing off the next round so that we have a chance to figure out how to deal with the changed banlist?

I'm not quite sure how this would work. Given that you can send in decks for multiple rounds ahead of time, restricting submissions for a few days after a round seems silly. I could give a minimum time between rounds so that you can wait a few days and still be sure of getting in the next round?


How exactly do I beat Gauntlet?


I should have used my other deck idea, and that required Lion's eye diamond so now I can't do that.

You don't, sorry. I thought the lair didn't tap for mana. However, since he can only pay for one creature, you do still draw.

Bucky
2016-09-21, 05:57 PM
I think I beat tgva8889 going second by racing. He needs to play Ghost Quarter on turn 1 (or I Ghost Quarter the Hanger), Hanger is tapped on turn 2, charges 9 times (3-11) and is finally untapped to cast Infernal Spawn on turn 12. But he died on my turn 11.

TiaC
2016-09-21, 06:09 PM
I think I beat tgva8889 going second by racing. He needs to play Ghost Quarter on turn 1 (or I Ghost Quarter the Hanger), Hanger is tapped on turn 2, charges 9 times (3-11) and is finally untapped to cast Infernal Spawn on turn 12. But he died on my turn 11.

If he plays the hanger turn 1, you can't both ghost quarter it and play Thalia on your turn 1, so he can quarter your quarter if you play Thalia and cast it on his turn 11.

tgva8889
2016-09-22, 04:10 PM
I'm just glad I got to use Infernal Spawn of Evil.

Also, I'm 90% sure that R&D's Secret Lair doesn't do anything interesting with Elvish Farmer at all. The intervening "to" in the wording means that while you can activate the abilities freely, when they try to resolve they only do something if you can actually do the first part. It mostly just lets you play LED as Black Lotus.

It's pretty amusing to look at what people bring each round. The Devastating Summons deck amusingly doesn't do too bad in this round, though it loses hard to Mental Misstep.

TiaC
2016-09-22, 04:24 PM
I'm just glad I got to use Infernal Spawn of Evil.

Also, I'm 90% sure that R&D's Secret Lair doesn't do anything interesting with Elvish Farmer at all. The intervening "to" in the wording means that while you can activate the abilities freely, when they try to resolve they only do something if you can actually do the first part. It mostly just lets you play LED as Black Lotus

Ok, I've explained my position on this a few times already and I refuse to have it out again. I let him submit the deck without objection. The word to means nothing by the rules, it's done, the stupid card is banned, just drop it and let's all move on.

On a lighter note, I was thinking that rounds divisible by five would be special rounds with some change to the rules. Any ideas of things you'd like see?

tgva8889
2016-09-22, 04:30 PM
Wasn't trying to start an argument, just putting in my two cents.

If you want special round suggestions, I've played a lot of hilarious special rounds so I can put up some suggestions if you'd like.

Fable Wright
2016-09-22, 04:52 PM
Something with Schemes could be interesting.

TiaC
2016-09-22, 07:15 PM
Wasn't trying to start an argument, just putting in my two cents.

I know, but I've really had enough of that argument and never want to think about it again.


If you want special round suggestions, I've played a lot of hilarious special rounds so I can put up some suggestions if you'd like.


Something with Schemes could be interesting.

Schemes could be interesting, I worry that there are too few that would be useful in this format.

I'd be interested in any more suggestions.

Dr.Gunsforhands
2016-09-22, 07:31 PM
Well... there's a new set coming out, right? What if we did one where all of the cards had to come from Kaladesh? I have no idea what the possibilities would be.

Fable Wright
2016-09-22, 08:54 PM
Well... there's a new set coming out, right? What if we did one where all of the cards had to come from Kaladesh? I have no idea what the possibilities would be.

The problem is that new sets have very limited selections of 1 drops and zero fast mana or mana batteries, making deck design much less interesting than the norm for VTCB.

Bucky
2016-09-22, 09:08 PM
I see 5 medium-relevant cards (e.g. Fragmentize) and a usable cycle of dual lands but nothing near the average quality of the current decks.

ben-zayb
2016-09-22, 09:23 PM
How about we use 1 card from Kaladesh? Yes, it could even be a basic forest, if that's what you need.

Fable Wright
2016-09-22, 09:30 PM
How about we use 1 card from Kaladesh? Yes, it could even be a basic forest, if that's what you need.

This still precludes so many decks, though.

What I could see is adding something to the round, rather than taking something away. For example, at the beginning of each upkeep in this round, you get one energy counter. Use it how or if you want to... but remember that the only cards that benefit from this rule come from Kaladesh. So that new mechanic gets an edge, but players aren't punished for ignoring it this time around.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-22, 09:53 PM
Precluding those decks open up other decks that could be viable now so it evens out.

An energy counter per upkeep would probably just be ignored. Adding something seems interesting - maybe each stating with a specific artifact or enchantment (or just 1 symmetric one or a plane) and see who can beat taken advantage or work around it.

Dr.Gunsforhands
2016-09-22, 10:02 PM
Hmm... Yeah, I guess any modern set is going to have an easily-discerned optimal play in this format. So, never mind there.

From the direction this conversation is going, it sounds like what we really want out of the special round is something like a 5-card blind. Same basic rules, same banlist, completely different meta.

Bucky
2016-09-22, 10:13 PM
Hmm... Yeah, I guess any modern set is going to have an easily-discerned optimal play in this format. So, never mind there.

It's usually more a rock-paper-scissors than a single top deck.

P.S. Going to 5 cards isn't too different; I'm mostly using the same philosophy at 3 cards that I did at 4.

If you want that sort of special round, how about "start with a tapped Wastes on the battlefield"? It gets the feel of a larger hand size by unlocking bigger spells without actually requiring more complex decks.

TiaC
2016-09-22, 10:51 PM
A few special rounds I've considered:

Conspiracies are legal.

Everyone begins the game with a land that has "T: add one mana of any color to your mana pool" in play.

You can give me a 4-card deck as long as at least 3 are from Kaladesh, or a 5-card deck if they're all from Kaladesh. (Basic lands count as Kaladesh)

All players have an emblem with the text of Words of Worship (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=40189).

All players skip their combat step.

You get a fourth card, but it must be a Planeswalker.

Commander TCB. You have a commander and must follow deckbuilding rules for commander except for deck size.

Bucky
2016-09-22, 11:10 PM
A few special rounds I've considered:

Conspiracies are legal.

Fine but obvious.



Everyone begins the game with a land that has "T: add one mana of any color to your mana pool" in play.

I strongly prefer the Wastes version.



You can give me a 4-card deck as long as at least 3 are from Kaladesh, or a 5-card deck if they're all from Kaladesh. (Basic lands count as Kaladesh)

I think this would become a less interesting version of a normal round, because Kaladesh decks generally can't compete but push certain other decks out of the metagame.



All players have an emblem with the text of Words of Worship (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=40189).
Feels excessively drawish.



All players skip their combat step.

Feels even more excessively drawish.



You get a fourth card, but it must be a Planeswalker.

lol



Commander TCB. You have a commander and must follow deckbuilding rules for commander except for deck size.
Pretty good. Is our deck size commander+2 or commander+3?

TiaC
2016-09-22, 11:30 PM
Fine but obvious.

They seem the type of special card least likely to break everything.


I strongly prefer the Wastes version.

I can see arguments both ways.


I think this would become a less interesting version of a normal round, because Kaladesh decks generally can't compete but push certain other decks out of the metagame.

How so? I would assume that the larger decks would balance things out some.


Feels excessively drawish.

It's meant to encourage big threats. I'm not seeing how it would create more draws, because every threat people played would be able to punch through the life gain.


Feels even more excessively drawish.

Again, why? People would just play non-creature win conditions. No one would play the sort of deck that would be forced into a draw by this.


lol

Yeah, many people would just ignore the planeswalker, but some would cast them. Ignoring it does mean giving up on the extra card.


Pretty good. Is our deck size commander+2 or commander+3?

Commander +3

Bucky
2016-09-22, 11:58 PM
I can back up the "excessively drawish" with specific concerns, but I don't want to publish those strategies.

TiaC
2016-09-23, 12:24 AM
I can back up the "excessively drawish" with specific concerns, but I don't want to publish those strategies.

Feel free to PM me, although thinking on it I can see some issues.

I suppose words of worship emblem makes fast disruption very effective while no combat makes counterspells and ways to gain hexproof too good.

A few other thoughts:

Five-card blind, commons only.

All creatures have haste, no lands come into play tapped.

All creatures have persist, all instants and sorceries have flashback (cost=mana cost.)

Players and permanents have hexproof.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-23, 02:48 AM
A few special rounds I've considered:

Conspiracies are legal.

Everyone begins the game with a land that has "T: add one mana of any color to your mana pool" in play.

You can give me a 4-card deck as long as at least 3 are from Kaladesh, or a 5-card deck if they're all from Kaladesh. (Basic lands count as Kaladesh)

All players have an emblem with the text of ]Words of Worship.

All players skip their combat step.

You get a fourth card, but it must be a Planeswalker.

Commander TCB. You have a commander and must follow deckbuilding rules for commander except for deck size.

Conspiracies - I can't think of any that would be worth the slot. Power play would've been okay when the banlist was shorter so you could be disrupt and have an offense with a 2 drop. Now that'd be turn 2 anyway so you lose the advantage you got

Free rainbow land - turn 1 Ulamog possible to destroy the land but so is force spike at the same time so not sure. I think wastes would be nicer as a lighter version of this

Kaladesh - could be interesting, especially if Kaladesh inventions are also allowed. There's enough there to work with for a good 4 and 5 allows you plan b against opponents disruption

Words of worship - not sure

No combat - I like the idea but it feels like you balmost need a non basic land or lotus bloom for a win viable win con so it feels like it goes to a rock paper scissors between speed, non basic land destruction and chalice of the void (or discard against the lotus bloom)

Planeswalker - would the origins transforming walkers count?

Commander - probably just boils down to having an additional playable creature with a possible interesting extra dimension for racing with a slightly different wincon

Bucky
2016-09-23, 04:31 AM
Conspiracies - I can't think of any that would be worth the slot. Power play would've been okay when the banlist was shorter so you could be disrupt and have an offense with a 2 drop. Now that'd be turn 2 anyway so you lose the advantage you got

I disagree; I've got three archetypes using different conspiracies that all look competitive within their metagame niche.



Free rainbow land - turn 1 Ulamog possible to destroy the land but so is force spike at the same time so not sure. I think wastes would be nicer as a lighter version of this

Yup, the rainbow land version is totally broken.



Commander - probably just boils down to having an additional playable creature with a possible interesting extra dimension for racing with a slightly different wincon
It's way different because storage lands for replaying commanders are at a premium.

tgva8889
2016-09-23, 10:46 PM
1) Each player names a (nonland) card with their deck submission. The named card can't be played in games with that deck.
2) [An enchantment/artifact] is in play as an emblem that affects all players.
3) Instant and Sorcery spells have storm/flashback equal to their mana cost/rebound/probably other interesting mechanics.
4) Creatures have haste/double strike/trample/echo equal to their mana cost/probably other interesting mechanics.
5) Each player adds [a large number of] cards with no card type (or are alternatively basic lands), mana cost, or game text to their library at the start of the game. Optionally add "you can lose to drawing from an empty library."
6) [A plane] is in play.
7) Each player submits a plane with their deck. The players begin the game on all planes that are chosen by any player in the game simultaneously, as if the first plane flipped in a normal game of Planechase was Spatial Merging (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226546).
8) Players may play cards from exile.
9) Players may play cards from their graveyard.
10) Players start at [not 20] life.
11) [Specific subsets of] spells cost X more/less to cast.
12) Activated abilities that aren't mana abilities cost X more/less to activate.
13) Players may use C to pay for any color of mana.
14) Lands are all basic land types in addition to their normal land types.
15) Choose 2 formats from [list of provided options]

There's a bunch I can remember doing and being interesting.

I feel like Words of Worship (and really all of the Words) either result in lots of draws or 0 draws. If you're fine with that, cool. You definitely don't want to do Words of Worship while any form of land disruption is legal, because most of the big threats are not going to work if you can't have a consistent mana source or a growing mana source. Discard is also probably bad for this format. Frankly I foresee a lot of issues with it.

Also, once the banned list gets large enough, we should consider rotating bans, where the winner's deck is banned and they get to unban cards so that we're not eventually playing with the same piles of mediocre cards without many options.

TiaC
2016-09-24, 01:39 AM
5) Each player adds [a large number of] cards with no card type (or are alternatively basic lands), mana cost, or game text to their library at the start of the game. Optionally add "you can lose to drawing from an empty library."

I like this.

I think the three variants that look best to me are the bonus cards for Kaladesh (including inventions), Players draw a Wastes every turn (and have an infinite library of them) and Players may play cards from their graveyard (Once only, then they are exiled).

There's a lot of ideas here so I should be set for a while.

I should put up the round tomorrow.

TiaC
2016-09-24, 05:12 PM
A new challenger approaches, its round 14!

Fable Wright: Mox Jet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383020), Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382201)
Gauntlet: Mox Jet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383020), Cruel Sadist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383221), Blackmail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83471)
Bucky: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Lotus Petal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397468), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270445)
ben-zayb: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152724)
Tom the Mime: Mox ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152724), Burning inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Ninjaman: Endless one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401871), Dwarven Hold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4179), Noxious Revival (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230067)
tgva8889: Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Oxidize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46012), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Jormengand: Saprazzan Skerry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19643), Flash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16440), Woodfall Primus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370406)


Fable Wright: Mox Jet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383020), Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382201)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (3)
Vs. Bucky: WD (7)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (7)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (10)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (16)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (19)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (25)

Gauntlet: Mox Jet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383020), Cruel Sadist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383221), Blackmail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83471)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (3)
Vs. Bucky: WL (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (15)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (21)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (25)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (31)

Bucky: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Lotus Petal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397468), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270445)
Vs. Fable Wright: DL (1)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (4)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (9)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (15)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (18)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (24)

ben-zayb: Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152724)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (6)
Vs. Bucky: DD (8)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (9)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (15)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (17)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (23)

Tom the Mime: Mox ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152724), Burning inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (6)
Vs. Bucky: WL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (13)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (19)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (22)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (28)

Ninjaman: Endless one (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401871), Dwarven Hold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4179), Noxious Revival (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230067)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (0)
Vs. Bucky: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (2)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (2)

tgva8889: Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Oxidize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46012), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (4)
Vs. Bucky: WL (7)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (9)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (12)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (14)
Vs. Jormengand: DL (15)

Jormengand: Saprazzan Skerry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19643), Flash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16440), Woodfall Primus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370406)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (0)
Vs. Bucky: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (6)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (10)

Lot of counting turns here so I'm not going to put up results yet. I probably have a few off-by-one errors.

Bucky
2016-09-24, 05:28 PM
Fable Wright draws with me me going second.
If I play Thalia turn 1, he plays Karakas and bounces Thalia either EoT or in response to Ghost Quarter. Using ghost quarter draws.
If I don't play Thalia or let it be bounced without using ghost quarter, Thalia gets Scullered.

TiaC
2016-09-24, 07:45 PM
Fable Wright draws with me me going second.
If I play Thalia turn 1, he plays Karakas and bounces Thalia either EoT or in response to Ghost Quarter. Using ghost quarter draws.
If I don't play Thalia or let it be bounced without using ghost quarter, Thalia gets Scullered.

You're right, fixed.

tgva8889
2016-09-24, 08:02 PM
I'm pretty sure I can't win against Gauntlet on the play. I suspend Baloth, Gauntlet plays Blackmail, Baloth goes to 4, Gauntlet plays Sadist, Baloth goes to 3, Sadist is a 2/2, Baloth goes to 2, Sadist is a 3/3, Baloth goes to 1, Sadist is a 4/4, Baloth attacks Gauntlet to 12, Sadist goes to 5/5, Baloth attacks Gauntlet to 6, then neither of us can attack anymore and it's a draw. If I leave mana up it's at best a draw, as Gauntlet just doesn't play anything into my Mox or Blackmail's my win condition.

I should beat Bucky on the play: a 5/5 attacking someone at 20 still outraces a 2/1 first strike attacking someone at 10, and Thalia certainly can never beat Durkwood Baloth in a fight so I just win a straight race there. On the draw I lose due to not being able to play spells. You recorded it correctly on Bucky's sheet but not mine.

As it turns out, I got way too clever and suffered as a result.

TiaC
2016-09-24, 08:49 PM
I'm pretty sure I can't win against Gauntlet on the play. I suspend Baloth, Gauntlet plays Blackmail, Baloth goes to 4, Gauntlet plays Sadist, Baloth goes to 3, Sadist is a 2/2, Baloth goes to 2, Sadist is a 3/3, Baloth goes to 1, Sadist is a 4/4, Baloth attacks Gauntlet to 12, Sadist goes to 5/5, Baloth attacks Gauntlet to 6, then neither of us can attack anymore and it's a draw. If I leave mana up it's at best a draw, as Gauntlet just doesn't play anything into my Mox or Blackmail's my win condition.

I should beat Bucky on the play: a 5/5 attacking someone at 20 still outraces a 2/1 first strike attacking someone at 10, and Thalia certainly can never beat Durkwood Baloth in a fight so I just win a straight race there. On the draw I lose due to not being able to play spells. You recorded it correctly on Bucky's sheet but not mine.

As it turns out, I got way too clever and suffered as a result.

It looks like I just transposed those two results while writing your score.

ben-zayb
2016-09-25, 12:33 AM
Not seeing how I am drawing with tgva. Also, pretty sure I can Quarter Tom's Mutavault on my play for a draw.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-25, 12:47 AM
You draw because you deal enough damage before the baloth comes out that you'd win a race so he just keeps it untapped so you can't attack. First to attack loses, so no one does and it's a draw.

Agreed with my match with you though but I'd also add that on the points tally ben-zayb was credited for a WW when it was a DL.

Should've gone with nether spirit - recursion eking out a few more draws and a board empty of counterspells

TiaC
2016-09-25, 01:12 AM
You draw because you deal enough damage before the baloth comes out that you'd win a race so he just keeps it untapped so you can't attack. First to attack loses, so no one does and it's a draw.

Agreed with my match with you though but I'd also add that on the points tally ben-zayb was credited for a WW when it was a DL.

Should've gone with nether spirit - recursion eking out a few more draws and a board empty of counterspells

Fixed.

It's looking like these are the results then:

Gold: Gauntlet
Silver: Tom the Mime
Bronze: Fable Wright
Ghostly Guardian: Bucky
Really, An Exalted Phelddagriff?: ben-zayb
Rusted Away: tgva8889
If a Primus Falls in a Forest...: Jormengand
Endless and then Endless again: Ninjaman

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch

Blue: Daze, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

For Round 15, our first special round, all players draw a Wastes every turn and have an infinite library of them.

Fable Wright
2016-09-25, 02:11 AM
For Round 15, our first special round, all players draw a Wastes every turn and have an infinite library of them.

...What happens if someone casts Treasure Hunt? Automatic draw?

TiaC
2016-09-25, 02:53 AM
...What happens if someone casts Treasure Hunt? Automatic draw?
You draw your whole deck and play continues.

To answer some other questions that might be asked:
You can lose by being unable to draw.
You still only have three cards in your starting hand.

Fable Wright
2016-09-25, 03:00 AM
Then both players draw their whole deck and play continues.

But your deck is infinite, according to the round rules. I'm just wondering if this qualifies as an infinite loop of mandatory game actions, or if it ends up with a player somehow having an empty library and infinite Wastes in their hand, or infinite Wastes in hand and library for the caster, or...?

Tom the Mime
2016-09-25, 03:13 AM
Treasure hunt is just the person who cast it but yeah, you now have infinite land cards in your hand to take advantage of. You lose next turn though so you need to combo out that turn. Simian brawler is possible but given it doesn't have trample...

From gatherer "If all the cards left in your library are lands, you’ll reveal all of them and put them all into your hand."

TiaC
2016-09-25, 03:23 AM
I suppose it would be better to say you have an arbitrarily large number of Wastes in your library. Nothing short of an effect like Treasure hunt will allow you to reach the end, but there is an end to be reached.

Fable Wright
2016-09-25, 04:19 AM
Treasure hunt is just the person who cast it but yeah, you now have infinite land cards in your hand to take advantage of. You lose next turn though so you need to combo out that turn. Simian brawler is possible but given it doesn't have trample...

From gatherer "If all the cards left in your library are lands, you’ll reveal all of them and put them all into your hand."

The rule about running out of cards in your library hasn't changed, though; adding a library doesn't mean you can mill out. Otherwise it would be far too easy to deck people out in this round.

Ninjaman
2016-09-25, 12:29 PM
Man, my deck did not do good. I really need to up my game.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-25, 08:04 PM
The rule about running out of cards in your library hasn't changed, though; adding a library doesn't mean you can mill out. Otherwise it would be far too easy to deck people out in this round.
TiaC has said you can lose by being unable to draw. My interpretation (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong TiaC) is that the library has an infinite number of cards and you have to win in a finite number of turns. Treasure hunt still draws all cards from your library as the infinite number of cards you draw is the same as the infinite number of cards in your library.

There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1 but if you remove all numbers between 0 and 1 from that set, you just have the empty set. If you use different infinite sets you get different results but they're not relevant in this case.

tgva8889
2016-09-26, 09:54 PM
The original point of the format I suggested has been mostly lost, but the point was to allow milling by filling people's decks with an arbitrarily large number of actual blank cards, which also potentially enables some other things. Those cards are now not blank, which vastly changes the way I had originally intended for this to work.

ben-zayb
2016-09-27, 01:09 AM
The original point of the format I suggested has been mostly lost, but the point was to allow milling by filling people's decks with an arbitrarily large number of actual blank cards, which also potentially enables some other things. Those cards are now not blank, which vastly changes the way I had originally intended for this to work.

Yeah, that would've been interesting with Charbelcher.

TiaC
2016-09-30, 12:53 AM
The first special round (of many, I hope) stumbles a bit, but comes out strong. It's round fifteen!

Tom the Mime: Telemin performance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189085), Lotus bloom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370562), Mental misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Fable Wright: Desperate Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370546), Mox Ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Seismic Assault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129884)
Jormengand: Saprazzan Skerry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19643), Show and Tell (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416878), Battle of Wits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=288878)
Gauntlet: Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416746), Thespian's Stage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366353), Warping Wail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=407522)
tgva8889: Leyline of Sanctity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397677), Pack Rat (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253624), Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74323)
ben-zayb: Hickory Woodlot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19646), Channel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=channel), Karn Liberated (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397828)

Tom the Mime: Telemin performance, Lotus bloom, Mental misstep
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (9)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (9)

Fable Wright: Desperate Ritual, Mox Ruby, Seismic Assault
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (3)

Jormengand: Saprazzan Skerry, Show and Tell, Battle of Wits
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (12)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (18)

Gauntlet: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Warping Wail
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (15)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (21)
Vs. ben-zayb: WL (24)

tgva8889: Leyline of Sanctity, Pack Rat, Swamp
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (9)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (9)

ben-zayb: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Karn Liberated
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (18)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (21)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (27)

Gold: ben-zayb
Silver: Gauntlet
Bronze: Jormengand
Pied Piper: Tom the Mime, tgva8889
Desperation: Fable Wright

Channel is finally gone. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did.
Guantlet continues to surprise me with what is either amazing luck or brilliant reading of the meta. When people send in a deck, I look at it and guess where it will end up and his decks always overpreform my first guess. Warping Wail was a perfect card for this round. Many decks took advantage of the special rule in non-standard ways, leading to an interesting set.

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch

Blue: Daze, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

We return you to your regularly scheduled programming, now in beautiful (round) 16-bit color!

Tom the Mime
2016-09-30, 01:26 AM
I just wanted to mill someone so I'm happy.

Zayb is ww against gauntlet as gauntlet had to always save mana to counter channel and zayb can get karn out while the counter still has summoning sickness, exile it and win.

Edit: okay, my mistake

Also lots of matchups don't correspond with what is on their opponents at this stage.

TiaC
2016-09-30, 01:30 AM
I just wanted to mill someone so I'm happy.

Zayb is ww against gauntlet as gauntlet had to always save mana to counter channel and zayb can get karn out while the counter still has summoning sickness, exile it and win.

Gauntlet can use the Stage during ben-zayb's end step on his 4th turn and then attack before Karn can be cast.

ben-zayb
2016-09-30, 01:54 AM
Tom vs zayb is listed as WW but is actually DD like in zayb scoreboard
tgva vs zayb: even on tgva's play, it should be turn 2 rat and Karn exiles rat, with me eventually restarting the game. Else, Karn exiles swamp (6-3=3), stalling tgva, Karn can target me to get more loyalty, then exiles leyline, and then the rat
Edit: that is, DD by always exiling a waste...unless we count his infinity becomes a smaller degree of infinity with each restarted game because I made him exile infinity waste...

TiaC
2016-09-30, 02:27 AM
Tom vs zayb is listed as WW but is actually DD like in zayb scoreboard
tgva vs zayb: even on tgva's play, it should be turn 2 rat and Karn exiles rat, with me eventually restarting the game. Else, Karn exiles swamp (6-3=3), stalling tgva, Karn can target me to get more loyalty, then exiles leyline, and then the rat
Edit: that is, DD by always exiling a waste...unless we count his infinity becomes a smaller degree of infinity with each restarted game because I made him exile infinity waste...

Tom vs zayb: As I see it, Tom can just pitch Wastes to Karn until he gets the Bloom and then win. When you go first, you can restart the game before this happens.

T1 Tom: Wastes, Suspend Bloom
T1 zayb: Hickory Woodlot
T2 Tom: Wastes, Bloom to 2 counters
T2 zayb: Channel, Karn, exile Mental Mishap
T3 Tom: Bloom to 1 counters
T3 zayb: Exile the wastes from hand
T4 Tom: Bloom in play, Telemin performance
T4 zayb: Lose

tgva vs zayb: As I did say decks are not truly infinite, only arbitrarily large, you do win against tgva

ben-zayb
2016-09-30, 03:15 AM
Tom vs zayb: As I see it, Tom can just pitch Wastes to Karn until he gets the Bloom and then win. When you go first, you can restart the game before this happens.

T1 Tom: Wastes, Suspend Bloom
T1 zayb: Hickory Woodlot
T2 Tom: Wastes, Bloom to 2 counters
T2 zayb: Channel, Karn, exile Mental Mishap
T3 Tom: Bloom to 1 counters
T3 zayb: Exile the wastes from hand
T4 Tom: Bloom in play, Telemin performance
T4 zayb: Lose

tgva vs zayb: As I did say decks are not truly infinite, only arbitrarily large, you do win against tgva
But if Tom exiles at least 1 Wastes at a time on my play (else he exiles Telemin at my T2 or T3), each subsequent game will get me 1 wastes, eventually getting a T1 Karn to destroy the combo, eventually autodecking out Tom. So WL?

Gauntlet
2016-09-30, 03:17 AM
I'm surprised Mental Misstep has made it all this way. Seems like something that should beat a lot of the banned cards. I suppose Misstep lists keep getting pushed out by the Channel lists.

In Tom vs. zayb, I see this line:

Tom on the play:
T1 Tom: Suspend Lotus Bloom
T1 Ben: Woodlot
T2 Tom: Lotus Bloom to 2. Play a Wastes.
T2 Ben: Channel, Karn, Exile Misstep ([email protected]).
T3 Tom: Lotus Bloom to 1. Do nothing (can't have Telemin be only card in hand).
T3 Ben: Can't exile from hand, or Tom topdecks Wastes and casts Telemin. Exile Wastes from board. [email protected]
T4 Tom: Lotus bloom comes in, play a Wastes, 4 mana available so have to pass.
T4 Ben: Karn exiles Lotus Bloom (respond by cracking), [email protected]
Tom no longer threatens the kill, so Ben exiles some more Wastes from Tom's hand/play, then restarts the game.
Ben casts Karn T1 and ticks Karn up forever, preventing Tom from ever casting Telemin. Tom started the game with Wastes exiled, so assuming libraries are equally sized he decks out first.
Ben wins.

Ben on the play:
T1 Ben: Woodlot
T1 Tom: Suspend Lotus Bloom, Wastes
T2 Ben: Channel, Karn, exile Misstep ([email protected])
T2 Tom: Lotus Bloom to 2. Do nothing (can't have Telemin be only card in hand).
T3 Ben: Exile Wastes from hand ([email protected])
T3 Tom: Lotus Bloom to 1. Do nothing (can't have Telemin be only card in hand).
T4 Ben: Can't exile from hand, or Tom topdecks Wastes and casts Telemin. Exile Wastes from board. [email protected]
T4 Tom: Lotus bloom comes in, play a Wastes, 4 mana available so have to pass.
T5 Ben: Karn exiles Lotus Bloom (respond by cracking), [email protected]
Tom no longer threatens the kill, so Ben exiles some more Wastes from Tom's hand/play, then restarts the game.
Ben casts Karn T1 and ticks Karn up forever, preventing Tom from ever casting Telemin. Tom started the game with Wastes exiled, so assuming libraries are equally sized he decks out first.
Ben wins.

Tom's problem is that he's one mana behind where he needs to be, even on the play, because he doesn't draw on his first turn on the play so he can't play that first Wastes.

ben-zayb
2016-09-30, 03:19 AM
I'm surprised Mental Misstep has made it all this way. Seems like something that should beat a lot of the banned cards. I suppose Misstep lists keep getting pushed out by the Channel lists.

Thing is, many 1 cmc disrupts that worked before are either banned or probably won't work this round. More cardpool, more mana, etc, is usually the chokepoint why some of these cards work

Gauntlet
2016-09-30, 03:50 AM
Edited my post above. Ben, I'm pretty sure you 2-0 Tom and take the round.

TiaC
2016-09-30, 04:26 AM
Hmm, I wasn't assuming decks were equal size. I did let games go to draws if they would otherwise go to infinity. However, I did say that there were decks of finite size and that people could lose by decking. So, I guess that to be consistent with what I've already said, there are no draws this round.

With that and the pointing out that Tom doesn't draw a Wastes on his first turn, ben-zayb takes the gold. (You would think that I would get better at this, but it doesn't seem like that's happening.)

Edit: This is one of the few rounds where Karn would do so well, because it normally has problems with non-permanent win conditions.

Tom the Mime
2016-09-30, 03:25 PM
Ben zayb can't beat me. Read the rules TiaC posted. If an effect doesn't mill all the cards at once, it doesn't work as a win con


I suppose it would be better to say you have an arbitrarily large number of Wastes in your library. Nothing short of an effect like Treasure hunt will allow you to reach the end, but there is an end to be reached.

TiaC
2016-09-30, 03:42 PM
Ok, I'd like some input here. I'm trying to come up with the ruling most consistent with my prior statements. Should milling out happen in the absence of an effect that mills out the entire deck?

ben-zayb
2016-09-30, 04:59 PM
The problem is that the statement is contradictory. If there's an end to be reached, then it will, as long as the game progresses for that arbitaririly large amount of turns.

tgva8889
2016-09-30, 07:37 PM
I'm so sad I tried to go too far with my metagaming. This happens to me a lot.

TiaC
2016-10-01, 04:27 PM
The problem is that the statement is contradictory. If there's an end to be reached, then it will, as long as the game progresses for that arbitrarily large amount of turns.

Yeah, it is.

Well, I think I'm going to say that an infinitely-long game is "an effect like Treasure hunt" and let the current results stand. Sorry Tom and Gauntlet.

Gauntlet
2016-10-01, 04:30 PM
Yeah, it is.

Well, I think I'm going to say that an infinitely-long game is "an effect like Treasure hunt" and let the current results stand. Sorry Tom and Gauntlet.

No problem, with Channel gone a lot of other decks (those without turn one disruption) get to do their thing. Maybe the storage lands will be more relevant now.

Tom the Mime
2016-10-02, 03:09 AM
I still disagree with it but I won't harp on about it. I would have preferred if you'd responded to the post I'd made a good 4 days before the results where I was trying to clarify the issue so we we all clear ahead of time though.

TiaC
2016-10-04, 02:05 PM
I still disagree with it but I won't harp on about it. I would have preferred if you'd responded to the post I'd made a good 4 days before the results where I was trying to clarify the issue so we we all clear ahead of time though.

I'm sorry about that, I've been really busy. So I read your post on my phone in a hurry, thought it was just repeating what I'd said and didn't reply.

TiaC
2016-10-06, 02:35 AM
Round 16 is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Bucky: Ancient tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Warping Wail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=407522), Warping Wail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=407522)
tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Fable Wright: Elvish Spirit Guide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184542), Skyshroud Elite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21106), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Tom the Mime: Syvelunite Temple (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184522), Flash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16440), Woodfall primus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370406)
Gauntlet: Snow-Covered Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184814), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
ben-zayb:Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Vault Skirge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217984)
Ninjaman: Glistener Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233052), Pendelhaven (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109755), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)


Bucky: Ancient tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Warping Wail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=407522), Warping Wail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=407522)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (8)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (14)

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Bucky: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (18)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (19)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (20)
Vs. Ninjaman: DL (21)

Fable Wright: Elvish Spirit Guide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184542), Skyshroud Elite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21106), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. Bucky: WW (6)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (8)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (8)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (8)

Tom the Mime: Syvelunite Temple (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184522), Flash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16440), Woodfall primus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370406)
Vs. Bucky: WW (6)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (18)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (24)

Gauntlet: Snow-Covered Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184814), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. Bucky: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (8)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (10)

ben-zayb:Ghost Quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220371), Cathedral of War (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259680), Vault Skirge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=217984)
Vs. Bucky: DD (2)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (18)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (20)
Vs. Ninjaman: WD (24)

Ninjaman: Glistener Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233052), Pendelhaven (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109755), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. Bucky: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (10)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (10)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (13)

I'm exhausted, so results will follow once you all have had a chance to check for mistakes.

Gauntlet
2016-10-06, 03:11 AM
Isn't Chronomaton banned?

Tom the Mime
2016-10-06, 03:20 AM
Oops. Good point. Didn't check the artifacts list as thoroughly as I should have. Luckily it doesn't change much with the other results

Gauntlet
2016-10-06, 03:31 AM
I was expecting a lot more Thalias and Ghost Quarters and a lot less Mental Missteps. Whoops. Interestingly Depths/Stage/Tomb would have beaten everyone but ben-zayb.

ben-zayb
2016-10-06, 03:54 AM
I think tom-zayb will always be LL because I can always Quarter an etb-tapped Temple.

Unless I'm missing something, tgva-zayb seems to be WL.tgva play: therapy on skirge, tgva wins

ben play:
1b: quarter, skirge, -2/0
1t: suspending baloth 5, because therapy is pointless now
2b: cathedral, 0/-2
2t: baloth 4
3b: 2/-4
3t: baloth 3
4b: 4/-6
4t: baloth 2
5b: 6/-8
5t: baloth 1
6b: 8/-10
6t: baloth 0, 3/-10
7b: 5/-12
7t: 0/-14
8b: 2/-16
8t: -3/-16
9b: -1/-18
9t: -6/-18
10: -4/-20

Tom the Mime
2016-10-06, 03:55 AM
2 one-mana targeted discards down. 5 (?) useful ones to go. Then even more plain discard ones.

Kind of disappointed that I didn't catch my mistake earlier as my second choice which I thought was vulnerable to disruption wasn't vulnerable to this disruption.

TiaC
2016-10-06, 05:31 AM
Isn't Chronomaton banned?

It is, I'll replace it with Tom's backup deck that he sent for round 14. (This is what I do if you have not sent in a deck for the current round but you still have a deck that hasn't been played as a backup from earlier. Bucky's deck is the same.)


I think tom-zayb will always be LL because I can always Quarter an etb-tapped Temple.

Unless I'm missing something, tgva-zayb seems to be WL.tgva play: therapy on skirge, tgva wins

ben play:
1b: quarter, skirge, -2/0
1t: suspending baloth 5, because therapy is pointless now
2b: cathedral, 0/-2
2t: baloth 4
3b: 2/-4
3t: baloth 3
4b: 4/-6
4t: baloth 2
5b: 6/-8
5t: baloth 1
6b: 8/-10
6t: baloth 0, 3/-10
7b: 5/-12
7t: 0/-14
8b: 2/-16
8t: -3/-16
9b: -1/-18
9t: -6/-18
10: -4/-20

Looks right to me, I don't know what I was thinking was happening there.

Jormengand
2016-10-06, 04:07 PM
Good to know that my flash deck wasn't as stupid as I thought it was. :smallbiggrin:

tgva8889
2016-10-06, 04:10 PM
Tom the Mime can never beat me because his land enters the battlefield tapped, so I always get the chance to Cabal Therapy his Woodfall Primus (or his Flash, it doesn't really matter). Should be WW for me.

Also, vs. Ben, Therapy on Scourge on my turn 1 doesn't actually let me win, because he has Ghost Quarter. I have to try to play Baloth, otherwise I play Therapy and he Quarters and we draw. If my Baloth on the play beats his Scourge on the draw, then I win, otherwise I draw. You did the analysis on the draw already. I believe this matchup is DL for me.

Tom vs. Gauntlet, Tom on the Draw
Turn 1: Mountain, Noble / Temple
Turn 2: Attack with Noble (19, now a 2/2) / Pass
Turn 3: Can't attack or lose, pass, EOT Primus/ Attack with Primus (15).
Turn 4: Attack with Noble (17, now a 3/3)/ Attack with Primus (10)
Turn 5: Attack with Noble (14, now a 4/4)/ Attack with Primus (5)
Turn 6: Lose the game because Noble isn't big enough to trade with Primus (4/4) and can't win a race against it. Tom wins.

Looks like Tom should be WW vs. Gauntlet.

It amuses me that if I had picked a slightly different threat, I would have ended up drawing one of my losses and nothing else would have changed.

Assuming the results are correct now, it looks like we have a tie and we finally get to be rid of Ghost Quarter and another way to cheat large creatures into play?

TiaC
2016-10-06, 04:40 PM
Tom the Mime can never beat me because his land enters the battlefield tapped, so I always get the chance to Cabal Therapy his Woodfall Primus (or his Flash, it doesn't really matter). Should be WW for me.

Also, vs. Ben, Therapy on Scourge on my turn 1 doesn't actually let me win, because he has Ghost Quarter. I have to try to play Baloth, otherwise I play Therapy and he Quarters and we draw. If my Baloth on the play beats his Scourge on the draw, then I win, otherwise I draw. You did the analysis on the draw already. I believe this matchup is DL for me.

Tom vs. Gauntlet, Tom on the Draw
Turn 1: Mountain, Noble / Temple
Turn 2: Attack with Noble (19, now a 2/2) / Pass
Turn 3: Can't attack or lose, pass, EOT Primus/ Attack with Primus (15).
Turn 4: Attack with Noble (17, now a 3/3)/ Attack with Primus (10)
Turn 5: Attack with Noble (14, now a 4/4)/ Attack with Primus (5)
Turn 6: Lose the game because Noble isn't big enough to trade with Primus (4/4) and can't win a race against it. Tom wins.

Looks like Tom should be WW vs. Gauntlet.

This is what happens when I post after midnight. All fixed, for what looks like a tie between Tom the Mime and ben-zayb. It seems that whenever Mental Misstep is used, it mainly hits other Mental Missteps.

Tom the Mime
2016-10-07, 02:47 AM
Assuming the results are correct now, it looks like we have a tie and we finally get to be rid of Ghost Quarter and another way to cheat large creatures into play?

Being rid of ghost quarter would mean more if wasteland does exactly the same thing here unless you have a use for a basic land after turn 1.

TiaC
2016-10-07, 09:59 PM
It looks like there won't be any more changes, so here are the results
Gold: Tom the Mime, ben-zayb
Silver: tgva8889
Bronze: Bucky
Infected: Ninjaman
Snow-covered?: Gauntlet
Elvish not-so-elite: Fable Wright

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ghost Quarter, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Still no gold cards banned as we go into round 17.

ben-zayb
2016-10-07, 11:44 PM
Ah, there goes my reserve Hornet Queen / Flash deck. back to the drawing board, then...

Fable Wright
2016-10-08, 02:44 AM
Still no gold cards banned as we go into round 17.

Those require at least two lands, or specific come-into-play-tapped lands with a hefty drawback. It's really hard to justify running them if you want to win.

tgva8889
2016-10-08, 08:07 PM
Being rid of ghost quarter would mean more if wasteland does exactly the same thing here unless you have a use for a basic land after turn 1.

Well we had someone play a basic land this round and do quite well, and I've played basic lands in the past and also done well. So there's a strong possibility a deck that just subs Wasteland for Ghost Quarter/Strip Mine will lose or draw matches it would have won with the better card. Of course, we do still need to get Wasteland banned...

ben-zayb
2016-10-08, 09:34 PM
The good thing about finally banning Ghost Quarter (which was my initial goal since the start) is that I can now proceed with my second goal of having Wasteland banned, which should then allow to toy with various lands without the risk of losing or drawing via mere land removal

tgva8889
2016-10-09, 01:16 AM
Yeah, I need Wasteland to get banned so I can play all my storage lands again. :smallbiggrin:

Tom the Mime
2016-10-09, 02:00 AM
But then you still need to keep an eye on discard and that isn't running out any time soon.

ben-zayb
2016-10-09, 03:13 AM
But then you still need to keep an eye on discard and that isn't running out any time soon.Plenty of them can still be responded to, so running land + disrupt/antidisrupt + win-con should still be feasible if the land is key to your win. That, or disruption won't simply work on you.

TiaC
2016-10-10, 10:53 PM
Well, I have 7 decks, so looks like I should do round 17 now.

Fable Wright: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Gruul Turf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397689), Yule Ooze (http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/93/834/635032496346696464.jpg)
Gauntlet: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Mox Sapphire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383023), Meddling Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179547)
Tom the Mime: Maze of Ith (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413783), Keldon Megaliths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393852), Gruul Turf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397689)
ben-zayb: Pendelhaven (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109755), Wasteland (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409576), Blight Mamba (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194158)
tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Ninjaman: Young Wolf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262872), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860)
Jormengand: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Lightning Helix (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386343)


Fable Wright: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Gruul Turf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397689), Yule Ooze (http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/93/834/635032496346696464.jpg)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (1)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (1)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (1)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (1)

Gauntlet: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Mox Sapphire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383023), Meddling Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179547)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (12)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (15)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (18)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (21)

Tom the Mime: Maze of Ith (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413783), Keldon Megaliths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393852), Gruul Turf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397689)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (14)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (20)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (26)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (26)

ben-zayb: Pendelhaven (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109755), Wasteland (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409576), Blight Mamba (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194158)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (4)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (4)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (6)
Vs. tgva8889: DL (7)
Vs. Ninjaman: DL (8)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (10)

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (9)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (13)
Vs. Ninjaman: WD (17)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (20)

Ninjaman: Young Wolf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262872), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (9)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (13)
Vs. tgva8889: DL (14)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (17)

Jormengand: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Lightning Helix (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386343)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (9)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (15)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (17)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (20)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (23)

As it's another close round, results will be up once you all have had a chance to find mistakes.

ben-zayb
2016-10-10, 11:25 PM
Jorm-zayb will always end up with me Wasting the Tomb, but only either too early (can't cast the Mamba) or too late (Mamba gets hit by the Helix Stick). Seems DD to me.

Tom the Mime
2016-10-10, 11:56 PM
Jorm is also WL against Gauntlet. Meddling mage can't stop the copies from the scepter.

TiaC
2016-10-11, 12:01 AM
Jorm is also WL against Gauntlet. Meddling mage can't stop the copies from the scepter.

"Named card", :smallannoyed:, this game is too complicated sometimes. Thanks.

Oh, congrats on your win by the way.

tgva8889
2016-10-11, 12:53 AM
Man, Yule Ooze isn't even a good threat. Destroy at random? So sad.

TiaC
2016-10-11, 12:58 AM
Man, Yule Ooze isn't even a good threat. Destroy at random? So sad.

It's a fine threat, since it can't hit itself or lands. It beats pretty much anything without disruption.

ben-zayb
2016-10-11, 06:10 AM
But Scepter doesn't copy the spell, or casts the copy of the spell. It makes a copy of the card, which you can cast without paying the mana cost.
Edit: Whoops, I misread. Carry on!

Fable Wright
2016-10-11, 12:23 PM
Man, Yule Ooze isn't even a good threat. Destroy at random? So sad.

It was to confirm that a) Holiday cards worked, and b) it does stop any nonland win condition.

You know, if it's ever allowed to hit the field.

tgva8889
2016-10-11, 09:17 PM
I suppose, but top 20 does not make it a good threat.

TiaC
2016-10-14, 02:43 PM
I thought I had posted this already...
Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: Jormengand
Bronze: Gauntlet
If at first you don't succeed: tgva8889
Change it up and try again: Ninjaman
Blight Mamba sounds like a band: ben-zayb
A few months early: Fable Wright

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Nice try on the gold cards.

TiaC
2016-10-19, 01:37 AM
Sorry about the delay everyone, life happened. Here's decks for round 18, matches will happen when I don't have class in the morning. Lot of re-use this round.

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Fable Wright: Grove of the Burnwillows (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=287335), Rishadan Port (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19767), Punishing Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247550)
Tom the Mime: Wasteland (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413790), Mox Sapphire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383023), Ensoul Artifact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383232)
Jormengand: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Lightning Helix (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386343)
Gauntlet: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Mox Sapphire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383023), Meddling Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179547)
jo nas: Force Spike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292750), Tropical Island (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383138), Young Wolf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262872)
ben-zayb: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005), Thespian's Stage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thespian%27s+stage), Dark Depths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark+depths)

Gauntlet
2016-10-19, 03:24 AM
Well that looks like a whole lot of W/L trades, what with the number of turn 1 disruption cards.

tgva beats Fable Wright and jo nas, DL with Tom the Mime, loses to Ben, trades with everyone else. (22)

Ninjaman gets WD against jo nas, beats Ben and Fable Wright, and trades with everyone else. (28)

Fable Wright draws with jo nas and loses to everyone else. (2)

Tom the Mime gets WD against tgva and jo nas, beats Fable Wright, Jormengand and ben-zayb, and trades with Gauntlet and Ninjaman. (32)

Jormengand beats Fable Wright, loses to Tom The Mime and ben-zayb, WD with jo nas, trades with everyone else. (19)

Gauntlet beats ben-zayb and Fable Wright, WD with jo nas, trades with everyone else. (28)

jo nas loses to tgva and ben-zayb, draws with Fable Wright and DL with everyone else. (6)

ben-zayb beats tgva, Jormengand, Fable Wright and jo nas, and loses to Tom, Gauntlet and Ninjaman. (24)

Tom the Mime
2016-10-19, 04:01 AM
Seems right. With Gauntlet posting the results, I'll post the puns :smalltongue:

Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: Gauntlet, Ninjaman
Bronze: ben-zayb
Still in therapy: tgva8889
Going around in helices: Jormengand
Spike would be a cool name for a wolf: jo nas
Stuck in port: Fable Wright

Gauntlet
2016-10-19, 04:21 AM
Mox Sapphire is banned, so I can't run Meddling Mage any more :smalleek: I'm going to have to think again.

Fable Wright
2016-10-19, 11:30 AM
Mox Sapphire is banned, so I can't run Meddling Mage any more :smalleek: I'm going to have to think again.

These were my thoughts after Mox Jet was banned. I really liked the Tidehollow Sculler deck.

TiaC
2016-10-19, 05:59 PM
Well that looks like a whole lot of W/L trades, what with the number of turn 1 disruption cards.

tgva beats Fable Wright and jo nas, DL with Tom the Mime, loses to Ben, trades with everyone else. (22)

Ninjaman gets WD against jo nas, beats Ben and Fable Wright, and trades with everyone else. (28)

Fable Wright draws with jo nas and loses to everyone else. (2)

Tom the Mime gets WD against tgva and jo nas, beats Fable Wright, Jormengand and ben-zayb, and trades with Gauntlet and Ninjaman. (32)

Jormengand beats Fable Wright, loses to Tom The Mime and ben-zayb, WD with jo nas, trades with everyone else. (19)

Gauntlet beats ben-zayb and Fable Wright, WD with jo nas, trades with everyone else. (28)

jo nas loses to tgva and ben-zayb, draws with Fable Wright and DL with everyone else. (6)

ben-zayb beats tgva, Jormengand, Fable Wright and jo nas, and loses to Tom, Gauntlet and Ninjaman. (24)


Seems right. With Gauntlet posting the results, I'll post the puns :smalltongue:

Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: Gauntlet, Ninjaman
Bronze: ben-zayb
Still in therapy: tgva8889
Going around in helices: Jormengand
Spike would be a cool name for a wolf: jo nas
Stuck in port: Fable Wright

Thanks, both of you, it's great to have the help. What did you think of doing that side of things?

Now, the final thing that must be done for the round.

Land: Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler


Mox Sapphire is banned, so I can't run Meddling Mage any more :smalleek: I'm going to have to think again.

There are at least two more ways to cast Meddling Mage on the first turn that I can think of.

Send in those round 19 decks!

Tom the Mime
2016-10-21, 03:16 AM
I'm fine helping out once they're posted

TiaC
2016-10-23, 07:27 PM
tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Fable Wright: Fountain of Cho (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19893), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192), Increasing Devotion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409590)
Gauntlet: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159837), Cenn's Tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192)
Jormengand: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Lightning Helix (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386343)
Tom the Mime: Research//development (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=107375), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567) (Sideboard: Shelldock Isle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146178), Oboro, Palace in the Clouds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74206), Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=260991))


tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (4)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (7)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (10)

Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (9)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (15)

Fable Wright: Fountain of Cho (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19893), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192), Increasing Devotion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409590)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (15)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (15)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (15)

Gauntlet: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159837), Cenn's Tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (7)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (7)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (7)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (7)

Jormengand: Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Lightning Helix (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386343)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (18)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (18)

Tom the Mime: Research//development (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=107375), Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413765), Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409567) (Sideboard: Shelldock Isle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146178), Oboro, Palace in the Clouds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74206), Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=260991))
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (24)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (24)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (24)

Because it's confusing, here's how Tom's deck works.
T1: Play tomb into the scepter, imprinting research
T2: Scepter research to grab shelldock into the library
T3: Scepter research to get the rest of the sideboard. Hide Bolas with shelldock.
T4: Play Oboro, activate shelldock to play Bolas
From then on, Oboro can be used to feed counters to Bolas as needed.
Interestingly, Tom can cast Development, but there's never a point in doing so. However, he did manage to ban not one, but two gold cards. Well done!

Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: Jormengand
Bronze: Ninjaman, Fable Wright
Still having flashbacks: tgva8889
Tactical genius: Gauntlet

People are beginning to tech against the reused decks.


Land: Ancient Tomb, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

Oh, it's round 20. Time for another special round. For round 20: Send in three card decks. You will get two copies of each card.

ben-zayb
2016-10-23, 10:56 PM
Oh snap, I missed this one! Canned my Isochron Research attempt too!

Tom the Mime
2016-10-24, 01:55 AM
Wow, I wasn't expecting it to do that well. Choosing Bolas instead of Ulamog really paid off with the exile meta

Jormengand
2016-10-24, 08:05 AM
At least I can claim the idea of using ancient tomb+isochron sceptre. :smalltongue:

Ninjaman
2016-10-25, 06:14 PM
Leave it to Tom to make weird decks that crush everything.

Also has any deck ever gone WL on all matches before?

Edit: Also I just realized Tom won 4 rounds in a row :smalleek:

ben-zayb
2016-10-25, 08:45 PM
Leave it to Tom to make weird decks that crush everything.

Also has any deck ever gone WL on all matches before?

Edit: Also I just realized Tom won 4 rounds in a row :smalleek:Only yours, afaik. I think Tom had an almost all-DD round, while I had an almost all-WW round.

Tom the Mime
2016-10-26, 02:37 AM
Leave it to Tom to make weird decks that crush everything.

Also has any deck ever gone WL on all matches before?

Edit: Also I just realized Tom won 4 rounds in a row :smalleek:

The grovepods deck? The weird ones are more fun to make and I was going out of my way to make a planes one that worked. The fact that it was harder to disrupt because of the plane was just an added bonus. Had a plan for Goldmeadow, Takara avatar and a bounce land - discover new lands, find goats there and throw them at people.

The weirder they are, the less people are likely to have considered counters for them. :smallbiggrin:

Ninjaman
2016-10-30, 06:50 AM
Was this round going to be a special round?

Tom the Mime
2016-10-30, 10:30 AM
Was this round going to be a special round?

Yep. 3 cards but you get them twice



Oh, it's round 20. Time for another special round. For round 20: Send in three card decks. You will get two copies of each card.

TiaC
2016-10-31, 04:46 PM
Round 20 begins! A full score of rounds!

ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
tgva8889: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74317), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Bloodsoaked Champion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386494)
Fable Wright: Mox Ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Mox Ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Empty the Warrens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370480)
Tom the Mime: Chancellor of the dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020), Chancellor of the dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020), Soul spike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121165)
Gauntlet: Cavern of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278058), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Ninjaman: Badlands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382852), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635), Terminate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368491)
b_jonas: Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Symbiotic Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=32216)


ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (18)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (20)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (26)

tgva8889: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74317), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Bloodsoaked Champion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386494)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (3)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (6)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (12)

Fable Wright: Mox Ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Mox Ruby (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383022), Empty the Warrens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370480)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (9)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (15)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (21)

Tom the Mime: Chancellor of the dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020), Chancellor of the dross (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218020), Soul spike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121165)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (6)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (12)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (18)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (24)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (30)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (36)

Gauntlet: Cavern of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278058), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: DD (8)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (8)

Ninjaman: Badlands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382852), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635), Terminate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368491)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (2)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (5)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (5)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (5)
Vs. Gauntlet: DD (7)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (13)

b_jonas: Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Mox Emerald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383019), Symbiotic Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=32216)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (6)

Results to follow shortly, but I don't think anything will upset Tom's insane deck that wins during the first upkeep.

b_jonas
2016-10-31, 04:53 PM
The rules say "All sets and promos are legal". Does this mean that Gleemox can be used in a deck, since it was a promo card once (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/ask-wizards-gleemox-and-elves-deep-shadow-2008-12-09)?

Update: after seeing the decks of round 20. Gravecrawler is a nice creature, better than Myr Servitor in this race. Fable's decks is beautiful, putting 14 1/1 goblins onto the battlefield in his first turn. I find ben-zayb's deck very creative.

TiaC
2016-10-31, 05:21 PM
The rules say "All sets and promos are legal". Does this mean that Gleemox can be used in a deck, since it was a promo card once (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/ask-wizards-gleemox-and-elves-deep-shadow-2008-12-09)?

Unfortunately, the card is banned, because it says so on the card. (I'm also going to ban Library of Congress, because it has never been allowed to players)

ben-zayb
2016-11-01, 01:24 AM
Update: after seeing the decks of round 20. Gravecrawler is a nice creature, better than Myr Servitor in this race. Fable's decks is beautiful, putting 14 1/1 goblins onto the battlefield in his first turn. I find ben-zayb's deck very creative.I had the idea shelved for some time, and thought this round would be a good opportuniity to maximize its usage. I suppose my meta prediction was right and would've succeeded, if it wasn't for that meddling kids mage mime!:smallbiggrin:

Tom the Mime
2016-11-01, 02:07 AM
Reputation for weird but good decks continues. Although I don't think they'll be anywhere near as strange as the last two until the next special round

Gauntlet
2016-11-01, 03:36 AM
Oh, wasn't paying attention to the "you get two of each card" thing. Whoops.

Ninjaman
2016-11-01, 04:59 AM
Am I missing something or should I have won over Ben-Zayb?

I play a gravecrawler and then hold up terminate for when his mutavaults activate. He can trade by animating both at once, but then I can just play the other gravecrawler and keep up terminate.

Jormengand
2016-11-01, 05:06 AM
I did send a deck to be submitted to every round after my isochron deck was banned...

Tom the Mime
2016-11-01, 06:39 AM
Am I missing something or should I have won over Ben-Zayb?

I play a gravecrawler and then hold up terminate for when his mutavaults activate. He can trade by animating both at once, but then I can just play the other gravecrawler and keep up terminate.

The leyline means he can bounce gravecrawler each turn and that you can only have one of them out. As you can terminate his mutavaults whenever they become creatures, neither of you can really do anything to each other.

b_jonas
2016-11-01, 07:26 AM
This metagame is interesting. A Mental Misstep deck can hose a lot of other decks. If many people play Mental Misstep, then other people must play less efficient decks that don't cast spells of converted mana cost 1. But if nobody plays Mental Misstep, and everyone plays decks with efficient cmc 1 spells, then you can win with a Mental Misstep deck.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-01, 08:24 AM
Mental misstep looks a lot better than it actually is. It only hoses decks like the burning inquiry deck where a 1 mana card is an essential card. It can give a marginal benefit against decks where the disruption and threat are distinct from one another but not hosing them in general. Then it gets hosed against most decks where it can't counter anything. With ancient tomb gone, the meta might get to the point where it's more competitive but it needs a very specific meta to do better than other disruption options for the same slot at this stage.

Gauntlet
2016-11-01, 09:08 AM
Against 'vanilla' land + threat + disruption decks, Misstep means that if your threat isn't as good at theirs you get a draw (trade threats) but if your threat is better than theirs you get a win (counter their disruption). It turns a lot of losses into draws - it just doesn't do much to get actual wins which is where most of the points are.

ben-zayb
2016-11-01, 09:19 AM
Am I missing something or should I have won over Ben-Zayb?Gravecrawler, as do most creatures, will never last on the battlefield past its controller's turn except on turn 1 of his or her play, which means 0% chance of winning if your 1 swing doesn't translate to a win.

Ninjaman
2016-11-01, 12:48 PM
The leyline means he can bounce gravecrawler each turn and that you can only have one of them out. As you can terminate his mutavaults whenever they become creatures, neither of you can really do anything to each other.

I missed that the Leyline allowed the Karakas to bounce all creatures, now it makes sense.

b_jonas
2016-11-01, 01:36 PM
Mental misstep looks a lot better than it actually is. It only hoses decks like the burning inquiry deck where a 1 mana card is an essential card. I guess you're right. I sort of assumed that in most three card decks there'll be two spells, and both of them are essential, because that's the sort of deck I'd build. But I guess you're right, most of the decks you've submitted do use a disruption card plus a threat card.
About the only deck with two spells none of which is disruption is Jormengard's Isochron Scepter deck, and Mental Misstep won't work against that.

Fable Wright
2016-11-01, 01:53 PM
I guess you're right. I sort of assumed that in most three card decks there'll be two spells, and both of them are essential, because that's the sort of deck I'd build. But I guess you're right, most of the decks you've submitted do use a disruption card plus a threat card.
About the only deck with two spells none of which is disruption is Jormengard's Isochron Scepter deck, and Mental Misstep won't work against that.

Well, Tom the Mime is about the best example you can find of zero-disruption decks right now, and they're doing fairly well. But yeah, either you have disruption as your main strategy, mandatory counter-disruption, or you're in trouble.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-01, 06:32 PM
Thinking about it, land destruction being a lot harder now opens up a bit of a space for mm with storage lands and a good threat that would otherwise be vulnerable to both discard and exile. Still wouldn't be my first pick though.

tgva8889
2016-11-01, 09:37 PM
Finally getting all the LD spells removed means there's actually other options, if you can figure out how to not lose against whatever threats people are playing.

b_jonas
2016-11-02, 06:11 AM
I have a question to TiaC. Since Unhinged cards like Little Girls are allowed, do we use the modified rules for choosing a number from the un-rulings in the Unhinged FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic%2Ffaq%2Funhinged)?

Let me give an an example (this isn't necessarily a good deck or a deck I want to play). I use this deck: Dhund Operative (http://magiccards.info/kld/en/74.html), Lightning Greaves (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/199.html), Peat Bog (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/322.html). My opponent plays Fable Wright's round 19 deck: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Increasing Devotion. I have the Operative in play as a 3/2 creature with deathtouch, and attack for 3 each of my turns starting from the second. In their turn 7, the opponent puts five 1/1 tokens into play, which have summoning sickness. In my turn after that turn, I attack with the Operative again. Suppose the opponent tries to block with all five tokens. Can I assign damage such that four of the five tokens get half a point of deathtouch damage at that point, killing all the tokens? (Update: to make it clear, the Increasing Devotion deck wins this game easily regardless of the answer, both because of the flashback and because it will only block with two tokens.)

Update: A different un-rules question. About Booster Tutor (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/51.html).
The general rule is that you have a three-card sideboard to draw from. So, in keeping with that and the no hidden information rule, I'm going to say that you pick a set of three cards that could theoretically be found in a single booster when you send in your deck and it fetches you one of those. Why would I have to pick three cards from the same booster? Can't I bring three unopened boosters from three different expansion sets to the games, and make my sideboard consist of three cards total, one from each of those boosters?

TiaC
2016-11-02, 11:29 PM
I have a question to TiaC. Since Unhinged cards like Little Girls are allowed, do we use the modified rules for choosing a number from the un-rulings in the Unhinged FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic%2Ffaq%2Funhinged)?

Let me give an an example (this isn't necessarily a good deck or a deck I want to play). I use this deck: Dhund Operative (http://magiccards.info/kld/en/74.html), Lightning Greaves (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/199.html), Peat Bog (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/322.html). My opponent plays Fable Wright's round 19 deck: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Increasing Devotion. I have the Operative in play as a 3/2 creature with deathtouch, and attack for 3 each of my turns starting from the second. In their turn 7, the opponent puts five 1/1 tokens into play, which have summoning sickness. In my turn after that turn, I attack with the Operative again. Suppose the opponent tries to block with all five tokens. Can I assign damage such that four of the five tokens get half a point of deathtouch damage at that point, killing all the tokens? (Update: to make it clear, the Increasing Devotion deck wins this game easily regardless of the answer, both because of the flashback and because it will only block with two tokens.)

That's useful, thanks. However, I'm going to say that while Un-cards are always legal, the game is only an Un-game if any Un-cards are actually present in the game, so your example wouldn't work.


Update: A different un-rules question. About Booster Tutor (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/51.html). Why would I have to pick three cards from the same booster? Can't I bring three unopened boosters from three different expansion sets to the games, and make my sideboard consist of three cards total, one from each of those boosters?

I'm going to say no, as that would really be stretching the sideboard rule to its limits.

Another clarification. If you use an Un-card that cares about some element of a physical card (such as artist, foil status, reminder text and so on) and there exist multiple printings, you are assumed to use the worst printing for you and your opponent is assumed to use the best printing for them unless one of you specified otherwise.

(I dread the day someone plays Richard Garfield, Ph.D.and forces me to determine the optimal card for them to play.

Fable Wright
2016-11-03, 12:06 AM
(I dread the day someone plays Richard Garfield, Ph.D.and forces me to determine the optimal card for them to play.

At that point, you do the matches you can easily resolve with Richard, and the hard ones just have a win-loss record of ??. Get everyone else to try and figure out the optimal play there.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-03, 12:27 AM
Given they'd be down to one card, it'd be doable with a heavily filtered search. Unless they choose cunning wish to make it 4x the options. Then you give them LL unless they prove otherwise for being a smart Alec. Or just make then pick a sideboard for "cards that exist".

b_jonas
2016-11-03, 04:12 AM
That's useful, thanks. However, I'm going to say that while Un-cards are always legal, the game is only an Un-game if any Un-cards are actually present in the game, so your example wouldn't work. Okay, but I'm still not allowed if I just put an un-card in my sideboard without actually having any access to that sideboard, right?

Ninjaman
2016-11-03, 12:04 PM
Shouldn't booster tutor work like this:
You pick the booster from the set that is best for you, but you open the worst possible booster you can, effectively meaning booster tutor sucks so don't play it.

TiaC
2016-11-03, 12:39 PM
Shouldn't booster tutor work like this:
You pick the booster from the set that is best for you, but you open the worst possible booster you can, effectively meaning booster tutor sucks so don't play it.

I've gone over this before, but I treat boosters as hidden information, not a random event. So, you know what's in the booster before you open it.

b_jonas
2016-11-03, 07:06 PM
I've just spent some hours trying to make a good deck. The deck I tried to make failed, because it loses to both instant-speed creature removal and discard. A lot of decks are running one of those, and both of those are here to stay, because there's more than one good card that can be used for that. For instant-speed creature removal, the best ones are Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, and if those go out, there's still some weaker ones like Lightning Bolt, Ulcerate, Disfigure. For discard, since Blackmail is banned, the best option is Cabal Therapy and Burning Inquiry (both of these pop up in decks a lot), and after that, there's specific ones like Enroach, Thoughtsieze, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Ostracize.

Oh, by the way, everyone: don't read the ban list in the first post, that's not up to date. Find the latest ban list instead. Currrently that's in http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21329905. (I learned this the hard way.)

Fable Wright
2016-11-03, 07:23 PM
I've just spent some hours trying to make a good deck. The deck I tried to make failed, because it loses to both instant-speed creature removal and discard.

Story of my life.

Thing is, you're not making a three-card deck. You're making a 2 card mono-colored deck, plus a mana source. One of those cards has to be a threat, meaning that your second card will be disruption, counter-disruption, or a synergy piece at the cost of losing to discard disruption.

Many successful decks will try to make their threat a piece of disruption as well, freeing up the second slot a bit.

Alternatively, you're trying to make an all-land deck, but most of the lands that can support this strategy have disappeared by now.

TiaC
2016-11-03, 10:40 PM
Hey, Dr. Gunsforhands, I didn't get your PM due to having a full inbox. I've cleaned it out now.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, about the discussion of disruption decks, remember that most of them are far less effective when they go second. So, if you can trade with them and win against the other decks that also lack first-turn disruption, you'll probably win. (Or you can just try to play a more effective first-turn disruption deck.)

TiaC
2016-11-04, 11:34 PM
Forgot to post this.

Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: ben-zayb
Bronze: Fable Wright
He'll be back: Ninjaman
Therapy hasn't helped: tgva8889
Spelunking: Gauntlet
Trapped in the circle of life: b_jonas


Land: Ancient Tomb, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Blackmail, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

TiaC
2016-11-07, 12:27 AM
Round 21 is here and it's a big one.

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Fable Wright: Fountain of Cho (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19893), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192), Increasing Devotion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409590)
Gauntlet: Ebon Stronghold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270467), Bitterblossom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397701), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Jormengand: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://magiccards.info/hho/en/9.html), Nuisance Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205297), Leyline of the Meek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107699)
ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
b_jonas: Gemstone Mine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109761), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096), Basking Rootwalla (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393880)
Fortuna: Peat Bog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19644), Mesmeric Fiend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383013), Bitterblossom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397701)
Tom the Mime: Cenn's tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Scrubland (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383083), Shrieking Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265409)

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (3)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (6)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (9)
Vs. Fortuna: WL (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (12)

Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (6)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (13)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (16)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (22)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (25)

Fable Wright: Fountain of Cho (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19893), Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382192), Increasing Devotion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409590)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (9)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (11)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (14)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (14)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (14)

Gauntlet: Ebon Stronghold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270467), Bitterblossom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397701), Mental Misstep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230066)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: WW (12)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (18)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (24)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (24)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (30)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (30)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (36)

Jormengand: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://magiccards.info/hho/en/9.html), Nuisance Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205297), Leyline of the Meek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107699)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (14)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (17)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (17)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (17)

ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733), Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: DL (7)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (15)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (17)
Vs. b_jonas: DL (18)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (24)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (24)

b_jonas: Gemstone Mine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109761), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096), Basking Rootwalla (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393880)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (9)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (16)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (22)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (25)

Fortuna: Peat Bog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19644), Mesmeric Fiend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383013), Bitterblossom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397701)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (15)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (21)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (21)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (21)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (21)

Tom the Mime: Cenn's tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152878), Scrubland (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383083), Shrieking Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265409)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (9)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (15)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (15)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (21)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (27)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (30)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (36)

Fortuna
2016-11-07, 01:21 AM
I missed that Peat Bog enters tapped, which cost me dearly - but I think not quite as dearly as you've noted. Against tgva8889, you've correctly put me down as WL on their scores, but as LL on mine - when I go first, tgva can either therapy my Bitterblossom (in which case I Fiend the baloth and win), therapy my Fiend (in which case my Bitterblossom outraces the baloth), or suspend baloth (in which case Bitterblossom still outraces). I don't see how Gauntlet can get a win against me; Mental Misstep is dead against my deck since both cards have CMC 2, and whoever plays a Bitterblossom first loses, so my Fiend can always take out the opposing Bitterblossom and clear the way for my win. The rest of my results stand, I think, although I'm not convinced by letting Mishra's Toy Factory cast a spell that becomes a permanent that has an ability that makes tokens - seems a little too indirect for the wording of the ability. Next time I'll read my cards more carefully.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-07, 01:44 AM
Agreed that fortuna is WW against gauntlet.

Also, Fable is WW against zayb, always saving the land to exile mutavault (can't be bounced as it's still a land and singularity doesn't effect it). Always tap to add a storage counter to during zayb's end phase then pay it and the flashback at the same time and overrun with 15 1/1s.

With the factory, word of MaRo says no - markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/105882037433/so-even-though-acorn-catapult-doesnt-immediately. Given how you run things, I guess it's Jorm's next deck in line now?

Edit: had to remove the http as I have hardly any posts outside message board games which I should rectify at some point

TiaC
2016-11-07, 01:55 AM
I missed that Peat Bog enters tapped, which cost me dearly - but I think not quite as dearly as you've noted. Against tgva8889, you've correctly put me down as WL on their scores, but as LL on mine - when I go first, tgva can either therapy my Bitterblossom (in which case I Fiend the baloth and win), therapy my Fiend (in which case my Bitterblossom outraces the baloth), or suspend baloth (in which case Bitterblossom still outraces). I don't see how Gauntlet can get a win against me; Mental Misstep is dead against my deck since both cards have CMC 2, and whoever plays a Bitterblossom first loses, so my Fiend can always take out the opposing Bitterblossom and clear the way for my win.

Fixed.


Also, Fable is WW against zayb, always saving the land to exile mutavault (can't be bounced as it's still a land and singularity doesn't effect it). Always tap to add a storage counter to during zayb's end phase then pay it and the flashback at the same time and overrun with 15 1/1s.

Actually, it's DD, as the leyline means that he can only have one token out at a time.


With the factory, word of MaRo says no - markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/105882037433/so-even-though-acorn-catapult-doesnt-immediately. Given how you run things, I guess it's Jorm's next deck in line now?

Ok, that's obscure enough that I missed it, but for future rounds, that applies. Sorry, Jormengand.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-07, 02:06 AM
Actually, it's DD, as the leyline means that he can only have one token out at a time.

Good point. And I missed the same point with empty the warrens last time too.

Interesting that tgva and ninja have had the same decks for a while and zayb and fable had the same as last time. Given that's a good chunk of the decks, that's a fair fair bit you can design around.

Fable Wright
2016-11-07, 02:59 AM
Good point. And I missed the same point with empty the warrens last time too.

Interesting that tgva and ninja have had the same decks for a while and zayb and fable had the same as last time. Given that's a good chunk of the decks, that's a fair fair bit you can design around.

Yeah, a stable-ish meta is evolving from tgva and ninja, so I wanted to see how devotion mark 2 would go. Didn't consider Bitterblossom as a threat, though, so I'll almost definitely be changing up next round.

Gauntlet
2016-11-07, 05:28 AM
Don't I beat Jormengand? I make 2/2 flying tokens and Nusiance Engine makes 1/2 tokens - If I never leave tokens back to block I have lethal on my turn 7, at which point I've lost 5 life to Bitterblossom. I'm not going to take 15 by that time - I always have a summoning sick Faerie to block with, so I take 9 max (wait till 4 attackers on turn 5, swing for 3 per turn with one guy dying to the blocking Faerie) before I get the kill.

Edit: Fortuna's functionally the same deck in that matchup so should also win here.

Fable Wright
2016-11-07, 11:40 AM
Edit: Fortuna's functionally the same deck in that matchup so should also win here.

Fortuna has 1/1 fliers against 1/2 Pests, which makes early blocking much more difficult and the clock significantly slower.

Gauntlet
2016-11-07, 12:14 PM
Fortuna has 1/1 fliers against 1/2 Pests, which makes early blocking much more difficult and the clock significantly slower.

Leyline of the Meek affects all tokens. The Bitterblossom fliers are 2/2s.

TiaC
2016-11-07, 06:50 PM
Don't I beat Jormengand? I make 2/2 flying tokens and Nusiance Engine makes 1/2 tokens - If I never leave tokens back to block I have lethal on my turn 7, at which point I've lost 5 life to Bitterblossom. I'm not going to take 15 by that time - I always have a summoning sick Faerie to block with, so I take 9 max (wait till 4 attackers on turn 5, swing for 3 per turn with one guy dying to the blocking Faerie) before I get the kill.

Edit: Fortuna's functionally the same deck in that matchup so should also win here.

Your turns are wrong (You deal lethal on turn 9, but Jormengand doesn't have 4 attackers until turn 6), but your overall point looks correct. Fixed.

ben-zayb
2016-11-07, 10:38 PM
Not sure how ninjaman and b_Jonas draws with me on the play. The rootwala dies to my Uncle Istvan Island-fish, while Bloodghast is taking a vacation on its owner's hand

Tom the Mime
2016-11-07, 10:57 PM
You can't play both lands before they get a chance to make you discard the other one. Mutavault is strong against sorcery speed removal and targeted discard in that deck but weaker against untargeted discard, token generation and anything that can cast it's threat each turn (compared with something like student of warfare)

ben-zayb
2016-11-08, 01:03 AM
:smallredface: whoops
I keep on forgetting mutavault's supposed to be a land.

Gauntlet
2016-11-13, 03:18 PM
So Tom the Mime and I are on 36 points each.

That adds Bitterblossom, Ebon Stronghold, Mental Misstep, Cenn's Tactician, Scrubland and Shrieking Affliction to the banlist.

Shall we send in decklists for next round?

TiaC
2016-11-13, 04:06 PM
So Tom the Mime and I are on 36 points each.

That adds Bitterblossom, Ebon Stronghold, Mental Misstep, Cenn's Tactician, Scrubland and Shrieking Affliction to the banlist.

Shall we send in decklists for next round?

Yes, please do. This is the problem with not posting results immediately, I forget to do it entirely.

Gold: Tom the Mime, Gauntlet
Silver: Ninjaman, b_jonas
Bronze: ben-zayb
Mesmerized: Fortuna
Being a nuisance: Jormengand
Devoted to a losing path: Fable Wright
Therapy has not stopped the flashbacks: tgva8889


Land: Ancient Tomb, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ebon Stronghold, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Scrubland, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Bitterblossom, Blackmail, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Shrieking Affliction, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Mental Misstep, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Cenn's Tactician, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

TiaC
2016-11-17, 05:37 PM
Round 22 is on now.

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Fable Wright: Mercadian Bazaar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19894), Ensnaring Bridge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45478), Devil's Play (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368518)
Jormengand: Sandstone Needle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19645), Clout of the Dominus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152092), Nivmagus Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=290526)
Tom the Mime: Creeping mold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417723), Roar of the Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413724), Rushwood grove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19895)
Gauntlet: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://i.tcgplayer.com/95046_200w.jpg), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Westvale Abbey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049)
ben-zayb: Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892), Body Snatcher (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15189), Vengeful Pharaoh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220170)
b_jonas: Bottomless Vault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4176), Phage the Untouchable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382324), Evil Presents (http://i.tcgplayer.com/38446_200w.jpg)


tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (3)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (9)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (11)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (11)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (13)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (19)

Ninjaman: Undiscovered Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3755), Bloodghast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Burning Inquiry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (9)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (15)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (18)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (24)
Vs. ben-zayb: WD (28)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (34)

Fable Wright: Mercadian Bazaar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19894), Ensnaring Bridge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45478), Devil's Play (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368518)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (6)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (12)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (24)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (24)

Jormengand: Sandstone Needle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19645), Clout of the Dominus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152092), Nivmagus Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=290526)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (8)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (8)

Tom the Mime: Creeping mold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417723), Roar of the Wurm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413724), Rushwood grove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19895)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (2)
Vs. Ninjaman: WL (5)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (11)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (11)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (17)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (23)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (26)

Gauntlet: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://i.tcgplayer.com/95046_200w.jpg), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Westvale Abbey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (6)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (18)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (18)

ben-zayb: Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892), Body Snatcher (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15189), Vengeful Pharaoh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220170)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (2)
Vs. Ninjaman: DL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (3)
Vs. Jormengand: DD (5)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (5)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (5)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (5)

b_jonas: Bottomless Vault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4176), Phage the Untouchable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382324), Evil Presents (http://i.tcgplayer.com/38446_200w.jpg)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Ninjaman: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (6)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (15)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (21)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (27)

It looks like Ninjaman finally won!

b_jonas
2016-11-17, 06:17 PM
Round 22 is on now. Hey! I did send a deck for round 22, right after I sent my deck for round 21. It's not a good deck, mind you, but I still think it should participate.

Fable Wright
2016-11-17, 06:17 PM
I am torn about this.

On the one hand, Tom used my own deck strategy to beat me, and I'm still stuck on a personal record of Silver.

On the other, I can FINALLY stop trying to design around Burning Inquiry! What a relief.

TiaC
2016-11-17, 08:06 PM
Hey! I did send a deck for round 22, right after I sent my deck for round 21. It's not a good deck, mind you, but I still think it should participate.

Sorry, missed that because the PM title still said round 21. The text of the PM made it clear though, so I added you in.

ben-zayb
2016-11-17, 08:11 PM
Drat. I knew I shouldn't have changed my deck and designed against burning inquiry. Karakas + Singularity should get W against most of the decks.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-17, 08:42 PM
Nothing that changes the winner but I think gauntlet draws with tgva and jorm. The token generation starting T3 and the 7 tokens needed to get the sacrifice and the mana is too much to weather so they have to chump block forever, not making any ground but not taking damage.

Ninja is WD against zayb as if he doesn't attack when on play, zayb still can't do anything.

I think I'm DD with tgva. He suspends the baloth then uses therapy just before i can cast wurm w/o flashback. Leaves a 6/6 and lower life against a 5/5.

Gauntlet
2016-11-18, 03:50 AM
Nothing that changes the winner but I think gauntlet draws with tgva and jorm. The token generation starting T3 and the 7 tokens needed to get the sacrifice and the mana is too much to weather so they have to chump block forever, not making any ground but not taking damage.

I actually need ten tokens to make Ormendahl, I can't use Factory mana for it because it doesn't make tokens. I can, however, make a 1/1 token with the Abbey before I need to start blocking - then if they swing into my Goat blocker, I can hit them for 1 on the backswing and eventually kill them, but if they stay back to block I eventually get to 10 Goats and kill them with Ormendahl.

b_jonas
2016-11-18, 06:34 AM
First reaction: wow... how did my deck win this much? What's happened to all the control decks with Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares? And why are there only two decks that discard my cards?

Now for the metagame. Since Burning Inquiry is getting banned, we'll have to prepare against Cabal Therapy and Path to Exile decks though. That means we'll probably have to build decks with a land and two other cards such that you still win if one of those two are discarded. A Forest and two Myr Servitors probably doesn't cut it yet though, I'll need something trickier. Alternately, I guess a land-only deck can still work.

Gauntlet
2016-11-18, 07:11 AM
Cabal Therapy and Path to Exile decks

Swords doesn't work against your deck anyway to be fair.

I don't know if they'll do very well to be honest. Therapy doesn't do enough against a lot of the finishers going round at the moment (Roar of the Wurm, Devil's Play, Vengeful Pharaoh) and quite a lot of them aren't creatures either.

ben-zayb
2016-11-18, 08:03 AM
I dunno, that's probably the last you'll see me with Vengeful Pharaoh. It's good at preventing loss from mono-permanently-killable-attacker, which is still very situational, but terrible at ensuring wins.

Ninjaman
2016-11-18, 09:52 AM
Yes! Finally!
After winning the very first round we ever did I finally win another round.

TiaC
2016-11-19, 02:35 PM
I remembered to post these for once!

Gold: Ninjaman
Silver: b_jonas
Bronze: Tom the Mime
Bedeviled: Fable Wright
PTSD: tgva8889
Julbocken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Goat): Gauntlet
Clouted: Jormengand
In need of vengeance: ben-zayb

Land: Ancient Tomb, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ebon Stronghold, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Scrubland, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Undiscovered Paradise, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Bitterblossom, Blackmail, Bloodghast, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Shrieking Affliction, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Mental Misstep, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus

Red: Burning Inquiry, Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Cenn's Tactician, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

TiaC
2016-11-25, 09:58 PM
Happy Thanksgiving, fellow Americans! It's round 23!

tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
b_jonas: Remote Farm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/323.html), Kor Duelist (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/19.html), Flayer Husk (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/107.html)
Fable Wright: Peat Bog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19644), Sinkhole (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413648), Lupine Prototype (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414504)
Jormengand: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1534), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635)
Tom the Mime: Young wolf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262872), Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Mind swords (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21313)
Gauntlet: Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Crack The Earth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74480)
ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Empty-Shrine Kannushi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74513), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
Bucky: Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Funeral Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=108895), Blackcleave Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209401)



tgva8889: Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Cabal Therapy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413625), Durkwood Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370482)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (10)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (13)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (16)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (17)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (18)
Vs. Bucky: DL (19)

b_jonas: Remote Farm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/323.html), Kor Duelist (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/19.html), Flayer Husk (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/107.html)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (3)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (4)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (4)
Vs. Bucky: DL (5)

Fable Wright: Peat Bog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19644), Sinkhole (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413648), Lupine Prototype (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414504)
Vs. tgva8889: DL (1)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (7)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (13)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (13)
Vs. Gauntlet: DL (14)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (16)
Vs. Bucky: WW (22)

Jormengand: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1534), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635), Gravecrawler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=409635)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (7)
Vs. Gauntlet: WL (10)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (10)
Vs. Bucky: DL (11)

Tom the Mime: Young wolf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262872), Bayou (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382860), Mind swords (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21313)
Vs. tgva8889: WL (3)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (9)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (15)
Vs. Jormengand: WD (19)
Vs. Gauntlet: WD (23)
Vs. ben-zayb: WL (26)
Vs. Bucky: WD (30)

Gauntlet: Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712), Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Crack The Earth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74480)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. b_jonas: WD (8)
Vs. Fable Wright: WD (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WL (15)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (16)
Vs. ben-zayb: DL (17)
Vs. Bucky: DL (18)

ben-zayb: Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Empty-Shrine Kannushi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74513), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (10)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (18)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (21)
Vs. Gauntlet: WD (25)
Vs. Bucky: DD (27)

Bucky: Stromkirk Noble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230783), Funeral Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=108895), Blackcleave Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209401)
Vs. tgva8889: WD (4)
Vs. b_jonas: WD (8)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (8)
Vs. Jormengand: WD (12)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DL (13)
Vs. Gauntlet: WD (17)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (19)

Fable Wright
2016-11-25, 10:52 PM
I'm confused. How do I draw with ben-zayb? Sinkhole blows up Karakas before it can mess up Lupine Prototype, and then I proceed to cast it as normal. Kannushi doesn't have protection from the Prototype, as the prototype is Colorless, and I simply don't see how it can clock me before the construct hits Ben 4 times.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-25, 11:01 PM
I think I'm WD with Jorm as mind swords exiles rather than discards so there's no gravecrawler recursion and it's a 2/2 v 2/1.


I'm confused. How do I draw with ben-zayb? Sinkhole blows up Karakas before it can mess up Lupine Prototype, and then I proceed to cast it as normal. Kannushi doesn't have protection from the Prototype, as the prototype is Colorless, and I simply don't see how it can clock me before the construct hits Ben 4 times.

He holds karakas back until you play the prototype and bounces it. Then you don't have enough depletion counters to both cast sinkhole and recast the prototype so it ends up as a draw.

TiaC
2016-11-25, 11:45 PM
I think I'm WD with Jorm as mind swords exiles rather than discards so there's no gravecrawler recursion and it's a 2/2 v 2/1.

He holds karakas back until you play the prototype and bounces it. Then you don't have enough depletion counters to both cast sinkhole and recast the prototype so it ends up as a draw.

Yes and yes. You need to let someone else win once in a while, Tom.

b_jonas
2016-11-26, 03:33 PM
Why do I lose against Jormengard when he has first turn?

I don't block, and he can't block. His turn 1, plays one Gravecrawler. My turn 1, play Duelist and Husk. His turn 2, play other Gravecrawler, attack with one of them, I'm at 18. My turn 2, I equip the Husk, attack, he's at 16. His turn 3, attack with both Gravecrawlers, I'm at 14. My turn 3, attack with the Husk, he's at 12. His turn 4, attack, I'm at 10. My turn 4, attack, he's at 8. His turn 5, attack, I'm at 6. My turn 5, attack, he's at 4. His turn 6, attack, I'm at 2. My turn 6, attack, he's at 0 and dies.

Also, I think my game against Gauntlet is a draw if he has first turn, and a win for me if I have first turn.

Suppose he starts. He doesn't have mana to cast both cards the first turn. If he casts Crack the Earth his first turn, then we both have no lands and can't do anything, so the game is a draw. If he casts Stormkirk Noble or nothing the first turn, then I cast both my cards the first turn. In later turns, I never equip, and I attack with one dude and keep the other one at home to block the first time Stormkirk Noble attacks, which is a trade. If he blocks with the Noble, that's still a trade, and for the rest of the game I attack with my other dude. In either case, I get to attack with one dude each turn except the first, and he blocks in at most one turn, so I kill him in my turn 22. If he ever casts Crack, then we can both sacrifice our lands, since we no longer need them, so the game doesn't change at all.

If I start, then I cast both dudes, attack with one of them, keep one of them at home to block the Stormkirk Noble. If he blocks, I start attacking with the other dude. Again, I attack with one dude each turn, and win by turn 22. If he casts Crack the Earth, we both sacrifice our lands, but it's too late, I've cast both my creatures by that time and don't need more mana.

Update. TiaC: in your post, Karakas (in ben-zayb's deck) links to Mutavault.

Update: nice interesting decks, everyone. It's great to play against you guys.

TiaC
2016-11-26, 03:49 PM
Why do I lose against Jormengard when he has first turn?

I don't block, and he can't block. His turn 1, plays one Gravecrawler. My turn 1, play Duelist and Husk. His turn 2, play other Gravecrawler, attack with one of them, I'm at 18. My turn 2, I equip the Husk, attack, he's at 16. His turn 3, attack with both Gravecrawlers, I'm at 14. My turn 3, attack with the Husk, he's at 12. His turn 4, attack, I'm at 10. My turn 4, attack, he's at 8. His turn 5, attack, I'm at 6. My turn 5, attack, he's at 4. His turn 6, attack, I'm at 2. My turn 6, attack, he's at 0 and dies.

Also, I think my game against Gauntlet is a draw if he has first turn, and a win for me if I have first turn.

Suppose he starts. He doesn't have mana to cast both cards the first turn. If he casts Crack the Earth his first turn, then we both have no lands and can't do anything, so the game is a draw. If he casts Stormkirk Noble or nothing the first turn, then I cast both my cards the first turn. In later turns, I never equip, and I attack with one dude and keep the other one at home to block the first time Stormkirk Noble attacks, which is a trade. If he blocks with the Noble, that's still a trade, and for the rest of the game I attack with my other dude. In either case, I get to attack with one dude each turn except the first, and he blocks in at most one turn, so I kill him in my turn 22. If he ever casts Crack, then we can both sacrifice our lands, since we no longer need them, so the game doesn't change at all.

If I start, then I cast both dudes, attack with one of them, keep one of them at home to block the Stormkirk Noble. If he blocks, I start attacking with the other dude. Again, I attack with one dude each turn, and win by turn 22. If he casts Crack the Earth, we both sacrifice our lands, but it's too late, I've cast both my creatures by that time and don't need more mana.

Remote Farm comes into play tapped. So, you're a turn slower than you think. This means Jormengand can outrace you and Gauntlet can either play the Noble and then blow up your land or just trade lands.

b_jonas
2016-11-26, 03:57 PM
Remote Farm comes into play tapped. So, you're a turn slower than you think. This means Jormengand can outrace you and Gauntlet can either play the Noble and then blow up your land or just trade lands. Oh duh. Yes, I'm stupid. Thanks.

Tom the Mime
2016-11-26, 07:24 PM
Yes and yes. You need to let someone else win once in a while, Tom.

If it helps, I think I'm out of ideas that are strong in fair few metas. And with people finding land destruction again and multiple discard T1 being gone now (I think), the meta will probably destabilize again.

Bucky
2016-11-27, 12:21 AM
I can draw against Jormengand. I attack with Noble until it's a 3/3 and then defend. If he attacks, I block one Gravecrawler and Funeral Charm the other during combat, and he can't resurrect them.

I also think I race him on the play; check my math please?


(E) Interesting side note, I picked up a point vs. ben-zayb by using Funeral Charm over Piracy Charm.

TiaC
2016-11-27, 03:25 AM
I can draw against Jormengand. I attack with Noble until it's a 3/3 and then defend. If he attacks, I block one Gravecrawler and Funeral Charm the other during combat, and he can't resurrect them.

I also think I race him on the play; check my math please?


(E) Interesting side note, I picked up a point vs. ben-zayb by using Funeral Charm over Piracy Charm.

Looks right to me. (Weird, I had Gauntlet outracing him on the play, but not you.)

- - - Updated - - -

Now, I should post these. Interestingly, tgva8889 is going to need to change his deck too, now that Bayou is banned.

Gold: Tom the Mime
Silver: ben-zayb
Bronze: Fable Wright
[adjective-place creature] + [1-mana discard]: tgva8889, Bucky
Cracked up: Gauntlet
Have to crawl before you can walk: Jormengand
Hick: b_jonas

Land: Ancient Tomb, Bayou, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ebon Stronghold, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Scrubland, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Undiscovered Paradise, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Bitterblossom, Blackmail, Bloodghast, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Entomber Exarch, Mind Swords, Shrieking Affliction, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Mental Misstep, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus, Young Wolf

Red: Burning Inquiry, Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Cenn's Tactician, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

ben-zayb
2016-11-27, 09:34 AM
By the way, TiaC, you already got ideas for the 25th round?

b_jonas
2016-11-27, 10:58 AM
By the way, TiaC, you already got ideas for the 25th round? Eh what? Isn't it only every tenth round that's special?

Gauntlet
2016-11-27, 03:23 PM
Damn, I was thinking about the Young Wolf / Mind Swords deck (it was in my backlog) but I was expecting more discard spells and less aggressive creatures.

TiaC
2016-11-29, 01:21 AM
By the way, TiaC, you already got ideas for the 25th round?

Some, but nothing really sticks out.

I just noticed that this thread has now gone more rounds than the first one. (Although I am short on decks for the next round. Step it up, people!)

Fable Wright
2016-11-29, 01:25 AM
Some, but nothing really sticks out.

I just noticed that this thread has now gone more rounds than the first one. (Although I am short on decks for the next round. Step it up, people!)

...Can't really do that unless you allow multiple entries in a given round.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2016-11-29, 01:50 AM
...Can't really do that unless you allow multiple entries in a given round.

Just saying...that's an interesting idea right there. Two-headed Giant Three Card Blind.

b_jonas
2016-11-29, 02:14 PM
Just saying...that's an interesting idea right there. Two-headed Giant Three Card Blind. No no no no. With this card pool that includes all the old overpowered cards and a very small ban list, two-headed giant three card blind would have the same problem as four card blind. If you have more than three cards, you can pull off way more powerful and more complicated combos than when you only have three cards. I suspect it would be too powerful, in the sense that too many decks would go off in first turn. But even if not, it would really be a different game that doesn't resemble this one much.

Tom the Mime
2016-12-03, 12:32 AM
No no no no. With this card pool that includes all the old overpowered cards and a very small ban list, two-headed giant three card blind would have the same problem as four card blind. If you have more than three cards, you can pull off way more powerful and more complicated combos than when you only have three cards. I suspect it would be too powerful, in the sense that too many decks would go off in first turn. But even if not, it would really be a different game that doesn't resemble this one much.

The winning decks for the last 3 out of 4 rounds either won or completely locked their opponent out of the game T1. It's possible that 2HG might open that up a little as now you'd have space for T0 disruption and a threat.

TiaC
2016-12-06, 11:43 PM
It's been a while, but here's round 24.

b_jonas: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1604), Encroach (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/59.html), Corpulent Corpse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/98.html)
Fable Wright: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73972), Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2444), Liliana the Last Hope (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414388)
Tom the Mime: Vault of Whispers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205313), Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2444), Liliana the Last Hope (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414388)
Gauntlet: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://magiccards.info/hho/en/9.html), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Westvale Abbey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049)
Jormengand: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=420604), Fasting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1807), Serra Ascendant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204989)
ben-zayb: Tethered Griffin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15769), Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)

b_jonas: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1604), Encroach (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/59.html), Corpulent Corpse (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/98.html)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (3)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (9)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (9)
Vs. ben-zayb: WL (12)

Fable Wright: Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73972), Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2444), Liliana the Last Hope (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414388)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WL (9)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (15)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (21)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (23)

Tom the Mime: Vault of Whispers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205313), Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2444), Liliana the Last Hope (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414388)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: WL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (12)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (20)

Gauntlet: Mishra's Toy Workshop (http://magiccards.info/hho/en/9.html), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Westvale Abbey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (0)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (0)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (0)

Jormengand: Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=420604), Fasting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1807), Serra Ascendant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204989)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (6)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: LL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (12)

ben-zayb: Tethered Griffin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15769), Karakas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=413782), Leyline of Singularity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107697)
Vs. b_jonas: WL (3)
Vs. Fable Wright: DD (5)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (7)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (13)
Vs. Jormengand: WW (19)

Tom gets a silver for no good reason at all. Congratulations to Fable Wright!


Gold: Fable Wright
Silver: Tom the Mime
Bronze: ben-zayb
Wait for it: b_jonas, Jormengand
Lanzamiento de cabra desde campanario (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWXKA45Y8z0): Gauntlet


Land: Ancient Tomb, Bayou, Bazaar of Baghdad, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ebon Stronghold, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Scrubland, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Undiscovered Paradise, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Bitterblossom, Blackmail, Bloodghast, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Dark Ritual, Entomber Exarch, Liliana the Last Hope, Mind Swords, Shrieking Affliction, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Mental Misstep, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus, Young Wolf

Red: Burning Inquiry, Chancellor of the Forge

White: Balance, Cenn's Tactician, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

For round 25, we will play Backbuild. You are trying to make a deck that loses. Scores will be calculated as if the players switched decks, so you want the deck you submit to be really bad at winning. However, your deck needs to be able to win. If it cannot defeat a goldfish, you will be disqualified.

Fable Wright
2016-12-06, 11:56 PM
Get out of my head, Tom.

...Though, why did you run Vault of Whispers over a basic Swamp? Just wanted to get it on the ban list?

TiaC
2016-12-07, 12:08 AM
Get out of my head, Tom.

...Though, why did you run Vault of Whispers over a basic Swamp? Just wanted to get it on the ban list?

You know, I asked him that too, in case he thought it would help him out somehow. He replied:


Whim? Swamp was a little dull.

Tom the Mime
2016-12-07, 01:06 AM
Get out of my head, Tom.

...Though, why did you run Vault of Whispers over a basic Swamp? Just wanted to get it on the ban list?
Heh. Yeah, just a whim. Didn't think it'd make much difference and the same cards still got banned.

TiaC
2016-12-07, 01:26 AM
I'm going to make the goldfish condition a bit clearer. Your deck needs to be able to win against a deck with no cards in it. That deck will still try to win, so you can't give them creatures that will kill you.

b_jonas
2016-12-07, 07:44 AM
There were some interesting decks in round 24. Jormengard: your deck took me a while to understand, but it's very clever. You gain life both from the Ascendant's damage and from Fasting, so in your fifth turn, you already attack with an activated 6/6 Serra Ascendant.

On Tom running a Vault of Whispers.

Heh. Yeah, just a whim. Didn't think it'd make much difference and the same cards still got banned. HA! My guess was right, Encroach works because people run non-basic lands at whim. It wasn't enough to make my deck perform well, but at least I get to be king-maker.

TiaC: in your table of results, under Jormengard, two matches are missing the result.

TiaC, also, can you explain how exactly this special round 25 works?

What exactly do you count as a goldfish in this context? Does the goldfish have three copies of Forest in his deck and nothing else, with the same general rules as the matches in normal rounds (eg. players don't lose for failing to draw)?
Does every deck play two games against the goldfish, one where I start and one where the goldfish starts, have to win in at least one of those matches games, but don't gain any score from those matches games no matter what?
What strategy do you use during games? Does every player try to win if possible, or try to draw the game if winning is not possible? Does this apply to versus matches and both players in goldfish matches?


Update: also, can you give a guess on when this special round will start? I had only been thinking about decks for the normal rounds, and this one requires completely different thinking.

Update: removed the part about the goldfish player's deck, because TiaC has answered that in a previous post: the goldfish player has an empty deck.

Gauntlet
2016-12-07, 09:17 AM
Does every deck play two games against the goldfish, one where I start and one where the goldfish starts, have to win in at least one of those matches, but don't gain any score from those matches no matter what?
What strategy do you use during games? Does every player try to win if possible, or try to draw the game if winning is not possible? Does this apply to versus matches and both players in goldfish matches?
[/list]

I don't think it's an actual match on the scores, you're just disqualified if you can't beat an opponent with a 0-card deck. I can't think of any decks where the win/lose depends on who has first turn against an opponent who just passes the turn anyway, but I would imagine you'd have to win both games.

Both players still try to win and make optimal plays according to the normal rules.

Jormengand
2016-12-07, 10:24 AM
Don't I DD with Ben-Zayb, whose griffon can't kill me while I'm fasting for the same amount of damage it deals?

Gauntlet
2016-12-07, 11:10 AM
Don't I DD with Ben-Zayb, whose griffon can't kill me while I'm fasting for the same amount of damage it deals?

Fasting only works five times and then goes away.

Jormengand
2016-12-07, 11:29 AM
Fasting only works five times and then goes away.

Oh, yeah, right. I didn't read it properly. Clearly, it was OP until they added the inability to use it more than 5 times. :smallsigh:

ben-zayb
2016-12-08, 01:48 AM
Let me see if I got this correctly: for each match, we'll basically be switching decks with that match's opponent, then proceed with the rest of the normal 3CB rules. Is that it?

If yes, then my submission is already good to go

TiaC
2016-12-08, 05:15 AM
TiaC: in your table of results, under Jormengard, two matches are missing the result.

TiaC, also, can you explain how exactly this special round 25 works?

What exactly do you count as a goldfish in this context? Does the goldfish have three copies of Forest in his deck and nothing else, with the same general rules as the matches in normal rounds (eg. players don't lose for failing to draw)?
Does every deck play two games against the goldfish, one where I start and one where the goldfish starts, have to win in at least one of those matches games, but don't gain any score from those matches games no matter what?
What strategy do you use during games? Does every player try to win if possible, or try to draw the game if winning is not possible? Does this apply to versus matches and both players in goldfish matches?


Update: also, can you give a guess on when this special round will start? I had only been thinking about decks for the normal rounds, and this one requires completely different thinking.

Update: removed the part about the goldfish player's deck, because TiaC has answered that in a previous post: the goldfish player has an empty deck.

Goldfish matches do have the same rules as normal matches. Gauntlet is right, you need to be able to win on both the draw and the play against a goldfish, but these matches will not be included in your score. (No using Gemstone Caverns to cheese that.) Every player tries to win if possible and draw if they can't win, including the goldfish. The only exception is if you play Splendid Genesis or Fraternal Exaltation. The new player created by this wants you to lose more than he wants to win, and you will play to make your opponent lose if you can't draw.

The round is unlikely to happen before next Tuesday, as I am completely swamped right now.


Fasting only works five times and then goes away.


Oh, yeah, right. I didn't read it properly. Clearly, it was OP until they added the inability to use it more than 5 times. :smallsigh:

Even worse, it only works four times, as the counter is put on before the draw step.


Let me see if I got this correctly: for each match, we'll basically be switching decks with that match's opponent, then proceed with the rest of the normal 3CB rules. Is that it?

If yes, then my submission is already good to go

Yes, that's right, and your submission looks fine.

ben-zayb
2016-12-11, 08:16 AM
Is it just me or is anyone else guessing the next round's meta will focus on a single card?

b_jonas
2016-12-11, 10:55 AM
Is it just me or is anyone else guessing the next round's meta will focus on a single card? I don't know what you're talking about. I can't guess what the metagame will be, so I'm just using a non-interactive deck that tries to win very slowly, without really knowing what strategies I'll be countering.

Bucky
2016-12-11, 03:53 PM
I think it's bad form to discuss one's deck choice pre-reveal.

Fable Wright
2016-12-11, 04:41 PM
Is it just me or is anyone else guessing the next round's meta will focus on a single card?

...Which card? Fairly certain that none of the three I used are likely to be used in someone else's unrelated deck.

ben-zayb
2016-12-11, 08:03 PM
I think it's bad form to discuss one's deck choice pre-reveal.
Oops, yeah. I'm just gonna prepare for round 26, then.:smallredface:

TiaC
2016-12-19, 04:48 AM
I think it's bad form to discuss one's deck choice pre-reveal.

Go right ahead if you want to, I don't object. It can't give you an unfair advantage. You are welcome to try to bluff and it would be nice to see more discussion in this thread.

Now, it's late, but here's round 25 and it's a big one.

Fable Wright: Aetherflux Reservoir (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417765), Rakalite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=238128), Saprazzan Cove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19891)
Tom the Mime: Pact of the titan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130638), Chrome mox (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=420596), Storm world (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201165)
Gauntlet: Saprazzan Cove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19891), Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Esperzoa (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370498)
Jormengand: Bonfire of the Damned (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271095), Dwarven Hold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4179), Storm Crow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83282)
Bucky: Chaos Lord (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2614), Fungal Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247514), Caldera Lake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397490)
Djinn_in_Tonic: Mercadian Bazaar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19894), Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Torrent of Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43530)
ben-zayb: Panoptic Mirror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47930), Death Wish (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34402), Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892) (Sideboard:Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947),Trading Post (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253710), Forbidden Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3617))
b_jonas: Dwarven Hold (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/414.html), Flare (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/176.html), Reiterate (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/175.html)
tgva8889: Icatian Store (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4184), Near-Death Experience (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416752), Standing Stones (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1722)
C'nor: Aladdin's Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3758), Land Cap (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2756), Fungal Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247514)
Fortuna: Hollow Trees (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4183), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Epic Struggle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=33697)



Fable Wright: Aetherflux Reservoir (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417765), Rakalite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=238128), Saprazzan Cove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19891)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (0)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (6)
Vs. Bucky: WW (6)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (12)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (12)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (18)
Vs. C'nor: LL (24)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (30)

Tom the Mime: Pact of the titan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130638), Chrome mox (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=420596), Storm world (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201165)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (12)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (18)
Vs. Bucky: DD (20)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: LL (26)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (28)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (34)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (36)
Vs. C'nor: LL (42)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (48)

Gauntlet: Saprazzan Cove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19891), Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Esperzoa (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370498)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (12)
Vs. Bucky: WW (12)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: LL (18)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (24)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (30)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (36)
Vs. C'nor: LL (42)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (48)

Jormengand: Bonfire of the Damned (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271095), Dwarven Hold (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4179), Storm Crow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83282)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (0)
Vs. Bucky: WW (0)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (0)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (0)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (0)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (0)
Vs. C'nor: WW (0)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (0)

Bucky: Chaos Lord (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2614), Fungal Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247514), Caldera Lake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397490)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (8)
Vs. Gauntlet: LL (14)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (20)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: LL (26)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (32)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (38)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (44)
Vs. C'nor: DD (46)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (52)

Djinn_in_Tonic: Mercadian Bazaar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19894), Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947), Torrent of Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43530)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (6)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (12)
Vs. Bucky: WW (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (12)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (18)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (24)
Vs. C'nor: LL (30)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (36)

ben-zayb: Panoptic Mirror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47930), Death Wish (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34402), Subterranean Hangar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19892) (Sideboard:Gleemax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73947),Trading Post (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253710), Forbidden Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3617))
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (2)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (2)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (8)
Vs. Bucky: WW (14)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: LL (20)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (20)
Vs. tgva8889: DD (22)
Vs. C'nor: WW (22)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (28)

b_jonas: Dwarven Hold (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/414.html), Flare (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/176.html), Reiterate (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/175.html)
Vs. Fable Wright: LL (6)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (6)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (6)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (12)
Vs. Bucky: WW (12)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (12)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (18)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (18)
Vs. C'nor: LL (24)
Vs. Fortuna: LL (30)

tgva8889: Icatian Store (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4184), Near-Death Experience (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416752), Standing Stones (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1722)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: DD (2)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (2)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (8)
Vs. Bucky: WW (8)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (8)
Vs. ben-zayb: DD (10)
Vs. b_jonas: LL (16)
Vs. C'nor: LL (22)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (22)

C'nor: Aladdin's Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3758), Land Cap (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2756), Fungal Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247514)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (0)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (6)
Vs. Bucky: DD (8)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (8)
Vs. ben-zayb: LL (14)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (14)
Vs. tgva8889: WW (14)
Vs. Fortuna: WW (14)

Fortuna: Hollow Trees (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4183), Springjack Pasture (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376518), Epic Struggle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=33697)
Vs. Fable Wright: WW (0)
Vs. Tom the Mime: WW (0)
Vs. Gauntlet: WW (0)
Vs. Jormengand: LL (6)
Vs. Bucky: WW (6)
Vs. Djinn_in_Tonic: WW (6)
Vs. ben-zayb: WW (6)
Vs. b_jonas: WW (6)
Vs. tgva8889: LL (12)
Vs. C'nor: LL (18)

Well, sorry that took so long, I've been really busy and there were a lot of matches to score. I'm sure there are some mistakes. There were some awesome decks this round. Tom the Mime found a loophole to make a deck that can win against the goldfish, but cannot kill another player. Bucky's deck can be disrupted by playing a single permanent.

b_jonas
2016-12-19, 07:03 AM
Now, it's late, but here's round 25 and it's a big one. Eleven decks? Wow! Also, they seem quite complicated. It will take some time till I understand these, and I might need some explanations.

It seems there are two sorts of decks submitted: simple decks that just win slowly, and complicated decks that win against vanilla but get disrupted by most other decks. My own deck is a simple one of the first kind. I thought the winning decks will be ones of the second sort. Indeed Tom's and Bucky's builds have proved this correct, but I really couldn't figure out such a deck. I was wondering if something with Norin (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/171.html) could work, but just Norin plus a Timberland Ruins is probably not enough, because against many decks it can just hold the Norin to cast it after the opponent casts all their spells and make the game a draw that way. I don't feel too bad though, because most other players also played simple slow decks.

Of the simple decks, (two) three really succeed at being slow. Gauntlet's deck requires casting Gleemax (http://magiccards.info/uhaa/en/121.html) five times from a storage land, so it takes about five million turns. (Update:) Djinn_in_Tonic's deck takes about a million turns to win, because it has to cast Gleemax once. That deck has quite a style: it doesn't bother with dealing out small units of damage. (End update.) That's very impressive. I'm not sure how ben-zayb's deck works, but it also involves Gleemax in some way.

My deck takes only 120 turns. I thought of a few combinations that would be slightly slower, but I opted for this one because I assumed it would be more consistent against some other decks people might submit. I didn't think three card combinations that took a million turns would be possible.

Fable Wright has found a slow deck that is better than mine. I knew I had to look through all buyback cards, because they're among the most egregiously overcosted cards in terms of mana. But Fable Wright has found the old card Rakalite (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/27.html), which goes back to the owner's hand so you have to pay for it again and again, but isn't a buyback spell, in fact it's a permanent.

Jormengard played a slow deck of two cards: Bonfire of the Damned (http://magiccards.info/avr/en/129.html) plus a storage land. His deck wins in 43 turns, which wasn't slow enough for this meta. Other possible two-card decks with a storage land include a plain 1/1 creature like Wayfaring Giant which wins in 28 turns, Goblin Cannon wins in 47 turns, Evincar's Justice wins in 69 turns, Magma Mine in 83 turns, Searing Touch in 98 turns, and I don't know any that's slower than Searing Touch. Note though that Searing Touch could be a worse deck than Jormengard's Bonfire of the Damned, for it can win by killing creatures like Esperzoa, whereas decks like Jormengard's Bonfire can only draw the game by trading for a creature.

Fortuna played a three card combination that wins in 83 turns.

C'nor plays a clever three card combination that kills the opponent slowly using a damage card and two other cards to get the required mana. I was looking at strange mana producers, because they can be combined with lots of other cards here, but Ice Age depletion lands Land Cap (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/338.html) really didn't occur to me.

Now let's see the non-simple decks, the ones that don't just lose by being slow to win.

Tom's deck is built around Storm World (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/162.html), which is a sort of symmetric Black Vise. Tom playing against that deck can hold all three cards, in which case if the opponent casts Storm World, it will kill the opponent faster. But against the goldfish deck, which doesn't have three forests in his hand because your rules say so, Storm World will be equally fast for both players, and damages the goldfish first.

Bucky played Chaos Lord (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/178.html), which donates itself to the opponent when played against almost any decks, but wins against the goldfish. Very clever, congratulations.

Update: I haven't mentioned tgva8889's deck. This is also a non-simple one. Normally it wins in something like forty turns (I'm not sure exactly how much), but when it plays against a deck like mine, then it loses because the other deck just has to deal one damage to it at just the right time.

ben-zayb
2016-12-19, 08:15 AM
Against a goldfish, my 7M turns isn't even the best. Granted, it's better than a March of the Machine'd Gleemax (1M turns) or even a sideboarded Harmless Offering / Detonate / Gleemax (2M turns), but a sideboard with Underhanded Design / Prototype Portal / Gleemax takes 20M turns and one with Aetherflux Reservoir / Possibility Storm / Gleemax takes somewhere between 38M-48M turns.

b_jonas would be correct on the 2 approaches in my case, although my choice was also based on which Gleemax deck I think disrupts the enemy the least, which means Possibility Storm's 38M-turner is out. I expected the other kind of deck type like Desecration Elemental or Chaos Lord, but hoped they won't appear much. Alas, they did!

In addition to Panoptic Mirror + Death Wish, another fairly easy and mana-neutral way to delay many decks would be Ring of Ma'ruf + Prototype Portal. It actually takes way longer, but without the life loss.

My other ideas revolve around using either storage land + Springjack Pasture or depletion-land + coldsnap-dual-storage land for colored-mana heavy win-cons (e.g. Helix Pinnacle, BFM, Consume Spirit, Pyromatics, Yavimaya Ants, etc.), or Dark Depths for just the latter. Those would take somewhere between 60-500 turns. Forbidden Orchard / Hollow Trees / Splintering Wind is another unusual way to stall, 200+ turns at least but exponentially rises depending on disruption.

EDIT: b_jonas The deck uses an imprinted Forbidden Ritual + Gleemax. Cast Gleemax, feed it to the Ritual, then fetch it back with Trading Post. Wash, rinse, repeat, for up to 10M turns (I thought it was 7M only, but the opponent can just DD you if they choose to disrupt with sac or discard, once you start saccing non-Gleemax artifacts and destroy your sustainable loop)

Gauntlet
2016-12-19, 08:35 AM
I'm pretty sure ben-zayb's deck wins more games.

After 9 turns, make the Mirror and Wish for Gleemax + Trading Post (5 life left). Don't wish for Forbidden Ritual yet.
After 15 turns: make Trading Post

2 more turns: Discard Gleemax for 4 life
2 more turns: Pay 1 life for a goat
2 more turns: Sacrifice a goat to return Gleemax to hand

That lets him gain 3 life per 6 turns which puts him out of reach of most of the clocks the players present.
Once he's on an arbitrarily high amount of life, he can Wish for Forbidden Ritual, then put it on the Mirror and switch to casting Ritual to kill sacrificing Gleemax with a ~10 million turn clock. He's got inevitability though because of access to lifegain, so my deck can't kill him. You just go to a few trillion life, then take the 4 damage every million turns until you get the kill.

b_jonas
2016-12-19, 09:05 AM
My other ideas revolve around using either storage land + Springjack Pasture or depletion-land + coldsnap-dual-storage land for colored-mana heavy win-cons (e.g. Helix Pinnacle, BFM, Consume Spirit, Pyromatics, Yavimaya Ants, etc.), Helix Pinnacle is not color-intensive at all, so the Springjack Pasture doesn't do anything. The bigger problem with Springjack Pasture plus storage land though is that even if you can't win quickly, you can gain one life for every four turns, or put one blocker otb every four turns. My deck charges to shoot one damage every six turns, so your deck can gain a zillion life buffer first, then spend the next zillion turns to pay for whatever expensive card you have. Similarly, Springjack Pasture can win by building a life buffer against Fable's deck or Gauntlet's deck, and at least draws the game against C'nor's deck (maybe it even wins, I'm not sure).

I was also considering a filter to get colored mana slowly, but I couldn't get a good enough deck. The XXX lens (http://magiccards.info/bng/en/157.html) can slow down mana from a storage land to one third the rate, but only for costs that must be payed in the same turn, so it would let you go off with Soul Burn in 67 turns. Diamond Kaleidoscope (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/143.html) from visions slows down mana more, but it produces blockers, which I thought would be a drawback, though in retrospect it doesn't seem like it matters much.

ben-zayb
2016-12-19, 09:11 AM
^ hmm, could've sworn it used G only. Guess I'm thinking about Drain Life cost-style where it doesn't exist.

Edit: then again, my prediction was people would go for wincon decks that are way slowed down, instead of brute forcing damage, so I guess I should've also seen this coming

Hmm, Gauntlet's right, which means c'nor, Gauntlet, and b_Jonas gets LL over mine. I got tunneled vision there.

Gauntlet
2016-12-19, 10:17 AM
I'm honestly surprised Bucky did so well. The Chaos Lord deck is one I considered, but I dropped it because it wins (or rather, draws) against anyone who needs exactly two permanents to win, like white land + Little Girl + whatever.

b_jonas
2016-12-19, 03:08 PM
I'm honestly surprised Bucky did so well. The Chaos Lord deck is one I considered, but I dropped it because it wins (or rather, draws) against anyone who needs exactly two permanents to win, like white land + Little Girl + whatever. I don't think so. It is clear that the other player can get at least a draw by playing the land but holding the other cards, thus forcing a stalemate. But in the particular case of Little Girl, the player can even win by playing the Little Girl. If the Chaos Lord player plays the Lord, then that player will attack with the Lord first, the Little Girl player will block with the Girl, the Girl dies, the Lord doesn't deal any damage, then the Lord donates itself to the Little Girl player, who gets to deal damage with it.

Tom the Mime
2016-12-19, 03:13 PM
I'm surprised we didn't see any flailing soldier or forbidden orchard. Congrats Bucky

TiaC
2016-12-19, 03:30 PM
I don't think so. It is clear that the other player can get at least a draw by playing the land but holding the other cards, thus forcing a stalemate. But in the particular case of Little Girl, the player can even win by playing the Little Girl. If the Chaos Lord player plays the Lord, then that player will attack with the Lord first, the Little Girl player will block with the Girl, the Girl dies, the Lord doesn't deal any damage, then the Lord donates itself to the Little Girl player, who gets to deal damage with it.

Since the Chaos Lord's ability triggers during its controller's upkeep, if there are an even number of permanents, no one gets to attack with it.

b_jonas
2016-12-19, 03:42 PM
Since the Chaos Lord's ability triggers during its controller's upkeep, if there are an even number of permanents, no one gets to attack with it. I don't think so. Chaos Lord has a third ability that allows it to attack after it's changed control. If the number of permanents is even, it gets to attack every turn after the turn it enters the battlefield.


The deck uses an imprinted Forbidden Ritual + Gleemax. Cast Gleemax, feed it to the Ritual, then fetch it back with Trading Post. Wash, rinse, repeat, for up to 10M turns (I thought it was 7M only, but the opponent can just DD you if they choose to disrupt with sac or discard, once you start saccing non-Gleemax artifacts and destroy your sustainable loop) Ok, but what's the point of Trading Post? If all you need it for is to get the Gleemax back, couldn't you just use an ordinary sorcery like Remember the Fallen (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/21.html) or Nature's Spiral (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/196.html)? You can reuse the sorcery only by imprinting it to the Mirror, so there's no way to abuse it to return the Mirror itself, unless you only want to deal 6 damage (once with Gleemax and twice with the Mirror).

Tom the Mime
2016-12-19, 03:59 PM
I don't think so. Chaos Lord has a third ability that allows it to attack after it's changed control. If the number of permanents is even, it gets to attack every turn after the turn it enters the battlefield.
But you can only attack during your turn which is when you don't have control of it.

b_jonas
2016-12-19, 04:03 PM
But you can only attack during your turn which is when you don't have control of it. Oh, that's how Chaos Lord works? I totally didn't realize that, thanks. Now I've no idea how the Chaos Lord deck even behaves against anything.

Update: by the way, ben-zayb, I just realized Helix Pinnacle is on the ban list.

Gauntlet
2016-12-19, 04:10 PM
Oh, that's how Chaos Lord works? I totally didn't realize that, thanks. Now I've no idea how the Chaos Lord deck even behaves against anything.

Against a goldfish, you have 3 permanents, so you never lose control and get the kill.

Against anyone with a single permanent, there are now 4 permanents, so each player loses control in their upkeep and Chaos Lord never attacks.

Against an opponent with exactly two permanents, the Chaos Lord gets to attack when the fifth permanent is played, so the CL deck wins unless CL doesn't beat the opponent's permanent, or the opponent can make their thing at instant speed.

Against an opponent with 3 permanents nobody does anything again.

Tom the Mime
2016-12-19, 05:31 PM
Had a big focus on cards in hand as it was the big point of difference in making it easily disruptable. Had this one submitted before TiaC clarified that the goldfish had an empty hand, not a hand of blanks: Lotus bloom, hypergenesis, Multani, Maro-Sorceror


Against a goldfish, you have 3 permanents, so you never lose control and get the kill.

Against anyone with a single permanent, there are now 4 permanents, so each player loses control in their upkeep and Chaos Lord never attacks.

Against an opponent with exactly two permanents, the Chaos Lord gets to attack when the fifth permanent is played, so the CL deck wins unless CL doesn't beat the opponent's permanent, or the opponent can make their thing at instant speed.

Against an opponent with 3 permanents nobody does anything again.

Except against a deck with 2 permanents, only the first permanent is ever played, salvaging a draw for the deck. Which I think is what happened with me. And C'Nor I think - both lands are required to build up the mana for the ring but having both lands out means CL can outrace before the ring can be played.

Bucky
2016-12-19, 05:50 PM
My meta for this round boiled down to 3 groups:
Slowdecks try to not be able to do anything until after their opponent do. Trying to be disruptive is secondary.
Fragile decks try to be easily disrupted.
Self-Racers attempt to help their opponent win, but not quite enough to lose to a goldfish. (This can be self-damage or something else such as Hypergenesis)

In general, Self-Racers 'beat' Fragile decks, which 'beat' Slowdecks, which 'beat' Self-Racers.

I chose Chaos Lord because it was a Fragile deck with an alternate Self-Racer mode (when the opponent can lose or play a permanent while they control it)

Tom went with the reverse, a Self-Racer with Fragile tendencies. The other notable self-racer was tgva8889. Everyone else went slowdeck.


For the record, my slowdeck of choice would have been Naked Sinularity/Broodstar/(storage), clocking in at somewhere between 500 and 1000 turns - faster than the Gleemax decks but slower than the non-Gleemax decks.

I didn't have Tom's deck on my radar; my backup would probably have been a Jinxed Choker brew.

- - - Updated - - -

I think ben-zayb draws with tgva8889 by blowing up everything with Forbidden Ritual when he drops below 4 life.

ben-zayb
2016-12-19, 07:50 PM
Ok, but what's the point of Trading Post? If all you need it for is to get the Gleemax back, couldn't you just use an ordinary sorcery like Remember the Fallen (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/21.html) or Nature's Spiral (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/196.html)? You can reuse the sorcery only by imprinting it to the Mirror, so there's no way to abuse it to return the Mirror itself, unless you only want to deal 6 damage (once with Gleemax and twice with the Mirror).

You're right. I even actually searched for instant/sorcs for shuffling or fetching from my graveyard, with those popping up, but for some reason I ended up not using them.

EDIT: Ah, I remember thinking they can be used to retrieve my storage land, but I could've sworn in addition to the Fallen there is a command that just fetches artifact from the grave that I also saw.

Bucky
2016-12-20, 12:13 AM
Who chooses targets if both players have Gleemax on the field? You seem to have scored as though the most recently played Gleemax wins.

If instead it targets both players' choices, the Esperzoa deck draws with the Torrent of Fire deck.

Tom the Mime
2016-12-20, 12:55 AM
It's the most recently played. They're in the same layer for continuous effects (as they're the same card) so the effects are applied in timestamp order.

TiaC
2016-12-22, 03:41 PM
A little late, but here are results.

Gold: Bucky
Silver: Tom the Mime, Gauntlet
Bronze: Djinn_in_Tonic
One-damage loops: Fable Wright, b_jonas
Close, but no cigar: ben-zayb
Suicide is Painless: tgva8889
EPIIIC!: Fortuna
Tap and tap again: C'nor
Damned: Jormengand

Land: Ancient Tomb, Bayou, Bazaar of Baghdad, Caldera Lake, Cathedral of War, City of Traitors, Dryad Arbor, Ebon Stronghold, Ghost Quarter, Gruul Turf, Hickory Woodlot, Inkmoth Nexus, Keldon Megaliths, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, R&D's Secret Lair, Scrubland, Shelldock Isle, Strip Mine, Syvelunite Temple, Tundra, Undiscovered Paradise, Wasteland

Colorless: Arcbound Slith, Black Lotus, Blacker Lotus, Chronomaton, Emrakul the Aeons torn, Isochron Scepter, Karn Liberated, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memnite, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Steel Overseer, The Rack, Topor Orb

Black: Bitterblossom, Blackmail, Bloodghast, Chancellor of the Dross, Cruel Sadist, Dark Ritual, Entomber Exarch, Liliana the Last Hope, Mind Swords, Shrieking Affliction, Soul Spike, Vault Skirge

Blue: Daze, Ensoul Artifact, Flash, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Mental Misstep, Zephyr Spirit

Green: Channel, Elvish Farmer, Form of the Squirrel, Helix Pinnacle, Woodfall Primus, Young Wolf

Red: Burning Inquiry, Chancellor of the Forge, Chaos Lord

White: Balance, Cenn's Tactician, Chancellor of the Annex, Doomed Traveler

Gold: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Research//Development

Send in those decks for round 26!

tgva8889
2016-12-23, 04:14 AM
1) I can't possibly win against Bucky, because Bucky wins a race against me if I actually try to win; I can't ever go below 8 life or lose to the crack back from Chaos Lord, so I can't ever actually win and the game should be a draw with me at some amount of life that doesn't lose the race and Bucky never playing Chaos Lord. This shouldn't change the standings much as Bucky still has more points than everyone else with 2 draws instead of losses to me.

2) You forgot Fungal Reaches is banned.