Has anyone, in fact, played the old Ranger up to high levels?

[TheBirba]

Hi everyone,

So I'm starting a new RP-heavy campaign at level 3, I'm playing the old "sneaky sniper" cliché character and I settled for the Ranger class and Hunter archetype as per PHB (no UA allowed).

I read everywhere that the Ranger is pretty weak and both Fighters and Rogues (and even Bards) make better archers, but the selling point for me is the Ranger spells. Let's be honest, the whole Conjure Volley, Lightning Arrow and Swift Quiver are pretty badass concepts.

The problem is I feel that the Ranger is pretty unrewarding when gaining levels between the following breaking points:
- Lvl 5 for extra attack;
- Lvl 9 for Conjure Animals and Lightning Arrow
- lvl 11 for Volley
- Lvl 17 for Conjure Volley and Swift Quiver at level 17.

In the middle, a whole lot of fluff - and even though I'm going to RP a lot, that doesn't seem to be useful fluff either. Action Surge, Cunning Action and Priest/Druid spells all way more attractive in comparison.

So the question is simple, has anyone played a Ranger from low to high levels, and how did progression feel for them? And when did if feel the right time to multi class, if any?

[Specter]

I played Rgr9/Rog3/Fgt3, archer. I hated level 6, and didn't even want level 10 because it was totally lame, multiclassed away. I've made some minor improvements in the thread in my signature, if you want to check it out.

But regardless of the lame levels (6, 10, 14) you'll be good at it, especially the stealth. And no, Bards aren't as good as you.

[TheBirba]

I played Rgr9/Rog3/Fgt3, archer. I hated level 6, and didn't even want level 10 because it was totally lame, multiclassed away. I've made some minor improvements in the thread in my signature, if you want to check it out.

But regardless of the lame levels (6, 10, 14) you'll be good at it, especially the stealth. And no, Bards aren't as good as you.

Thanks for your input, however I doubt the DM will want to house rule anything that hasn't been play tested and I don't want to be that guy who asks. 😊 What made you stick to Rgr past level 5?

[EvilAnagram]

I've played a Ranger to level 12, and it held up very well the entire time. If you want the direct damage increases that they get:

Level 2: Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark/Hail of Thorns
Level 3: Colossus Slayer
Level 5: Extra Attack, 2nd level slots
Level 9: 3rd level slots, Lightning Arrow
Level 11: Volley
Level 13: 4th level slots
Level 17: 5th level slots, Conjure Volley, Swift Quiver
Level 18: Feral Senses
Level 20: Foe Slayer

Compare to a Champion Fighter

Level 1: Fighting Style
Level 2: Action Surge
Level 3: Improved Critical
Level 5: Extra Attack
Level 10: Extra Fighting Style
Level 11: Extra Attack
Level 15: Superior Critical
Level 17: Extra Action Surge
Level 20: Extra Attack

They have the same number of features that contribute directly to offensive capabilities. The levels in between include increased spell slots and defensive features, not to mention ASIs. They are perfectly comparable in their ability to kill things at range. On average, a Ranger will deal a bit more with Hunter's Mark than a Fighter will do without it until level 13, with Battle Masters edging in a bit closer than Champions, depending on your choices of Maneuver.

Bards are much, much worse at being archers. People who say that Valor Bards are better Rangers than Rangers have never played Valor Bards between levels 1-10, and they probably haven't played them much after 10, either. They're essentially saying that being able to shoot a bow reasonably well two times a day once you hit level 10 is better than being able to be very, very good at shooting a bow the entire time you play the game.

Once you start upcasting Hail of Thorns, it will be one of your favorite things in the game.

[Naanomi]

I played one (episodically) until 20, but it was a Beastmaster so it is hard to compare. The campaign wasn't even close to optimized so I didn't feel 'left behind'. I was a Water Gensai for what it matters, and used Magic Stone/Shillelagh to be 'wisdom based'. Keeping the pet advancing in HP had more incentive to 'stick with it' than a Hunter gets I think; and the capstone wasn't so disappointing when it was a +5 ability

[Specter]

Thanks for your input, however I doubt the DM will want to house rule anything that hasn't been play tested and I don't want to be that guy who asks. 😊 What made you stick to Rgr past level 5?

Multiattack Defense (which is so awesome and underrated), the ASI and Lightning Arrow (which is probably my favorite spell). But Hide in Plain Sight? No thanks.

[Malifice]

The core ranger functions perfectly fine to 5th level. Its a total wash after that, and you're better MCing into something else.

Ranger 5/ Fighter 3/ Rogue 5/ Druid 7 does everything the Ranger 20 can do (but better) for a start.

Its a better scout, warrior and caster than a core Ranger.

[Dimolyth]

Well, the RP fluff features of Ranger make him great Int-Wis skill specialist. Played him in the party with paladin, rogue and valor bard - his fluff worked GREAT. The choice of humanoids (be sure to include human) and of right environement made my Ranger to focus his proficiencies at intelligence & wisdom checks (had not proficiency even at stealth - because, you know, Pass Without Trace and natural Dexterity score).

(Yeah, with knowledge cleric, druid and wizard that wouldn`t work at all - but in that case ranger will be the only DEX skill monkey).

[Foxhound438]

I played Rgr9/Rog3/Fgt3, archer. I hated level 6, and didn't even want level 10 because it was totally lame, multiclassed away. I've made some minor improvements in the thread in my signature, if you want to check it out.

But regardless of the lame levels (6, 10, 14) you'll be good at it, especially the stealth. And no, Bards aren't as good as you.

bard is worse in the fact that they don't get archery style, but are better in that they get swift quiver far sooner (and have more slots to cast it with as levels progress), as well as having better tricks to back it up with.

[Foxhound438]

Level 2: Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark/Hail of Thorns
Level 3: Colossus Slayer
Level 5: Extra Attack, 2nd level slots
Level 9: 3rd level slots, Lightning Arrow
Level 11: Volley
Level 13: 4th level slots
Level 17: 5th level slots, Conjure Volley, Swift Quiver
Level 18: Feral Senses
Level 20: Foe Slayer


2nd and 4th level spells hardly bring anything offensive for rangers. Sure, spike growth can cheese out a few given encounters, but it's a trick a good DM will prevent becoming game breaking. Call it metagaming, but it's reasonable that after 5 feet of being shredded you would know to stop and pull out the ranged options.

Volley is kind of odd as a DPR boost, since having it spread across multiple targets makes it less effective in short term. If you're not killing something on your turn, you have effectively done nothing.... Well, not necessarily, since a good volley can cause a group to spread out or take cover, but in the cases where every enemy is basically a flesh-covered robot that will not react intelligently to your actions, volley is probably worse than just hitting something 3 times (thanks, crossbow expert)

Feral senses in my mind can hardly be considered a DPR boost, since it's kind of a corner case counter ability. Most of the time you should be able to see your enemy.



However, all that said, ranger 1-5 is pretty much the best it gets, short of those pesky warlock-sorcerers.

[EvilAnagram]

2nd and 4th level spells hardly bring anything offensive for rangers. Sure, spike growth can cheese out a few given encounters, but it's a trick a good DM will prevent becoming game breaking. Call it metagaming, but it's reasonable that after 5 feet of being shredded you would know to stop and pull out the ranged options.
Aside from Spike Growth cheese (and I would call any DM who purposefully designs all his encounters to keep players from benefitting from their spells a crap DM), you have upcasting spells, which is very nice. Upcasting Hail of Thorns is a lovely damage boost, and if your central target is a large creature it can cause some pretty massive damage.


Volley is kind of odd as a DPR boost, since having it spread across multiple targets makes it less effective in short term. If you're not killing something on your turn, you have effectively done nothing.... Well, not necessarily, since a good volley can cause a group to spread out or take cover, but in the cases where every enemy is basically a flesh-covered robot that will not react intelligently to your actions, volley is probably worse than just hitting something 3 times (thanks, crossbow expert)
It's an at-will area of effect that costs nothing more than the ammunition you use. People are in another thread playing with the idea of completely cheesing out Whirlwind Attack for the same purpose because dispersed damage is still useful, especially if your second turn ends with four deaths. And saying not killing something on your turn is the same as doing nothing is ridiculous.

"Well, the Bard Polymorphed the Giant into a puppy, the Cleric cast Bless on all of us, the Paladin dealt 80 damage to the Dragon, and the Warlock cast Darkness over us before the Dragon got its swings in."

"Man, what a wasted round"


Feral senses in my mind can hardly be considered a DPR boost, since it's kind of a corner case counter ability. Most of the time you should be able to see your enemy.
And when you can't, it's a major DPR boost.


bard is worse in the fact that they don't get archery style, but are better in that they get swift quiver far sooner (and have more slots to cast it with as levels progress), as well as having better tricks to back it up with.
Swift Quiver is a red herring. They don't get it until they've played mist of the campaign without being good at archery, while the Ranger gets it after spending the entire campaign being excellent at archery.

[EvilAnagram]

The core ranger functions perfectly fine to 5th level. Its a total wash after that, and you're better MCing into something else.

Ranger 5/ Fighter 3/ Rogue 5/ Druid 7 does everything the Ranger 20 can do (but better) for a start.

Its a better scout, warrior and caster than a core Ranger.

Maybe, but in the interim it's worse at being a Ranger. I mean, if I had only first level spells between levels 1 and 13, I would feel like the other Rangers were passing me by. And if I multiclasser earlier, I still wouldn't be getting any of the cool Ranger spells I like.

[Naanomi]

That 'damage boost' chart is a lot bleaker as a melee ranger; or a Beastmaster; or both...

2: fighting style, beast bond/hunters mark
5: extra attack
11: bestial fury
20: foe slayer (if you picked foes right)

Marginally mitigated by proficiency bonus adding to beast damage

[EvilAnagram]

That 'damage boost' chart is a lot bleaker as a melee ranger; or a Beastmaster; or both...

2: fighting style, beast bond/hunters mark
5: extra attack
11: bestial fury
20: foe slayer (if you picked foes right)

Marginally mitigated by proficiency bonus adding to beast damage
Melee rangers still get to use those spells since they all work thrown ammunition. An AoE is still useful when you tend to stick to melee, and Spike Growth is always useful.

[Naanomi]

Melee rangers still get to use those spells since they all work thrown ammunition. An AoE is still useful when you tend to stick to melee, and Spike Growth is always useful.
Yes, when they choose not to melee some spells help a melee ranger's damage. Generally at the cost of their item interaction (to stow their weapon), bonus action (no pet or offhand attacks), possible reaction (if you were using a shield, can't get that weapon back out for AoEs), and often without their fighting style applying

Spike growth is a great spell but I'm not sure I'd consider it a 'damage boost' as much as an 'alternative source of damage + battlefield control'; but I understand your choice to include it on your list

EDIT: also there is no weapon with both thrown and ammunition traits... So swift quiver and flame arrow are out, but the rest are ok; though extra attack often is wasted

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Compare to a Champion FighterYou forgot the Fighter's extra ASIs. Also, Champion is a bit of a low bar, no?

Also, as pointed out, Ranger archers turn out okay, since they're almost impossible to pin down (if not for being damage kings). TWF, on the other hand... well, let's just say the Ranger abilities definitely aren't enough to lift it up.

[EvilAnagram]

You forgot the Fighter's extra ASIs. Also, Champion is a bit of a low bar, no?

Also, as pointed out, Ranger archers turn out okay, since they're almost impossible to pin down (if not for being damage kings). TWF, on the other hand... well, let's just say the Ranger abilities definitely aren't enough to lift it up.
I just picked the simplest one, and I left out the ASIs because they give a false impression. Sure, you're likely to use 3 of them as damage boosts, while the rest go to defense or utility. It's more likely than not a single ASI over the ranger's going to offense.

And the OP is explicitly designing an Archer. Melee has no place here.

[MrFahrenheit]

I think the problem people have is that the original ranger was not meant to be a pure martial class. It was difficult to figure out a good characterization for it. This is opposed to the other half caster, the paladin.

Original ranger was weird - it's partially about martial (aided by spells), and partially about control. It's a far more even split than the paladin, and its subclasses personified that even more - you could go for far more battlefield control with the beastmaster, or far more damage with the hunter. But if played properly, managing that line, it's as effective as anything else.

[Specter]

Even if the old ranger deals less damage than a Fighter/Paladin after level 5 (which depends on the build), that is mitigated by the fact they're still explorers, infiltrators and utility guys. Less damage has to weighed against more versatility.

[EvilAnagram]

Even if the old ranger deals less damage than a Fighter/Paladin after level 5 (which depends on the build), that is mitigated by the fact they're still explorers, infiltrators and utility guys. Less damage has to weighed against more versatility.
Also, more control.

[Vogonjeltz]

Also, as pointed out, Ranger archers turn out okay, since they're almost impossible to pin down (if not for being damage kings). TWF, on the other hand... well, let's just say the Ranger abilities definitely aren't enough to lift it up.


And the OP is explicitly designing an Archer. Melee has no place here.

The only spells which support melee by a Ranger are Hunter's Mark and Ensnaring Strike. Both are better suited to being used with Ranged attacks however.

Rangers are basically archers whose backup attack is melee for when they get cornered. If you really want to dual-wield as a concept you're best off going with a Champion Fighter (no competition for bonus action, they get dual-wielding fighting style, plenty of ASI to pick up useful feats, etcetera).


The problem is I feel that the Ranger is pretty unrewarding when gaining levels between the following breaking points:
- Lvl 5 for extra attack;
- Lvl 9 for Conjure Animals and Lightning Arrow
- lvl 11 for Volley
- Lvl 17 for Conjure Volley and Swift Quiver at level 17.


Something to keep in mind is:
6th level nets you a second favored enemy and another favored terrain. The latter is a big deal. Most campaigns are played in one of a few terrain types, and it nets you expertise in virtually all your possible skills while there.

Ranger is probably the one class that gets a crazy good benefit from the Skilled (+3 skill proficiencies) feat, because it's effectively like giving them expertise for picking up additional wisdom/intelligence skills.

Don't underestimate the scouting capability of the Ranger at all levels (but especially early levels), they can have unparalleled powers of divination for preparing each day thanks to the combination of Primeval Awareness and Natural Explorer. They can figure out what kinds of enemies are present, then tell the party exactly how many, how big, and how recently they were around (not getting ambushed can be huge). Yes, it's an opportunity cost, but most of the Ranger spells are for utility anyway, Primeval Awareness is, in effect, just another 1st level spell unique to the Ranger.

Land's Stride...difficult terrain halves a creatures movement, so it's a huge penalty that's being avoided, especially for a character who relies on mobility to avoid being caught and targeted (i.e. an Archer). For example, a Ranger can endlessly kite enemies through difficult terrain, without ever being caught. So, a massive tactical advantage provided at 8th level.

Level 13: Freedom of Movement. A ranger can shoot arrows underwater at max range with no penalty, and move at full speed with no penalty. For a no-concentration buff, that's phenomenal. Grasping Vine is pretty good single-target lockdown, Conjure Woodland Beings can be great with a little bit of luck and/or DM collaboration). I'd avoid Stoneskin unless you have War Caster to maintain concentration more easily.

Level 14: Vanish...this is just crazy good and it has fantastic synergy with Fog Cloud. A Ranger can end each round by hiding, then start each round by getting advantage on their attacks out of the gate. If the enemy has poor perception, they can't even harm the Ranger absent aoe or by guessing the square using blind luck.

Level 18: Feral Senses - again, synergy with Fog cloud, the Ranger can throw down a spell causing an area to be heavily obscured to everything but blindsight, and suffer 0 penalties to their own attacks (in fact they would have advantage on attacks because they can't be seen). This is pretty much the ultimate in bonuses, you get advantage on all attacks and your enemy gets disdadvantage on all attacks (and because they can't see you, they can't even initiate some attacks)

So yeah, don't underestimate the Ranger, their abilities synergize for hit and run tactics, very similar to the Rogue, except they get much much better at it over time.

[Malifice]

Maybe, but in the interim it's worse at being a Ranger. I mean, if I had only first level spells between levels 1 and 13, I would feel like the other Rangers were passing me by. And if I multiclasser earlier, I still wouldn't be getting any of the cool Ranger spells I like.

You go Ranger straight to 5th. Its no different.

From there you decide whether to focus on casting (and utility), fighting or stealth/ mobility/ skills/ DPR.

It casting worries you, take the next 7 levels in Druid. You wind up with a CL of 9th (5th level slots) 4th level spells known by 12th level, and depending on your circle, spells like Haste or Lightning bolt (and conjure animals). Plus all the utility of Wild shape 2/ short rest.

Youre already a better caster than a 20th level Ranger.

After that 5 levels in Rogue adds Cunning action, sneak attack +3d6, expertise, a few more skills, and uncanny dodge. Your final 3 levels can be battlemaster fighter for action surge, another fighting style, second wind and 3 sup dice as your capstone.

[Saggo]

The only spells which support melee by a Ranger are Hunter's Mark and Ensnaring Strike. Both are better suited to being used with Ranged attacks however.
Conjure Barrage/Volley both work with thrown nonmagical weapons, giving you an effective ranged AoE option. Something most melee skirmishers, including Fighter, lack.

[Biggstick]

Bards are much, much worse at being archers. People who say that Valor Bards are better Rangers than Rangers have never played Valor Bards between levels 1-10, and they probably haven't played them much after 10, either. They're essentially saying that being able to shoot a bow reasonably well two times a day once you hit level 10 is better than being able to be very, very good at shooting a bow the entire time you play the game.

Most of the time a Valor Bard is going to pick up a level of Fighter either to start with or somewhere early on for that Archery Fighting style. So the Valor Bard is probably not getting it's Swift Quiver until level 11. However, there are some pretty solid spells that are useful for an archer that the Valor Bard gains before that level 11. These spells include: Healing Word, Heroism, Calm Emotions, Enhance ability, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Silence, Plant Growth, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Animate Objects, and Scrying. This doesn't include the pretty awesome set of Rituals you can nab either. You're also picking up Jack of All Trades and 4 Expertised skills along the way, becoming better at the Rangery skills you want to better at all the time rather then just in your favored terrain.

Gaining Sharpshooter and maxing Dexterity will probably take you 3 ASI (2 if you're Human Variant). You don't need to worry about having a high Charisma, as you're utilizing spells that don't use a spell DC.

You might not bring as much damage pre level 11 (Hunter's Mark + Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker is what pushes Ranger over the top), but you're bringing the Bard utility and support while still putting out respectable damage with your Sharpshooter + maxed Dex + two attacks. And once you're past level 11, the game only gets more interesting (an awesome spell on the Bard Spell List is Foresight. Being able to cast this on yourself + Swift Quiver in the late game makes you a monster of a dps cannon).

[EvilAnagram]

snip

Right... which makes it a Bard who's one level behind on his spell development that's okay as an archer.

That is not the same thing as a Ranger, and for most of the game he's going to be worse at archery than a Ranger. Even late game, he's probably going to be as good as the Ranger is two or three times a day, but not really any better.

[Citan]

The only spells which support melee by a Ranger are Hunter's Mark and Ensnaring Strike. Both are better suited to being used with Ranged attacks however.

Rangers are basically archers whose backup attack is melee for when they get cornered. If you really want to dual-wield as a concept you're best off going with a Champion Fighter (no competition for bonus action, they get dual-wielding fighting style, plenty of ASI to pick up useful feats, etcetera).

Fog Cloud is also great as long as you have Darkvision. But it's true, you get lesser useful spells for a melee Ranger.
I don't find that problematic though, since you don't have that many slots anyways. That's probably why they made Hunter's Mark also upgradable (although I would have prefered a boost such as Bestow Curse: non-concentration as lvl 5 spell).;)


That 'damage boost' chart is a lot bleaker as a melee ranger; or a Beastmaster; or both...

2: fighting style, beast bond/hunters mark
5: extra attack
11: bestial fury
20: foe slayer (if you picked foes right)

Marginally mitigated by proficiency bonus adding to beast damage
You forget Spell Sharing. While it's unfortunately not very useful in itself, because of the lack of buffs a pure Ranger gets (Longstrider, Jump, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin... Nice to use, but seem totally underwhelming to "twin" that as 15th level feature)...

Any Ranger ready to drop the remaining levels to dip into another class can make great things. Just dipping Land Druid can give access to Mirror Image, Blur or Haste.
You could also dip Cleric to get a twinned Divine Favor early, then later Spirit Guardians for extra terrain control.
Or, also it's MAD, dip a Sorcerer or a Wizard for even more shenanigans.
Or, if you are lucky enough to get rolled stats that can bear the extreme MADness and improbable combination XD, Paladin (because the smite spells actually target "self" and not a weapon, opening many interesting possibilities. But you can't make more niche than that ;)).

The really sad thing is that the feature comes so late... But I guess it could have opened too many powerful combinations if it had come earlier.

[Biggstick]

Right... which makes it a Bard who's one level behind on his spell development that's okay as an archer.

That is not the same thing as a Ranger, and for most of the game he's going to be worse at archery than a Ranger. Even late game, he's probably going to be as good as the Ranger is two or three times a day, but not really any better.

How though? You're not explaining how the Valor Bard is worse then the Ranger at Archery. You even go so far as to bring up late game, where a Valor Bard is going to be crushing a Ranger. Having access to 6 spells from any list (2 level 5 max, 2 level 7 max, and 2 level 9 max), and level 19 Spell caster spell slots is huge for a primary Archer. Having Foresight on top of all the other great concentration spells you could be running (Swift Quiver, Fly, etc etc)

Other then what I pointed out with Hunter's Mark and Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker, I'm really not seeing the difference between the two builds we've presented. Please elaborate further as to how the Ranger is going to be better then the Valor Bard at Archery.

[Specter]

You go Ranger straight to 5th. Its no different.

From there you decide whether to focus on casting (and utility), fighting or stealth/ mobility/ skills/ DPR.

It casting worries you, take the next 7 levels in Druid. You wind up with a CL of 9th (5th level slots) 4th level spells known by 12th level, and depending on your circle, spells like Haste or Lightning bolt (and conjure animals). Plus all the utility of Wild shape 2/ short rest.

Youre already a better caster than a 20th level Ranger.

After that 5 levels in Rogue adds Cunning action, sneak attack +3d6, expertise, a few more skills, and uncanny dodge. Your final 3 levels can be battlemaster fighter for action surge, another fighting style, second wind and 3 sup dice as your capstone.

That's all nice and all, but this build has 3 ASI's. Can you make do with that?

About the bard/fighter thing, you'll miss Volley, Multiattack Defense (which is awesome)/Escape the Horde (your get-out-of-melee-free card), Evasion, Hunter's Mark, and a ton of HP. If damage comes close, defense doesn't. If you're okay with that...

[Shining Wrath]

My ranger is almost level 8, is the primary damage dealer for the party. With archery style and high dexterity and a +1 bow she's +11 to hit - AC 18 fire giant, still hits 2/3 of her shots. Add in Hunter's Mark and Colossus Slayer and that's something like .67*2*(4.5+3.5) + 4.5 or a nice consistent ~14 points per round against a high armor class. Looking forward to Volley, which is pretty much an at-will first level spell (similar to Hail of Thorns) only better.

Having said that see if you can at least get your DM to let you have "talk to the animals" from UA. It's a ribbon, but a pretty one.

[EvilAnagram]

How though? You're not explaining how the Valor Bard is worse then the Ranger at Archery. You even go so far as to bring up late game, where a Valor Bard is going to be crushing a Ranger. Having access to 6 spells from any list (2 level 5 max, 2 level 7 max, and 2 level 9 max), and level 19 Spell caster spell slots is huge for a primary Archer. Having Foresight on top of all the other great concentration spells you could be running (Swift Quiver, Fly, etc etc)

Other then what I pointed out with Hunter's Mark and Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker, I'm really not seeing the difference between the two builds we've presented. Please elaborate further as to how the Ranger is going to be better then the Valor Bard at Archery.

Okay, let's look at it. I guess you want to assume a Fighter dip?


1 - Fighter is ahead on account of getting Archery first.
2 - Ranger is ahead of Fighter-Bard because of Hunter's Mark and Hail of Thorns.
3 - Ranger gets Colossus Slayer, FB gets nothing for archery.
4 - Ranger gets ASI, FB gets Valor Bard's bardic inspiration... which he can't give to himself.
5 - Ranger gets Extra Attack, FB gets ASI the Ranger got last level
6 - Ranger gets to upcast Hail of Thorns, FB is becoming quite the support caster who is also okay at archery.
7 - Ranger grabs a defensive boost that can actually help him escape melee opponents. FB continues to be a better Bard than archer.
8 - Ranger gets an ASI, Bard does not.
9 - Ranger gets Lightning Arrow, Bard gets that ASI
10 - Ranger gets an okay way to set up an ambush, the Bard gets even better at being a support healer.
11 - Ranger gets an at-will AoE that uses his ranged attack, the Bard finally gets a level's worth of decent bowmanship! Keep in mind that up until this point you've been a barely competent archer while the Ranger has been excelling, has several AoEs based on his basic attack and Wisdom, and can reliably get away from melee attackers. Now, however, you can deal more damage than the Ranger can in two combats a day! Unless the Ranger uses Volley. Or gets a well-placed Hail of Thorns or Lightning Arrow. And if he loses concentration once, he's not a crap archer for the rest of the fight.
12 - Ranger gets an ASI, and the Bard gets an Extra use of Swift Quiver. Bard is creeping back up.
13 - Bard gets that ASI, but the Ranger still has a ton of spells and abilities at his disposal that back up his archery.
14 - With a fourth use of Swift Quiver, we can finally hand the Bard his "as good as the Ranger" trophy.
15-16 - Bard is arguably better than the Ranger.
17 - Ranger gets Swift Quiver/Conjure Volley for when it's appropriate to use one of them. When he doesn't need them, he can rely on other tricks to keep his ranged damage and crowd control high.
18-20 - Bard realizes that he's been wasting resources trying to be an archer when he could have been a Bard the whole time. Ranger is still better at being Ranger.


The entire time, save level 1, the Ranger is tougher and more survivable, and he can actually be an exceptional archer for 20 levels instead of being a kind of okay archer for 10 levels, a good archer for three levels, and actually a very good archer who has better things to do than shoot a bow for seven.

[Biggstick]

About the bard/fighter thing, you'll miss Volley, Multiattack Defense (which is awesome)/Escape the Horde (your get-out-of-melee-free card), Evasion, Hunter's Mark, and a ton of HP. If damage comes close, defense doesn't. If you're okay with that...

Not to discount Volley or anything, but if you're having issues with hordes of enemies at level 11, it's probably because you don't have a caster with an aoe capability.

Multi attack defense is an ability that requires you to get hit! before it adds anything. And even then it's only 4 AC! If it can hit your AC before the +4, you probably don't have a high enough AC for the bonus to keep the additional attacks from hitting (also of note, the ability only applies to the extra attacks after you've been hit from that one monster for only the rest of the turn. That's a pretty niche defense that doesn't bring very much)

Escape the Horde is another option that again puts your AC against a free opportunity attack. Yes they may have disadvantage, but they're still probably going to hit you, even with disadvantafe. And again, this a defensI've ability that requires you to put yourself in harms way. The only one you didn't mention, steel will, is the one I'd probably take over either of the other options.

The "ton" of HP you're talking about is at most a 19 hp difference, and that's at level 20. It's an even smaller difference the lower level you are.

You got me with Evasion. That's a fantastic ability that Rangers should straight up just get, similar to Monks and Rogues, and not at level 15 either, but the same level as rogues and monks.

I personally still think the power of a 19th level spell caster plus Bard spell versatility (plus Fighter Archery) is a stronger all around setup then the Rangers.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't know what your DM throws at you, but my level 7 Ranger has AC 17 (studded leather + Dex). If a foe is rolling with disadvantage their typical roll will be a 5. A +12 to hit bonus isn't an everyday thing at level 7. A T-Rex (CR 8) is +10 to hit. A fire giant (CR 9) is +11. The earliest I could find for at least a +12 to hit was Cloud Giant at CR 13.

So "probably hit you" is not true for most foes at the level where a Ranger gets Escape the Horde, and depending on campaign a level 12 or 13 ranger may very well have magical AC enhancers.

[Biggstick]

I don't know what your DM throws at you, but my level 7 Ranger has AC 17 (studded leather + Dex). If a foe is rolling with disadvantage their typical roll will be a 5. A +12 to hit bonus isn't an everyday thing at level 7. A T-Rex (CR 8) is +10 to hit. A fire giant (CR 9) is +11. The earliest I could find for at least a +12 to hit was Cloud Giant at CR 13.

So "probably hit you" is not true for most foes at the level where a Ranger gets Escape the Horde, and depending on campaign a level 12 or 13 ranger may very well have magical AC enhancers.

Maybe it's not true for your campaigns, but it's true in many of the one's I've participated in. A PC would be considered pretty lucky to not get hit by the opportunity attack.

As for value, I can definitely see this ability being valuable at the level you gain it (7). This is one of those abilities though that definitely gets over shadowed the higher level you get, as not every monster you're going to face is going to be the same as what's in the MM (DM's change monster stats all the time, including their + to hit bonus). It eventually gets to a state where it's pretty fool hardy to count on that disadvantaged opportunity attack in the later stages of the game, as whatever is swinging at you probably has a nasty rider effect on their attacks. It'd be better to utilize the disengage action to put some distance between yourself and whatever is in front of you.

Any class's viability in a campaign can greatly change if we start including magic items into the mix. We can go down that road but it starts getting a lot messier if we do.

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe it's not true for your campaigns, but it's true in many of the one's I've participated in. A PC would be considered pretty lucky to not get hit by the opportunity attack.

As for value, I can definitely see this ability being valuable at the level you gain it (7). This is one of those abilities though that definitely gets over shadowed the higher level you get, as not every monster you're going to face is going to be the same as what's in the MM (DM's change monster stats all the time, including their + to hit bonus). It eventually gets to a state where it's pretty fool hardy to count on that disadvantaged opportunity attack in the later stages of the game, as whatever is swinging at you probably has a nasty rider effect on their attacks. It'd be better to utilize the disengage action to put some distance between yourself and whatever is in front of you.

Any class's viability in a campaign can greatly change if we start including magic items into the mix. We can go down that road but it starts getting a lot messier if we do.

But disengage doesn't grant an additional move. It's of no use unless you a faster than the creature you wish to escape.

The situation for a ranger is likely to be this:

Something large, ugly, and fanged moves next to you and tries to eat you.
Does it have multiple attacks that might likely hit your AC?
Yes: You're lucky if you have Multiattack Defense
No: You're lucky it doesn't
It's as fast as you are and also has 10 foot reach
Can you get somewhere safe with a single move?
Yes: Disengage
No: You're lucky to have Escape the Horde

Or

Two or more creatures with pointy metal things move next to you and try to let your insides, out.
They are as fast as you are
Can you get somewhere safe with a single move?
Yes: Disengage
No: You're lucky to have Escape the Horde

[Biggstick]

Okay, let's look at it. I guess you want to assume a Fighter dip?


1 - Fighter is ahead on account of getting Archery first.
2 - Ranger is ahead of Fighter-Bard because of Hunter's Mark and Hail of Thorns.
3 - Ranger gets Colossus Slayer, FB gets nothing for archery.
4 - Ranger gets ASI, FB gets Valor Bard's bardic inspiration... which he can't give to himself.
5 - Ranger gets Extra Attack, FB gets ASI the Ranger got last level
6 - Ranger gets to upcast Hail of Thorns, FB is becoming quite the support caster who is also okay at archery.
7 - Ranger grabs a defensive boost that can actually help him escape melee opponents. FB continues to be a better Bard than archer.
8 - Ranger gets an ASI, Bard does not.
9 - Ranger gets Lightning Arrow, Bard gets that ASI
10 - Ranger gets an okay way to set up an ambush, the Bard gets even better at being a support healer.
11 - Ranger gets an at-will AoE that uses his ranged attack, the Bard finally gets a level's worth of decent bowmanship! Keep in mind that up until this point you've been a barely competent archer while the Ranger has been excelling, has several AoEs based on his basic attack and Wisdom, and can reliably get away from melee attackers. Now, however, you can deal more damage than the Ranger can in two combats a day! Unless the Ranger uses Volley. Or gets a well-placed Hail of Thorns or Lightning Arrow. And if he loses concentration once, he's not a crap archer for the rest of the fight.
12 - Ranger gets an ASI, and the Bard gets an Extra use of Swift Quiver. Bard is creeping back up.
13 - Bard gets that ASI, but the Ranger still has a ton of spells and abilities at his disposal that back up his archery.
14 - With a fourth use of Swift Quiver, we can finally hand the Bard his "as good as the Ranger" trophy.
15-16 - Bard is arguably better than the Ranger.
17 - Ranger gets Swift Quiver/Conjure Volley for when it's appropriate to use one of them. When he doesn't need them, he can rely on other tricks to keep his ranged damage and crowd control high.
18-20 - Bard realizes that he's been wasting resources trying to be an archer when he could have been a Bard the whole time. Ranger is still better at being Ranger.


The entire time, save level 1, the Ranger is tougher and more survivable, and he can actually be an exceptional archer for 20 levels instead of being a kind of okay archer for 10 levels, a good archer for three levels, and actually a very good archer who has better things to do than shoot a bow for seven.

You seemed to have left out a good portion of what Bard brings to the table, spell choice.

1. Archery style, as you said. Sharpshooter from Human Variant level 1.
2. Never has to worry about Fear effects again (Heroism)
3 Jack of All Trades (Initiative bonus)
4 Invisibility (Can reposition in any fight to a more tactical position), Heat Metal (force an armor wearing enemy to have disadvantage on attack rolls and ALL ABILITY CHECKS WITH NO SAVE)
5 ASI
6 Leomund's Tiny Hut (If you can sneak into a place and get a casting of this spell off, you have an impenetrable dome that you can shoot arrows up to 600' away from. While a bit of a challenge to pull off, it is extremely effective), Plant Growth (a 200' diameter area of double difficult terrain that you can control the make up of allows you to control where the enemy goes).
7 Second Attack
8 Greater Invisibility (remember Invisibility? This is even better since you can now make your attacks at advantage and still not break the Invisibility. Every casting of this spell allows you to reliably shoot your Sharpshooter shots with advantage), Freedom of Movement (You can run or escape any situation in which you're restrained), Dimension Door (a monster of a repositioning spell).
9 ASI. Maxed out Dexterity only one level behind the Ranger. At this point the Ranger has just picked up Lightning Arrow and has two castings of it, compared to the FB's two castings of level 4 spells.
10 Scrying (choosing combat on your terms depending on how well you scout out the competition), Teleportation Circle (ease of travel), Animate Objects (a dps option). I'll admit the level 5 spells for Bard are a bit lacking in combat strength, but they bring you the ability on choosing when and where to fight, depending on how thorough you are in your Scryings.
11 Swift Quiver (no explanation needed). You're also gaining access to any other 5th level or lower spell that you want. Spells to consider include Fly and Haste. Both of which are concentration, but open up combat options for you. Being able to Fly around anywhere from 400-600 feet up in the air away from the target is something a normal Ranger doesn't have the opportunity to really do. And if you're worried about losing concentration, Feather Fall is a spell on the Bard spell list at Bard level 1.
12 Nothing super appealing here other then True Seeing, and even that's a stretch. It does give you another higher level spell slot for your Swift Quiver (and other spells). Ranger will be picking up an ASI here, but it isn't a damage boost unless they're going Crossbows. This hasn't been brought up quite yet, so I'll leave it here.
13 FB ASI. You mention that Ranger has a ton of spells here that buff up it's Archery. I contend that so does the FB in Fly, Greater Invisibility, and Swift Quiver, as well as more castings of these spells then the Ranger.
14 Seventh level spells for the Bard. All are potentially useful, but none really stand out to me combat wise. Oh wait, I forgot, Bard's have FORCECAGE on their spell list. This is an incredibly potent spell that doesn't allow for a save unless you're trying to trap a creature with teleportation capabilities. Don't forget, this spell can't be dispelled.
15 If Forcecage wasn't enough, you now get to pick two seventh level spells from any spell list. Go wild with that. All those Ranger spells that have been getting talked about can be picked up here (Lightning Arrow potentially), or anything else that really speaks to you as a player. Valor Bards are also getting their fantastic Battle Magic capability at this level. Being able to cast a spell as an action and attack as a bonus action really allows for some versatility when it comes to the opening rounds of combat. Rangers get their well deserved Evasion here. This is a great level for Rangers as well.
16 Ranger ASI. Again, you're not picking up a damage increase so it's a moot point. 8th level Bard spells come into play here, though they're nothing to write home about.
17 FB ASI.
18 Ninth level spells. Well hello there Foresight. I'm glad to have a concentration free buff that grants me advantage on all saving throws and attack rolls for 8 hours!
19 As if Foresight wasn't enough, I now get to steal two level 9 or lower spells from any other spell list?! This is great!
20 FB ASI.

Ranger might have a small damage bonus in the early part of the game by having access to Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark, but Hunter's Mark definitely becomes overshadowed once the Ranger is using it's concentration on other spells (this includes Lightning Arrow and Swift Quiver). The FB's strength is it's ability to choose when and where it's going to fight, and it's ability to adapt and overcome any situation presented to it. Rangers are damage turrets that have to be set up in the right place and protected properly to put out their massive damage potential.

[EvilAnagram]

If your argument that he is a better Ranger depends on using Leomund's Tiny Hut and Scrying, you stopped caring about what makes a Ranger a Ranger.

[Specter]

Yeah, saying that Escape the Horde/Multiattack Defense are limited and then bringing up Leomund's Tiny Hut... bro. Like, bro.

[Biggstick]

If your argument that he is a better Ranger depends on using Leomund's Tiny Hut and Scrying, you stopped caring about what makes a Ranger a Ranger.

I guess knowing where your enemy is and what they're doing isn't something a Ranger would want to know right? They're about tracking, hunting down, and killing a target right? Scrying is a pretty useful tool for a Ranger.

As for Leomund's Tiny Hut, yeah, that's a reach, but once you reach level 11, you're using those third level slots for Fly. The argument being made isn't for Leomund's Tiny Hut, just options and versatility.

If your entire rebuttal stands on refuting the 6th level power of the either build, then I guess you got me.

[MeeposFire]

Not to discount Volley or anything, but if you're having issues with hordes of enemies at level 11, it's probably because you don't have a caster with an aoe capability.

Multi attack defense is an ability that requires you to get hit! before it adds anything. And even then it's only 4 AC! If it can hit your AC before the +4, you probably don't have a high enough AC for the bonus to keep the additional attacks from hitting (also of note, the ability only applies to the extra attacks after you've been hit from that one monster for only the rest of the turn. That's a pretty niche defense that doesn't bring very much)

Escape the Horde is another option that again puts your AC against a free opportunity attack. Yes they may have disadvantage, but they're still probably going to hit you, even with disadvantafe. And again, this a defensI've ability that requires you to put yourself in harms way. The only one you didn't mention, steel will, is the one I'd probably take over either of the other options.

The "ton" of HP you're talking about is at most a 19 hp difference, and that's at level 20. It's an even smaller difference the lower level you are.

You got me with Evasion. That's a fantastic ability that Rangers should straight up just get, similar to Monks and Rogues, and not at level 15 either, but the same level as rogues and monks.

I personally still think the power of a 19th level spell caster plus Bard spell versatility (plus Fighter Archery) is a stronger all around setup then the Rangers.

I 100% agree that rangers should get evasion by default and at a lower level...

[TheBirba]

I really really wish I didn't write that Bards can be better archers. 😄

As far as my character is concerned, I am definitely going Ranger 5, then take a decision. Right now I don't even know what the other party members will be (except for a monk), but I know there is 4 of us and combat will be less frequent than the usual campaign.

Right now I believe it's either going to be:
- Ranger all the way;
- MC into Rogue (why wait for Vanish at 14 when you can get Cunning Action at 7)
- MC into Druid (why wait for Swift Quiver at 17 when you can get Haste at 10).

To me the issue with Rangers is the get the cool stuff too late compared the other classes.

[Biggstick]

I really really wish I didn't write that Bards can be better archers. 😄

As far as my character is concerned, I am definitely going Ranger 5, then take a decision. Right now I don't even know what the other party members will be (except for a monk), but I know there is 4 of us and combat will be less frequent than the usual campaign.

Right now I believe it's either going to be:
- Ranger all the way;
- MC into Rogue (why wait for Vanish at 14 when you can get Cunning Action at 7)
- MC into Druid (why wait for Swift Quiver at 17 when you can get Haste at 10).

To me the issue with Rangers is the get the cool stuff too late compared the other classes.

One to Three levels into Rogue definitely does work on a Ranger. It just kind of depends on the type of game you're playing as to when you'd take the Rogue levels imo (as you've already indicated, the Rogue levels should be taken some time after Ranger 5).

[Toofey]

Ummm... Is it just me or did the UA take away the ranger base class' 2nd attack at 5th level.

[Specter]

Ummm... Is it just me or did the UA take away the ranger base class' 2nd attack at 5th level.

Yes, but only Beastmasters don't get it.

[Malifice]

[QUOTE=Specter;21206156]That's all nice and all, but this build has 3 ASI's. Can you make do with that?

As a Vuman thats enough for Dex 20, Sharpshooter feat and a spare feat/ ASI.

Wisdom of 14 is more than enough to get by, and Int and Cha remain dump stats. Thanks to finesse weapons you can dump Str also.


About the bard/fighter thing, you'll miss Volley, Multiattack Defense (which is awesome)

You get Uncanny dodge instead from Rogue.


Escape the Horde (your get-out-of-melee-free card),

Cunning action [dash/ disengage] from Rogue.


Evasion

Dex saves are overated.


Hunter's Mark

You get that at Ranger 2.


and a ton of HP.

Druid and Rogue get d8's instead of d10's. Its 12 less HP over 20 levels.

[Specter]

@Malifice, in the second part I was talking about Brd19/Fgt1, not what you suggested.

[EvilAnagram]

I really really wish I didn't write that Bards can be better archers. 😄

As far as my character is concerned, I am definitely going Ranger 5, then take a decision. Right now I don't even know what the other party members will be (except for a monk), but I know there is 4 of us and combat will be less frequent than the usual campaign.

Right now I believe it's either going to be:
- Ranger all the way;
- MC into Rogue (why wait for Vanish at 14 when you can get Cunning Action at 7)
- MC into Druid (why wait for Swift Quiver at 17 when you can get Haste at 10).

To me the issue with Rangers is the get the cool stuff too late compared the other classes.
I would stick with Ranger until at least 7, maybe 8 for the ASI. At that point, you can either stick with it until you get Volley or hop over to Rogue to boost your DPS and grab the lovely Rogue goodies.

[Malifice]

@Malifice, in the second part I was talking about Brd19/Fgt1, not what you suggested.

Ah cool bro.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, saying that Escape the Horde/Multiattack Defense are limited and then bringing up Leomund's Tiny Hut... bro. Like, bro.

Yeah, this is pretty bad. Almost as bad as bringing up that swiftquiver is only for a limited number of fights per day but then failing to mention that same fact for ranger at level 2.


Seriously, I think a valor bard can be a better archer than a ranger - although not by much and with a different flavour sometimes.

Generally if you like shooting things for massive damage whilst not being seen a bard with sharpshooter and greater invisibility is hard to beat. If all you care about is being a good archer then for a few levels you are roughly comparable (Invisibility being about as good as +2 to hit and a situational extra attack - if you have sharpshooter).

If you care about the other things rangers can do like healing, control, scouting then you can also get much of this from being a full spell-caster.


As to playing a ranger TO high levels - I have not. However I played one at level 15 for a 1 shot adventure. It was ok but I could see it getting dull in the long run. Your support abilities start out relevant but quickly other classes with spells get abilities that outshine yours. Your damage remains kind of OK, but damage itself isn't such a big deal at higher levels. Your spells are stuck at low levels. When it comes to attacks it is either shoot normally or volley. Volley was occasionally amazing, almost as good as fireball. Getting excited about your high level abilities being as useful as a level 3 spell is probably not a good sign though. Being able to do it at will is nice, but how many times per day do you actually face hordes like this? So yeah, a bit campaign dependant.

[Specter]

Yeah, this is pretty bad. Almost as bad as bringing up that swiftquiver is only for a limited number of fights per day but then failing to mention that same fact for ranger at level 2.

I wasn't the one who brought that up. But having one spare minute to set up a spell, without anybody moving ,for a specific combat will be something very rare, regardless.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, this is pretty bad. Almost as bad as bringing up that swiftquiver is only for a limited number of fights per day but then failing to mention that same fact for ranger at level 2.
Rangers don't have Swift Quiver at level 2.

Seriously, though, are you saying we should have mentioned the Rangers have limited Hunter's Mark and Hail of Thorns uses? That seems much less relevant because at level 2 with these builds they both have the Archery fighting style, but only the Ranger has spells that improve his archery. Sure, the number of spells is limited, but it's a higher number than the Bard has, which is zero.

Contrast that with a Bard who gets Swift Quiver at tenth level. That Bard has two spell slots he can use to improve his archery significantly, while the Ranger at that level has 10.


Generally if you like shooting things for massive damage whilst not being seen a bard with sharpshooter and greater invisibility is hard to beat. If all you care about is being a good archer then for a few levels you are roughly comparable (Invisibility being about as good as +2 to hit and a situational extra attack - if you have sharpshooter).
That's still, what, seven levels of being poor to middling as an archer? If we're talking multiclass builds for stealthy archers, Ranger 6/Rogue 2 is superior. You get the same advantage at no concentration when you hide, and you get extra damage on top.


If you care about the other things rangers can do like healing, control, scouting then you can also get much of this from being a full spell-caster.
But you can't get any of it as an extension of your archery, which is a cool thematic extension of the class. No one is denying that Bards are better Bards than Rangers, but they aren't as good at that mix of DPR and control that Rangers have.


As to playing a ranger TO high levels - I have not. However I played one at level 15 for a 1 shot adventure. It was ok but I could see it getting dull in the long run. Your support abilities start out relevant but quickly other classes with spells get abilities that outshine yours. Your damage remains kind of OK, but damage itself isn't such a big deal at higher levels. Your spells are stuck at low levels. When it comes to attacks it is either shoot normally or volley. Volley was occasionally amazing, almost as good as fireball. Getting excited about your high level abilities being as useful as a level 3 spell is probably not a good sign though. Being able to do it at will is nice, but how many times per day do you actually face hordes like this? So yeah, a bit campaign dependant.
I think you're probably not a good fit for a Ranger, honestly. I take no particular issue with anything you've said in this paragraph, but I think it's quite revealing. You have always struck me as someone who gets more enjoyment out of a full list of powerful and high-level spells to utilize in interesting ways, and the Ranger class is for people who want a handful of spells to compliment their natural abilities. It's perfectly acceptable for you to enjoy the full casting classes more, and I don't particularly expect you to enjoy being a Ranger, but the fact that the class doesn't mesh with your particular tastes is not a failing on the part of the class.

[MrStabby]

I think you're probably not a good fit for a Ranger, honestly. I take no particular issue with anything you've said in this paragraph, but I think it's quite revealing. You have always struck me as someone who gets more enjoyment out of a full list of powerful and high-level spells to utilize in interesting ways, and the Ranger class is for people who want a handful of spells to compliment their natural abilities. It's perfectly acceptable for you to enjoy the full casting classes more, and I don't particularly expect you to enjoy being a Ranger, but the fact that the class doesn't mesh with your particular tastes is not a failing on the part of the class.

Now this I find interesting, and possibly true although it isn't what I would have thought myself if you had not said it. I love the natural feel of the character, I love a class with a mix of combat and spellcasting abilities and so it seemed like an ideal class for me and I was disappointed. I like spells (although as much for flavour reasons as effect). What I really like is the options to do different things. Monk has been one of my favourite classes to play - distinctly supernatural, plenty of choice as to what to do with your actions.

Maybe it is simply that there are only so many ways to swing a sword. Too much I think that many of the classes are just about standing with enemy in range and taking the attack action. Shoves and grapples help but they just don't seem to be enough.

Bearing in mind what you said, some of it may be campaign specific as well. Doing extra damage is nice, but what I loved about the class at low levels was ensnaring strike. Finding yourself at high levels against low numbers of big flying beasties that take trivial damage and don't fail their saves kind of undermined my favourite part of the class. Likewise spike growth is good till you come across flying/burrowing/teleporting/magic immune/ranged enemies.

On yet further musing I think I also had a bit of resentment about the game telling me how to build my character. Two weapon fighting isn't that exciting, no great weapon fighting style, armoured less exciting without access to heavy armour. It really felt that unless I wanted to multiclass I should be some kind of archer.

Yeah, you might have a point - it isn't the class for me. I think it is a shame as it feels so close to almost being a perfect class for me.