DM having a copy of the PC sheet

[Lance Tankmen]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

[randomodo]

I keep a copy, though I mostly use them between sessions to help calibrate encounter planning. I can't see a lot of legit reasons for a player to reject the idea of the DM being able to look at a character sheet or keep a copy. I can see it leading to mutual distrust between players and DM, however, and that it could lead to or exacerbate a potentially toxic environment.

What did the player mean by "decide what we can and don't have?"

[Contrast]

I currently play in two games.

In one, we play at the DMs house and all the paraphenalia including character sheets just gets left in a box at the DMs house. The DM keeps track of what our characters have but I think this is mostly for interest/so he can include relevant stuff for us (probably helps that this is Dark Heresy which has a very easy 'level up' system so no need to spend hours leveling your character up). There's also one player in particular who can't be trusted to remember his character sheet, particularly if we haven't played for a few weeks so avoids that problem. The DM once noticed someone didn't have an ability they'd been using, turned out the person thought they'd got it at character creation but hadn't. Never been a problem otherwise.

In the other, we play at non-DMs house and we take our character sheets home and the DM mostly relies on us to pipe up about what our abilities are and know what they do. No-one has ever forgotten their character sheets or had a problem. The DM is less good at remembering all our abilities but this is probably because this campaign is the first time he's played 5E D&D. Occasionally someone uses an ability wrong but thats because we're all new to 5E - don't think anyone has ever actively tried to abuse anything.

In summary, either way is fine depending on the circumstances. It seems like the main issue is that you don't trust at least one of your players alone with his character sheet (rightly or wrongly). Keeping tabs on his character is fine. That said if you think he's actively trying to cheat/subvert the limitations of his character consistently then I don't know that trying to keep him at arms distance from his character is a long term solution. At that point you need to decide if dealing with it is worth the hassle or if you need to have a chat with the player OOC.

[Gastronomie]

What did the player mean by "decide what we can and don't have?"This, I have no idea what he means.

In my opinion it's near impossible for a DM to not have the copies of the PC sheets if he wishes to make the campaign truly enjoyable. DMs should craft some encounters once in a while in a way that the PCs can showcase their abilities (for instance, if there's a Cleric in the party, the DM should occasionally have the party fight zombies so that the Cleric can use Turn Undead, and if there's a Rogue in the party, the DM could at times have a Rogue NPC appear and leave clues in Theives' Cant).

It's also impossible to determine the difficulty of an encounter unless the DM has all the character sheets. For instance, if there's three characters with Fireball, the horde of Kobolds will be wrecked, but otherwise it can be menacing.

I simply cannot understand why a player would ever prefer to have the DM not have copies of the PC sheets.

[DwarvenGM]

I keep copies of all my player's character sheets. No one minds in fact most like it because when they forget theirs I have a copy so we don't have any problems. The only player that minds regularly "forgets" things. Most are easily catchable like never rolling concentration on spells unless I remind him. But every once in a while he'll try to use features he doesn't have and having access to his sheet makes it easier to catch these incidents with out bringing the game to a halt to figure out which features he did pick and which one he didn't.

Besides having the character sheets gives you all the info you need to make fun and challenging encounters where they can use their abilities in a fun none auto winning kind of way. You should sit down and talk with the player in question explain your reason behind keeping a copy and allow him to go over your copy every once in a while if he is paranoid about you altering it behind his back.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Besides having the character sheets gives you all the info you need to make fun and challenging encounters where they can use their abilities in a fun none auto winning kind of way. You should sit down and talk with the player in question explain your reason behind keeping a copy and allow him to go over your copy every once in a while if he is paranoid about you altering it behind his back.

Yeah, I agree. Having your players' sheets to hand is really useful and allows you to run a better game. As well as building encounters to suit their abilities, you also have access to their passive scores and spell saves and stuff, so you don't need to keep asking for them.

I mostly do PbP, so I kind of have to manage everyone's sheets by default (I have them bookmarked in their own folder, so I can open them all quickly), but I'd do the same thing if I DMed face-to-face.

[Lance Tankmen]

I'm not entirely sure by What he ment as it was 2nd hand but I'm quite sure he doesn't like that Informed him he already used an ability earlier and couldn't use it again til a short or long rest. Otherwise I assume it's because I know his stats and to hit score and gear so he's unable to shift them if he wanted to, he seems like a guy who really wants his character to be amazing and someone the group says " wow" but his first character's rolls were too average so he claimed he didn't think that cleric was for him and rerolled a better character . Sorry off track but yeah basically as I figured there is no valid reason to have a problem with a dm having copies.

[Pugwampy]

I enjoy looking at PC sheets and if there is a problem ingame , I will request theirs to see if i can find the gremlin but I dont keep copies for myself . I do make a note of their AB dice rolls when they create a hero .

I consider character sheets sacred ground . I dont have trust or game balance issue,s and i keep a diary of the sessions sooo noone can really sneak in even a minor magic goodie without my knowledge .

[Anonymouswizard]

I've never had a GM asked me for a copy of my sheet, although I'm always happy to give them one, especially for use between adventures. I've once had a GM to tell me to stop tracking ammo as he was going to do it to make sure we didn't cheat (despite at this point me having printed off a sheet so I could track individual clips, the ammo game interests me enough that I'll buy ammo unless the GM says he's handwaving it), which was annoying as I never cheat on the ammo I have.

I've also seen players elect to leave their sheet with the GM so that there's no/less chance of it going missing. I actually prefer this for most games, where levelling up takes less than 10 minutes and so can be done as soon as the PCs hit downtime rather than between sessions (because, in real life, I'm the only one who will have levelled up their character between sessions). It's also useful to know what abilities the characters have, especially in situations/systems where you can't fudge it by class (if a character can become invisible while in sunlight I want to know while planning the session, so I can include some situations where it's useful and some where it isn't).

[Master O'Laughs]

As a player, our DM wants copies of our sheets so he knows what our abilities are. I don't necessarily mind, but he sometimes gives off the enjoys player killing vibe. When that happens, I become less willing to want to update him on my abilities because then it feels like he can plan to kill us better.

I am also in a 3.5 campaign where we just leave sheets at the DMs house so no one can forget it and I have no qualms there.

[Afrodactyl]

In my group, whoever is due to be hosting next generally keeps all the character sheets, along with the hard copies of the rulebooks and all that.

Generally though, the DM and players will at the very least have a notebook full of notes on what's been going on. The DM also generally has people's passive perception and AC written down, for NPC stealth checks and making combat a tiny bit faster respectively.

[NNescio]

No, because I generally do not have trust issues (and those I do have with are usually better off getting the OOC talk or getting booted from the game).

I do try to maintain a good knowledge of the overall capabilities of each character though, to ensure that there are relatively well-balanced (and maybe giving a few tailored magic items here and there to fix gross imbalances, but I try to do that subtly), and more importantly to design fun encounters to give each of them an opportunity to shine (and to avoid me getting caught unprepared by a spell, especially divination ones that require me to supply some information to the player). For that sometimes I would ask to look at their character sheets between sessions to take some notes (especially after they level up), but not in the middle of a game. I trust my players to not cheat.

[Hopeless]

I don't have a problem with this, but dm's are just as capable of messing this up as the players!

All it takes is one missed session and the other players not wanting to carry some item and a dm who really doesn't care they shouldn't be messing with someone else's character and you end up wondering why leave a character sheet if they're going to ignore what's written on it?

One player actually tried to get away with wielding a great axe in one hand, a two handed sword in the other AND riding a war horse into battle (3.0 rules) so yes this is important!

Then there's finding a Bone Ring during a game, telling the dm you have it written on your character sheet because he made a house rule about that being the way to claim found items only a session later discovering another player claimed it because the dm wrote it all out for them to know what was found rather than mention my character had claimed it already.
Sigh that was really annoying but only emphasised it wasn't only players who fell foul of this!

[Telesto]

It honestly sounds like you just have a cheater on your hands. I've had a number of lazy PCs who will only read the short description of spells (Pathfinder), but more over I have had a player who constantly fudges his die rolls, surpasses his spells/day, and fudges just about everything else to suit him. He is no longer a friend.

[Maxilian]

I don't have a problem with this, but dm's are just as capable of messing this up as the players!

All it takes is one missed session and the other players not wanting to carry some item and a dm who really doesn't care they shouldn't be messing with someone else's character and you end up wondering why leave a character sheet if they're going to ignore what's written on it?

One player actually tried to get away with wielding a great axe in one hand, a two handed sword in the other AND riding a war horse into battle (3.0 rules) so yes this is important!

You don't need to see the Character Sheet to realize this, in the first fight this would have become obvious.

[Daishain]

I make notes on AC, passive perception, ability details that I don't trust myself to remember off the top of my head, and distribution of noteable loot. That all goes on a subsheet of the same excel file where I keep campaign data.

But beyond that, no, I don't need their exact character sheet.

[Sianthus]

Having a copy of the PC sheets also facilitates quicker combat too. My dm keeps a basic copy of our sheets with our AC, spells, HP and all. That way he doesn't have to ask us questions like "What's __'s AC" every time an enemy tries to hit us.

Edit: As Daishain said, passive perception too! Since asking them what's their passive perception is a big tell of something about to go horribly wrong sometimes.. :smalltongue:

[Maxilian]

As a player, our DM wants copies of our sheets so he knows what our abilities are. I don't necessarily mind, but he sometimes gives off the enjoys player killing vibe. When that happens, I become less willing to want to update him on my abilities because then it feels like he can plan to kill us better.

I am also in a 3.5 campaign where we just leave sheets at the DMs house so no one can forget it and I have no qualms there.

As a DM, i love to give my playes the idea that i enjoy player killing, but that's mainly cause i'm really soft with my players (When it comes to actually killing their character -unless they do something stupid and die... TWICE, the same day) and i need to make them feel like they can die :P

Note: Having the character sheet with me, its not going to help me create a fight to kill the PCs, in the end, if i really wish to make a fight to kill the PCs, i will make a fight that will kill the PCs.

[WereRabbitz]

Our DM request we email a fresh copy before every session to them. We maintain them as far as New Abilities, Feats, Loot, ect...

I think a DM should have a copy of the character sheets, but it's asking too much of a DM to have to keep track of your abilities and maintain that your not breaking the rules be it accident or purposeful.

[Maxilian]

Having a copy of the PC sheets also facilitates quicker combat too. My dm keeps a basic copy of our sheets with our AC, spells, HP and all. That way he doesn't have to ask us questions like "What's __'s AC" every time an enemy tries to hit us.

This is the main thing about having a copy, that way i don't have to ask:

-What's the PC AC when i attack
-What's the DC of a spell after the PC cast something
-How much HP do you have left
-And what Saves do the players have

[smcmike]

This is a trust issue. Specifically, you have an untrustworthy player on your hands. The only reason to object to the DM having a copy of your sheet is if you are trying to sneak something past the DM.

Suggestions:

You mention that there was some issues with rolling bad stats. Normally I liked rolled stats, but the standard array is probably a good idea in the future if stats are a point of conflict.

Keep copies of the sheets, obviously. I don't think it's worth arguing about - if the player has a problem he can walk. You don't need to justify the need of the DM to know the players' information.

Try developing an open record-keeping system. Having a physical representation of character resources reduces the possibility of conflict. Tokens can represent spell slots or Rage uses or just about any other spendable resource. Don't introduce this as a way to prevent cheating, but simply as a way for everyone to keep track of the game state.

[Toadkiller]

I tend to email my DM a copy of my sheet when I level up (though I may have forgotten this last time). This does a couple of direct things for me- he knows the system better and makes suggestions from time to time (especially early on) on possible tweaks and it creates an offsite backup in case I misplace/delete my sheet.

Indirectly, especially since I'm playing a wizard, he gets a preview of my abilities and can weave them into the story as needed. Sometimes a spell will need a ruling if used in a particular way. I try to highlight that so he can make the ruling ahead of time. Once or twice he's ruled in a way (or pointed out RAW) that caused me to change my mind on a choice, which is handy to know.

[CursedRhubarb]

First game I played the DM required we leave our sheets with them between sessions so we didn't even get to actually keep our own characters. Was annoying but didn't cause many issues except planning character development mentioned either copying your info or having to get it from the DM.

One I'm in now we keep our sheets and the DM just has us keep our main info, like AC and save DC, on folded papers that he hangs over the DM screen so everyone can keep track of initiative order and he can speed things along knowing if mobs hit or not without having to keep asking what our DC, AC, max hp, or passives are. Works pretty well. Only restriction is at level up we have to roll for hp so he can verify the roll but that's normal I thought.

[Xetheral]

Each of my players has a folder with their cuurent character sheet, past versions of their character sheets, index cards for magic items, and any notes they take. I keep the folders between sessions simply so that there is never a problem with someone losing theirs.

[pwykersotz]

I actually enjoy it when the GM asks for my character sheet. It means they'll probably use it, which has typically resulted in a better campaign for me.

As for me, I don't keep them. I run a fairly fast and loose table, and at best I'll make notes of AC values so I don't have to ask over and over. Those notes rarely persist between sessions though.

[Kish]

I'm not entirely sure by What he ment as it was 2nd hand but I'm quite sure he doesn't like that Informed him he already used an ability earlier and couldn't use it again til a short or long rest. Otherwise I assume it's because I know his stats and to hit score and gear so he's unable to shift them if he wanted to, he seems like a guy who really wants his character to be amazing and someone the group says " wow" but his first character's rolls were too average so he claimed he didn't think that cleric was for him and rerolled a better character . Sorry off track but yeah basically as I figured there is no valid reason to have a problem with a dm having copies.
Yeah, that sounds like he said outright "I don't like that the DM can stop me from cheating" or, more optimistically, like he doesn't realize D&D isn't supposed to be freeform with the dice rolls being suggestions.

[Ruslan]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???Entitled jerk alert.

[Xethik]

Having a copy of the PC sheets also facilitates quicker combat too. My dm keeps a basic copy of our sheets with our AC, spells, HP and all. That way he doesn't have to ask us questions like "What's __'s AC" every time an enemy tries to hit us.

Edit: As Daishain said, passive perception too! Since asking them what's their passive perception is a big tell of something about to go horribly wrong sometimes.. :smalltongue:
The only problem with something like this is temporary/situational bonuses to those things that the DM is more likely to forget than a player. As a DM, it can be tricky remembering that this player has Haste or that player still has a Shield running from earlier, so I think there is some merit in asking for AC values (or "21 hits?" and the like). Same sort of thing for spell save DCs.

Passive perceptions I do keep on-hand, though. I usually don't want to break narrative with game talk and not knowing they missed something can be nice.

[Seerow]

So I'm a little confused:

Is the DM asking for just a copy of the character sheet, or to have the only copy of it?


The first, I can understand and totally get behind. The way my groups always do it is have a copy of our character sheets available on a shared Dropbox folder so everyone can check out everyone else's characters during downtime. Also helps in that if anyone forgets their sheet, we can print off an extra copy without too much hassle.

The second? No. I can definitely understand a player being frustrated at not having access to his own character sheet between games; and if this is a game where there's already trust issues (which it sounds like there are) it leads to questions of "What if the DM is changing my character sheet between games? Do I really remember my stats well enough to be sure?", which could be where the player in question is coming from in this situation.

[Thrudd]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

I think it's basically essential to have a copy of the sheets. You need to know what the characters are capable of and what items and spells they have. You need to know their perception and investigation and related abilities, so you don't have to ask the players all the time and give away when the characters might be missing something.
It helps you better prepare adventures (which you can tell them) , and as an added bonus it helps you catch and prevent cheating. Even if the players are just making mistakes and not cheating on purpose, it is your job as DM to keep things fair and following the rules.

[Keltest]

I keep copies of the character sheets because A: I need to have them to know what everyone has and can do and B: because I'm the one who brings everything D&D related and who types up fresh character sheets when the old ones get too scribbled over.

I can understand wanting a copy of your own to have, but there really isn't any reason the DM shouldn't have a copy, and every reason for them to.

[JAL_1138]

When I DM, I don't keep copies of the full sheet, but I ask to see them on occasion and do keep notes on class, level, AC, Passive Perceptions, spell DCs, and whatnot, just to make things easier and faster when running. The index cards with that info also make decent initiative-order cards.

As a player, I don't necessarily mind making copies of the sheet if asked, and already use a name-tent with the info described above on it to make it easy on the DM. I can understand wanting to keep some tricks up one's sleeve, though--I could imagine a situation where a player has some concern about the DM building encounters specifically to counter every neat ability or spell the PC has. "I took Heat Metal, so the enemies all use nonmetallic weapons and armor. I have the Trip Attack maneuver, so all the enemies are immune to the Prone condition. I took Hypnotic Pattern, so all the enemies are immune to being Charmed. I have a really good Dex save, so the enemies all target my low Int instead" and so on and so forth. But, then, the DM can just make notes so anything you try only ever works once, so you don't gain much by keeping the sheet secret. They'll find out eventually, as you play your character.

[Plaguescarred]

So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???I let my PC keep their sheet, but i make any pertinent notes i want from them for encounter building purposes, as well as treasure allotement so i can gauge stuff better and remember who's having what.


The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have".Well apart from Class ability or Feat choices its the premise of the DM to decide what a PC has or will come by, especially treasure so it's a bit sad that the player don't like this DM's purview.

[Slipperychicken]

The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

As a player, I've always been glad to give my GM a copy if he asks, or to let him look at my sheets whenever he pleases. If he catches a mistake, I'm happy because that means I'm playing closer to the rules of the game, and not getting any unfair advantages or anything like that.

I just started GMing, and I want to have copies. I'm just thinking about how to get the sheets from them. I was planning to take photos of their sheets before each session, but email sounds good too. I just want to keep the copies on my laptop and not have a thousand old sheets cluttering my room.


Entitled jerk alert.

This too. Sounds like your player wants to cheat. If he wants stuff he doesn't have, then he can earn it in game instead of cheating it onto his sheet.

[Socratov]

As a player I like sharing my sheet with the DM and even the other players (I am also usually one of the first to finish establishing a framework of my character) so bonds and whatnot can be found on their notice. I usually use Mythweavers for that purpose and I have any secret stuff to note down I do so in the private field. I trust my co-players to be able to separate PC and Player knowledge. If they can't they will learn quickly as we as a group don't like metagaming beyond stuff to help the story along and speed up play where appropriate.

For the game I'm starting in another system (Anima Prime RPG) I have flat out told the players that I want their sheets so I can take their backstories (I requested half an a4 page, not more not less) and capabilities to tailor the story to them. I expect to be able to trust them regarding the dicepools they build up and spend, and trust them to trust me to paly fair for mine. I have created stronger enemies then their characters and on request I can always show them what I'd made. But I digress. Point is, I want to knwo what my players con do so I can involve them in the story and make the story about them. For the rest I expoect my players to act as adults enough to show honest behaviour regarding abilities, resources, etc.

[Ruslan]

I just started GMing, and I want to have copies. I'm just thinking about how to get the sheets from them. I was planning to take photos of their sheets before each session, but email sounds good too. I just want to keep the copies on my laptop and not have a thousand old sheets cluttering my room.Have them keep their sheet on an online site such as myth-weavers, and give you a read permission.

[Vogonjeltz]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

It depends on proximity generally (i.e. if playing via skype or whatever, probably not), but even if you don't, it's reasonable for you as DM to track virtually all the information on the character sheet at some point or another.

After all, you'd need to know the Perception scores of the characters so that you don't alert them to when those are being employed.

I think you have two options on this:
1) Ignore it until something else happens.
2) Sit down with the player who voiced their dislike, ask them about it and why they dislike it. Be open and honest with them about why you like to keep a copy;

For the specific concern as you Lance Tankmen have outlined it, it seems like the player misunderstood that you were just reminding them that the limited resource had already been used, not that you were saying they no longer had the resource when they really did.

edit: Then again, based on the information you gave later, maybe they're just trying to cheat to try and make them feel better about themselves. Even if it's the latter, try to approach with some understanding and empathy, rather than just dismissing their feelings. If they feel like you're judging them, it could just engender more shame and hostility.


No, because I generally do not have trust issues (and those I do have with are usually better off getting the OOC talk or getting booted from the game).

Trust issues aren't the reason to have the sheet, it's because, as surprise and immersion are part of the enjoyment of the game, it's sometimes important to be able to refer to character information without telling the players you are doing so.

i.e. Hiding creatures Dexterity (Stealth) checks are contested by a potential observers passive Wisdom (Perception) Score.

If you don't want to reveal to the players that there's something hidden then it's important not to have to ask them all what their perception scores are every other scene.

[Kish]

To some extent I think there's a catch-22 here.

i.e., "there's an issue with the DM having a copy of the character's sheet" comes up, here, in the context of actively having a player who is pretty open about being willing to misreport/misremember what's on that sheet if the DM couldn't catch him out on it. That player is the only one who sees an objection. Now, an adversarial DM could potentially also use knowledge of the character sheet to target implausibly tailored enemies to kill that character...but that's not the context here. If everyone was on the "what's on the character sheet is binding" page there would be no objections to the DM having a copy of it.

[BigONotation]

Ah the beauty of doing everything in Roll20 with automated character sheets (5e Shaped by Kryx and companion script) and the chat log holding every roll for the entire campaign. AC/HP/PP on the token, every spell cast, every rage used, etc etc tracked. I even use it for my in-person group now. Even the free version is the best system of record for D&D in my opinion.

[Sir cryosin]

As a DM and a player there is no problem with the Dm having a copies of players character sheets. It sounds like the player is someone that's out to get the Dm and will fug adilitys, rolls, and stats.

[Sir cryosin]

Ah the beauty of doing everything in Roll20 with automated character sheets (5e Shaped by Kryx and companion script) and the chat log holding every roll for the entire campaign. AC/HP/PP on the token, every spell cast, every rage used, etc etc tracked. I even use it for my in-person group now. Even the free version is the best system of record for D&D in my opinion.

My group uses fantasy grounds and it keep everything right on it we load up and dm starts the game and makes a character sheet available for use.

[JAL_1138]

To some extent I think there's a catch-22 here.

i.e., "there's an issue with the DM having a copy of the character's sheet" comes up, here, in the context of actively having a player who is pretty open about being willing to misreport/misremember what's on that sheet if the DM couldn't catch him out on it. That player is the only one who sees an objection. Now, an adversarial DM could potentially also use knowledge of the character sheet to target implausibly tailored enemies to kill that character...but that's not the context here. If everyone was on the "what's on the character sheet is binding" page there would be no objections to the DM having a copy of it.



Yah, I think I phrased my comment poorly. Typing on a cell phone isn't the best for that.

Point was that even wanting to keep a trick up your sleeve doesn't stop a DM who's determined to shut a character down, since they have to find out your abilities anyway when you use them. So keeping your sheet from them doesn't actually accomplish anything. Barring cheating, anyway.

Not accusing OP of doing that, btw; it was more a hypothetical scenario for why a player might want to keep their sheet to themselves rather than hand in a copy (even though it wouldn't really work).

In this specific case, it really seems like the player wants to be able to fudge their abilities/inventory. That's no good, and I can see why the OP has trust issues. The DM runs the game--they get to decide what items are available, what spells are allowed and which are banned, etc. A player may not like the DM's decisions and a DM can certainly be overly-restrictive there, but it's still up to the DM.

[BW022]

For any home campaign... I ask players for copies of their character sheets, typically each time they level. I give an XP bonus for those who do. In rare cases, I'll review the sheets. At the table, I'll typically just ask for character sheets if I need to know the information, but in general I'd rather not.

I don't typically use character sheet information in selecting encounters. I generally know their level and abilities through play and can select based on CRs, experience, or based on what they handled previously. I do use the sheets for the following.

Preparing Encounters. Sometimes you need some idea how encounters would go. This could be as simple as looking up the character's languages, to see if they might understand a conversation they may overhear. It makes running the encounter far easier than having to stop the game and ask which characters speak orc. Sometimes, knowing backgrounds, skills, etc. allows you to just rule that a character knows something or can do something rather than making "winging it". For example, if a character is from a city you are going to, you could come up with names of people, locations, descriptions of places, etc. for that person or maybe know start them with a map -- vs. a vague "You know who to ask about arranging a ship."

Items and Ability Recaps. It can be hard to remember what items or abilities players might have. Sometimes they forget. Again, it can make certain encounters go faster if you remember someone has a ring of fire resistance, favourite enemies, etc. and just naturally work them into the encounter.

Hidden Knowledge/Items. Sometimes it is important do know details. For example, if the player got some stolen goods... is any of the character wearing the stolen necklace? If not, where is it? If someone is pick-pocketed... what is their passive perception and what is in their pouch? Maybe someone is doing a locate object spell on the stolen necklace? I'd roleplay pick-pocket encounter much differently if a wizard has a spider familiar in his cloak.

Missing Players. Sometimes players can't make it to a game. While I typically ghost the character, knowing what items and abilities they have is still important. There may also be cases, when I'm simply going to need to have them take some action -- maybe they are the only one who can speak sylvan or they have the ability to fly up a cliff and drop ropes to the other characters.

I don't see how trust is an issue here -- for the DM. Ignoring the fact it is impossible to hide any of this from the DM (you can't have items which your player can hide from the DM as they would need to say they picked up the item or buy it and your abilities are obvious as you play your character, declare actions, make rolls, give save DCs, etc.) if you don't trust your DM to not use or abuse the information, then I'm not sure how you don't expect them to do so knowing the same information they would find out via running the game. If the DM just wants to nerf you... he doesn't need your character sheet. He can just put in creatures several CRs higher, or just invent stuff on the fly.

[Pex]

Way back when in 2E players tended to keep their sheets. The thought of the DM holding on to them would give rise to arguments of DM tyranny and trust issues. Also, since even the DMG discusses the matter, it was popular back then for players to play the same character with different DMs, all XP counting, and magic items kept subject to review. The player had to keep his sheet.

In early 3E the concept of playing the same character with different DMs went away and no one noticed or cared. Because of the plethora of options players were just as happy creating new characters to try out something different. It was at this time that the DM keeping the sheets became popular, no thoughts of DM tyranny at all. If a player couldn't make it his character could still be there as an NPC. No more issues of players forgetting or losing their sheets. It was just convenient having everything in one place, especially since usually the DM hosted the game at his place.

As the game continued groups just decided their own thing. Having not played 4E can't comment, but in Pathfinder tradition had players keep their own sheets again. I also think Ye Olde RPGA and Pathfinder Society, which requires players keep their sheets, encouraged the tradition for home play. Even now in 5E players keep their own sheets, even if only by laptop. Still, the DM holding onto them for a home game does not generate tyranny talk as it did in the past, which is a good thing, but I do think it's not a common thing.

If you as DM have trust issues with a player, who holds onto the character sheet is not the problem you need to resolve. If a player refuses to let the DM see his sheet, the DM should refuse to let the player sit in the chair.

[Hrugner]

Back in the day the DM held onto our sheets so if someone missed a session the DM could run the character. Nobody ever complained about it, even the guy who came back after missing two games only to find his math corrected in several spots. The dude was just bitter at having been caught at cheating.

[Asmotherion]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

I am using an other approach. If, for example I find out about a player trying to "forget" on purpose something, I might pretend not to notice and let him roll with it, if it's benefical to the scenario. I however have a very strict rule on one thing: Don't get caught cheating for your own benefit. If they manage to trick me, so be it... but if I catch them cheat just for their own profit, there are heavy penalties... I once went as far as bestow a permanent curse on a player that costed him 5 points in his primary attacking atribute (Dexterity) just because he thought I did not notice he changed his constitution from 16 to 18.

[JAL_1138]

Way back when in 2E players tended to keep their sheets. The thought of the DM holding on to them would give rise to arguments of DM tyranny and trust issues. Also, since even the DMG discusses the matter, it was popular back then for players to play the same character with different DMs, all XP counting, and magic items kept subject to review. The player had to keep his sheet.

In early 3E the concept of playing the same character with different DMs went away and no one noticed or cared. Because of the plethora of options players were just as happy creating new characters to try out something different. It was at this time that the DM keeping the sheets became popular, no thoughts of DM tyranny at all. If a player couldn't make it his character could still be there as an NPC. No more issues of players forgetting or losing their sheets. It was just convenient having everything in one place, especially since usually the DM hosted the game at his place.

As the game continued groups just decided their own thing. Having not played 4E can't comment, but in Pathfinder tradition had players keep their own sheets again. I also think Ye Olde RPGA and Pathfinder Society, which requires players keep their sheets, encouraged the tradition for home play. Even now in 5E players keep their own sheets, even if only by laptop. Still, the DM holding onto them for a home game does not generate tyranny talk as it did in the past, which is a good thing, but I do think it's not a common thing.

If you as DM have trust issues with a player, who holds onto the character sheet is not the problem you need to resolve. If a player refuses to let the DM see his sheet, the DM should refuse to let the player sit in the chair.

THere's a difference, I think, between the DM having a picture or Xerox of the sheet and keeping the sheet itself. Keeping the sheet itself would be aggravating; I'd want to be able to review it, level up, make purchases (when plausible; e.g., not mid-dungeon), and review/change spell selection (when plausible, e.g., not mid-dungeon without time to rest). I might balk at the DM keeping the sheet rather than a copy/photo/pdf/whatever of the sheet.

[lytokk]

I don't see any problem in the DM having a copy of they players character sheets. In the session 2 previous, the group ended up levelling twice and as all of them are new players, they decided to level up on their own. After the last session I took everyone's sheets to perform an audit. Just basically to look them over, total up skill points, (should note we're playing 3.5). In the game I ran previously one or two of the players had mistakenly given themselves far too many points and feats, and another one had been forgetting skill points entirely. So now I just make it a best practice to audit the sheets every once in a while. It helps me keep up with what they're doing and make sure everyone's levelling up correctly.

[Ruslan]

I am using an other approach. If, for example I find out about a player trying to "forget" on purpose something, I might pretend not to notice and let him roll with it, if it's benefical to the scenario. I however have a very strict rule on one thing: Don't get caught cheating for your own benefit. If they manage to trick me, so be it... but if I catch them cheat just for their own profit, there are heavy penalties... I once went as far as bestow a permanent curse on a player that costed him 5 points in his primary attacking atribute (Dexterity) just because he thought I did not notice he changed his constitution from 16 to 18.

Why not just put a permanent curse of not being able to play with your group again? I mean, do you really need a player at your table who is both a proven cheater and extremely frustrated?

[2D8HP]

Is the DM asking for just a copy of the character sheet, or to have the only copy of it?.Are you kidding?
As a player I prefer the DM handles that mess!
I just want to know what my PC perceives, the rest is rules minutiae, I'm well rid of. If the DM wants to add up the modifiers etc. instead, welcome to it!
If I don't trust the DM to game right, why would I sit at that table?

[Socratov]

Why not just put a permanent curse of not being able to play with your group again? I mean, do you really need a player at your table who is both a proven cheater and extremely frustrated?

becuase to estrange someone is to invite strife and break the group up. Sure no DnD is better then bad DnD, but if you can educate the cheater in question you might keep him and keep a merry group. This serves 2 purposes: it discourages cheating in a semi consequential way (by keeping it in the game), but it does make an example out of hte player in question. It also gives him a chance at atonement or at least learning and improving their behavriour. Sure, if the player refuses to learn and keeps cheating that's a paddlin'. But if he learns his lesson and becomes a better behaving player at the table that's a situation where everyone wins.

[Syll]

The only reason to object to the DM having a copy of your sheet is if you are trying to sneak something past the DM

Sometimes... that's the point. For example, I might not want the dm to know what mundane items i just bought, or what spells i have prepared.

That's not to say I'm trying to cheat, but rather that a DM is every bit as capable of metagaming as a player is.

I've been in games where i would write a copy of spells prepared, or items purchased, or even what my readied action is on a folded bit of paper and put it in the middle of the table so that there isn't a question of cheating, but at the same time i don't have to wonder if events would have unfolded the same way if the DM hadn't known what i had prepared.

[Temperjoke]

Trust is a two-way street, you have to hope both sides know how to drive.

What I mean is, I wouldn't let the DM keep the only copy of my character sheet, because I'm horrible about remembering all the details. I have no objection to both of us keeping an updated copy; it keeps me honest, and hopefully allows the DM to keep the the plot relevant to my character. At the same time, if I have evidence that the DM is breaking that trust by purposefully abusing the knowledge of my character (DC checks and saves that I never seem to make, enemies that I can't hit, but hit me for half my points in one attack, etc.) then that is an issue that needs to be addressed, and might make me want to renegotiate what information the DM has.

[pwykersotz]

Sometimes... that's the point. For example, I might not want the dm to know what mundane items i just bought, or what spells i have prepared.

That's not to say I'm trying to cheat, but rather that a DM is every bit as capable of metagaming as a player is.

I've been in games where i would write a copy of spells prepared, or items purchased, or even what my readied action is on a folded bit of paper and put it in the middle of the table so that there isn't a question of cheating, but at the same time i don't have to wonder if events would have unfolded the same way if the DM hadn't known what i had prepared.

I have some respect for this method, but I've requested it to be eliminated at my table. I'm a pretty good DM according to my players, but I'm horrible at improv. The less time I have to process information, the less well developed it becomes. It cuts heavily into the flow of game as I try to assess any complexities that might arise from different options. Sometimes I miss those complexities altogether.

For example, let's say I look at your spell list and see you have Disintegrate prepared. I might think to myself, "If that was used on that trade ship that's coming into port, which it might be because there are hostiles on board, it might cause the cargo to spill out in such a way that forces the hostiles to choose between recovery, fight, or flight. That could open up some interesting options with the Captain who doesn't know about the cargo, and the First Mate who's leading the smugglers."

Whereas if you disintegrate without me thinking about it, you might get a "The ship now has a 10' hole in it. What do you do?"

[Sigreid]

One of the members of our group likes to have a copy when he DMs. None of the rest of us seem to care, though we may ask for a piece of specific info like your passive perception. I've not seen a situation where I think it would be beneficial to have it as I probably wouldn't play with people I had major trust issues with.

[Lance Tankmen]

Okay so I'm happy with the replies as none of them seemed to voice a reason as to why I shouldn't have a copy of my PC sheet. I just wondered if there was some angle I wasn't looking at it from. To clear some things up, we actually use the app on our phones/ipad to track characters as it works wonders. Being DM I have no characters so I have my PC in it. The group is mostly new to d&d and none of them have voiced any displeasure at my style of dming. The player I've mentioned so far is the newest to the group but most experienced to D&D hence why I felt the need to check on here rather than go with my gut on this player. My gut appears to be right

[Sigreid]

Okay so I'm happy with the replies as none of them seemed to voice a reason as to why I shouldn't have a copy of my PC sheet. I just wondered if there was some angle I wasn't looking at it from. To clear some things up, we actually use the app on our phones/ipad to track characters as it works wonders. Being DM I have no characters so I have my PC in it. The group is mostly new to d&d and none of them have voiced any displeasure at my style of dming. The player I've mentioned so far is the newest to the group but most experienced to D&D hence why I felt the need to check on here rather than go with my gut on this player. My gut appears to be right

The one reason I could see for wanting to keep the DM from the sheet (other than you're a cheat) would be a adversarial DM that will plan for the BBEG to counter every one of your abilities, even if he has no way of knowing you have a particular ability. But that's a player trying to counter a bad DM and that doesn't sound like what is going on here. Though it may be a hold over from experiences with such a DM.

[Safety Sword]

When I DM, I don't keep copies of the full sheet, but I ask to see them on occasion and do keep notes on class, level, AC, Passive Perceptions, spell DCs, and whatnot, just to make things easier and faster when running. The index cards with that info also make decent initiative-order cards.

As a player, I don't necessarily mind making copies of the sheet if asked, and already use a name-tent with the info described above on it to make it easy on the DM. I can understand wanting to keep some tricks up one's sleeve, though--I could imagine a situation where a player has some concern about the DM building encounters specifically to counter every neat ability or spell the PC has. "I took Heat Metal, so the enemies all use nonmetallic weapons and armor. I have the Trip Attack maneuver, so all the enemies are immune to the Prone condition. I took Hypnotic Pattern, so all the enemies are immune to being Charmed. I have a really good Dex save, so the enemies all target my low Int instead" and so on and so forth. But, then, the DM can just make notes so anything you try only ever works once, so you don't gain much by keeping the sheet secret. They'll find out eventually, as you play your character.

This.

I use the information on your sheet to speed up play. I don't want to ask "What's your AC?" before every attack, it slows everything down and breaks the flow of my descriptive combat scene.

If you have a good DM that plans encounters to be fun, challenging and occasionally counter your tricks when appropriate then you have no reason to have a secret sheet.

I can only see one reason for the DM not to have the character information: Cheaters.

And if you have that player in your game, don't have that player in your game.

[Knaight]

I generally don't keep the sheets, and generally GM. With that said, that's just because standard procedure is to have a folder, stick all the sheets in it, and then have whoever is hosting the game store it. It just makes the logistics easier for everyone.

[SillyPopeNachos]

My first group ever (playing 3.5) had us all leaving our character sheets with the DM. My pathfinder group DM told us he didn't want to keep track of them. My 5e group, it depended on the DM. Caleb only wanted index cards with key values (initiative, AC, PP, etc.), and Larry said he didn't care whether we hung on to our sheets or left them with him. Personally, I never ask my players for their sheets, given the only things I track are gold/equipment.

[Safety Sword]

Are you kidding?
As a player I prefer the DM handles that mess!
I just want to know what my PC perceives, the rest is rules minutiae, I'm well rid of. If the DM wants to add up the modifiers etc. instead, welcome to it!
If I don't trust the DM to game right, why would I sit at that table?

You are welcome at my game any time. This is playing right people!

[Safety Sword]

I generally don't keep the sheets, and generally GM. With that said, that's just because standard procedure is to have a folder, stick all the sheets in it, and then have whoever is hosting the game store it. It just makes the logistics easier for everyone.

Dropbox and electronic sheets. Same idea though.

[Syll]

Dropbox and electronic sheets. Same idea though.

On that note, i have since become leery of e-sheets. I was once playing a campaign on roll20 where the dm decided, without telling anyone, that he had found a way better character sheet UI, and decided to surprise us with the 'upgrade'...... all data for all characters was lost.

[Baptor]

I'm not entirely sure by What he ment as it was 2nd hand but I'm quite sure he doesn't like that Informed him he already used an ability earlier and couldn't use it again til a short or long rest. Otherwise I assume it's because I know his stats and to hit score and gear so he's unable to shift them if he wanted to, he seems like a guy who really wants his character to be amazing and someone the group says " wow" but his first character's rolls were too average so he claimed he didn't think that cleric was for him and rerolled a better character . Sorry off track but yeah basically as I figured there is no valid reason to have a problem with a dm having copies.

Man, sounds like a player I used to have. He wasn't bad and I liked the characters he played, but he had a chip on his shoulder about everything (not just D&D). I never punished players unless they were jerks (which was rare) and I really rewarded good players and good roleplaying. Just about everyone had special items and powers including himself as rewards for things they did that impressed me. He had formed a mages guild and built permanent portals. Pretty accomplished hero. Then one day one of the other players confides that behind my back he said he doesn't like my DM style because I am "always working against them" and I'm "treating the game as DM vs. players." To this day I don't know who peed in his Cheerios. I'm probably the easiest going DM there is. You can only fail forward in my game and I richly reward success.

[Daishain]

On that note, i have since become leery of e-sheets. I was once playing a campaign on roll20 where the dm decided, without telling anyone, that he had found a way better character sheet UI, and decided to surprise us with the 'upgrade'...... all data for all characters was lost.
And that is why you don't let anyone that doesn't live the first rule of data handling anywhere near that stuff

[Safety Sword]

On that note, i have since become leery of e-sheets. I was once playing a campaign on roll20 where the dm decided, without telling anyone, that he had found a way better character sheet UI, and decided to surprise us with the 'upgrade'...... all data for all characters was lost.

That's unfortunate.

However, because I only play in person with my groups it has never happened to me. I find it easier if people manage their own character sheets but save them in a place that can be accessed by the DM so they can be "audited" as suggested earlier.

[Syll]

I have some respect for this method, but I've requested it to be eliminated at my table. I'm a pretty good DM according to my players, but I'm horrible at improv. The less time I have to process information, the less well developed it becomes. It cuts heavily into the flow of game as I try to assess any complexities that might arise from different options. Sometimes I miss those complexities altogether.

For example, let's say I look at your spell list and see you have Disintegrate prepared. I might think to myself, "If that was used on that trade ship that's coming into port, which it might be because there are hostiles on board, it might cause the cargo to spill out in such a way that forces the hostiles to choose between recovery, fight, or flight. That could open up some interesting options with the Captain who doesn't know about the cargo, and the First Mate who's leading the smugglers."

Whereas if you disintegrate without me thinking about it, you might get a "The ship now has a 10' hole in it. What do you do?"

While I can (and do) respect the sentiment; using your specific example, would you have been any less prepared if you were just aware disintegrate was in their spell book, vice that they had specifically prepared that day? Especially given there is a very real chance they don't choose to use disintegrate for that purpose.

Also, in my experience, an encounter like that would have been drawn up by the DM before the session even started (and by extension, before their spells were prepared)

As a counter-point, (-especially- with readied actions.) If a player comes up with a clever use of their action that say results in their foe falling off a cliff/battlement/into a pit etc. If your creature avoids it is it because they truly would have acted that way? If they rush in and the gambit works... Is it because you decided it would be cinematic?

I personally would want it to work because I correctly read the encounter... Not because a DM can't resist the urge to save/sacrifice their minion (as whimsy takes them) And the only way to KNOW it succeeded or failed on its own merits, is for the DM to be unaware.

(*the aforementioned 'you' isn't meant to be specific to you personally)


For the record, I have never had a DM request to keep a copy of my character sheet, but I have 0 problem with them knowing things like skill ranks/ max hp / proficiencies / abilities/ etc. Or even reviewing it after level ups or whatever for accuracy. Its my paranoia about being metagamed against (Yes, I always make my paranoia check) even subconciously that makes me wary, and my wife echoed my sentiments when I asked her if it was just me...

I'm also rather surprised at how common it apparently is for the DM to keep a copy given my own experiences, and that could also be contributing to my viewpoint.

[Lance Tankmen]

I understand the big paranoia about DM vs players but as DM I don't feel like that's who I am. I'm a referee in some sense. I just like everything to be fair and if I don't know some factors they can lead to other players getting upset. So A buys something and a time comes to use it but B claims he also has said item and uses it as well to steal As thunder etc. Poor example but I prefer to not have any player clearly trying to play the one man hero or overshadow anot her player. I like when everyone has advantages and disadvantages that their team fills and or covers their disadvantages and they cover their teams.

[Safety Sword]

snip

Maybe your DMs have been a little more adversarial in their approach than I am.

I don't play D&D against my players, I play it with them on the other side of the DM screen.

I want the action to be epic, I want their tricks to work, I want the bad guys to react to counter common tactics to make them adapt...

I am in no way "against" the players.

[Pex]

You are welcome at my game any time. This is playing right people!

No, that's just his preference. I want to know the rules minutiae of my character because I enjoy the mechanics part of the game as much as the roleplay, and it helps determine tactics when I know exactly what my character can and cannot do. I'm playing right just as much as he is.

[Safety Sword]

No, that's just his preference. I want to know the rules minutiae of my character because I enjoy the mechanics part of the game as much as the roleplay, and it helps determine tactics when I know exactly what my character can and cannot do. I'm playing right just as much as he is.

As you correctly point out there is no wrong way to play. I didn't say every other way was wrong.

I do enjoy a player who trusts that the DM is going to take care of the mechanics so that they can focus on their character.

Horses for courses.

[dj543210]

My DMs never keep my character sheets, although I'm the kind of guy who hesitates to use an ability not already in the main game rules even if the DM allows me to.

[Knaight]

Dropbox and electronic sheets. Same idea though.

It's not a bad alternate method, and if my group wasn't mostly people who spent enough time on a computer for work/school reasons to not want to do so during roleplaying* we might do the same.

*A group I definitely fit in.

[Quintessence]

I have a DM who literally builds encounters around screwing over my spell list, so personally I am not a fan of it...

[pwykersotz]

While I can (and do) respect the sentiment; using your specific example, would you have been any less prepared if you were just aware disintegrate was in their spell book, vice that they had specifically prepared that day? Especially given there is a very real chance they don't choose to use disintegrate for that purpose.

Also, in my experience, an encounter like that would have been drawn up by the DM before the session even started (and by extension, before their spells were prepared)

As a counter-point, (-especially- with readied actions.) If a player comes up with a clever use of their action that say results in their foe falling off a cliff/battlement/into a pit etc. If your creature avoids it is it because they truly would have acted that way? If they rush in and the gambit works... Is it because you decided it would be cinematic?

I personally would want it to work because I correctly read the encounter... Not because a DM can't resist the urge to save/sacrifice their minion (as whimsy takes them) And the only way to KNOW it succeeded or failed on its own merits, is for the DM to be unaware.

(*the aforementioned 'you' isn't meant to be specific to you personally)


For the record, I have never had a DM request to keep a copy of my character sheet, but I have 0 problem with them knowing things like skill ranks/ max hp / proficiencies / abilities/ etc. Or even reviewing it after level ups or whatever for accuracy. Its my paranoia about being metagamed against (Yes, I always make my paranoia check) even subconciously that makes me wary, and my wife echoed my sentiments when I asked her if it was just me...

I'm also rather surprised at how common it apparently is for the DM to keep a copy given my own experiences, and that could also be contributing to my viewpoint.

My players seldom change their spell lists radically, so that isn't usually a consideration for me. You are right, a lot of this is worldbuilding between sessions. I guess my take is that I find it easier to create complicated situations when I have pieces to inspire me. Regardless of how unlikely they are to be used, they create chain reactions in my brain that flesh out a lot of extra detail that often finds its way into play.

As for your counterpoint, I think it's an excellent one now that I think about it a little more. You're right, unless the DM decided before you readied that a monster would take a particular action next turn, he can't help but metagame because now he knows exactly what's coming. I don't have much to say because it has never been something considered at my tables.

Great, now I have to think of a hyperflexible subsystem to account for enemy choices in the face of readied actions that will probably never see the light of day because that sounds amazingly fun to try and design. You jerk. :smalltongue:

[JakOfAllTirades]

I as a DM have I guess you could say trust issue's, So I have a copy of my players sheets. One of the players after our last session voiced how he doesn't like that I have their PC sheets to another player who informed me of it. The player said and I vaguely quote " I don't like how the DM can decide what our characters have and don't have" . To be perfectly fair same player is the one I had to remind he used an ability that had one use per short/long rest. Because I actually keep track of those things. So my question to you fellow DM's do you have a copy of your PC sheets and players do you actually care if your DM has a copy ???

This doesn't look like a "trust issue" nearly as much as a "cheating player" issue. In other words, he's given you good reason not to trust him, and sufficient reason not to have him at your table at all.

[Kane0]

As a player I hold the sheets for myself and two other party members, because they can't be trusted to bring it themselves and aren't savvy enough to level up or shop to the degree of optimization as the others. The DM of that game asks for copies every 2-3 levels in order to keep everything in check and calibrate his side of the DM screen properly.

As a DM i usually don't ask for sheets since I have a pretty solid memory of what my players have and what they can do (in most cases surpassing the player in question). I sometimes get left with the sheets anyway to keep them from getting lost and will occasionally peruse through them in case I missed anything while prepping DM stuff. I usually don't cater specifically to classes/abilities unless it ties in with the world/story, feels a little too gamey to me sometimes but I do make sure what I give out is useful and entertaining, if not exactly what the players wanted.

[DwarvenGM]

As a counter-point, (-especially- with readied actions.) If a player comes up with a clever use of their action that say results in their foe falling off a cliff/battlement/into a pit etc. If your creature avoids it is it because they truly would have acted that way? If they rush in and the gambit works... Is it because you decided it would be cinematic?

I personally would want it to work because I correctly read the encounter... Not because a DM can't resist the urge to save/sacrifice their minion (as whimsy takes them) And the only way to KNOW it succeeded or failed on its own merits, is for the DM to be unaware.

(*the aforementioned 'you' isn't meant to be specific to you personally)


Myself and those I play with all have a basic rule when dming "know thy creatures" basically have the creature act as it would no matter what. If a character aims a bow at a group of enemies and readys an attack orcs will charge in oozes will drink in mindlessly, goblins may you a range weapon then retreat to cover, a dark elf may charge the person aiming the bow, because how dare a lesser race threaten them.

If the readied action is unnoticeable by the creature they'll act as I originally planned them to. Goblins will always be cunning gnolls will move together in pack mentality and so on. So it's never an issue for my groups.

[Joe the Rat]

Being primarily VTT, the DM having access is par for the course.
I've got no problem with the DM having access to or copies of the character sheets (nay, I expect it), or having the Most Common Numbers (race/class/level, AC, PP, HP max, spell/ability DCs). But not having access to my own character off-time would be off-putting.

As for the initial reason "DM says what you do or don't have" doesn't require the character sheet. The DM can be a donkeysock with or without. This just sounds like a trust issue.


On that note, i have since become leery of e-sheets. I was once playing a campaign on roll20 where the dm decided, without telling anyone, that he had found a way better character sheet UI, and decided to surprise us with the 'upgrade'...... all data for all characters was lost.The "Shaped" sheet? Yeah, I thought is was pretty nice, and was a better interface for our not-mastering-the-8-page-sheet players. But...
1) I tested the transfer process before making the change (and noted what broke), and
2) I asked my players if they liked the upgrade. I think they are somewhere between "change-averse" and "in love with form complexity and lookups (DCC and Rolemaster players)," as they were no-go with it.

Unless it was the "official" sheet. That one is a flutterbuck to switch to.

[Syll]

The "Shaped" sheet? Yeah, I thought is was pretty nice, and was a better interface for our not-mastering-the-8-page-sheet players. But...
1) I tested the transfer process before making the change (and noted what broke), and
2) I asked my players if they liked the upgrade. I think they are somewhere between "change-averse" and "in love with form complexity and lookups (DCC and Rolemaster players)," as they were no-go with it.

Unless it was the "official" sheet. That one is a flutterbuck to switch to.

I don't know the name of it, but it's big selling point was that you could drag and drop items/spells from a built-in database into your sheet. A notable problem being it wasn't actually a complete database (it was missing some lvl 1 spells from the phb, for instance)

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, that's the official sheet. It only has the SRD spells.
If you're starting a game, it's nice. If you are switching a game in process... you just set the sheet to access the SRD anyway, then copy-paste everything over manually. It's easier.

[Syll]

In other words, he's given you good reason not to trust him, and sufficient reason not to have him at your table at all.

A second hand remark, taken out of context of a conversation he wasn't present for qualifies as "sufficient reason" to boot him?

An attitude like that would certainly give me trust issues as a player.


Great, now I have to think of a hyperflexible subsystem to account for enemy choices in the face of readied actions that will probably never see the light of day because that sounds amazingly fun to try and design. You jerk. :smalltongue:

Excellent. My master plan is all coming together...

[weckar]

If only so the DM can make rolls for the players that they shouldn't know about, like disease checks and stuff. Poison too, maybe.

[Shining Wrath]

We play even when one or two are absent. Therefore I have copies of all character sheets and ask them to be posted online, so someone else can run a PC in the player's absence.

I can't imagine anyone thinking they should ever have a secret from the DM. There's no way to pull something out of your pocket and say "I bought this in the last town, and it's exactly what I need to solve this encounter!".

If players can keep secrets from the DM (s)he'll start planning encounters assuming the party may be capable of stuff (s)he doesn't know about - which sooner or later means TPK when the party doesn't have an ace in the hole.

[JAL_1138]

I have a DM who literally builds encounters around screwing over my spell list, so personally I am not a fan of it...

The thing is, anything you can do by keeping your spell list secret, you can only do once if they're determined to screw you over in that way. They can always shut the particular spell or strategy down in subsequent encounters. I consider it bad form for a DM to do this constantly (to always counter every spell or ability the party has).

There's a balance point between insufficiently considering the PCs' abilities and overtailoring encounters. It's not fun for the players to make encounters specifically tailored to counter every trick the PCs have--players want a chance to use their character abilities, and it's immersion breaking to only encounter enemies designed with your exact strengths and weaknesses in mind. On the other hand, you typically shouldn't build an encounter way out of the PCs' capabilities unless it's mandated by plausibility--if the wizard only takes fire spells and goes to the Plane of Fire, the wizard should be in trouble, and it's on them, but if they're going about normal business on the Prime Material, they really shouldn't only encounter fireproof enemies. If none of the PCs can cast Plane Shift, Plane Shift shouldn't be the only way to progress forward--maybe they can find a portal or a way onto the Infinite Staircase if they go looking for it. You don't want to end up saying "oops, you picked the wrong class, guess the campaign's over." And yet it's also immersion-breaking the other way--if the PCs always have the exact ability they need at all times, like the world has thoroughly rearranged itself to prevent them from ever facing a challenge they didn't prepare for or aren't perfectly-suited for.

Intelligent enemies can sometimes cotton to a particular tactic the PCs spam relentlessly if they would logically build a reputation for it and it would make sense for them to know about--e.g., if your shadowrunner team has used gas weapons really effectively in every run against the megacorps thus far, they'll likely eventually catch on and start issuing gas masks, because it'd really be kind of weird if they didn't. Not every corp will--some will weigh the cost against the likelihood of you hitting them and decide it's not worth the money; others may not be in the loop and not know; others may only give the masks to guards on critical projects but not other areas. In D&D, wizards' capabilities can be pretty well-known depending on the setting, so some might be really prepared to shut down wizards--but even so, some will not. It has to make sense for the particular circumstances.

But if the DM actually has a problem with paticular spells, abilities, or strategies, the answer is to talk with the table about whether it might be broken enough to houserule out rather than to keep designing every encounter around it.

[Socratov]

The thing is, anything you can do by keeping your spell list secret, you can only do once if they're determined to screw you over in that way. They can always shut the particular spell or strategy down in subsequent encounters. I consider it bad form for a DM to do this constantly (to always counter every spell or ability the party has).

There's a balance point between insufficiently considering the PCs' abilities and overtailoring encounters. It's not fun for the players to make encounters specifically tailored to counter every trick the PCs have--players want a chance to use their character abilities, and it's immersion breaking to only encounter enemies designed with your exact strengths and weaknesses in mind. On the other hand, you typically shouldn't build an encounter way out of the PCs' capabilities unless it's mandated by plausibility--if the wizard only takes fire spells and goes to the Plane of Fire, the wizard should be in trouble, and it's on them, but if they're going about normal business on the Prime Material, they really shouldn't only encounter fireproof enemies. If none of the PCs can cast Plane Shift, Plane Shift shouldn't be the only way to progress forward--maybe they can find a portal or a way onto the Infinite Staircase if they go looking for it. You don't want to end up saying "oops, you picked the wrong class, guess the campaign's over." And yet it's also immersion-breaking the other way--if the PCs always have the exact ability they need at all times, like the world has thoroughly rearranged itself to prevent them from ever facing a challenge they didn't prepare for or aren't perfectly-suited for.

Intelligent enemies can sometimes cotton to a particular tactic the PCs spam relentlessly if they would logically build a reputation for it and it would make sense for them to know about--e.g., if your shadowrunner team has used gas weapons really effectively in every run against the megacorps thus far, they'll likely eventually catch on and start issuing gas masks, because it'd really be kind of weird if they didn't. Not every corp will--some will weigh the cost against the likelihood of you hitting them and decide it's not worth the money; others may not be in the loop and not know; others may only give the masks to guards on critical projects but not other areas. In D&D, wizards' capabilities can be pretty well-known depending on the setting, so some might be really prepared to shut down wizards--but even so, some will not. It has to make sense for the particular circumstances.

But if the DM actually has a problem with paticular spells, abilities, or strategies, the answer is to talk with the table about whether it might be broken enough to houserule out rather than to keep designing every encounter around it.
That depends, if you have a flexible caster like druid, cleric or wizard, you can change your spells up. There is no way for the DM to counteract everyhting wihtout outright banning all spells and spellcasters. By preparing a different list (and having different lists prepared so switching out spells is easier, you can keep secret which spells you have available at that very moment.

A bigger question is why the DM wants to counter your spelllist. Is it to challenge you more? Maybe it is to give other players the chance to shine as they save the day. Maybe it's to curb your optimizationlevels to bring it more in line with the rest of the group. Mabye Quintessence should ask why the DM keeps doing that. I hardly think it would be out of malice or for personal reasons.

[Syll]

The thing is, anything you can do by keeping your spell list secret, you can only do once if they're determined to screw you over in that way. They can always shut the particular spell or strategy down in subsequent encounters

I completely agree with everything you said, except for a caveat to the bit I quoted.

If you have more than one strategy, or you rotate through a couple different ones (by changing what you have prepared) then the same tricks can keep working.... unless of course the DM is designing encounters to specifically shut down every good idea you've ever had, which is its own set of issues.