OOTS #1052 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[JumboWheat01]

Being high level does indeed open up a new can of worms. I wonder what level they're currently sitting at...

[Kish]

Considering Vaarsuvius has cast an eighth-level spell once, I'd guess 16. Access to 9th-level spells is enough of a big deal that I'll be surprised if it goes unheralded when Rich decides Vaarsuvius/Resurrected-Durkon are 17.

[KorvinStarmast]

This was a fun strip, complete with some slapstick humor at the end.

Particularly liked the new term: windowfolk. Blackwing as comic relief played well in this one.

[Garwain]

Nice callback to their first dungeon adventure. Although, now the OoTS is high level, they are on quest to save the world... As the saying goes: "low level, little worries".
But I admit that casually taking out 4 frost giants at once is definitely one of the upsides.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Nice! Blackwing, Vaarsuvius and Hailey make for a good "Three Stooges" comedy trio.

[Yxylu]

Are those Windowfolk we see in panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like the thought that Blackwing always knows where Vaarsuvius is because he constantly is hearing their voice. Haley is too stealthy for her own good.

[Sianthus]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.

[Nightcanon]

I love the smell of full attack/ greater invisibility/ sneak attack in the morning.

Kind of how I expected this panel to play out, but the windowfolk gag was the unexpected cherry on the top.

[Lostboy]

Hmm, are High-Elevation Windowfolk in the Monster Manual? I imagine those must be like a bird's version of the boogeyman, or a scary tale told around birdy campfires.

"The sparrow thought she was out of danger, then BAM! And the next day, all they found was a tuft of feathers and a shard of glass..."

[HUMVEE Driver]

For the win, Haley! I wasn't that surprised. Roy wasn't either. Suck it, Frost Giants! The raven's line was great. :)

Putting all those buff spells on Haley was brilliant. Again, V owns the battlefield. Good for him/her. Every time, magic will win the day.

[Nightcanon]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.

D&D has something of a tradition (at least, once it stopped referring to lizardmen etc) of humanoids-who-share-characteristics-with-Earth-animals being, for example Lizardfolk, Catfolk, Zebrafolk etc. Invisible humanoids who are flown into by distracted birds are thus being referred to as Windowfolk (and high-elevation because they are high up).

[Kish]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.
Blackwing is saying that birds run into perfectly transparent high-up windows. Haley is a humanoid perfectly transparent window--thus, a windowfolk.

[Idiotic_Bird]

OMG I feel so early

Also XD, typical V

[Laurana]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.

I'm relieved I'm not alone.


D&D has something of a tradition (at least, once it stopped referring to lizardmen etc) of humanoids-who-share-characteristics-with-Earth-animals being, for example Lizardfolk, Catfolk, Zebrafolk etc. Invisible humanoids who are flown into by distracted birds are thus being referred to as Windowfolk (and high-elevation because they are high up).

Thanks to you and Kish for the explanation:smallsmile:

Now that I get it, it's fun!:smallbiggrin:

[declinator]

Are those Windowfolk we see in panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)?

Nice call-back. I'm sure Blackwing saw through this immediately.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah, yes. Blackwing flying into Haley makes for an excellent difference in kind from the dramatic tension the past few strips have been building up.


Nice! Blackwing, Vaarsuvius and Hailey make for a good "Three Stooges" comedy trio.
So...which one's the "driver," which the "navigator," and which the only sane woman/elf/bird? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComicTrio)

[Carl]

Hahaha. Oh poor blackwing. Also a nice little oblique reference to how at the gaming table people who's characters are invisible won't actually run into each other from what i hear.

[Emperor Time]

If this keeps up, then there shouldn't be any more problems from this encounter which is great.

[Peelee]

The little licks of flame on the giants is a nice touch.

[hamishspence]

The little licks of flame on the giants is a nice touch.

I didn't notice those on the first look - they do look good.

[Morquard]

Windowfolk. I love it.

[Syncrogti]

Love the art showing Haley as invisible. And blackwing.

[War-Wren]

Hahaha. Oh poor blackwing. Also a nice little oblique reference to how at the gaming table people who's characters are invisible won't actually run into each other from what i hear.

Ha! It's true. It's amazing how everyone knows where everyone is, even while invisible... Mind you, the Giant did play with that one a little (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html) in the early days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0089.html) :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

Teamwork! Also, foreshadowing! Also, don't turn into a window if you don't want birds to crash into you seems like it's advice that's ...
transparently obvious.

This is one of the times where I saw the title and said "Yep. I know what that means." V bringing the Fireball.

[maxon]

Those pesky high elevation window folk...

[Shining Wrath]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.

Birds fly into windows because they can't see them in time. Blackwing can't see Haley at all, and flew into her.


The little licks of flame on the giants is a nice touch.

OTOH, the female giant at our right (stage left) appears to take the fatal arrow in the back of the right ear.

[Kish]

It would have been disappointing had Vaarsuvius decided for some weird reason to shelve the blasting spells now, just as they meet enemies with a specific vulnerability to fire.

[Ron Miel]

Anyone else singing "Kill the Wizard" to Wagner?

[Keltest]

It would have been disappointing had Vaarsuvius decided for some weird reason to shelve the blasting spells now, just as they meet enemies with a specific vulnerability to fire.

What has V done that would make you think they are shelving their blasting spells?

[arrowed]

Yay, teamwork! This probably answers all the analysis on whether V can kill a giant with one fireball. How long is Passage Pass though, and how long can Haley and V keep up the rain of fire and pointy death?

[Anarion]

That was very unfair of Haley. V has made excellent use of invisibility on camera and wasn't giving away their position via talking. Still, Blackwing delivers on the comedy.

[Quild]

The little licks of flame on the giants is a nice touch.

Shouldn't it be a fire touch? :smallconfused:



What has V done that would make you think they are shelving their blasting spells?


Maybe this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html

[Toper]

The slapstick was a bit too wacky here for me, but sometimes I guess you just need a punchline.


Anyone else singing "Kill the Wizard" to Wagner?
Ha, that's pretty good.

[FlawedParadigm]

I wonder what the longest period of non-trance time V has ever been silent for amounts to...

[Kish]

What has V done that would make you think they are shelving their blasting spells?
Nothing at all. I can't imagine why anyone would think that.

[Sakgeres]

Did anyone mentioned that the previous page was half a comic? And it wasnt completed with this update?

[Kish]

You mean a page and a half, right?

If you took that as some kind of implied promise that the next one would also be a page and a half, or alternately a warning that the next one would be just half a page, well, it wasn't. It's something Rich does fairly regularly; each strip is at least one page but if the strip he wants to write won't fit into one page, then he draws more.

[Sakgeres]

You mean a page and a half, right?

If you took that as some kind of implied promise that the next one would also be a page and a half, or alternately a warning that the next one would be just half a page, well, it wasn't. It's something Rich does fairly regularly; each strip is at least one page but if the strip he wants to write won't fit into one page, then he draws more.

Yea the page and a half. Not that, but how will that fit into the comic book printing? I've never seen the actual comic myself though. Maybe he puts in stuff to fill the blank space?

If I didn't remember wrongly, the past strips usually add to a whole number by the next or subsequent strip. I've always thought it was for the printing.

[Kish]

Sometimes he draws a half-sized bonus comic, sometimes he just puts some of the text he's writing about his development process and story decisions in that space.

[Peelee]

Yea the page and a half. Not that, but how will that fit into the comic book printing? I've never seen the actual comic myself though. Maybe he puts in stuff to fill the blank space?

Could be bonus half strip, could be area for commentary box, could be various other extras.

[davidbofinger]

Considering Vaarsuvius has cast an eighth-level spell once, I'd guess 16. Access to 9th-level spells is enough of a big deal that I'll be surprised if it goes unheralded when Rich decides Vaarsuvius/Resurrected-Durkon are 17.

Meteor Swarm would seem a very natural spell to cast in this circumstance. If Vaarsuvius doesn't, that might be seen as evidence in support of your theory, at least in a Bayesian sense. Even though there are other possible reasons, like not preparing it.

[Lkctgo]

Damn if you want to start Ragnarok so badly, just ask your giants to start rampaging through dwarven towns to give them their honourable death (and have the northern gods consciously allow the world to end).

[davidbofinger]

Are those Windowfolk we see in panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)?

Perhaps every panel of every comic is seen through a windowfolk. Which makes breaking the fourth wall particularly cruel.

[Shining Wrath]

If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.

Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW

Point conceded. Wish in the hands of Xykon would be a bad thing. OTOH, it's a common explanation for the Escape scene, which would give us a situation where it's not a spell, but it is an ability. I'm searching my memory but don't recall Rich ever showing us genii, who are the usual wish-granters. When V had access to 10th level spells Wish didn't make an appearance, unless that accounts for moving the Azure City fleet to safety.

I still think V isn't level 17 yet, though.

[littlebum2002]

Meteor Swarm would seem a very natural spell to cast in this circumstance. If Vaarsuvius doesn't, that might be seen as evidence in support of your theory, at least in a Bayesian sense. Even though there are other possible reasons, like not preparing it.

Relevant XKCD (https://xkcd.com/1132/)

[Darth Paul]

"Fired Giants".

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html
That'd be an odd conclusion to draw from that strip, since it shows the exact opposite.


If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.
Leveling to 17 and not choosing wish is hardly unbelievable. Wizards gain two spells automatically upon level-up. Typically these will be the highest-level spells they can cast, but that's not actually a given. They can choose to take lower-level spells. Specialist wizards must have one of these spells be of their specialization school. V's an evoker working mostly from the core books, so that basically means [Bugsby's] crushing hand or meteor swarm. That leaves her one spell, and there are other fantastic 9th-level spells besides wish.

I don't believe for a second that V's 17th level, but failure to cast wish at every opportunity is not a good reason.


Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW
Further implicit assumption: all spells are equally available to a wizard at level-up. Spells gained at level-up are meant to represent the fruit of ongoing research, after all, and while abstractly all spells are equally easy to research, concretely they may not be. A point to consider: V didn't take limited wish when she leveled up 14, even though it could have helped in her search for Haley.

That said, both wish and true resurrection exist as spells in OOTS. Characters have called them by name. That doesn't mean they'll ever be used. All it takes to believably keep wish out of a sorcerer's or wizard's hand is for them to not learn it. All it takes to keep a cleric from casting true resurrection is the proper motivation (like not wanting a person back), running out the limitations period (or modifying the limitations period so that it's easier to run out), or a dearth of diamonds.

[Jasdoif]

"I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.The 5,000XP attempting to cast wish costs tends to restrict its usability.

[khadgar567]

If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.


Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW
plus DM may rule to vogue and pull jerkass genie on that wish and its story so no wish ex machina until desperately needed

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since the limitations works out to a couple centuries by the time you can cast TR, that's not really a limit.

[zimmerwald1915]

The 5,000XP attempting to cast wish costs tends to restrict its usability.
V's already spending quite a lot of XP scribing scrolls. She might not want to dip even further into that pool, especially if she wants to level faster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html).

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Hamste]

Damn if you want to start Ragnarok so badly, just ask your giants to start rampaging through dwarven towns to give them their honourable death (and have the northern gods consciously allow the world to end).

That seems very unlikely for several reasons. The first is the dwarven +4 ac to versus giants with a high likelihood that they out number the giants (this is important as it means even though the giants out strength the vast majority of the dwarves even a level 3 adventurer might survive two rounds with a giant and during that time they probably get 1 shot in against the giants mediocre ac. The giants may have some of their own pc classes but it is hard to level up with those hd). The second reason is time, the dwarves would have to die very quickly so the problem doesn't get forced one way or another by the last gate either being saved or destroyed. Finally, they are giants and the dwarves live in relatively small tunnels if I remember correctly from Durkon's memories. Any attack on the dwarves would hit severe complications for the giants as they would have to figure our how to attack the dwarves in small tunnels that the dwarves have the defender's advantage in.

That would most likely be less a dwarven genocide and more of a giant culling.

It is also possible the frost giant god has a deal with Hel and the frost giants trying to weaken Hel by giving dwarves honourable deaths would break it (or be otherwise undesirable).

[Kish]

I'm also thrown by the implication that Thrym dictates what the northern gods as a group want.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Damn if you want to start Ragnarok so badly, just ask your giants to start rampaging through dwarven towns to give them their honourable death (and have the northern gods consciously allow the world to end).
My intuition tells me that frost giants rampaging through dwarven lands would make the dwarven clan heads less likely to agree with the demands of the frost giants' god.


If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.
If wish exists in the OotS-verse...it probably couldn't do that. Unless you can find an 8th-level or lower spell which can do that kind of thing, or do something silly like argue that not making that mistake is an affliction, it would qualify as "produc a greater effect" than those listed, which is explicitly called dangerous.
To say nothing of the XP cost, of course. An ECL 17 caster who overcame an EL 17 encounter solo would earn barely more XP than they spent.


OTOH, it's a common explanation for the Escape scene, which would give us a situation where it's not a spell, but it is an ability. I'm searching my memory but don't recall Rich ever showing us genii, who are the usual wish-granters.
I believe "wish exist[ing] [i]as a spell" (emphasis mine) was supposed to be contrasting it to "wish existing as an ability".


When V had access to 10th level spells Wish didn't make an appearance, unless that accounts for moving the Azure City fleet to safety.
No, that was "Epic Teleport" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html).

[Yxylu]

I'm searching my memory but don't recall Rich ever showing us genii, who are the usual wish-granters.

There's one in panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html).

[JoeyTheNeko]

it's good to see haley and V banter and show their bond. been a long time since it happened. anyone remember the last comic showing that?

[Snails]

The 5,000XP attempting to cast wish costs tends to restrict its usability.

Which would mean that if he just reached 17th, V could not even cast it. The flexibility of Wish is attractive, but it seems like a spell to put on a scroll for that extreme emergency. Eventually.

V would definitely want either Meteor Swarm or Crushing Hand.

V's optimal choice against Xykon or Greg would be Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm), which would tear down defenses sufficiently that Roy could potentially kill them solo.

[Kish]

The spell Wish does not conjure up a genie.

Baldur's Gate games should not be mistaken for accurate representations of D&D.

[Snails]

The Giant surely has had a specific plan on what level everyone will be for the Big Finale fight. IMO it seems extremely unlikely he would choose to have them achieve 17th level by then, simply because it does not add to the story. 7th and 8th level spells are quite sufficient in "wow" power. 9th level spells are more likely to prove a distraction to the audience than a benefit to character development arcs.

Mind you, I am certain that the Giant could pull off an excellent story with the Order at 17thish level. It just does not seem to me that he is leaning that way.

[zimmerwald1915]

The spell Wish does not conjure up a genie.
Well, it can, but casting wish to ask an efreeti for a wish seems . . . needlessly complicated.

[khadgar567]

The spell Wish does not conjure up a genie.

Baldur's Gate games should not be mistaken for accurate representations of D&D.
plus its wasting god damn opportunity use for something usefull like releasing belkar from his chains and teleporting him to some city so he can have a joly good time

[littlebum2002]

Well, it can, but casting wish to ask an efreeti for a wish seems . . . needlessly complicated.

I thought using Wish to summon an efreeti to get 3 more wishes is one of the ways you can break the game?

[Lombard]

Quick Haley, one more for the penta!

[zimmerwald1915]

I thought using Wish to summon an efreeti to get 3 more wishes is one of the ways you can break the game?
I guess, but why use wish when you can use, say, planar binding or a candle of invocation? Even gate costs less XP than wish.

[Lethologica]

Alternative/future title proposal: They Might Slay Giants

[Keltest]

I guess, but why use wish when you can use, say, planar binding or a candle of invocation? Even gate costs less XP than wish.

I think the standard method is to use your Wish spell to get a (full) Candle of Invocation, which you then use to start the wish cheese. One candle = 3 wishes, and you can use one of those three to wish for a new candle. Not that any DM would actually allow that to work.

[hroþila]

That said, both wish and true resurrection exist as spells in OOTS. Characters have called them by name.
That doesn't necessarily settle it. Redcloak had to research whether they were using psions in this setting, which implies he knew about them on a meta level before actually finding any info on them, and might have known of them even if they didn't actually exist as a class/form of magic. Might be the same with Wish and True Resurrection.

[littlebum2002]

I guess, but why use wish when you can use, say, planar binding or a candle of invocation? Even gate costs less XP than wish.


I think the standard method is to use your Wish spell to get a (full) Candle of Invocation, which you then use to start the wish cheese. One candle = 3 wishes, and you can use one of those three to wish for a new candle. Not that any DM would actually allow that to work.

Ahh, I remembered it incorrectly I guess. Plus, as a DM you could always just have the efreet twist the Wishes until the character decides they are no longer worth it.

[Kish]

The only evidence for the spells being removed from the setting is Rich commenting that he hates True Resurrection. He's also talked about why characters don't and won't use them (e.g., why the ancient black dragon didn't have her son True Resurrected); it has never been "because they don't exist."

That said, I think the chances of Vaarsuvius putting Wish in their spellbook anytime before around the last ten strips of the entire comic are negligible. Rich dedicatedly writes around the spells (and may have a minor character who has an obvious reason to not solve the plot for the Order, like the Oracle, use them).

[HandofShadows]

When a high level wizard is a distraction for a rogue to snipe four frost giants it's a scary party. Not only level, but coordination. :smallcool:

[Quibblicious]

Awesomeness!

Q

[zimmerwald1915]

it's good to see haley and V banter and show their bond. been a long time since it happened. anyone remember the last comic showing that?
AFAIK, the last sequence that showcased (but did not develop) Haley's and V's relationship was the slave-freeing montage in Bleedingham.

[Ridureyu]

How To Play A Rogue:

1. Spend 90% of the game doing 1d6+piffle damage.
2. Attempt to set up flanks, only for other melee party members to go, "cool, you got this" and walk out of melee.
3. Gain limited-use invisibility. Use it, do a bajillion in sneak-attack damage to one lowly minion.
4. Get in troble as other players accuse you of being overpowered, and threaten to quit.
5. Go back to doing 1d6+piffle damage.

[aurilee]

How To Play A Rogue:

1. Spend 90% of the game doing 1d6+piffle damage.
2. Attempt to set up flanks, only for other melee party members to go, "cool, you got this" and walk out of melee.
3. Gain limited-use invisibility. Use it, do a bajillion in sneak-attack damage to one lowly minion.
4. Get in troble as other players accuse you of being overpowered, and threaten to quit.
5. Go back to doing 1d6+piffle damage.

So true. So, so true.

Maybe throw in a little "briefly consider just multi-/dual-classing into a fighter" too.

In my experience there's also "spend an inordinate amount of time looking for poison/poison ingredients only to have your intended target succeed their fortitude save". Complaints about resource management ensue.

As for the actual strip though, good stuff! Blackwing is brilliant as usual and I like the idea of V. just continually talking while invisible so BW doesn't fly into him. ^_^

[Snails]

I guess, but why use wish when you can use, say, planar binding or a candle of invocation? Even gate costs less XP than wish.

The serious answer is that you cannot rely on a Wish that you are not casting.

To varying degrees, it was commonly assumed by the implicit Gaming Table Contract that stuff in the PHB (or "Player's Section" or "Character Creation Section") is generally available to the players, unless the DM says otherwise. That was never the case for the MM or DMG. Traditionally.

Some modern players have decided "of course you should assume that all SRD material is available" in Gaming Table Contract. Thus the assertions that there are Efreet always available to be exploited for Wishes, with no negative consequences.

I, for one, have never gamed at a table where such assumptions were true. Maybe other people have.

If my character wants a Wish, the surest way to get one is to be or find a high enough level arcane caster. There are other possible means, but they are much less reliable. And trying to construct an infinite power loop on unreliable means can fail spectacularly, obviously.

[Shining Wrath]

There's one in panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html).

It didn't grant her wish for a job, though. :smallsmile:

[Goblin_Priest]

Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW

Plus: Wish, albeit quite powerful, is nowhere near as powerful as too many people make it to be. Unless you have a very, very lenient DM. There are a a few very strong lvl9 choices (such as Time Stop), so taking Wish is not necessarily a given.

[IDrankWHAT]

Alternative/future title proposal: They Might Slay Giants

With the first few panels I believe a rewrite of They WILL Slay Giants is in order! :smalltongue:

[IDrankWHAT]

At first I couldn't figure out what was killing the giants, (I hadn't looked at that whole panel yet) then I flashbacked to Pointy Death Incarnate LOL

[Kantaki]

High altitude windowfolk is my new favourite blackwingism.
That advanced stealth dinosaur does with words what his master does with spells.

[Lheticus]

D&D has something of a tradition (at least, once it stopped referring to lizardmen etc) of humanoids-who-share-characteristics-with-Earth-animals being, for example Lizardfolk, Catfolk, Zebrafolk etc. Invisible humanoids who are flown into by distracted birds are thus being referred to as Windowfolk (and high-elevation because they are high up).

LOL, those old Windex commercials just popped into my head.


Baldur's Gate games should not be mistaken for accurate representations of D&D.

Someone should sig this. Not me, I'm not enough into D&D games.

[Throknor]

If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.

Just want to throw this in: it wouldn't be that useful if the Wish did this by turning the Mechane into a bunch of Frost Giants that looked like them. Except for the difference of being in the air plummeting to the ground in a parabolic arc as gravity asserts itself, interspersed with crew members and cargo.

Wishes are worse than Oracles in needing to be well thought out and worded.

Though I looked up the 3.5 Wish and it can't do anything close to either of those. It would be simpler to do a Mass Suggestion, but I doubt V could cast enough of it to cover all of the Giants. Maybe that would be possible, but it seems unlikely.

[ti'esar]

Well, it looks like these giants aren't going to be much more than a speed bump.

(At least so far...)

[Kish]

Indeed, I'm wondering if the primary purpose of this encounter is exactly what Haley said: to showcase that the Order has grown up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html) just a tidge.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It didn't grant her wish for a job, though. :smallsmile:

A standard Djinn can't grant wishes. Only a Noble Djinni has that ability.

Actually, I can't remember if Marids or Dao have that ability either.

[JCAll]

Well, it can, but casting wish to ask an efreeti for a wish seems . . . needlessly complicated.

Needlessly complicated you say? I'm sure Nale could find a way to use that.

[RblDiver]

Are those Windowfolk we see in panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)?

Nope, I think those'd be Glassfolk. IIRC, he sliced his hand on a broken glass, so...

[GreatWyrmGold]

The spell Wish does not conjure up a genie.
I believe the original point was more along the lines of "Genies grant wishes, therefore if genies exist, wishes do as well."


I think the standard method is to use your Wish spell to get a (full) Candle of Invocation, which you then use to start the wish cheese. One candle = 3 wishes, and you can use one of those three to wish for a new candle. Not that any DM would actually allow that to work.
I would.
...Oh, you mean work as intended? Heck no.


To varying degrees, it was commonly assumed by the implicit Gaming Table Contract that stuff in the PHB (or "Player's Section" or "Character Creation Section") is generally available to the players, unless the DM says otherwise. That was never the case for the MM or DMG. Traditionally.
Some modern players have decided "of course you should assume that all SRD material is available" in Gaming Table Contract. Thus the assertions that there are Efreet always available to be exploited for Wishes, with no negative consequences.
I've never heard of any such "Gaming Table Contract". At my tables, pretty much anything in the core rulebook is fine unless stated otherwise (or if it would be stupid).

[KishouTheBadger]

Personally I saw the Windowfolk joke as a reference to Windex and the crows that would hit the clean windows.

Funny stuff here, Giant.

[Keltest]

The serious answer is that you cannot rely on a Wish that you are not casting.

To varying degrees, it was commonly assumed by the implicit Gaming Table Contract that stuff in the PHB (or "Player's Section" or "Character Creation Section") is generally available to the players, unless the DM says otherwise. That was never the case for the MM or DMG. Traditionally.

Some modern players have decided "of course you should assume that all SRD material is available" in Gaming Table Contract. Thus the assertions that there are Efreet always available to be exploited for Wishes, with no negative consequences.

I, for one, have never gamed at a table where such assumptions were true. Maybe other people have.

If my character wants a Wish, the surest way to get one is to be or find a high enough level arcane caster. There are other possible means, but they are much less reliable. And trying to construct an infinite power loop on unreliable means can fail spectacularly, obviously.

That kind of agreement tends to only be used in theorycrafting because there needs to be a degree of consistency.

[Doug Lampert]

If V has Wish and hasn't told Roy that's a bad thing. If V reached level 17 and didn't choose Wish that's almost unbelievable. Conclusion is that V is not yet level 17. "I wish that all those giants would mistake each other for the Mechane for the next 5 minutes" sounds like a useful thing to do.

Waste of 5,000 XP. If you're going to use wish to deal with the current problem, just wish for the Mechane (or just the party) to where you're going. Even limited wish from V could duplicate teleportation. Thus the failure of V to teleport means he doesn't like to spend XP as a casting component (or Rich isn't allowing a PC to take even limited wish).

If V is level 17 (very unlikely IMAO), and I were playing V, I wouldn't have wish. One of the two spells gained needs to be evocation. I'm not spending the other on a spell I won't be able to cast till I'm almost a third of the way to level 18, and that costs me all that progress if and when I do cast it.

Disjunction, Gate, Shapechange, one or more of those is gonna get the nod long before Wish.

[FlawedParadigm]

If V has learned lessons about versatility over flashy damage spells, I imagine the picks would be Shapechange and Time Stop - especially since they both proved rather useful last time V tried them.

[zimmerwald1915]

If V has learned lessons about versatility over flashy damage spells, I imagine the picks would be Shapechange and Time Stop - especially since they both proved rather useful last time V tried them.
Two transmutation spells? When her specialization mandates that one be an evocation spell? :smallwink:

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you're going to use wish to deal with the current problem, just wish for the Mechane (or just the party) to where you're going. Even limited wish from V could duplicate teleportation.

Impossible. The very first line of restrictions on Limited Wish states "Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." Teleportation is Conjuration, and thus barred for Vaarsuvius.

Edit, granted, the full Wish does allow you to use Greater Teleport, as it's 7th, but Limited Wish won't let V cast Teleport.

[goodpeople25]

Impossible. The very first line of restrictions on Limited Wish states "Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." Teleportation is Conjuration, and thus barred for Vaarsuvius.

Edit, granted, the full Wish does allow you to use Greater Teleport, as it's 7th, but Limited Wish won't let V cast Teleport.
And the third line of restrictions is "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school." Thus teleport.

[Fralex]

It really shouldn't bother me so much that flames are being colored backwards now (yellow on the outside instead of yellow in the center, where the hotter part is). It's like that xkcd comic about how if you hate someone, you teach them to recognize uneven kerning.

Sorry, it's probably just me getting bugged by this. I'll shut up now.

[foobar1969]

V is not 17th level yet. We'd know about it. 17 is a YUUUUGE milestone for full casters. You're pretty much required to throw a big party and show off your shiny new 9th level spell, like Redcloak did in #0826.

[toapat]

Um I know it's generally not funny once someone explains it to you but...

What does the punchline of "high elevation windowfolk" even mean? D:

I dun geddit. Me dumdum fighter.

certain species and any colorblind birds will fly into glass, because they dont perceive it and dont recognize it as solid at first,

[arrowed]

Regarding Wish and True Resurrection, what are Mr Burlew's views on the spell(s)? I'm a relative newcomer and a brief googling doesn't turn up any quotes or statements by him on the matter.

[Kish]

From the Index of the Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13861815#post13861815).

[arrowed]

Thanks, that explains it. :smallsmile: Actually, I'm kind of surprised there aren't more spells in existence that could be called plot-wrecking. I suppose some of them won't be in a world built around the assumption of their existence, and a lot of them can be rendered ineffective one way or the other, like how the gods' embargo prevents divinations from sniffing out the gates.

[factotum]

Thanks, that explains it. :smallsmile: Actually, I'm kind of surprised there aren't more spells in existence that could be called plot-wrecking.

Oh, there are definitely plot-wrecking spells if you're not careful. Let's say you want to create a story where your high-level characters are required to do some detective work in order to find where the Dungeon of Mysteriousness is. Party spellcaster: "I cast Legend Lore/Contact Other Plane, asking 'Where's this Dungeon of Mysteriousness, then?'". Bang goes your carefully-contrived detective story unless you're very devious with the answers!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Thanks, that explains it. :smallsmile: Actually, I'm kind of surprised there aren't more spells in existence that could be called plot-wrecking. I suppose some of them won't be in a world built around the assumption of their existence, and a lot of them can be rendered ineffective one way or the other, like how the gods' embargo prevents divinations from sniffing out the gates.
Well, any spell removes some possible plots while adding others. The problem comes in the ratio of the two; animate dead and related spells probably create more plots than they make obsolete, while speak with dead is probably the exact opposite.
To an extent, the same is true with technology, though technology is very likely to remove more plots than it adds. It's almost like the kind of obstacles that make for a good story are inconvenient in everyday life...

[Ron Miel]

It really shouldn't bother me so much that flames are being colored backwards now (yellow on the outside instead of yellow in the center, where the hotter part is).

A wizard did it.

[a1chemi]

And the third line of restrictions is "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school." Thus teleport.

The hull of the Mechane is covered in several castings of dimensional lock. Thus no teleport.

[pendell]

It really shouldn't bother me so much that flames are being colored backwards now (yellow on the outside instead of yellow in the center, where the hotter part is). It's like that xkcd comic about how if you hate someone, you teach them to recognize uneven kerning.

Sorry, it's probably just me getting bugged by this. I'll shut up now.

I'd noticed that , too. As Rich says "Guys, I went to art school!" :)

Still a lovely drawing, and an action-packed sequence which is quite good!

Hope Roy can work out that ranged attack so he can get in the fight too!

Punchline I can take or leave.

Hrmm... looks like if V and Haley are going to do this more often, they should practice formation flying. Real-life aviators are expected to keep formation even in conditions of terrible visibility such as clouds. Perhaps if they agree that Haley ALWAYS joins up to V's right, and Blackwing joins up on the left, they can deconflict and avoid this in the future.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey Watcher]

Are those Windowfolk we see in panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)?

Undead windowfolk, but yes.

Also, I really want some stats for windowfolk. Sounds like a great thing to put in one of the nuttier corners of the multiverse.

[Grey Watcher]

it's good to see haley and V banter and show their bond. been a long time since it happened. anyone remember the last comic showing that?

It's honestly one of the most stable relationships depicted in the comic and, as such, tends to fade into the background. Only thing I can recall that springs to mind (outside of prequel material) is "I room only with Miss Starshine."


It really shouldn't bother me so much that flames are being colored backwards now (yellow on the outside instead of yellow in the center, where the hotter part is). It's like that xkcd comic about how if you hate someone, you teach them to recognize uneven kerning.

Sorry, it's probably just me getting bugged by this. I'll shut up now.

If it helps, maybe the spell deliberately generates the heat on the edges (and spreads outwards) leaving the cooler (and therefore more orange) flames trailing in the middle.

[danielxcutter]

How To Play A Rogue:

1. Spend 90% of the game doing 1d6+piffle damage.
2. Attempt to set up flanks, only for other melee party members to go, "cool, you got this" and walk out of melee.
3. Gain limited-use invisibility. Use it, do a bajillion in sneak-attack damage to one lowly minion.
4. Get in troble as other players accuse you of being overpowered, and threaten to quit.
5. Go back to doing 1d6+piffle damage.

What about Arcane Trickster? Oh right, arcane caster levels. Of course it's powerful.

That being said, how good is Arcane Trickster at being both a caster and a rogue? Does it fill both roles at once, does it mix the two well into an unique one, or is it just a caster with sneak attack damage?

[Peelee]

Undead windowfolk, but yes.

Also, I really want some stats for windowfolk. Sounds like a great thing to put in one of the nuttier corners of the multiverse.

One of the MMs had a Stained Glass Golem, I believe. Delightful things to have in abandoned temples.

[Snails]

It's almost like the kind of obstacles that make for a good story are inconvenient in everyday life...

Well, yes, that is exactly true. Good writing involve creating plausible obstacles that making it impossible for the protagonist to move directly forward towards resolution, while always prodding the protagonist to keep moving.

Anything intrinsically "inconvenient" is potential fodder.

[KorvinStarmast]

Quick Haley, one more for the penta! If I told you I LoL'd, would you believe me? :smallbiggrin:


I've never heard of any such "Gaming Table Contract". At my tables, pretty much anything in the core rulebook is fine unless stated otherwise (or if it would be stupid). Social contract (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/22481/22566)is a well known element of RPG's. How formally or informally a given table establishes and adheres to a social contract will vary.

I have seen it described thusly (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/22484/22566):



"An agreement among the members of an organized society or between the governed and the government defining and limiting the rights and duties of each." {Originally from political philosophy, Rousseau}

It has since been usefully expanded into meaning "An implicit agreement among the members of a society to cooperate for social benefits," which applies in circumstances where there's not really a government/governed split (though a strong GM role might qualify...) A RPG group is a small society of its own, and has rules - explicit, implicit, assumed, badly assumed - about how people should act. That is its "social contract." That is what I think was being referred to as the Gaming Table Contract.

[Doug Lampert]

The hull of the Mechane is covered in several castings of dimensional lock. Thus no teleport.

That would be the one day per level spell that we KNOW was not cast on the ship prior to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)?

The one that didn't stop Lauren because she took it down in the same scene it is cast?

The one that is too small to cover the ship anyway?

When and where is this mentioned? And even were that so, what exactly stops it from being dispelled at any time if the Order wants to teleport?

And in any case, V does not have Limited Wish, because if V did then they'd have never been on the Mechane at this time, they'd have teleported and caught up long ago.

[Rogar Demonblud]

From the Index of the Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13861815#post13861815).

Kish out-banana'd the Banana!


One of the MMs had a Stained Glass Golem, I believe. Delightful things to have in abandoned temples.

Yeah, in AD&D 2E. I don't remember them being brought forward, probably because there was no way to make them half-dragon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When and where is this mentioned?

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Grey Wolf

[goodpeople25]

The hull of the Mechane is covered in several castings of dimensional lock. Thus no teleport.
Missing the point a bit there. 1 It was mainly that limited wish can access teleport. 2 the original post was that it V had limited wish they could just teleport there, how they do that has wiggle room (ie they could just retreat and leave the ship or never be in this situation at all) 3 don't know enough D&d to know how easy it is to just remove the spell but i think it would range from doable to super easy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) It isn't listed as dispelable by the caster, and as an 8th you'd need disjunction (a 9th) to take it out.

The other issue with using Limited Wish to emulate Teleport is that V needs to be 15th level to be able to bring the rest of the Order with her (18th if you include Mr Scruffy, 21st if you add Bloodfeast--as a familiar, Blackwing is counted with V). Oh, and there's a distinct possibility you'll end up 1d10*1d10% of your distance traveled in a random direction.

Using Wish to get Greater Teleport (the old Teleport Without Error) is a better choice, but not by much.

[Fralex]

If it helps, maybe the spell deliberately generates the heat on the edges (and spreads outwards) leaving the cooler (and therefore more orange) flames trailing in the middle.
A google image search for "fireball" (however reliable that is) yielded a couple real-looking photos where the yellow is on the edges (mostly the front edge). Maybe if the fireball is built around a core, like in a meteor, then the center wouldn't glow as much 'cause the front edge is getting all the oxygen? Eh, that's good enough for now.


Still a lovely drawing, and an action-packed sequence which is quite good!
That it is. I've always enjoyed seeing the way this comic's simple artstyle has evolved from the first page.

(I'm still totally going to find some way to mess with the RGB levels of the fire elemental miniatures so red and yellow switch places, though. It just looks weird when red and white are touching.)

[Goblin_Priest]

Two transmutation spells? When her specialization mandates that one be an evocation spell? :smallwink:

Time Stop + delayed blast fireball seems like something extremely fitting for V. Having 1d4+1 delayed blast fireballs for level times d6 damage, plus 1 normal fireball for 10d6 damage, all on the turn after the Time Stop ends, is certainly one way to deal massive amounts of damage and do a great display of evocation might. At level 17 a wizard can cast at least 3 level 7 spells. With a rod of metamagic (quickened) you could add in some more fireballs at the same time.

If you roll the minimum on Time Stop, you still get to use two lvl 7 slots to deal more damage than you would have with Meteor Swarm.

That being said, we haven't really seen V use all that many spells at all. Bigby's Cat Retrieving Hand, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Fireball, Chain Lightning, Exploding Runes... what else?

[Doug Lampert]

Not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) It isn't listed as dispelable by the caster, and as an 8th you'd need disjunction (a 9th) to take it out.

Nope, there's nothing about dispel magic or greater dispelling not working against higher level spells. The spell level is TOTALLY irrelevant except for a few spells that specifically aren't dispellable, and Dimensional lock totally lacks that wording.

It's all on caster level, and caster level checks, the spell level doesn't matter at all.

A straight level 3 dispel magic with a good roll on the caster level check takes it down (DC of 11 + V's caster level).
A greater dispelling has a much better chance, but there's absolutely no rule that dispel can't work against a level 8 spell.

[BlameCandida]

You mean a page and a half, right?

If you took that as some kind of implied promise that the next one would also be a page and a half, or alternately a warning that the next one would be just half a page, well, it wasn't. It's something Rich does fairly regularly; each strip is at least one page but if the strip he wants to write won't fit into one page, then he draws more.

In Book 1, the only half-page comic was strip 50, which was followed by bonus art. The same was done for strips 311 and 337 in Book 3. The first pair of page and a half comics was 428 & 429 in Book 3. These back to back pairs have continued to the present (Book 3: 442-3, Book 4: 500-1, 510-1, 628-9, 633-4, 638-9, 651-2, Book 5: 775-6, 816-7, 895-6, 915-6, 922-3, 933-4, Book 6: 979-80, 1012-3).

The only partial page comics since #337 to not have a reciprocal page are 430, 827, 839, 841, and the current comic. In these first four, the art was either rearranged or expanded to make a whole number of pages, and in the case of 827, bonus art was added within the comic.

[Kish]

If Vaarsuvius gained the ability to teleport by some manner (therefore defeating the entire purpose of Rich having Vaarsuvius bar Conjuration to begin with), the Order would certainly simply leave the Mechane and then teleport, not dispel the dimensional lock or say "welp, the ship's dimensionally locked, guess we're getting there the hard way."

[DaggerPen]

If Vaarsuvius gained the ability to teleport by some manner (therefore defeating the entire purpose of Rich having Vaarsuvius bar Conjuration to begin with), the Order would certainly simply leave the Mechane and then teleport, not dispel the dimensional lock or say "welp, the ship's dimensionally locked, guess we're getting there the hard way."

Not to mention that there was a plot point surrounding the Order needing to seek a device to let them teleport while in Cliffport, where dimensional anchor wouldn't have been an issue... I think it might have been relevant to the current plot, even... :smalltongue:

(I actually hadn't realized Limited Wish was sufficient for Teleport, though. I could have sworn I remembered it being ruled out in the MitD thread for some reason.)

[St Fan]

Mmmh... Frost Giants have slightly blueish speech bubbles. Interesting.

[Reboot]

(I actually hadn't realized Limited Wish was sufficient for Teleport, though. I could have sworn I remembered it being ruled out in the MitD thread for some reason.)

I think the problem with the MitD's "ESCAPE" teleport was that just about every 3.5 Teleport spell is either "Self", "Self+unliving matter" or "Self+Others". And the Great Beast In Shadow didn't go anywhere.

[factotum]

I think the problem with the MitD's "ESCAPE" teleport was that just about every 3.5 Teleport spell is either "Self", "Self+unliving matter" or "Self+Others". And the Great Beast In Shadow didn't go anywhere.

Some sort of house-ruled instantaneous Teleport Circle, maybe?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(I actually hadn't realized Limited Wish was sufficient for Teleport, though. I could have sworn I remembered it being ruled out in the MitD thread for some reason.)

Ummm... no, not to the best of my knowledge. Can't think of any suggestions that can cast Limited Wish, though. Even noble genies (CR 8) have full Wish.


I think the problem with the MitD's "ESCAPE" teleport was that just about every 3.5 Teleport spell is either "Self", "Self+unliving matter" or "Self+Others". And the Great Beast In Shadow didn't go anywhere.

V did cast a Dimensional anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) in his general direction just moments prior to the escape.

GW

[Jasdoif]

One of the MMs had a Stained Glass Golem, I believe.Monster Manual 2. (Which does mean it's stated as a 3.0 creature, but it shouldn't be difficult to convert; the only thing I see offhand is to remove the Intelligence score so they're mindless, as described)


Using Wish to get Greater Teleport (the old Teleport Without Error) is a better choice, but not by much.If wish is available, why go that particular route with it? As opposed to.... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Social contract (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/22481/22566)is a well known element of RPG's. How formally or informally a given table establishes and adheres to a social contract will vary.
I have seen it described thusly (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/22484/22566):
-snip-
That is what I think was being referred to as the Gaming Table Contract.
Just as different societies have different societal contracts (or so Rousseau would surely say), different gaming tables have different gaming-table contracts. Saying that a given passage is in all of them is as silly as saying that all societies obey certain rules.

[Keltest]

Just as different societies have different societal contracts (or so Rousseau would surely say), different gaming tables have different gaming-table contracts. Saying that a given passage is in all of them is as silly as saying that all societies obey certain rules.

As the names suggest, the Player's Handbook was information generally meant to be available to the players, the Dungeon Master's Guide was meant to be available to the DM, and the Monster Manual was in between. Certainly they were originally written with that direction in mind way back in the early edition days, but the general availability of them as well as the development of the internet makes actually restricting access to them in the modern days utterly impractical.

[8BitNinja]

Now I can say

Empathic link now? Back in my day we called it failing to keep your mouth shut.

[dtilque]

That being said, we haven't really seen V use all that many spells at all. Bigby's Cat Retrieving Hand, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Fireball, Chain Lightning, Exploding Runes... what else?

Actually, there's lots more. There's a thread in the forum titled "Class and Level Geekery" with a number and subtitle. In its second article, there is all kinds of info about the characters, including a list of spells that V has cast with links.

PS It's Bugsby's Cat Retrieval Hand. Sometimes I wish I had it myself. It's the most useful spell in the list.

[factotum]

PS It's Bugsby's Cat Retrieval Hand. Sometimes I wish I had it myself. It's the most useful spell in the list.

I have a feeling your cat would probably disagree. :smallsmile:

[Reboot]

V did cast a Dimensional anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) in his general direction just moments prior to the escape.

Wouldn't a (successful) anchoring of the caster mean the spell fizzled rather than teleporting everyone but the caster? Also, since the MitD was in the cage, surely the cage would have been hit? (and it wasn't green)

Full Wish, as pointed out by Jasdoif, is probably more likely.

[Kish]

Dimensional anchor isn't dimensional lock. The latter is eighth level and affects an area, but the former is fourth level and affects one creature or object; the cage being unable to teleport would do nothing relevant. If the creature was anchored he was presumably green under the darkness.

As for whether an anchored creature teleporting themself and two other unanchored creatures would result in "the other two creatures go, the caster does not" or "no one goes anywhere," as far as I can tell that's up to writer interpretation.

[The MunchKING]

Implicit assumption: Wish exists as a spell in OotS. Given Rich's views on True Resurrection, that is not a given.

GW

I'm pretty sure it not only DOES exist, Spliced V had it, as the lower-plains guys had to tell her she couldn't cast Cleric spells, even with a Wish or Limited Wish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). Which would be pointless in-universe if Wish didn't exist, or V wasn't going to have access to it even if it did. Although given that was before V accepted the powers, it might have been also to keep her from making plans based on Clerical powers she wouldn't have even if none of the spliced souls DID have Wish...

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure it not only DOES exist, Spliced V had it, as the lower-plains guys had to tell her she couldn't cast Cleric spells, even with a Wish or Limited Wish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). Which would be pointless in-universe if Wish didn't exist, or V wasn't going to have access to it even if it did. Although given that was before V accepted the powers, it might have been also to keep her from making plans based on Clerical powers she wouldn't have even if none of the spliced souls DID have Wish...

The Giant may view it similarly to True Resurrection, though.


True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist .... I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

[Kish]

As I said: I think the spells exist.

I think Rich will continue to write around them, unless casting one of them is a significant plot point with a logical "this is why it won't be repeated" tag.

What the fiends said, implying that the splices would give Vaarsuvius access to Wish or Limited Wish, is indeed significant to "do they exist in the world?"; I think the fact that Spliced-Vaarsuvius never actually cast either one is even more significant to "how likely are they to show up?"

[factotum]

I think the fact that Spliced-Vaarsuvius never actually cast either one is even more significant to "how likely are they to show up?"

He probably didn't do anything while spliced that a Wish would have been useful for. Most of the high-powered stuff he did was Epic anyway, and thus beyond what a 9th-level spell could provide.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just as different societies have different societal contracts (or so Rousseau would surely say), different gaming tables have different gaming-table contracts. Saying that a given passage is in all of them is as silly as saying that all societies obey certain rules. If you had bothered to read the link, you would find that each gaming table will establish its own social contract, as deemed necessary. Most would probably be informally established as the style of play and the norms of that table form.

See also Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing in small group dynamics theory. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development)

Gaming tables where RPG's are played are a small group dynamics in action. Rich harnesses some of his understanding of small group dynamics as he tells the story of OoTS.

[dtilque]

I have a feeling your cat would probably disagree. :smallsmile:

Indubitably. I'd mostly use it to get her in the carrier for vet visits.

I have to admit that having Fireball to use on SUVs/pickups that pass too close when I'm on my bike would be most satisfying. Ditto for any coal rollers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal).

[danielxcutter]

Indubitably. I'd mostly use it to get her in the carrier for vet visits.

I have to admit that having Fireball to use on SUVs/pickups that pass too close when I'm on my bike would be most satisfying. Ditto for any coal rollers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal).

Blasting them with a fireball spell might be a little overkill. Using a shatter spell on the windows, however... Also, repel metal might be fun, as well as taking out the tires with a scorching ray. For non-automobile related funzies, using mage hand to grab something halfway across the room would be useful(although that actually is the intended usage of the spell).

[goodpeople25]

Well personally I'd conjure up some turtle shells, banana peels or something to throw at them but maybe that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Using a shatter spell on the windows, however...

Given that Shatter "sunders a single solid nonmagical object" then I'd be more inclined to use it on the engine block, myself.

[danielxcutter]

Given that Shatter "sunders a single solid nonmagical object" then I'd be more inclined to use it on the engine block, myself.

I was intending on screwing them without actually being lethal. Using shatter on the engine block(whatever that is) might make the car explode and go up in flames - if the spell targets the whole thing, instead of a small part of it. Mind, that's not safe either - ever heard of "For Want Of A Nail"?

[8BitNinja]

Well personally I'd conjure up some turtle shells, banana peels or something to throw at them but maybe that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

Not sure if an intentional reference to Mario Kart, Super Mario Bros, or not a reference at all.

[Poeseph Salazar]

Not sure if an intentional reference to Mario Kart, Super Mario Bros, or not a reference at all.

I think given the mention of both banana peels and turtle shells in regards to attacking a fellow driver we may assume that it was an intentional Mario Kart reference.

Maybe a mention of casting lightning bolt to shrink the other vehicles on the road would have cleared confusion, though.

[wesleytj]

Haven't read through all the previous comments yet, so this has probably already been mentioned, but...

anybody else feel a visit from the IFCC coming in the next few panels?

[Rift_Wolf]

Haven't read through all the previous comments yet, so this has probably already been mentioned, but...

anybody else feel a visit from the IFCC coming in the next few panels?

My gut says no. While it would slow the party down, it wouldn't stop them altogether. And more importantly, doesn't stop them making a bad decision like the last time it happened. This is equivalent to the bug raiders in story importance. We might get some character moments, but nothing as plotty as IFCC.

[Hamste]

I was intending on screwing them without actually being lethal. Using shatter on the engine block(whatever that is) might make the car explode and go up in flames - if the spell targets the whole thing, instead of a small part of it. Mind, that's not safe either - ever heard of "For Want Of A Nail"?

Casting shatter on the windshield though is quite likely to hurt or kill someone as well. When windshields break they are kept together by lamination, this means the glass wouldn't just fall in on them (though that could cause an accident as well) it would shatter and be held together completely blocking their view. This would most likely lead to an accident where they most likely are hit while they freak out or they accidentally hit the bike as they try to get to the side of the road.

[Kish]

Windows, danielxcutter said, not windshield. Still likely to mutilate someone (sudden broken glass! What? I didn't cast it on the engine block, my hands are clean!).

[Hamste]

Yeah, that is a whole lot less dangerous than going for the windshield.

[goodpeople25]

I think given the mention of both banana peels and turtle shells in regards to attacking a fellow driver we may assume that it was an intentional Mario Kart reference.

Maybe a mention of casting lightning bolt to shrink the other vehicles on the road would have cleared confusion, though.
I was thinking about transmuting my car into a bullet actually, but bullet bills are pretty recent in mario kart history so I decided not to. Using lighting to shrink things totally slipped my mind though but I think it's a bit out there D&D wise.

[nleseul]

Casting shatter on the windshield though is quite likely to hurt or kill someone as well. When windshields break they are kept together by lamination, this means the glass wouldn't just fall in on them (though that could cause an accident as well) it would shatter and be held together completely blocking their view.

Wouldn't the effect of shatter be to break up the laminate as well as the glass, though?

[8BitNinja]

I think given the mention of both banana peels and turtle shells in regards to attacking a fellow driver we may assume that it was an intentional Mario Kart reference.

Maybe a mention of casting lightning bolt to shrink the other vehicles on the road would have cleared confusion, though.

Maybe also mentioning the blue shell *shudder* would also clear things up.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Maybe also mentioning the blue shell *shudder* would also clear things up.

Considering that the current lead for "winning" either goes to Hel, Lurkon & Associates or Team Evil at present, a blue shell would be all kinds of useful right now.

Or even a few mushrooms to give the Mechane a speed boost past the frost giants.

[Quibblicious]

Now I can say

Empathic link now? Back in my day we called it failing to keep your mouth shut.

Oh, if you had an empathic link with me you'd know how correct the latter is.

Or just read things I post here.

I always for get to check the over share light...


Q

[Quibblicious]

I was intending on screwing them without actually being lethal. Using shatter on the engine block(whatever that is) might make the car explode and go up in flames - if the spell targets the whole thing, instead of a small part of it. Mind, that's not safe either - ever heard of "For Want Of A Nail"?

Can't speak from the spell perspective but from the engine block perspective it's more likely you'd just create a nasty oil slick which you'd end up riding through.

Kind of like Grease backfiring :smallbiggrin:

[Quibblicious]

Windows, danielxcutter said, not windshield. Still likely to mutilate someone (sudden broken glass! What? I didn't cast it on the engine block, my hands are clean!).

Window glass in cars in tempered safety glass. It shatters into little balls by plan so that it won't shred a person. You'll still get cuts, but just small ones.

Q

[Peelee]

Window glass in cars in tempered safety glass. It shatters into little balls by plan so that it won't shred a person. You'll still get cuts, but just small ones.

Q

Actually, windshields are usually made with laminated glass, which means it also holds together if shattered. Diver would go from seeing perfectly clearly to seeing a giant web of cracks with the Shatter spell. Still dangerous, but no immediate lacerations.

Safety features are really cool, honestly.

[Quibblicious]

Actually, windshields are usually made with laminated glass, which means it also holds together if shattered. Diver would go from seeing perfectly clearly to seeing a giant web of cracks with the Shatter spell. Still dangerous, but no immediate lacerations.

Safety features are really cool, honestly.

True, but I was thinking of the other windows. The lamination prevents collapse in the event of a impact while moving.

And the safety features are amazing fro the most part.

Q

[goodpeople25]

Considering that the current lead for "winning" either goes to Hel, Lurkon & Associates or Team Evil at present, a blue shell would be all kinds of useful right now.

Or even a few mushrooms to give the Mechane a speed boost past the frost giants.
I wouldn't be suprised if whoevef the leader is has a super horn in reserve though.

Though Xykon might have used his for lulz and is stuck with coins. The other two seem smart enough to keep theirs though,

[8BitNinja]

Oh, if you had an empathic link with me you'd know how correct the latter is.

Not sure if this was intentional, but you can make this sound kind of creepy.

[Quibblicious]

Not sure if this was intentional, but you can make this sound kind of creepy.

Definitely not my intent.

DEFINITELY!

Q

[8BitNinja]

Definitely not my intent.

DEFINITELY!

Q

Okay, I'll take your denial at face value

*note to self, perform further investigations on the bard*

[JumboWheat01]

Okay, I'll take your denial at face value

*note to self, perform further investigations on the bard*

A Paladin investigating a Bard. This can only end in hilarity.

[goodpeople25]

Likely more hilarity when it's realized the paladin might be saying he would be investigating William Shakespeare.

[Quibblicious]

A Paladin investigating a Bard. This can only end in hilarity.

That means we're on the right track!

Q

[F.Harr]

"Windowfolk" HA I love it.