[3.5] Suggestions for a necromancer build.

[Incarnate]

Hey there great people on GiantITP.

I have a player in my group who wants to play an undead necromancer, I'm helping him create it.
Firstly, he wants to be able to conceal his undead nature to others, namely the party.
Secondly, he wants to be able to corrupt the party the over time.

What I can say currently is that he has 9 levels to play with and the group is playing in the Forgotten Realms setting.
We have access to most source material, I believe we have all but not completely sure. Also to note that there is a rule in place
where specialization into a school of magic don't prohibit the other, but instead just reflects specialized being better in that field,
which of course means bonus in regards to certain things.

He's open to suggestions but currently he doesn't want to steer too much away from the necromancer class.
Currently he's also going to have a "partner-in-crime" - a deceptive rogue, if that helps with come up with something that is achievable.

I will need references if I am to be able to use them. Also to note I'm willing to bend minor rules to make it work - within limits.

I'm interested to see what the mighty people of GiantITP can come up with.


/Inc.

[EDIT]
Seems there is need of some clarification.
First of all, I am the GM (OP of the thread).
Secondly, he doesn't want to control their actions after corrupting them.
- he's interested in corrupting them, turning them evil - NOT controlling their actions but affecting them.
- It's not to try and win, but to create a different roleplaying game experience where the story changes direction as they change alignment. The rest of the party start out good aligned fighting villains and doing good, but as they get corrupted they start doing more questionable actions, until a point where they could be perseived as the villains.
Thirdly, what type of evil they will get corrupted towards all depends on what happens but as he's undead it would probably something down those lines, but for starters a change in their alignment from whatever to evil.

[Inevitability]

For your base race I recommend human: necromancy can get feat-intensive.

Necropolitian is probably the best way to become undead. No LA, so as much casting as a 'normal' wizard, easy transformation that doesn't leave the subject bound to any entity and all the good bits of undeadness. The template can be found in Libris Mortis.

Speaking of Libris Mortis, it's got a lot of good stuff for necromancers. For example, the Corpsecrafter line of feats can strengthen created undead, bolster their attacks, make them harder to turn, or make them explode upon re-death.

A less powerful but very thematic option is Stitched Flesh Familiar. It replaces a wizard's familiar with an undead frankensteinian version that increases the amount of undead they can control.

A pure yet interesting necromancer build would be wizard 3/Master Specialist 6. It gives bonuses when casting necromancy spells, can give undead turn resistance and is generally a solid caster.

[Esprit15]

I lean towards Dread Necromancer or Cleric for necromancy. Dread Necro gets a lot of nice boosts to amount of and quality of undead made, as well as rebuking, allowing you to control some of the monsters you create, and infinite healing of undead, so anything that survives an encounter is going to be back up to full, no resources spent. Clerics meanwhile get more types of undead that they can make with create undead spells, and domains.

[Inevitability]

I lean towards Dread Necromancer or Cleric for necromancy. Dread Necro gets a lot of nice boosts to amount of and quality of undead made, as well as rebuking, allowing you to control some of the monsters you create, and infinite healing of undead, so anything that survives an encounter is going to be back up to full, no resources spent. Clerics meanwhile get more types of undead that they can make with create undead spells, and domains.

I thought he meant necromancer as in 'necromancy-specialized wizard'.

If OP didn't, I'd like to add Death Master from dragon compendium to the list of interesting classes. Having to sacrifice humanoids is an interesting mechanic, and having a skeleton owlbear pet is awesome.

[TheFurith]

I'd go Dread Necro. All the necro you really could need, and all the skills to be deceptive about it. Then throw in some Favored Soul and go True Necro as well and do a Charisma Necro Theurge. Maybe use the Favored Soul levels to pick up some healing. Who would suspect the healer of being undead?

If possibly I'd use the Death Touched race. Sure it has +1LA but with +4 Charisma for two caster types I'd say it's worth it. Then add the Necropolatian template and use Charnel Touch to keep yourself healed up for free.

I forget how one gains access to the death domain without being a Cleric for the True Necro though. It may not be possible without something really obscure or a house rule now that I think about it. It's been a long time since I've thought about Necros.

[Recurver]

Depending on the makeup of the group, I recommend they also take the Mother Cyst feat. If their goal is to eventually corrupt the rest of the party, there are few better methods than slowly but surely infecting the rest of the group over the course of the campaign (via secret rolls) then taking them over one by one once you get the spell level necessary to permanently dominate them. I recommend convincing them that Attriman oil in planar hand book is a great way to help you get drunk. or just slip it in their drinks anyway. lowers fort saves by 4 with no save for it.
Just some small recommendations.

[Telonius]

For disguise purposes, a Necropolitan Changeling should be able to conceal themselves from low-level adventurers pretty well. It's technically an Eberron race, but could probably exist in Faerun without too much of a hassle. Anyway, Necropolitans retain the special abilities of the base race; so they'd be able to change their appearance however they like through Minor Change Shape.

[prufock]

If your DM approves, see if you can stack the dread necro's undead mastery ability with the deathbound domain power. The domain power gives you 3HD/level instead of 2HD/level. Undead mastery gives you (2+Cha)HD/level instead of 2HD/level. While not clear under RAW, I'd rule that both of them give you (3+Cha)HD/level.

[Extra Anchovies]

Secondly, he wants to be able to corrupt the party the over time.

What would you be influencing your fellow PCs towards, and how? The Death Master class is by default only available to followers of Orcus, so you could try convincing the other party members that demon worship isn't really all that bad, but I'd guess it's more than likely that some of the other players aren't going to want to play characters who worship Orcus.


Depending on the makeup of the group, I recommend they also take the Mother Cyst feat. If their goal is to eventually corrupt the rest of the party, there are few better methods than slowly but surely infecting the rest of the group over the course of the campaign (via secret rolls) then taking them over one by one once you get the spell level necessary to permanently dominate them. I recommend convincing them that Attriman oil in planar hand book is a great way to help you get drunk. or just slip it in their drinks anyway. lowers fort saves by 4 with no save for it.
Just some small recommendations.

Okay. Real talk: don't do this. Dungeons and Dragons is a group roleplaying game. It is not a game you play to "win". There's a term for people who try to play D&D to "win", and that term is munchkin. If you have a specific story that you have to tell and feel the need to control the actions of every major character to make sure that story happens perfectly, stop wasting your friends' time pretending to play a TTRPG with them and go write a novel. Even if you're upfront about your long-term story ideas and the other players are all on board with them, you still shouldn't dictate the other player characters' actions, because they showed up to play D&D and tell a story together, not to watch you play D&D and tell a story by yourself.

[denthor]

Not to be picky but what are the other classes of your players?

[Inevitability]

For disguise purposes, a Necropolitan Changeling should be able to conceal themselves from low-level adventurers pretty well. It's technically an Eberron race, but could probably exist in Faerun without too much of a hassle. Anyway, Necropolitans retain the special abilities of the base race; so they'd be able to change their appearance however they like through Minor Change Shape.

Actually, MM3 introduced changelings in a setting-neutral context, which should make them valid picks even in a pure Faerun campaign.

Failing that, say you reached the FR through the plane of shadow.

[Psyren]

+1 to Anchovies - being a necromancer is fine, but controlling the actions of your party or planning to trick them into corruption or falling is definitely not. D&D has enough special snowflake concepts as it is.

[Tvtyrant]

I prefer undead leadership to creating undead myself. They are numerous, self-replenishing and free. Then he can play whatever class he wants and be a Necromancer, although I would go into Walker of the Wastes for Dry Lich body and cool fluff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dread necromancer 8/horned harbinger 2 is my go-to recommendation for necromancy: charisma to CL for animate dead is rather nice. It's hard to hide that crown of bone horns you get, though. Maybe you can play a changeling, and just adjust the horns to look like antlers, or something. Claim you're fond of Obad-hai and such (because dinosaurs make great skeletons).

[Incarnate]

I've editted the post and created a section called [EDIT] because it seems there was a need for some clarifications.



Okay. Real talk: don't do this. Dungeons and Dragons is a group roleplaying game. It is not a game you play to "win". There's a term for people who try to play D&D to "win", and that term is munchkin. If you have a specific story that you have to tell and feel the need to control the actions of every major character to make sure that story happens perfectly, stop wasting your friends' time pretending to play a TTRPG with them and go write a novel. Even if you're upfront about your long-term story ideas and the other players are all on board with them, you still shouldn't dictate the other player characters' actions, because they showed up to play D&D and tell a story together, not to watch you play D&D and tell a story by yourself.

As far as that goes, please see the main post's [edit] section for further clarification, but in short the two players don't want to control the rest of the party and their action, they only want to corrupt them (changing their alignment)
to affect the direction of the story, as per written in the clarifications. As I'm the GM I'm fully aware of whats going on here and are only approving it because of the roleplaying elements.


Not to be picky but what are the other classes of your players?
Not fully determined yet because they having troubles deciding what they want to play, a part from the "duo".

[darksolitaire]

Dread necromancer 8/horned harbinger 2 is my go-to recommendation for necromancy: charisma to CL for animate dead is rather nice. It's hard to hide that crown of bone horns you get, though. Maybe you can play a changeling, and just adjust the horns to look like antlers, or something. Claim you're fond of Obad-hai and such (because dinosaurs make great skeletons).

Neat, I had already forgotten that Horned Harbinger existed. TBH I'd use that class to play more martial focused necromancer, since it doesn't offer caster level advancement. It just seems like a cool concept to me, even though it's no where near as strong as caster necromancer.

[Incarnate]

There are some cool suggestions. However I don't see anything that relates to part with corrupting the other party members,
or something that directly has something to do with concealing the undead nature, apart from the changeling from Ebberon.

I was hoping for something that did offer more than just the necromatic elements.

[Inevitability]

Disguise Undead from Spell Compendium lasts 24 hours and blocks both sight and magical detection. It's 2nd-level and on the wizard list: dread necromancers or clerics are out of luck.

[Incarnate]

Disguise Undead from Spell Compendium lasts 24 hours and blocks both sight and magical detection. It's 2nd-level and on the wizard list: dread necromancers or clerics are out of luck.

Maybe there are feats that does the same, I'm not aware of any which is why ask.
It may also be possible with a magical item? Personal enchantment perhaps? Starting at level 9 he has 36.000 Gp's to buy items and services for.
Of course this is only if its feasible to try a save a spell slot from being reserved for this spell.

The corruption part is also important.

[Telonius]

Another possibility: check with your DM about how, exactly, the ritual of crucimigration works. Does your character start looking like the picture of a Necropolitan right away? If not, you could probably bend the Gentle Repose spell into preventing your body from decaying as long as it's active. It's Clr2, Sor/Wiz3, and lasts for days/level. If you're starting at level 9, that's one spell slot every nine days; definitely something you can afford. You'd still register if somebody happened to Detect Undead, but that's not exactly a common spell for people to be casting, and there are ways to foil it. Your primary concern is to avoid raising suspicion in the first place.

[Incarnate]

Another possibility: check with your DM about how, exactly, the ritual of crucimigration works. Does your character start looking like the picture of a Necropolitan right away? If not, you could probably bend the Gentle Repose spell into preventing your body from decaying as long as it's active. It's Clr2, Sor/Wiz3, and lasts for days/level. If you're starting at level 9, that's one spell slot every nine days; definitely something you can afford. You'd still register if somebody happened to Detect Undead, but that's not exactly a common spell for people to be casting, and there are ways to foil it. Your primary concern is to avoid raising suspicion in the first place.

As I'm the DM I can very easily decide and answer.

As far as the ritual of Crucimigration, I would interpret it as the character almost immediately after dying becomes undead as part of the final step.
I would rule that the gentle repose spell would work on undead, because the undead is still technically a corpse, IMO an animated corpse with the undead type.
Of course there is the matter of when the character got the gentle repose effect on after becoming undead. I'd also say disguise undead would be important.
Which is an arcane illusion spell of level 2.

Does anyone have any other ideas they'd like to suggest?

[Incarnate]

Guys, thank you very much for all the suggestions - it was a great helping my player decide.

So he went with the Death Master class and is now considering getting something "extra" Like a few levels of some type of unholy paladin.
Since Death Master is a disciple of Orcus, there must be some options available - just not sure which ones..

So anyone here who have a viable suggestion?

[AnachroNinja]

I am personally playing a necropolitan cleric at the moment who is going pretty heavily into necromancy. My take so far has been the classic robes and bandages to hide his appearance route. I also used the spell stitched template to get a number of SLAs, including animate dead to avoid the component cost. Or is expensive in terms of experience but worthwhile in my opinion. Having a stitched flesh familiar allows it to be spell stitched as well. This also allows me to be neutral aligned and spontaneously cast heals while still having full access to animate dead and desecrate with no issues. It also increases the number of party buff spells I can use to endear myself to the party in case they do find out I'm undead.

A succession for the corruption aspect. He can arrange for the party to find information suggesting that undead and negative energy are not actually evil as the churches would have people believe, possibly getting them to be more supportive of necromancy. If they use such magics themselves, it could help corrupt and change their alignments. Just my thoughts.

[Segev]

I know this is a little weird coming from me, but...are you sure you want to go with a PC who's trying to warp the other PCs' alignments over time? That kind of thing has potential to rip a game apart if not handled well. Make sure all the players are going to be okay with this. (This doesn't mean you need to ask them point blank, but you do need to be sure you know them well enough to know they'd be okay with this.)

On this theme, what is the purpose of this "corruption?" It will likely be unsatisfying to have it be cartoonish "turn them to the dark side" for no reason at all. What is the goal? What does he expect the "corrupted" party to do that is worth the effort? Is it just that he wants them to be okay with/condone his undead state? His necromantic proclivities?

What is his goal as an undead necromancer? How does he want to play? When he envisions his character, what does he see it as doing? What kinds of scenes would be iconic to him in terms of what he wants to play out?

[Incarnate]

I know this is a little weird coming from me, but...are you sure you want to go with a PC who's trying to warp the other PCs' alignments over time? That kind of thing has potential to rip a game apart if not handled well. Make sure all the players are going to be okay with this. (This doesn't mean you need to ask them point blank, but you do need to be sure you know them well enough to know they'd be okay with this.)

On this theme, what is the purpose of this "corruption?" It will likely be unsatisfying to have it be cartoonish "turn them to the dark side" for no reason at all. What is the goal? What does he expect the "corrupted" party to do that is worth the effort? Is it just that he wants them to be okay with/condone his undead state? His necromantic proclivities?

What is his goal as an undead necromancer? How does he want to play? When he envisions his character, what does he see it as doing? What kinds of scenes would be iconic to him in terms of what he wants to play out?

They are going to be okay with it, as these things can happen as part of good roleplaying. The reason for the corruption is partly to condone his undead state and undead proclivities, but it's also to have the story take a different direction (which I'm ok with as I will just twist my story towards whatever the pc's are up to). The reason why he want's to be an undead I think is mostly because he likes the powerful feeling of playing one. One of things he wants to achieve is raise an undead army and begin an evil conquest, where of course he wants the party to be a part of ;)

[Segev]

In that case, necropolitan is probably his best bet, as it bites the least of his real power (class levels).

A hat of disguise and a good nondetection spell will help keep him from being outed as undead. The gentle repose suggestion would work, too, if you're good with whatever kind of undead he is starting "fresh" looking still alive.

For getting the party to accept him, I recommend simply being a good ally. Make friends. Maybe be a little reticent or shy, but don't be a loner and don't be withdrawn. Make friends. When his condition is learned, they should at worst take pity on him, feel bad that he thought this would drive a wedge. Those who have moral opposition to undead will be his biggest challenge. Make that friendship something that is the REASON he kept it from them: he was terrified of losing it.

Better, though, if you can be somewhat open about it. Honestly, if you want to have the party accept it, use undead around them but use them very responsibly. Keep them controlled. Don't do horrific things; they're tools for efficient adventuring, not instruments of terror. At least, no more so than the barbarian's greataxe.

Measure their acceptance by how they get used to your minions. And reveal your condition when they're comfortable with it.


As for being a truly vile individual who can conquer and spread his undead reign, look to Libris Mortis and the Mother Cyst feat. Really take a look at what you can do with people infected by necrotic cysts: scry on them, control them, enslave them, and use them as grenades to spread it further! Look up the Skulking Cyst monster in that book, too. Keep them under a command undead so they'll work for you, and you can send them in as spies and to spread necrotic cysts in towns and dungeons before you even enter.

[Incarnate]

My player ended up creating a Necropolitan Death Master5/Duskblade4, where he has taken the battle caster feat, so currently he can ignore arcane spell failure for heavy armors - which he really wanted as he's gotten his hands on the Armor of the Dread Emperor (though a more generic version of it). He also went with the mother cyst and black lore of moil feats.

Do you guys have any further suggestions for this character?

[Inevitability]

My player ended up creating a Necropolitan Death Master5/Duskblade4, where he has taken the battle caster feat, so currently he can ignore arcane spell failure for heavy armors - which he really wanted as he's gotten his hands on the Armor of the Dread Emperor (though a more generic version of it). He also went with the mother cyst and black lore of moil feats.

Do you guys have any further suggestions for this character?

Why did he enter Death Master and not Abjurant Champion? Stacking two seperate spell progressions (or even interrupting one) is generally a bad idea. Is it for the spell channels?

[Remuko]

My player ended up creating a Necropolitan Death Master5/Duskblade4, where he has taken the battle caster feat, so currently he can ignore arcane spell failure for heavy armors - which he really wanted as he's gotten his hands on the Armor of the Dread Emperor (though a more generic version of it). He also went with the mother cyst and black lore of moil feats.

Do you guys have any further suggestions for this character?

How did he get black lore of moil? Does that not require a caster level of 7? Or did you handwave as DM that Death Master and Duskblade spellcasting stacks or something?

[Inevitability]

How did he get black lore of moil? Does that not require a caster level of 7? Or did you handwave as DM that Death Master and Duskblade spellcasting stacks or something?

Practiced Spellcaster, perhaps?

[Incarnate]

Why did he enter Death Master and not Abjurant Champion? Stacking two seperate spell progressions (or even interrupting one) is generally a bad idea. Is it for the spell channels?

As far as I know its for various reasons -One is the arcane channeling, another one was to get rid of arcane spell failure completely, the third reason I know of was because he wanted to wear a specific armor - a more generic version of the armor of the dread emperor - which is a plate mail by the way. I would have to agree that it's a bad idea to stack two spell progressions, but as far as I know he's not taking more levels in it as he got what he wanted from Duskblade. Obviously if he could get the same result without dipping into Duskblade, then he would - so if you know of a way please do share.


How did he get black lore of moil? Does that not require a caster level of 7? Or did you handwave as DM that Death Master and Duskblade spellcasting stacks or something?

Yes it does require a caster level of 7, but I reduced it a bit for his character based on his character story and because of lore specific elements in my campaign. And yes he also has practiced spellcaster.

[Klara Meison]

Is the rest of the party on board with the whole corruption idea? Otherwise you might get into a silly situation.

"Oooh, Player 3, some to the dark side, we have cookies!"

"Nope."

"But this is clearly the logical choice in this case! Convert to the side of Eeeeevil!"

"Nope."

"Look, see, I have put you into an unsolvable ethical problem! You either have to commit a small evil for the greater good, or allow a great evil to happen! You must fall!"

*chooses a third option* "Nope."

"But I have been corrupting you for months now! Surely my nefarious influence has seeped into the cracks in your soul by now?"

"Nope."

"Ha! I have cleverly sneaked a mindcontrolling potion into your drink! Bow to my evil will now!"

*uses Seducer's Bane* "Nope."

"Look, dude, I want to play an evil necromancer, stop foiling my fun"

"And I want to play a good white wizard, stop foiling my fun."

[Nifft]

In terms of corruption, I'd like to recommend a custom Graft Flesh feat.

What it would do is emulate the effect of the Craft Wondrous Item feat, except the items are undead grafts (permanently attached, not magic items, can't be stolen or sold or transferred) which behave like Evil intelligent items. You can improve a graft that's already in place, but making it more powerful means the item's Ego score goes up.

Use the evil carrot, not the evil stick.

[Incarnate]

In terms of corruption, I'd like to recommend a custom Graft Flesh feat.

What it would do is emulate the effect of the Craft Wondrous Item feat, except the items are undead grafts (permanently attached, not magic items, can't be stolen or sold or transferred) which behave like Evil intelligent items. You can improve a graft that's already in place, but making it more powerful means the item's Ego score goes up.

Use the evil carrot, not the evil stick.

Interesting idea, I'm wondering - how you'd actually get the players to accept the grafts if they aren't interested in a graft in the first place?

[Nifft]

Interesting idea, I'm wondering - how you'd actually get the players to accept the grafts if they aren't interested in a graft in the first place?

I wouldn't.

But in my experience, players like magic items which give their characters cool powers, so in my experience they generally would want one, once they see the things in action.