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Phantom's Eye
2016-09-15, 06:44 PM
How's that for a tittle? Oh, I am new when it comes to posting on the forums if i have posted in the wrong area i do apologize.

I was reading up on the lore of MTG (Magic the Gathering) blocks, Innistrad and Eldritch Moon. I wanted to know more about the plane and of course build up ideas for future campaigns, then i had a thought.

Could a player character create a angel or at the very least an artificial angel?

I am not worried about the exact details and at the moment i just wanted to know if it could be done. In most rpg, mages using their magic have successfully created to some degree of success dragons, Draconian creatures, undead, vampires, and artificial humans (homunculus). I think some modules explore a villain creating a new god like being using his own soul and such.
Perhaps if they used some sort of mystical ritual that needs expensive materials, a lot of exp, and time they could create a angel that way. But could they create angels or demons using this method?

I was wondering if any other player or DM has thought about this or even done something like this. (Note: I know DM could create angels on the spot, because they can. But i mean if a NPC could create the angel or demon.)

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-15, 07:02 PM
I almost forgot if you have done something like this before, could you please explain the circumstances, and how did you go about it mechanically speaking?

Quertus
2016-09-16, 07:37 AM
Short answer: yes.

In 3.x, there is an epic spell, Origin of Species, that creates an Achaierai.

In various editions, polymorph breeding programs were a thing.

Really, true angels are just part of heaven; The original true devils are the descendents of the big M (and, at least in 2e, lawful planes force there to be a set number of such creatures, And automatically repopulate when one dies).

So, to create an artificial true angel, grab a piece of Celestia, and apply magic. Creating an artificial true devil is almost impossible, and would require some of M's blood, then magic to convince the planes that your creation is a required part of the natural order. Creating an artificial true demon follows the same rules as creating an artificial angel.

EDIT : The horribly written epic spell requires 100 days, 10,000 xp, 11 additional casters contributing 9th level spells, 10 additional casters contributing 8th level spells, 10 additional casters contributing 1st level spells... and deals 50d6 damage to the caster who, if killed by this damage, cannot be resurrected... and doesn't really follow the rules (such as they are) for epic spells.

Cealocanth
2016-09-16, 09:10 AM
I generally follow the rule of thumb that, as celestial creatures, all angels and demons were present at the beginning of time at the start of the war between good and evil, and an angel or demon can neither be created nor destroyed. That isn't to say that there aren't a lot of them, with some being more famous than others, but they can only be summoned and dismissed, damaged, but never destroyed. There's definitely enough of them that, come whatever "judgement day" that I may have in the game, that there's a bloody army of them on both sides.

Yes, that means that even the gods (be they good or evil) cannot create demons or angels

Quertus
2016-09-16, 10:11 AM
I generally follow the rule of thumb that, as celestial creatures, all angels and demons were present at the beginning of time at the start of the war between good and evil, and an angel or demon can neither be created nor destroyed. That isn't to say that there aren't a lot of them, with some being more famous than others, but they can only be summoned and dismissed, damaged, but never destroyed. There's definitely enough of them that, come whatever "judgement day" that I may have in the game, that there's a bloody army of them on both sides.

Yes, that means that even the gods (be they good or evil) cannot create demons or angels

Oooh, good point: RAW, deities with the correct ability (creation?) can simply will a creature into existence, at the cost of resting afterwards.

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-16, 02:04 PM
Short answer: yes.

In 3.x, there is an epic spell, Origin of Species, that creates an Achaierai.

In various editions, polymorph breeding programs were a thing.

Really, true angels are just part of heaven; The original true devils are the descendents of the big M (and, at least in 2e, lawful planes force there to be a set number of such creatures, And automatically repopulate when one dies).

So, to create an artificial true angel, grab a piece of Celestia, and apply magic. Creating an artificial true devil is almost impossible, and would require some of M's blood, then magic to convince the planes that your creation is a required part of the natural order. Creating an artificial true demon follows the same rules as creating an artificial angel.

EDIT : The horribly written epic spell requires 100 days, 10,000 xp, 11 additional casters contributing 9th level spells, 10 additional casters contributing 8th level spells, 10 additional casters contributing 1st level spells... and deals 50d6 damage to the caster who, if killed by this damage, cannot be resurrected... and doesn't really follow the rules (such as they are) for epic spells.

I didn't know they had a spell to do it but then again never venture past the 14th level in d&d/pathfinder. The spell itself takes 100 days (so for 100 days don't move an inch and hope you don't get attack) 11 additional casters to cast 9th level spells (i love to see 11 npc/pc that could cast 9th level spells), and you take at most 300 damage for casting the spell, and of course if you die you cannot be brought back to life.

Well i guess that's about right to cast the spell...I think? I would rather create an artificial angel then the real thing.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Gotta ask, did you look up this up in the book? Because if you knew this from the top of your head that is crazy lol.

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-16, 02:13 PM
I generally follow the rule of thumb that, as celestial creatures, all angels and demons were present at the beginning of time at the start of the war between good and evil, and an angel or demon can neither be created nor destroyed. That isn't to say that there aren't a lot of them, with some being more famous than others, but they can only be summoned and dismissed, damaged, but never destroyed. There's definitely enough of them that, come whatever "judgement day" that I may have in the game, that there's a bloody army of them on both sides.

Yes, that means that even the gods (be they good or evil) cannot create demons or angels

I like this rule though if they cannot be destroyed what about the gods and archdevils? Can they be killed? Destroyed? Dethroned? Or are they the same? I would like to add though it makes the whole 'endless war cycle' feasible as the angels and devils are locked in the endless war.

EDIT: I forgot to say thank you for your answer. It seems weird making the edit just for this. But gratitude is a big thing to me, so just wanted to say thanks.

TheCountAlucard
2016-09-17, 07:31 AM
Per the rules for sorcerous workings, creating various demonic or divine minions is doable in Exalted Third Edition.

I'll cover two examples for making entire races of such minions.

Example one, a Celestial Circle sorcerer could use Demon of the Second Circle to call up Florivet, the Whim of the Wind, and bind him. Trapping him in an occult circle and either forcing or persuading him to cooperate with you in creating a race of First Circle Demons, he would count as additional Means for your working.

Alternatively, you could hack it together as a Terrestrial Circle sorcerer via Demon of the First Circle and rather a lot of genetic engineering. Summon a Neomah, as well as whatever other demons, elementals, humans, animals, et cetera., possess some of the traits of the creatures you eventually want, and use the Neomah's arts to produce viable offspring between them until you have what you want.

BWR
2016-09-17, 08:34 AM
(and, at least in 2e, lawful planes force there to be a set number of such creatures, And automatically repopulate when one dies).


I think you're thinking of Gehreleths (demodands). And they're NE, not LE.

Quertus
2016-09-17, 11:12 AM
I didn't know they had a spell to do it but then again never venture past the 14th level in d&d/pathfinder. The spell itself takes 100 days (so for 100 days don't move an inch and hope you don't get attack) 11 additional casters to cast 9th level spells (i love to see 11 npc/pc that could cast 9th level spells), and you take at most 300 damage for casting the spell, and of course if you die you cannot be brought back to life.

Well i guess that's about right to cast the spell...I think? I would rather create an artificial angel then the real thing.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Gotta ask, did you look up this up in the book? Because if you knew this from the top of your head that is crazy lol.

Well, it probably is my least favorite spell :smalltongue: Admittedly, I had to look up how to spell... the monster... so while I was there, I fixed my estimates, replacing "forever" with 100 days, and upping the # of required 9th level spells by one.


I think you're thinking of Gehreleths (demodands). And they're NE, not LE.

Um, ok, yes, some other planes resurrect creatures, too, each with their own rules (Ysgard resurrects its warriors / petitioners every night, for example).

Planescape was my brother's favorite part of 2e, not mine, but IIRC, modrons & certain other lawful outsiders - true devils included - could automatically get "promoted" when one of their brethren dies.

Thus, to qualify as a true devil, your creation would need to be integrated into hell's auto promote system.

Or perhaps that's a chicken and egg problem - perhaps as soon as your creation qualifies as a true devil, it will automatically be eligible for promotion.

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-17, 07:02 PM
Per the rules for sorcerous workings, creating various demonic or divine minions is doable in Exalted Third Edition.

I'll cover two examples for making entire races of such minions.

Example one, a Celestial Circle sorcerer could use Demon of the Second Circle to call up Florivet, the Whim of the Wind, and bind him. Trapping him in an occult circle and either forcing or persuading him to cooperate with you in creating a race of First Circle Demons, he would count as additional Means for your working.

Alternatively, you could hack it together as a Terrestrial Circle sorcerer via Demon of the First Circle and rather a lot of genetic engineering. Summon a Neomah, as well as whatever other demons, elementals, humans, animals, et cetera., possess some of the traits of the creatures you eventually want, and use the Neomah's arts to produce viable offspring between them until you have what you want.

Thanks for your response.
Sorry, i am unfamiliar with 'Exalted' i heard of it a few times before but never read too much into it.

But i do like the idea of summoning the angel binding it to you and persuade it to aid in your experiments.

Pyromancer999
2016-09-17, 08:20 PM
In 3.5, you can use the Create Lantern Archon spell to create a Lantern Archon. It starts off friendly and will act as Lesser Planar Ally for a few hours. Spell only takes an hour and deals 1d2 Constitution damage, so the damage could be prevented through a Strongheart Vest or binding Naberius.

TheCountAlucard
2016-09-18, 12:44 AM
Sorry, i am unfamiliar with 'Exalted' i heard of it a few times before but never read too much into it.Feel free to check my sig.


But i do like the idea of summoning the angel binding it to you and persuade it to aid in your experiments.That's one of a number of ways to accomplish it - even the sky isn't the limit for sorcerous workings! For creating a creature of a more singular nature, there's also the Occult capstone, whereby you take the ephemera of all the spirits you've ever killed, and cobble together a whole new spirit.

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-20, 08:57 PM
In 3.5, you can use the Create Lantern Archon spell to create a Lantern Archon. It starts off friendly and will act as Lesser Planar Ally for a few hours. Spell only takes an hour and deals 1d2 Constitution damage, so the damage could be prevented through a Strongheart Vest or binding Naberius.


Is it a spell that any magic caster could use or only those who use divine magic? Ah never-mind, i just realized that it wouldn't matter as sorcerers can use 'Summon Monster' to summon a celestial creature without any problems. Having a lantern Archon as a ally is good (might use the spell in future campaigns). Thanks for helping.
-Phantom Eye

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-20, 09:02 PM
Feel free to check my sig.

That's one of a number of ways to accomplish it - even the sky isn't the limit for sorcerous workings! For creating a creature of a more singular nature, there's also the Occult capstone, whereby you take the ephemera of all the spirits you've ever killed, and cobble together a whole new spirit.

Now that i have a few things or methods to use to create an angel now i need to think of a plausible reason for a npc creating an angel. I mean aside from the mad scientist wanting to try just to see if he could do it. As mentioned before i enjoyed the reason why Sorin Markov created the angel, Avacyn.

Phantom's Eye
2016-09-20, 09:11 PM
I should talk about what exactly happened in magic the gathering that inspire the question for those who don't know. I'm paraphrasing here as a side note, Sorin Markov is a planeswalker vampire from the plane Innistrad. On his homeworld the creatures of the night essentially rule the night nearly driving the humans on innistrad extinct which the vampires didn't care for because they saw humans as mere cattle.

Sorin Markov realized that if the humans go extinct and the vampires left unchecked and their primary food source gone will resort to cannibalism eventually resulting in the vampires extinct.

To prevent this he created the Archangel Avacyn and tasked her with the protection of the plane and it's people. In this act he gave hope through faith from Avacyn, but this act he in the eyes of the vampires he has betrayed them.

So that's the quick story of why he created Avacyn (again paraphrasing here) and why I an interested in the concept to begin with.