Why OOTS should be a pay comic

[Barak]

An open letter to the Giant:

(anyone else is free to chime in with their opinions)

Dear Giant:

I've been reading OOTS for quite some time now, (since about #120 or so, but never really felt compelled to post before now) and have been delighted with the adventures you have created for your fictional team of adventurers. I think I'm about the same age as you; I started playing Dungeons and Dragons at the age of about 8 or so, some 24 years ago, and nothing reminds me of my old role-playing days like looking in at the Order of the Stick. Thank you so much for the ride.

I'm not sure how many people visit this site on a regular basis, probably in the tens of thousands, which is a testament to your story-telling ability. Like many others, I've been saddened to hear of your health difficulties and wish you well, but I have a proposal for you which may at first seem distasteful but I think will be for the best in the long run:

I think you should charge for membership on the site.

Not a lot, maybe something like $10 for a year's membership--and maybe the newest strip would always be free, but to access the back catalogue you would have to pay. If only 5,000 of your fans paid, that amounts to $50K of yearly income for you, which would allow you all kinds of freedom about where and when to work and how much. Here's why you deserve to be paid for your work:

1. You're already making money at this. You've created merchandise, you sell other books, you sell compilations of strips in book form. You are trying to make money from this, but you aren't utilizing the single greatest resource you have, which is the internet site.

2. You are an artist, and artists deserve to be paid for their efforts. I know this is a labor of love, and it appears a little unseemly to profit from something you enjoy doing, but think of all those other people out there doing what they love and getting paid for it: singers, actors, writers, the occasional garbage man. Those people expect to be paid for their labor, you should too.

3. OOTS takes a lot of your time. Your time is valuable--running the site, creating the art, thinking of the storyline, all of this is a lot of work. It might prevent you from doing other things you enjoy doing, there is no sin in seeking compensation for your time.

I know there are a lot of people who are going to howl about the internet being free and they're used to the comic being free, but you need to think of yourself as well. Other on-line comics don't charge, but other on-line comics do not match the quality of this strip, nor are they as popular.

Will your readership decrease? Probably a little bit, but not as much as you might think. I'm sure there will be some whining, but think of the disrespect if someone who expects 3 strips per week from you complains about a measly $10? Do they really think that little of OOTS that they aren't willing to pay anything for it? People will pay because people recognize something of value.

$10 is not a lot of money--it's three energy drinks. Even the younger readers without jobs will be able to scrounge $10--they could get memberships as birthday presents if need be.

I, for one, would be happy and honored to pay for this content. I'm a writer too, and I sell thousands of books a year, (not millions, but thousands) and I love writing, but I also love the happy paycheck that arrives in my mailbox every month. It helps to feed my family; it's going to put my children through college.

And if I say if anyone out there wouldn't pay for this site, they don't value it enough and good riddance to them.

Please, Giant, think of yourself for once and consider this.

[Oberon]

I, personally, would be willing to pay for oots, but I think a membership charge would highly reduce the chance of Oots making any new fans?
From the point of view of someone who is ignorant of the quality of the srtip, a charge might turn them away. You suggestion of making new comics free and the archive requiring paid membership may not remedy this problem, as newcomers would be confused when discovering OOTs in the middle of a story arc, and would not be able to access the archives to see if they actually liked the comic.

I'm not saying you're idea is neccessarily a bad one, but, in my opinion, there would be many disgruntled fans and much lower growth in fan population.

And that's my two coppers

[Caractacus]

I think the problem here is that would actually place more pressure on the Giant to get his material out on time and at the very highest quality - and it's pressure and stress that are (apparently) the greatest contributor to his health problems,or at least the factor that is easiest to regulate.

The sense of responsibility and devotion that Rich has shown even when offering his work to us for free suggests that he shouldn't bind himself to a 'contract' (however figurative or concrete) to produce his work for us to a strict schedule.

It's not a bad idea for a web-artist, but I don't think it's good for the Giant...

[Tharr]

The cash might cause people then have legal rights to whine if the comic is late. Besides what do you want Rich to become Alan Moore or maybe Kevin Smith famous bearded reclusive people who get sick alot. Lawyer would love it because it would mean alot of paper work and legal fees. The real money is making your own comic book or prehaps then selling OOTS to WOTC and have them make it as published comic book. Basic Rich said no more new projects basically that rules this out. Beside the only thing anyone pays for on the net is porn so they say watches Belkar try hiding pop up ads.

[Shadic]

The Giant makes money selling book compilations, games, and such.... Why greatly reduce his user base, and people willing to buy his product?

[Scientivore]

The article Abandoning Micropayments (http://comixtalk.com/abandoning_micropayments) on COMIXTALK (http://comixtalk.com/) is very relevant. I highly recommend it.

[EdgarVerona]

I highly disagree with the original post. I understand - even sympathize - with your intent. You're worried that the Giant isn't making enough money off of his IP, and that's understandable.

But it'd go against the intent: by making it free, he would alienate the great portion of his popularity base. That is to say, most people who read online comics expect it to be free, and won't bother to pay for it. They *WILL* pay for T-Shirts, games, books, etc... which the Giant has gained profit off of without losing out on fanbase. Obviously it's been enough that he has been able to live off of it based on what's been said recently. I don't know how much it is, and I won't venture to ask... but something tells me it would be a financial mistake to charge for the comic when he makes plenty as-is on the stuff we *want* to get. The number one rule of the webcomic is to make it as accessible and popular as possible. The more "into pop culture" it can get, the more the merchandise will both be worth and the more it will be purchased. Look to Homestarrunner for that model, those guys have made incredible, unfathomable bank. Or Penny Arcade.

It's all about building your fanbase and letting them choose to give you money, not alienating your fanbase by excluding it to those who are desperate enough to see it that they'll give money upfront. You won't be gaining any new readers ever again, that's for sure.

I think Rich is doing just fine on his approach... the only thing really to do is to keep pumping out the merch that people want to get, and perhaps to do advertising on the page if he wants to. In fact, the fact that he doesn't do that right now is a testament to the fact that his merchandising campaigns must be working quite well. Even Penny Arcade (the 400 lb. ape in the room) advertises on every page to make the bulk of their cash.

If you want to help him out, the absolute best thing you can do is buy some of that merch. Buy it at a comic store when you see it, or buy it online. Wear it/use it, so others see it. And tell others. This comic'll make him bank not by him directly charging for it, but by enough people reading/loving it that their purchases of merch sends him over the top.

[Regneva]

Has anyone noticed this before, but:


Within the nanosecond the site goes members only, a few dozen sites will immediately pop up with giant's "paid" content on their display amidst some horrible banners ads (with porn on them). The Giant would have a much much harder time with copyright issues and protecting his work.

This is the internet, paid content never worked and it WILL never work.

[The Extinguisher]

Few things wrong with this.

1) People who cannot, absolutly cannot pay, are basicly screwed.

Not everyone has the money or means to pay for things on the internet. They can't get the money, or need to save it for other things, or just can't pay it. That would be complety unfair to the poor, and to those without access to a credit card, or other means.

2) The site is more than just a place for the comics.

It's a gaming site, with articles, stories and a forum. Would you have to pay for those as well. What about Erfworld? What if Rob and Jamie don't want people to pay for thier comic. It may seem odd, but a lot of people don't come here just for Oots.

3) The amount of people complaining about a comic being late will increase

Already people seem to think they have the right to complain. If you add money into the mix, those people will develop a "I paid for it, I want it on time" attitude. And no one wants that.

4) It's just a really, really silly and stupid idea.

'Nuff said.

[Lucky]

1. You're already making money at this. You've created merchandise, you sell other books, you sell compilations of strips in book form. You are trying to make money from this, but you aren't utilizing the single greatest resource you have, which is the internet site. Yes he is. If will look at the sidebar to the right of your screen, under the button marked "Forum," there is a button marked "Shop." I guarantee you it doesn't give you stuff for free.


2. You are an artist, and artists deserve to be paid for their efforts. I know this is a labor of love, and it appears a little unseemly to profit from something you enjoy doing, but think of all those other people out there doing what they love and getting paid for it: singers, actors, writers, the occasional garbage man. Those people expect to be paid for their labor, you should too. You said in your own post he's making money from this, in fact in the quote right above this one. Moot point.


3. OOTS takes a lot of your time. Your time is valuable--running the site, creating the art, thinking of the storyline, all of this is a lot of work. It might prevent you from doing other things you enjoy doing, there is no sin in seeking compensation for your time. This sounds exactly the same as point 2. Funny.


I know there are a lot of people who are going to howl about the internet being free and they're used to the comic being free, but you need to think of yourself as well. Other on-line comics don't charge, but other on-line comics do not match the quality of this strip, nor are they as popular.

Will your readership decrease? Probably a little bit, but not as much as you might think. I'm sure there will be some whining, but think of the disrespect if someone who expects 3 strips per week from you complains about a measly $10? Do they really think that little of OOTS that they aren't willing to pay anything for it? People will pay because people recognize something of value.

$10 is not a lot of money--it's three energy drinks. Even the younger readers without jobs will be able to scrounge $10--they could get memberships as birthday presents if need be.

I, for one, would be happy and honored to pay for this content. I'm a writer too, and I sell thousands of books a year, (not millions, but thousands) and I love writing, but I also love the happy paycheck that arrives in my mailbox every month. It helps to feed my family; it's going to put my children through college.

Look, I think you're missing the bigger picture here. The comic is an advertisement for the products he sells on the side. Sure, I can see a lot of current members paying, but how many people new to the site do you think would pay for a comic without knowing how good it is? By doing this he would essentially be capping his market at what it is.

THEN we have what Regneva mentioned. As soon as you have a membership for the comic, I guarantee you sites will pop up that offer the comics, either for free or at "reduced rates." It always happens for any internet media, I have trouble seeing comics being any different.

[Ancalagon]

I think this thread should drown.

[I'm da Rogue!]

Me too. But we're not helping by replying :smallbiggrin:

[Gez]

It is a very, very bad idea. It has been tried before, and it's not working. There's a reason that webcomics like Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan have went from being on pay-to-browse sites to free-for-all sites; while the reverse is uncommon. (Arguably, It's Walky went on a pay model, but with still a once-a-month free strip and it was at the same time the author started Shortpacked! for real, which is free.)

The thing is, a webcomic is also advertisement for itself. Once it's popular enough, it'll have many people willing to buy stuff. The percentage of buyers being overall quite slim (maybe 1% of readers?), the way to increase the sum is to increase dramatically the readership base.

Something to keep in mind, everyone needs money to live in our modern societies, and so most people don't like to spend it. Being on a RPG-related forum, you are probably accustomed to people ranting on the theme, "how dare WotC/WW/SJG/whatever publish a new edition/a rule compilation/a sourcebook on something that didn't exist before/whatever? They're just greedy bastards who want to make money!" (Well, duh. A business model based on not making money isn't exactly viable.)

This attitude would be devastating, because Rich is already selling stuff. See, there's a big "Shop" button. Click it and watch. It's easy to imagine the outcry, "what do you mean I have to buy access? But I already have bought the books!" or the reverse "I bought access and yet I don't get to read SoD/OotPC? Screw that, I'll go look for them on P2P!"

Very, very, very bad idea.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Didn't The Giant say something along these lines very recently? Hmmm, let me see ...


I want to emphasize that this is NOT a plea for monetary aid; I have very good health insurance these days for exactly this reason. Donating money is not going to change anything about this situation. If anything about my message spurs you to want to donate money, here are a few of my favorite charities that could use your dollars more.

There ya go. What you're suggesting is essentially a forced donation, which is exactly what The Giant doesn't want.

[cheesecake]

I'm willing to buy a shirt or a coffee mug. Maybe a couple of the books if i really wanted to read them. But I'll be damned if i'll pay to read the comic in the first place. There are plenty out there just as good that are free. I'm sure most people here feel the same way but just are too afraid to say it.

[Jaltum]

I know there are a lot of people who are going to howl about the internet being free and they're used to the comic being free, but you need to think of yourself as well. Other on-line comics don't charge, but other on-line comics do not match the quality of this strip, nor are they as popular.

All other arguments aside, this is really, catastrophically, wrong.

There are comics vastly more popular than OotS that don't have a pay-to-view model. In fact, none of the most popular webcomics are paycomics--Narbonic is probably the most popular of the paycomics, or was before it ended.

You... really need to learn more about the history and breadth of webcomics before you start trying to advice people on a business model.

[Luklan]

1) People who cannot, absolutly cannot pay, are basicly screwed.

Not everyone has the money or means to pay for things on the internet. They can't get the money, or need to save it for other things, or just can't pay it. That would be complety unfair to the poor, and to those without access to a credit card, or other means.


Thanks, I happen to be one those 'poor buggers' at the moment. My dad's currently unemployed, and so am I, so we're busy trying to find a job. It's a LOT harder than it sounds. Dad also doesn't like unleashing his credit card number all over the internet, and neither do I, to be honest. Hackers, for the loss, people.

I quite enjoy going back to certain story-arcs and rereading them for a nostalgic laugh. I did a quick run through the 'Bandit Camp' just yesterday. Hehe... "I'm going to go back and save Elan!" . . . "I'm going to go back and save the rest of the party!"

As much as I enjoy the comic, and as much as a respect Rich, I would be one of the current fans who would simply disappear if we suddenly had to pay just to take a look back at the previous comic.

[nifler]

An open letter to the Giant:

(anyone else is free to chime in with their opinions)

Dear Giant:

I've been reading OOTS for quite some time now, (since about #120 or so, but never really felt compelled to post before now) and have been delighted with the adventures you have created for your fictional team of adventurers. I think I'm about the same age as you; I started playing Dungeons and Dragons at the age of about 8 or so, some 24 years ago, and nothing reminds me of my old role-playing days like looking in at the Order of the Stick. Thank you so much for the ride.

I'm not sure how many people visit this site on a regular basis, probably in the tens of thousands, which is a testament to your story-telling ability. Like many others, I've been saddened to hear of your health difficulties and wish you well, but I have a proposal for you which may at first seem distasteful but I think will be for the best in the long run:

I think you should charge for membership on the site.

Not a lot, maybe something like $10 for a year's membership--and maybe the newest strip would always be free, but to access the back catalogue you would have to pay. If only 5,000 of your fans paid, that amounts to $50K of yearly income for you, which would allow you all kinds of freedom about where and when to work and how much. Here's why you deserve to be paid for your work:

1. You're already making money at this. You've created merchandise, you sell other books, you sell compilations of strips in book form. You are trying to make money from this, but you aren't utilizing the single greatest resource you have, which is the internet site.

2. You are an artist, and artists deserve to be paid for their efforts. I know this is a labor of love, and it appears a little unseemly to profit from something you enjoy doing, but think of all those other people out there doing what they love and getting paid for it: singers, actors, writers, the occasional garbage man. Those people expect to be paid for their labor, you should too.

3. OOTS takes a lot of your time. Your time is valuable--running the site, creating the art, thinking of the storyline, all of this is a lot of work. It might prevent you from doing other things you enjoy doing, there is no sin in seeking compensation for your time.

I know there are a lot of people who are going to howl about the internet being free and they're used to the comic being free, but you need to think of yourself as well. Other on-line comics don't charge, but other on-line comics do not match the quality of this strip, nor are they as popular.

Will your readership decrease? Probably a little bit, but not as much as you might think. I'm sure there will be some whining, but think of the disrespect if someone who expects 3 strips per week from you complains about a measly $10? Do they really think that little of OOTS that they aren't willing to pay anything for it? People will pay because people recognize something of value.

$10 is not a lot of money--it's three energy drinks. Even the younger readers without jobs will be able to scrounge $10--they could get memberships as birthday presents if need be.

I, for one, would be happy and honored to pay for this content. I'm a writer too, and I sell thousands of books a year, (not millions, but thousands) and I love writing, but I also love the happy paycheck that arrives in my mailbox every month. It helps to feed my family; it's going to put my children through college.

And if I say if anyone out there wouldn't pay for this site, they don't value it enough and good riddance to them.

Please, Giant, think of yourself for once and consider this.

Please Barak, think of my short temper and what the **** you're saying. If OOTS was to go membership, I WILL quit, and I'm not the only one. At all. So no, this is an awefull idea.

O.S. What books have you written? I wanna read something.

[Arang]

This might be a small point, but how many percent of the readers are under 18? How are they going to pay? It's not necessarily that they wouldn't pay, it's that they couldn't pay.

[Spiryt]

This might be a small point, but how many percent of the readers are under 18? How are they going to pay? It's not necessarily that they wouldn't pay, it's that they couldn't pay.

Exactly. It appears that it's quite a big percent.

[Barak]

I didn't figure it would be popular point.

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?

Rich said it wasn't a plea for money, which I took to be donations. This is him charging for content. You buy something.

I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many. Rich would make a lot more money charging for membership on this site.

As far as people complaining that the comic is late... people complain already. If the comic is updated 3 times per week at random, again, they have nothing to complain about.

People not wanting to throw their credit card numbers around online. Well, if there are people out there who _never_ buy anything online and refuse to do so at all costs (I have a cousin like this)... join the modern world. Sheesh.

Memberships for people under 18... Aren't there people under 18 with credit cards? I think I've seen a few here and there. Otherwise, get a membership for a present from a relative--again $10 is not a lot of money.

If the newest comic is always free, Rich can still attract new fans.

The entire site needn't be a pay site, just the comic. Those people who come here for gaming and other forums can still do so.

Stress on the Giant. Well, at the moment he has another job. I don't know if he loves his job or what--but if he didn't need to work at that job, that might mean less stress on him. And frankly, the greatest stressor in the world (As the people without jobs can attest to) is money... if Rich was making good money from this, then he wouldn't be as stressed out.

Lastly, other webcomics are free. Yes, but there are many, many examples of sites on the internet that charge a small fee for content (that aren't porn).

Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them. I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it. I think Rich needs to make a living doing it. Selling t-shirts and books (Where he only makes a percentage of the money spent) is not lucrative enough at the moment.

No one out there would pay $10 for a year? Seriously?

[Joran]

While your aim is honorable, I seriously doubt that this idea hasn't occured to Rich at some point in time. Clearly, he's decided against it; in fact, I must say I was very surprised to note that there aren't ads anywhere on the site, since that was the natural first step to make money off of a website.


Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them. I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it. I think Rich needs to make a living doing it. Selling t-shirts and books (Where he only makes a percentage of the money spent) is not lucrative enough at the moment.

Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz can not be compared to the web-comics. They worked for syndicates, large scale corporations that sell out to a huge distribution of newspapers. They give up a good deal of their artistic control for this. Deadlines must be met, material can be censored.

We have already found a model. Look at Penny-Arcade, MegaTokyo, PvP. They are free. Rich is clearly making enough money that he quit his day job; it says so in the FAQ. He's happy with the state of things; why mess with something that isn't broken?

If he's hard up for money, I would recommend first selling ads. Switching to a subscription-based system will just alienate people.

P.S. I own all of the OotS books as well as the board game. Sadly, I would have to re-evaluate my devotion if it switched to a pay site. It would just feel... different.

[Barak]

I didn't figure it would be popular point.

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?

Rich said it wasn't a plea for money, which I took to be donations. This is him charging for content. You buy something.

I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many. Rich would make a lot more money charging for membership on this site.

As far as people complaining that the comic is late... people complain already. If the comic is updated 3 times per week at random, again, they have nothing to complain about.

People not wanting to throw their credit card numbers around online. Well, if there are people out there who _never_ buy anything online and refuse to do so at all costs (I have a cousin like this)... join the modern world. Sheesh.

Memberships for people under 18... Aren't there people under 18 with credit cards? I think I've seen a few here and there. Otherwise, get a membership for a present from a relative--again $10 is not a lot of money.

If the newest comic is always free, Rich can still attract new fans.

The entire site needn't be a pay site, just the comic. Those people who come here for gaming and other forums can still do so.

Stress on the Giant. Well, at the moment he has another job. I don't know if he loves his job or what--but if he didn't need to work at that job, that might mean less stress on him. And frankly, the greatest stressor in the world (As the people without jobs can attest to) is money... if Rich was making good money from this, then he wouldn't be as stressed out.

Lastly, other webcomics are free. Yes, but there are many, many examples of sites on the internet that charge a small fee for content (that aren't porn).

Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them. I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it. I think Rich needs to make a living doing it. Selling t-shirts and books (Where he only makes a percentage of the money spent) is not lucrative enough at the moment.

No one out there would pay $10 for a year? Seriously?

[BobTheFerret]

Rich isn't even TRYING to make more money off OotS. If he wanted to make more money, he'd put relatively painless Google ads on the pages and probably make a bundle. But there are no ads. Anywhere. If Rich wanted more money, that'd be the first thing he'd try. In fact, the proceeds from ads on a free site would probably outstrip a measly $10 membership. By a lot.

Also, OotS is his job. He hasn't got another.

[Agalyon]

While I agree with the fact this may be a good financial move on the giants part, but as noted above it would stop new people viewing the comic and possibly it might lose some readers, it would put more pressure on the giants part to produce strips of fantastic quality but would probably fall due to the rush he needs to make and I would need to figure out some way to pay for the web comic I enjoy so much while keeping up with my bills.

So while this may be a good idea I think maybe the giant should keep to what he is currently doing, keeping a fantastic web comic on the net while releasing books, board games, etc to keep hard core fans happy with providing them with a longer story line and more hours of entertainment.

[Jayabalard]

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?Because there's plenty of online entertainment that doesn't cost me anything?

And you are very much mistaken about the effect this woul have on the comic attracting new fans. Had oots been membership based when I first stumbled across it, I would not have payed $10 for it. New fans would read the newest comic, say "that doesn't make very much sense" since it wouldn't be in context, and surf over to one of the hundreds of other, free web comics.

[WarriorTribble]

I'm sure Berlew heard and thought of the rationales for the various payment plans already. As someone else has mentioned, this isn't a comic optimized for profit, but it's what the artist wants, and since he's not stupid mentioning the obvious tactic of pay to view is... underestimating the creator somewhat.

[Ancalagon]

Suggestion, threadstarter:
Make your own webcomic. Make people having to pay for seeing it.

Tell us how it turns out.

[Pyro]

I shall quote the giant as there was a thread like this not too long ago.


Thanks, but I prefer not to accept cash unless I can provide something in return OTHER than the comic (I've done wallpaper donation drives in the past, but not recently).

The truth of the matter is, finances have nothing—less than nothing—to do with late updating. It has only to do with a.) my medical issues, and b.) the nocturnal schedule I sometimes acquire as a result of them. For example, today, I got up and went right to work on the comic; it just so happened that I woke up at 2:00 am and finished at 9:00 am. That's because I came home from the doctor wiped out yesterday and went to bed at 7:00 pm instead of starting the comic immediately.

So, yeah, if you want to support the comic, buy the books, but it won't have any impact on the schedule or my ability to update.

[Indon]

There's a pretty simple reason that pay comics aren't very successful, and that's supply and demand.

There are already more free webcomics in existence than any given individual could probably read if they devoted every waking minute to reading them. Given that, why pay anything?

Instead, webcomics profit from people who read, enjoy, and buy the t-shirt. Out of even one small circle of friends, I know one (no, wait, actually two) with an 8-bit t-shirt and another with a VG Cats t-shirt.

[kingpain]

Intentions are in the right place Barak. We all love the comic, and I'd like to think we've all bought his game and the books, although SoD has yet to be shipped to my house. But, there are many who, including myself, found out about this comic, read the backstories from #1 on nad fell in love with the characters. If I'd only read the free comic, I highly doubt that I'd have spent the money. For those belittling Barak, it isn't a bad idea, just not one that works well outside of theory.

[Starla]

I don't know how old you are Barak, but your arguement does not suggest you have a lot of experience in economics. You suggest that Rich can live off of 50K a year. I live in San Diego which is is about as expensive to live as New York. My husband works for the post office and makes 50K a year. A third goes to taxes of course and there is no way we can afford to live on his income alone here. 50K is not going to cut it for Rich's expenses if New York is as expensive as San Diego.

Secondly you say you have sold thousands of books. Books you wrote? Other people wrote? Are you a publisher or do you work in retail store like barnes and nobles and your sale quota for the year has been met? How does this qualify you to give advice to a successful businessman with the years of experience that Rich already has. Clearly you have not been reading his website as long as I have or you would have seen all the flaws of your action.

A. Rich avoids the message boards. He will probably never see this message. He has been avoiding the message boards since the comic became popular. The only times he posts is to tell us a new comic is up and he started doing that in year 3 of the comic.


B. When Rich did post it was to stop arguements like this one which would get started when the comic was late in year 3. He made it clear several times that he has his own business plan for this website and he doesn't need or want advice from the fans.

C. The website is called Giant in the Playground because it is a gaming website not the Oots Website. Oots is finite and the reason Rich is not making the whole website about Oots like other webcomics do is because he is focusing on gaming as a whole not just his comic. He has a business plan that is completely separate from your idea and your idea would flop in his business plan. If you had read the news from the beginning as I have you would have known that your idea would be all wrong for this website. He original plan is the same as it is now. Use Oots to draw Gamer fans to this website which is a Gaming website. Making Oots pay only would be like cutting off the head of the golden goose. He will not produce Oots endlessy for years and years, it will end. So a $10 subscription per year would only last as long as Oots does. So that is not a good business plan.

My last point should make it it definitive that your idea would never work for Oots, however if you have a wonderful webcomic of your own that you would like try your business plan on, take your own advice and gain some experience in economics.

[Regneva]

AM I the only one to notice this? :

Giant doesn't have to request membership for the ENTIRE comicline.

He could just finish this story arc and keep all the strips from #1 up to the end of this arc should still be FREE. (I mean, this is how SOD and Origins worked)This way:

1. Advertisement of the comic will still be in place, people will be able to read. But they will have to PAY to read more. Now would you buy that now?

2. A nostalgic lookback won't cost you anything

3. You could still "stumble" on oots and hook up


I still think that the idea is not a very good one. I still support that soon as it goes paid, "alternative" websites will offer oots for free or reduced fees.

I'm pointing this out so that if you going to argue about it, you could take this more realistic approach

[WarriorTribble]

Starla just to note Rich no longer lives in NYC, he moved to somewhere in Pennsylvania I think. Still he lived in Queens not Manhattan so 50k definitely would've been a livable wage. My family lived with that amount, and I'm living on that salary now.

[Gez]

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?
Because he wants to entice me to buy his books? And games? And tee-shirts, and coffee mugs, and whatever else? And because he wants me to plug his comic to other people who may like it, and may end up buying the associated merchandising even if I personally don't?

Yeah, that's why.


I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many.
Exactly. A small percentage of the readers. If the amount of readers decrease, and the percentage remains the same, what's the result? A loss.


As far as people complaining that the comic is late... people complain already.
Of course, they do. This is the Internet, the place where people are complaining that other people on the other side of the world are "wasting too much oxygen" by breathing.

But the complainers are usually silenced by other peoples, notably with the argument that "if you're not happy, you can get the $0 you spent back"... You catching my drift?


If the newest comic is always free, Rich can still attract new fans.
If it was a gag-a-day comic without continuity, yeah. If it's a comic with storylines, though, people may want to catch up and read the archives to know just what the flumph is happening.

Just take a look at any thread here about OotS (or Erfworld): they're full of people arguing and nitpicking and theorizing and and speculating and tossing each other links to the archives to support their points.


Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them.
Yeah, and you know what? The readers aren't the newspapers, they're the newspaper-buyers. So, if you want to make Rich Burlew a cyber-Gary Larson, then you have to argue with your ISP to get them to pay him.


I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it.
They have tried many, and then dropped them. Free archives + shop is the best deal for now.

Go read the essay Scientivore linked to.

[Starla]

Starla just to note Rich no longer lives in NYC, he moved to somewhere in Pennsylvania I think. Still he lived in Queens not Manhattan so 50k definitely would've been a livable wage. My family lived with that amount, and I'm living on that salary now.

Good, but the alledged 50k (based on the assumption that 5,000 people would be willing to pay $10 a year) would not be everlasting since the comic is finite.

Also paying to see the rest of the comic is not going to be everlasting income.

Keep in mind people this comic is a want, not a need. If it is high enough on the "want" list it will work, but for me, I would prefer to buy a book or the game, something that will last longer than a year for my dollars. My needs list is still higher in priority than a lot of my wants.

Also, as "noble" as your claim sounds it really wouldn't make Rich more money. Bootleggers make money off of anything that is not free. If Rich turns the comic into a pay-per-view, it will open the doors to bootleggers to make money off of his site.

Again also, Rich's goal is to make money from the Gaming Website not just from Oots. He has other plans besides Oots. Pay attention to the news and read more carefully please.

[Tolkien_Freak]

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?
He doesn't. Origins and SOD are both pay-for books, as well as the other merchandise in the Shop.


Rich said it wasn't a plea for money, which I took to be donations. This is him charging for content. You buy something.
As I said, you already can buy something.


I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many. Rich would make a lot more money charging for membership on this site.
True, but that large percentage of people not willing to pay for merchandise is also likely to be a large percentage of people not willing to pay for access.


As far as people complaining that the comic is late... people complain already. If the comic is updated 3 times per week at random, again, they have nothing to complain about.
Yes, which is why I'm glad that The Giant posted the latest news announcement. However, if we did pay, especially if The Giant had NOT posted that, more people would complain because they would be paying for something that they had not received yet.


People not wanting to throw their credit card numbers around online. Well, if there are people out there who _never_ buy anything online and refuse to do so at all costs (I have a cousin like this)... join the modern world. Sheesh.
It's a perfectly legitimate concern! Hackers and illegitimate sites are still a VERY large problem, and the world isn't quite modern enough to deal with it yet.
Besides, saying, 'If you don't do this, you're outdated, so :smallyuk: ' isn't much of an argument.


Memberships for people under 18... Aren't there people under 18 with credit cards? I think I've seen a few here and there. Otherwise, get a membership for a present from a relative--again $10 is not a lot of money.
They may be able to pay, but again, they may not be willing to pay. I'm under 18 and I have a debit card, but if this site goes paid-membership, I don't care how good the comic is, I'm not willing to pay for it. Especially considering it was originally designed as a free webcomic.


If the newest comic is always free, Rich can still attract new fans.
If the punchline of the new comic depends entirely on older comics (say, 444's), people will come, read it, and say 'Huh?' and walk away.


The entire site needn't be a pay site, just the comic. Those people who come here for gaming and other forums can still do so.
That is true.


Stress on the Giant. Well, at the moment he has another job. I don't know if he loves his job or what--but if he didn't need to work at that job, that might mean less stress on him. And frankly, the greatest stressor in the world (As the people without jobs can attest to) is money... if Rich was making good money from this, then he wouldn't be as stressed out.
OOTS IS Rich's job. He said so just this week! And he's running his business model the way he wants - if he's too stressed out, he can say, 'I'm taking a break because I'm stressed out', and most of the fans will say, 'Okay, do what you need to do.'


Lastly, other webcomics are free. Yes, but there are many, many examples of sites on the internet that charge a small fee for content (that aren't porn).
They were designed that way, and no one has known them in any different way. OOTS started as free, and if people who have been following it for years and have bought all the books have to start paying for the comic itself, they are going to be pretty angry.


Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them. I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it. I think Rich needs to make a living doing it. Selling t-shirts and books (Where he only makes a percentage of the money spent) is not lucrative enough at the moment.
Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schultz were all newspaper cartoonists - they were paid for their comics, but they had 1) set deadlines and 2) people telling them what they could and couldn't do. The Giant has a lot more freedom than they did.


No one out there would pay $10 for a year? Seriously?
There probably would be a few people who would, but after having experienced OOTS as free, I would be far less willing to.

[WarriorTribble]

Also, as "noble" as your claim sounds it really wouldn't make Rich more money. Bootleggers make money off of anything that is not free. If Rich turns the comic into a pay-per-view, it will open the doors to bootleggers to make money off of his site.What nobility are you refering to? Yes I know he does other things, I bought his card game for starters and seen some of his strips on Dragon Magizine. Oh wait I see... if you read my other post you'd know I'm not defending Barak, just noting that 50k is an ok income esp if one doesn't have kids.

[Starla]

For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?

Have you heard of BuzzComics, TWC, online comics? It is how a lot of people learned about Oots. There are 1000's of free webcomics out there and some of them are very good; as good as Oots in their own way. If people don't have the money set aside to pay for oots they will just find another good comic to be a fan for.


I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many. Rich would make a lot more money charging for membership on this site.

If you have watched Buzz Comics the way my husband and I have you would realize how quickly his fanbase will drop. I have seen it happen to Earthsong when she decided to make her archives unavailable. She provided a summary for new readers, but she wanted her books to sell better. She has dropped from rank 2 to rank 9 in TWC and is rank 8 in Buzz. The comics with Stars next to them have held number one rank for one month. Once a comic gets 3 stars it gets into the comic hall of fame. Oots is the only comic I have seen that held it's fanbase for 3 straight months. We have not seen another comic that has been able to do that, because they don't keep their fans.



Lastly, other webcomics are free. Yes, but there are many, many examples of sites on the internet that charge a small fee for content (that aren't porn).

Can you give some examples of webcomics that are pay-per-view that are successful? I can think of games websites that do it but not comics.



No one out there would pay $10 for a year? Seriously?

I am sure there are, but considering how well Rich's current plan is going, why take the risk?

[Hushdawg]

I think everyone who wants to help fund the comic should do so by purchasing merchandise or just making a straight payment through Paypal to Rich.

Treat it like PBS, if you can send money then do so; but just because you can't doesn't mean you should turn off the TV.

[basilisk 89]

Exactly. It appears that it's quite a big percent.

Ayup. I'm only a week shy of thirteen myself and no one in my family has a credit card. Getting ten dollars is no problem. Paying the ten dollars is the problem.

Also, as stated before, paying for the comic would be a horrible idea, though I like what roosterteeth does. They have Red vs. Blue free, but people can pay 10$ for a yearly membership. In the membership, they get to watch episodes of the shows in High Res (wouldn't work with OotS) and see special comics called the Sponsor-only comics. They post two comics about every other day. One is free, the other for Sponsors only.

Something along the lines of that isn't necessarily a bad idea, I don't think.

[chibibar]

There are many flaws to this idea (as already stated above) but I glance many and may repeat some (my apologies)

How can you guarantee 5000 will pay up? You can't. It is a possibility but not likely. Rich has a good plan and will do what he thinks is the right thing to do. We can never convince him otherwise (plus Rich said he doesn't need financial advice)

By making the comic free Rich HAS generate this much audience. People are BUYING his books and merchandise. I think this is a good plan already. Also The comic is not forever so Rich has to allow to further make products that people will want to buy.

Books like SoD and Origin is a good way to generate revenue. These are NOT available online (and I'll report to Rich is I see any online and I'm sure many others will too) because these are back story.

I know your heart is in the right place but I'm sure Rich can handle this.

[fetty_pet]

When I read the opening title, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!"..... But being a new reader (Well, for a month or so) I didn't know about Rich's health problems. I would pay the $10. Help the guy through. And, I mean, it's $10 dollars, I get $20 a week. I'd readily spare that for him to get well...... And write me more comics :smalltongue:

Seriously, I'll pay if he starts.

[DoomITP]

this is the lamest idea ive EVER heard i feel dumber just reading it. i cannot pay for the comic i just read it cause i enjoy it and its some thing i dont have to pay for that is really good. i think that you would cut the giants fanbase in at least half most likely more. i think this thread should lock and drown.

[Glurf]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I can say that i personally wouldn't pay money for the oots strip as such, while a good strip there's so many other next to equally good strips out there which are free. But that has been brought up time and time again by now.

However, i would be willing to pay for the on the Origins of pc's and SoD and of course any future books which will not be posted in the strip. The only change to them as they are now is that i'd like em to be on the internet as such, with me getting a file sent to me with all the strips in some preferably non-repostable format ( i have no idea how to accomplish this but it's still a wish.)

Some would probably state that this would just enable the books to be spread around the internet a pirated alot. But what keeps people from doing that in the current state? Scanner aren't very hard to get ones hands on after all.


Sorry if this didn't make sense, did my best. :smallconfused:

[Tolkien_Freak]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I can say that i personally wouldn't pay money for the oots strip as such, while a good strip there's so many other next to equally good strips out there which are free. But that has been brought up time and time again by now.

However, i would be willing to pay for the on the Origins of pc's and SoD and of course any future books which will not be posted in the strip. The only change to them as they are now is that i'd like em to be on the internet as such, with me getting a file sent to me with all the strips in some preferably non-repostable format ( i have no idea how to accomplish this but it's still a wish.)

Some would probably state that this would just enable the books to be spread around the internet a pirated alot. But what keeps people from doing that in the current state? Scanner aren't very hard to get ones hands on after all.


Sorry if this didn't make sense, did my best. :smallconfused:

I think I really like that idea.

[Zictor]

Well, most people have explained very well why this kind of business model wouldn't work here.

At the most, maybe some banners from AdSense or maybe donations.

[aberratio ictus]

@ Barak

You still haven't answered the question which books you have written. I'm very interested in finding out (actually, I'm highly sceptical) - and to be honest, you cannot afford to just overlook it over and over again.

It would just make you look like a liar.

[Lucky]

this is the lamest idea ive EVER heard i feel dumber just reading it.
At least he can type so people don't hurt themselves reading poorly written posts.

In other words:
http://wiki.ytmnd.com/images/1/18/Lose.jpg

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I know I'm doing the opposite of what I want, but can we let this thread just die? Seriously.

OotS is a freebie, the books with the extra material, and the books that will NEVER (according to Rich) be posted on the website, and the game is what pays Rich's salary or whatever. OotS is in fact an ongoing advertisment for the rest of the products Rich sells.

I DO pay for my OotS fix by buying two of the books (so far) and I'm debating buying the game, and/or buying either a T-shirt or two, or a coffee mug.

But people, people! The horse is indeed dead. Stop.

[dan_el_hombre]

the giant himself has said he doesnt want your money. he even gave a list of places your money could be put to better use. what he needs he gets from the t-shirts and books and such.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Do you not read anything anything Rich said (on the News page, not the forum)? When a man says he doesn't want your money, don't tell him to take your damn money. It's disrespectful.

[Barak]

My last point and then I'm done and we can all let this die.

For the record, here is what the Giant said, "I want to emphasize that this is NOT a plea for monetary aid; I have very good health insurance these days for exactly this reason. Donating money is not going to change anything about this situation."

The key word here is donating money. He didn't say, please stop buying my books and shirts so that I no longer receive any income. He just doesn't want people to send him donations. I respect that. As I have said before, paying for the site is paying for content, not donating money.

The main point I have heard over and over again (very clearly, and well-stated by a number of folks) is that for the most part webcomics are free and that there are plenty of other options if Rich would decide to charge a nominal fee for membership. People believe that Rich's readership would depart in droves for other, freer webcomics which are just as good as OOTS.

I confess I don't read a lot of webcomics. I've tried, and I've found them pretty boring and lame. OOTS is the only one I really enjoy; perhaps that has inflated my opinion of this strip above the others. (I also have no skill at digital art, so I can't really start my own webcomic) Maybe you guys are right, maybe people wouldn't pay, maybe they'd go elsewhere and readership would suffer.

That makes me pretty sad, frankly. What bothers me about this is that people feel a sense of entitlement to Rich's work. "Screw him if he wants to charge; I'll get my entertainment elsewhere!" A few years ago there was a giant uproar over Kazaa and Napster amounting to pretty much the same thing. We can get it free, therefore we should get it free. Yes we can all get this free. There are other webcomics. I don't believe, however, that we deserve to get it free if Rich doesn't want to give it away. (He has said repeatedly that he won't charge for the strip, I know that, and that's certainly within his rights, I was attempting to persuade him to change his mind with this thread, that's all. He's also free to change his mind.)

I just don't think it's wrong to charge for your work. And I would hope, but again, maybe I'm wrong, that other people would feel the same way. I'm an artist too, (and I'll post the link for the people out there who think I'm lying) and people illegally photocopy my work all the time and I personally lose money every time they do so. They get away with it. I'm not capable of hunting them down. But you know what? That takes money out of my pocket that I am trying to use to support my family.

And no, that's not a stupid idea.

I didn't post this before because I'm not trying to push my own stuff here, and I thought it might invite personal attacks (your work sucks, etc!) but if you're curious, I've published 26 plays. They can be read almost in their entirety online here:

http://www.playscripts.com/author.php3?authorid=426

So that's all I have to say.

[StupidFatHobbit]

do you want Rich to become Alan Moore or maybe Kevin Smith famous bearded reclusive people who get sick alot.

I vote for Rich sharing Alan Moore's beard. It has plenty of room for another two or three users, and this would spread the amount of scary beardedness more evenly over several different writers. The world can only benefit.

[JonathanC]

The books are a better idea, and in fact their existence likely undermines any interest people would have in subscriptions. The business model described by the OP has been tried by other webcomics, and, as people have already pointed out, it has failed miserably. The premium item is the latest strip, not the archives; archives are mainly of interest to new readers.

Which brings me to my second point: charging for archives drives away new readers. So what happens is that a new reader comes to the site, sees the most recent strip, and thinks "huh...it looks like I've come into the middle of a story. Looks good, but I need more info..." and right there, before you've actually made a fan out of them, you ask for 10 dollars. For content that is, from their perspective, unseen. Ten dollars so they can make sense of your "free" strip. Some people might take the chance, but more people will simply walk away, and no comic is so popular that it can afford to actually drive new readers away.

[FdL]

The original poster is wrong in his initial post. And wrong again in his latest post.

To make it short, why don't you let Rich make his own bussiness decisions?
Do you think he needs your ideas for running the webcomic he created and built from scratch to the success that it is today?

You admit that this is the only webcomic you read. And it shows that you know nothing about webcomics and/or how they make money.

So out of respect, I think you shouldn't post things like this, even though your intention seems to be good.

[Otyugh]

I like the fact that it's free, not just for obvious reasons, but also because Rich can update whenever he damn well pleases without having to be concerned with meeting the deadlines of paying customers.

Keep up the good work, Mr. Burlew, and get well soon.

[Demented]

Should OOTS be a pay comic? Doesn't matter to me... I could always just wait around for the books, when I can be bothered to get 'em.

Though, I take some issue with the nature of the initial post...
The title of this thread: "Why OOTS should be a pay comic"
The content of this thread's original post: "Why Rich deserves to be paid for his work"
The content of this thread: "Why OOTS shouldn't be a pay comic"

Now, I was expecting a reason why OOTS should be a pay comic, but I initially didn't see it.

Then it occurred to me. We must assume that, because Rich deserves to be paid, that OOTS should be a pay comic. It makes a vague sort of sense... But to be more precise, let's look at each of the reasons, since, surely, each reason for why Rich deserves to be paid is a reason that OOTS should be a pay comic. Right? That's not logically fallacious, I hope?

Reason 1. "You are trying to make money from this, but you aren't utilizing the single greatest resource you have, which is the internet site."

Reason 2. "... but think of all those other people out there doing what they love and getting paid for it: singers, actors, writers, the occasional garbage man. Those people expect to be paid for their labor, you should too."

Reason 3. "Your time is valuable--running the site, creating the art, thinking of the storyline, all of this is a lot of work. It might prevent you from doing other things you enjoy doing, there is no sin in seeking compensation for your time."

There's also a 4th reason, not exactly listed...
4. "And if I say if anyone out there wouldn't pay for this site, they don't value it enough and good riddance to them. "

Now,

Maybe I'm just cynical.

Maybe I'm just cheap.

Maybe I seek revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

But don't those reasons just seem a little... off?


[Addendum?]
Barak did mention some other reasons in his other posts. They're not so bad.
(Excluding those that are essentially repeats of the main four)
- "if Rich was making good money from this, then he wouldn't be as stressed out. "
- "I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it."
- "Selling t-shirts and books ... is not lucrative enough at the moment."
- "I don't believe, however, that we deserve to get it free if Rich doesn't want to give it away." (Admittedly, more of an IF than a Reason.)

[rosebud]

There used to be (a website design ago) a donation link on the sidebar. You can still see the page:

http://www.giantitp.com/Donate.html

which mentions the desktops you get if you donate a small amount or more. I love the comic and I donated twice because I appreciated the work. I've also gotten books. He no longer has the sidebar link, so it is presumably something he is not interested in.

As many have pointed out, requiring a donation would hurt the fanbase. Someone mentioned Earthsong, a comic I tried to read but was unable to see enough of it to have a clue what it was about and if it was good. Unlike several others that are available online, I've never looked at Earthsong again or bought any of its books.

In contrast, I read and bought all the available books for Inverloch and Dreamland Chronicles. And I've donated to keep Tempts Fate of Goblins alive and show my appreciation. There's several that I read that I would consider buying a book for or making a contribution, but it's nice and important to be available and accessible. Also, money is not the only form of compensation. Having readers, having a community, and getting feedback are all valuable and important to many authors/creators.

And reading comics is not free -- it's an investment of people's time. Between anticipating the comic and the forum, I've wasted, er spent, many hours of my life. If you add up everyone's time and multiply it by their hourly wage, there's probably millions of dollars of time spent. :smallsmile:

[jmsl]

I think if one were to charge for anything, it would be for the latest comic. The archive would be free, but only the donators would get the newest comic right away. Everyone else would have to wait a few weeks. But then imagine the chaos on the forums as some people are discussing things that most people haven't read yet? It would be pretty divisive and some people would probably copy the comics to share with others.

You brought up Napster and Kazaa, but you didn't bring up the biggest music "thieves" of all time: radio. We as "endusers" don't pay a thing to listen to music on the radio (ignoring the new satellite services). We don't have to listen to commercials, and I frequently change stations. And yet, the music industry makes billions. In fact, they make more money when their music is played for free! There have even been scandals involving record companies paying to have their music "stolen" by playing it on radio. How can this possibly work? Well, duh, it's advertising. :smallbiggrin:

If you want your stuff to sell, people have to know it's something they want to buy. Many people won't buy your stuff, because they don't value it enough. Hopefully enough will that it justifies all your hard work. But this comic is the sort of thing that needs exposure. People probably aren't searching Google for "D&D web comic" very often out of a major craving for another one. Limiting access in any fashion out of a well-intentioned desire to be directly reimbursed for your efforts is likely to be self-defeating.

(Proud owner of 3 books and the game and awaiting the 4th)

[Lucky]

You brought up Napster and Kazaa, but you didn't bring up the biggest music "thieves" of all time: radio. We as "endusers" don't pay a thing to listen to music on the radio (ignoring the new satellite services). We don't have to listen to commercials, and I frequently change stations. And yet, the music industry makes billions. In fact, they make more money when their music is played for free! There have even been scandals involving record companies paying to have their music "stolen" by playing it on radio. How can this possibly work? Well, duh, it's advertising. :smallbiggrin:It's not quite that simple. Artists do make money from radio, as radio stations must pay royalty to the artists to play their music. So the artists don't tend to complain all that much.

[Ralfarius]

I would like to propose that if the author of this comic were "making good money" for it, he would not be less stressed. In fact, I suspect he would feel a great deal more stress. Because people paying in advance means he basically has unearned revenue. To earn that money he would have to produce comics within a certain time frame. To meet his now paid-for deadlines, he would have to drop other projects (which I imagine are in part for his own enjoyment), and a particularly bad illness flareup would leave him dropping the ball for paying customers. Being under the gun for people who have paid you in advance is not exactly the ideal environment for reducing stress.

I would also refute the argument that selling merchandise isn't lucrative enough. Mr. Burlew has suggested that his current method of business operations is acceptably lucrative. Being that he can currently live off his efforts without a charge to view his comic, it simply doesn't make much sense to give up his steady growth of readership (and proportionally greater merchandise sales) on an unproven cashgrab. Because that's what it is, really. Not a business model or plan, so much as a gamble to see who will swallow having a once free service suddenly being pay-to-read.

[Zictor]

Ok

Everybody please stop posting, let this thread die

[Haedrian]

Didn't bother reading it all... but just to point out how easily this fails.

Right Click > Save Image As

There you go, you have your own illegal copy of a paid comic, now to put it up on an illegal site/P2P connecting thing, and BAM...

.: Failure

[Tao]

While I'm far from a regular poster around here, I think my story would be similar to others.

I was directed to this site by a friend of mine, not to long ago, a long time after the comic had first started. I shrugged at first, passing it off as just another webcomic without really giving it a look. After being prodded for a while I gave in and started reading from the beginning, and was pleasantly surprised to find it was of a much higher quality than I had expected. So, after a couple of months of faithful reading, I have decided to invest in the full set of paperbacks, and after witnessing firsthand the comics consistent level of quality I am more than happy Rich is receiving my money after such wonderful work.

In short, if I had encountered a scheme of 'All that's free is the latest comic, pay if you want the rest', this wonderful comic would never have gotten a second look from me for a couple of reasons:

Firstly and most importantly, I have no intention of coming into a story halfway through. If I had not seen the character development throughout the last few hundred strips, that single strip I could see for free would be absolutely meaningless to me. Quite frankly, if that was all I could see I would simply shrug it off as another webcomic and carry on without a second thought, and I am almost certain that others would do the same, especially now that the strip is so deep into its central plot.

Secondly, I myself am generally uncomfortable with the concept of handing over money to receive a product of which I had seen only the barest sliver, especially over the internet. If I needed to pay too see the comic without witnessing the overall quality of the strip? Wouldn't have happened. For all I would know, the previous 300 comics could be rubbish (Of course, I know now that they're not, but that's beside the point :smalltongue: ).

Of course, I'm aware that a potential new reader could choose to simply keep reading from the point he arrived at onwards, but honestly? It's a question of marketing. If you tried to sell a book to a potential customer by showing them a single page from halfway through the book and offering to show them the next page if they came back in three days time, do you think you'd snare them as an ongoing customer? If you do, best of luck to you.

Of course, the above is nothing but my opinion, but I honestly believe that moving OOTS to a pay-for-view comic would be an absolutely horrendous business move.

[Gez]

file sent to me with all the strips in some preferably non-repostable format ( i have no idea how to accomplish this but it's still a wish.)

That's called DRM and it's a huuuuuge pain in the place-where-paladins-put-their-sticks-in, because the paranoid software required for that to work tend to err on the side of assuming you're a pirate. Oh, and you have to have the correct software, too. Which means you're out of luck 90% of the time if you're not using the latest Windows version pushed by Microsoft, since the people who make DRM tech are people won't don't care about customers' convenience. Like these "protected CDs" that can't be read at all on most CD players.

The better solution is watermarking. If, say, your name and credit card number is embedded subtly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography) in each image file, it'll prevent illegal sharing much more efficiently. :smallbiggrin:


Yes we can all get this free. There are other webcomics. I don't believe, however, that we deserve to get it free if Rich doesn't want to give it away.

Yeah yeah. If Rich takes OotS away, more power for him! If all webcomic authors take their stuff away, more power for them! I'll just stop reading them.

[gooddragon1]

The reason why it shouldn't as others have stated before: The giant should not be pressured by others to publish his work, and with whatever health conditions he has it would be unrealistic to ask it of him.

[Tleilaxu_Ghola]

In world of free, quality web comics, this is just one of many. Why the hell would I pay for something others offer for free? This is not the only abstractly drawn, story-based webcomic with gamer content in existence by a long shot. If I had to pay for viewing, it'd stop immediately, along with any urge to buy the merchandise associated with the comic. Lets face it, comics have always been a free commodity. The way comic-makers make money is to use their comic as an advertising plat form for the related products that they sell. Now, one could argue that since this comic caters to a small niche community, that a subscription service, such has been proposed, would be viable, similar to the myriad of specialty cable channels that now exist. The problem here is the simple fact that no other webcomics that I am aware of actually charge a subscription fee. There is also no conglomerate corporation bundling webcomic packages to the customer. In short there is no infrastructure or precedent for such a marketing paradigm. Charging a subscription fee would probably be disastrous.


Also, all these sympathetic QQ threads need to stop. Do any of you people actually know the author personally? If not, then why are you offering sympathy for something which is strictly a personal matter? Rich Burlew appreciation threads? What is this, some kind of shrine to the author? If you appreciated the comic, buy his stuff. Simple as that. No need to offer up useless sentiments and blow sunshine up his butt.

[gooddragon1]

Ghola!?! You post here? I thought you just resided on the theoretical optomization boards... Well nice to see you I guess. (<-Psionx)

EDIT: And good luck beating pun-pun I'm with you on that.

/On topic
The reason that so many get well soon comics exist is probably as a way of indirectly pressuring Rich into putting up the comic in a more polite way. There may of course be people who do this for other reasons, but deep down some of us know this to be truth. BTW ghola the end of your post made me laugh a bit for some reason.

[Ronfar]

If one wanted to charge for a webcomic, the best thing to do might be to charge for earlier access to new content. Each day, the free site would have the comic from, say, three months ago, and the pay site would have the latest comic. That way, if you were desperate to continue reading the story and didn't want to be three months behind, you'd pay the subscription fee, and if you didn't want to pay, you'd still have all the archives up to three months from the present.
http://www.starcitygames.com uses this model to sell access to its "Premium" articles on Magic: the Gathering strategy. Premium articles less than three months old are free. Much Magic: the Gathering strategy loses value over time (as people adjust to new discoveries); waiting generally means that you don't get as much benefit from reading the articles, but you can still read them eventually.

I'm not saying that this is an appropriate business model for Rich (charging for content at all comes with certain obligations), but it might be the best way to sell a webcomic without alienating potential fans. Then again, I once went and donated $200 to a free webcomic in a fit of what must have been temporary insanity, so I'm not one to look to for business advice. ;)

[Indon]

Right Click > Save Image As


Clever coding can disable this for most major web browsers.

[Krytha]

^ Yes but the people who do this aren't your average tech-ok people. They know their way around much better than that.

[Reinkai]

I've read the forums a lot, but I've never felt the need to post. I made this account specifically for this instance, but maybe I'll post more in the future. Either way, don't be surprised you've never seen me.

In my opinion, not only is this idea unpractical, it's insulting. He's offering a free webcomic, has not asked for any money, and has actively said he didn't want donations. In my mind, it's like giving the community a gift, and you're trying to tip him for it. That's insulting. You really should be ashamed of yourself. Even if this was a viable idea, you think he wouldn't have thought of it himself?

Edit: I should add that I would pay for this, but I find this topic horribly insulting and I'm honestly surprised that it hasn't been commented on and closed by a moderator or administrator.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE let this thread just die, or be locked!

Every argument that can be made for, or against, pay-per-view has been run out, beaten like the dead horse that it is, and tossed into the rubbish bin! Rich has found the economic model he likes, and let him run with it as he sees fit!

This thread has become as annoying as the "Rich's work ethic sucks! How dare he take a break! I need my OotS Fix!" thread that was posted earlier today!

[Gez]

Clever coding can disable this for most major web browsers.

I've been able to bypass each and everyone of these silly thing using nothing more complicated than common Firefox extensions; and even if they fail I still have the all-powerful, unbeatable weapon: the Print Screen key. :smalltongue:

[Reinkai]

I felt I had something to say that hadn't been said yet as far as I could see, why would you feel the need to tell me that I couldn't say it? I feel that a moderator should delete this thread for the sheer rudeness, but that doesn't mean that as long as it isn't, everyone isn't entitled to their own opinion on it. This topic is on the front page anyway, you don't have to read any new replies. Just ignore it.

On top of that, your own post not only bumped it, but incited more posts.

Edit: And people are currently discussing things in it, so obviously the potential for talk hasn't been wiped out.

[EvilElitest]

I didn't figure it would be popular point.

Because this would change the site as we know it in a major and negative manner?


For those of you who say I WILL QUIT if it goes membership... why do you expect this to be free? Why should Rich work for your amusement for nothing?
well,
1. If they quite, less buyers for rich
2. well, considering it is a webcomic, and that it has been free and is an advertizement for his products, yes
3. He doesn't work for nothing, other wise this wouldn't be his day job


Rich said it wasn't a plea for money, which I took to be donations. This is him charging for content. You buy something.
You mean the shop option? that is what were buying. the comic is ment for people to enjoy and to get more people on the sight. Think about, if Rich has 15 thousand readers, that is why he is invited to gencon ect. so much. If he had less readers, he would have less influlence and pouplarity


I honestly do not think it would reduce the fanbase that much--I wonder what percentage of people who read this comic regularly have actually bought merchandise? Probably not that many. Rich would make a lot more money charging for membership on this site.
dude, about 1 percent buys the merchandise. I've never bought anything from Rich because i don't have hte money. Also, he would lose plenty of fans, name me one webcomic that pays that is considered to be extremly pouplar.



As far as people complaining that the comic is late... people complain already. If the comic is updated 3 times per week at random, again, they have nothing to complain about.
Ok
1. if rich made us pay, he would have to update more reguarally and be late less
2. People complain, but the counter is "Its free, stop whining." If it is not free, then they have a point.



People not wanting to throw their credit card numbers around online. Well, if there are people out there who _never_ buy anything online and refuse to do so at all costs (I have a cousin like this)... join the modern world. Sheesh.
Wow, good thing your not insensitive.


Memberships for people under 18... Aren't there people under 18 with credit cards? I think I've seen a few here and there. Otherwise, get a membership for a present from a relative--again $10 is not a lot of money.
Does the words lower class mean anything to you


If the newest comic is always free, Rich can still attract new fans.
a single comic, often out of context is meanless.


The entire site needn't be a pay site, just the comic. Those people who come here for gaming and other forums can still do so.
So the comic charge would just be their to generally piss people off?


Stress on the Giant. Well, at the moment he has another job. I don't know if he loves his job or what--but if he didn't need to work at that job, that might mean less stress on him. And frankly, the greatest stressor in the world (As the people without jobs can attest to) is money... if Rich was making good money from this, then he wouldn't be as stressed out.
Dude, he is sick. this is his job, he is his boss.


Lastly, other webcomics are free. Yes, but there are many, many examples of sites on the internet that charge a small fee for content (that aren't porn).
name some.

Nobody expected Gary Larson, Bill Watterson, and Charles Schulz to give away their comics for nothing. Originally, newspapers paid them.
Because they worked for newspaper, different genre


I think that webcomics are the next generation and we need to find a model where people can make a living doing it. I think Rich needs to make a living doing it. Selling t-shirts and books (Where he only makes a percentage of the money spent) is not lucrative enough at the moment.
Wow, what a naive theory. If we are denyed something that we have always been given throughout hte history of the comic, they what do we do when it is taken away. So yes, he would lose member ship


No one out there would pay $10 for a year? Seriously?
Ummmm, most people here.
from,
EE

[CliveStaples]

I wouldn't mind seeing a pay-site version of OOTS pop up, maybe a members-only part of the site with additional content. I believe Ctrl+Alt+Del has done something similar, I'm not sure. But I doubt very much whether Mr. Burlew's business model would ever abandon the free bits. It's like the drug dealer who gives you the first gram for free--minus the negative connotations, naturally. He's got to get you interested.

[tiggermonaut]

Regarding the "why do people think they deserve something for nothing" issue:
I would suggest that most readers don't actually feel this way; in fact, I haven't seen anyone on this thread claim that Rich has some sort of moral obligation to produce a free comic. The people who say they'd leave if the comic ceased to be free are just stating (admittedly, sometimes very emphatically and IN ALL CAPS ;) ) what kinds of things they are and aren't willing to spend money on.
Similarly, every time I walk by an ice cream shop in my neighborhood, I resist the urge to run in and buy ice cream because I only have a finite amount of money and ice cream is not something I can't live without. On the other hand, if they were to suddenly start handing out free ice cream cones (possibly in the hopes of enticing people to buy the pint or quart containers), I'd certainly take them up on the offer. I don't think that I *deserve* the ice cream, or that it *should* be free, but if it is free, I'm certainly going to eat it. :)

[Finn Solomon]

Someone always has to come along and spoil it for everyone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[The Extinguisher]

tiggermonaut, that was the best and most delicious analogy yet. :D

[I don't know]

Are there even any comparably successful micropayment comics out there?

For myself, I might pay for oots if I saw it in a bookstore - certainly a year's content for $10! But I don't like having to trust those shady online pay services.


Clever coding can disable this for most major web browsers.- If you're thinking of the common javascript solution - plain old drag-and-drop still works, and you'll be annoying the crap out of anyone who wants to scroll by clicking the scroll wheel :smallyuk:

[Jayabalard]

Clever coding can disable this for most major web browsers.nope. It takes less than a second for me to get around anything done in javascript, and you can even get at images in flash if you know what you're doing. Besides, nothing prevents people from taking a screenshot of the image and then cropping it down to the appropriate size. If someone can view an image on the internet, then they can make a copy it.