wealth by level

[geekintheground]

hard and fast rule, or more of a guideline?
my dm see's it as a hard and fast rule and puts us "in debt" to the party if we find a magic weapon. it hasnt become too big of an issue, so its fine as is. but it got me thinking how the playground plays it.

[TOZ]

I've always seen it as a guideline. If your party is behind or ahead, encounter design should take that into consideration. But you don't need to adhere to it as a strict rule, otherwise you start introducing metagame events to increase or reduce wealth. Such events can ruin immersion for some players.

[Genth]

How does your GM put you 'In debt' to the party? If it's just a behind-the-scenes guide, and your GM just doesn't give you any more loot until your level has 'caught up', that makes sense to me. It's supposed to be a guideline for the GM, and a tool for character creation, or at least that's how I use it.

So if you found a magic weapon that put you over WBL, I wouldn't force you to hand over other magic items to bring you back down, you'd just find your next few adventures a bit... dry.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How does your DM handle magic item creation and looting from odd sources, such as the adamantine door he never intended you to pull off the frame? If a character spends feats and XP in crafting the items he wants, does he count that against you? I mean, you're boosting your WBL, but you're spending other resources to do so. That, and you used ingenuity to literally sell everything not nailed down (and in some cases, pulled the nails and stole them, too), which is what adventurers are supposed to do.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's explicitly called out in the section where it's outlined to be a guideline. Even trying to stick to it hard and fast does serious damage to verisimilitude.

It is, however, important to try to cleave to it loosely. The way the system is designed presumes that the PC's will be fairly close to WBL.

I generally shoot for within 10% of WBL counting only permanent and semi-permanent magic items (read: arms, armor, wands, and staves mostly) and let more liquid or less mobile assests go -way- beyond so long as they don't contribute to the PC's directly applicable combat power. Counting a castle against WBL is kind of a d-bag move.

[Tiktakkat]

WBL itself is not the biggest issue.
It is individual item value.

The DMG guidelines, and pretty much all published adventure treasure, is too broad, and leads to too many instances of one item representing 50%+ of wealth, that results in destructive power swings.

The MIC item levels are much more stringent, and put a much greater damper on power swings. I have found I can get at least 5 more levels of stable play by being obsessive about those limits. The problem is, they REALLY cut down on what is available, threatening to reach the point of stagnation induced boredom.

[PersonMan]

The DMG guidelines, and pretty much all published adventure treasure, is too broad, and leads to too many instances of one item representing 50%+ of wealth, that results in destructive power swings.

Funny thing is, they seem to have been at least somewhat aware of this, as they set a rule that you can't have a single item worth 50% or more of your WBL when making a character.

[Khedrac]

It is also worth noting that if you use a consumable item your wealth (by level) goes down because you no longer have the item - something you might want to point out to DMs that track WBL too closely.

[Gemini476]

It is also worth noting that if you use a consumable item your wealth (by level) goes down because you no longer have the item - something you might want to point out to DMs that track WBL too closely.

It's also worth noting that they actually took this into account in the actual WBL tables - there's a whole sidebar explaining the thing in the section about random treasure generation. IIRC level 20 WBL including consumables is something like 860k?

All the Wealth by Level charts are doing is taking the average random treasure from 13.33 CR-equivalent encounters per level, dividing it by four, removing an eighth or so for consumables, and then calling it a day. It's perfectly alright to end up with a motherlode that pushes an individual character up for a while - those random charts are pretty random, although not quite like that guy whose OD&D first-level Elf Magic-User found a Staff of the Archmagi!
It just means that later on the DM should adjust the treasure down a bit, maybe. Or not. Law of Big Numbers.

Also, if you include an encounter that doesn't give treasure you should maybe include one later that gives double treasure, etc. etc.


Really, the whole WBL thing is mostly just there for the reason it says that it's there - so you can generate a high-level PC with level-appropriate magic gear. By the way, the limit is for 25% of the total WBL per item, not 50%.

[Calthropstu]

only time I follow wealth by level when running is if I am running a module

[Big Fau]

It's a guideline, but some classes are nigh unplayable without it. And, unfortunately, it is cripplingly restrictive towards noncasters trying to use TWFing (or simply having a ranged weapon on backup).

[Calthropstu]

It's a guideline, but some classes are nigh unplayable without it. And, unfortunately, it is cripplingly restrictive towards noncasters trying to use TWFing (or simply having a ranged weapon on backup).

Like I said, I ignore it.

I put a bunch of treasure in my campaigns. If the PCs find all of it, they're going to be at about 3-4 time wbl. They almost never do. If they find almost none of it, they are going to be at 1/4 wbl.

What they find they find. What they don't they don't.

[Willie the Duck]

The MIC item levels are much more stringent, and put a much greater damper on power swings. I have found I can get at least 5 more levels of stable play by being obsessive about those limits. The problem is, they REALLY cut down on what is available, threatening to reach the point of stagnation induced boredom.

On the other hand, I've found that the MIC slightly downshifted the cost of 'benefits other than the big 6.' In the DMG, things like being able to breath in a vacuum or other randomness often cost 20-40k gp (or as an example, the trident of fish command adds ~16k to the cost of a +1 trident to allow you to charm fish). MIC toned that down a bit.

So already, we have multiple sources with slightly differing cost structures. To hew too closely to the WBL without acknowledging such variance is like pitting your party against NPC parties and expecting the all monk and fighter party to be as big a challenge as the druid/wizard/cleric/psion party.

[lytokk]

Guideline. My players like to use it to decide who gets first pick when it comes to dividing up the treasure from a dungeon crawl, and I check the player wealth every once in a while to try and keep the characters closeish in value and useablity to each other.

[BowStreetRunner]

...taking the average random treasure from 13.33 CR-equivalent encounters per level, dividing it by four, removing an eighth or so for consumables, and then calling it a day.
So what happens when you have a DM who provides appropriate treasure including maintaining a decent balance of consumables and a PC dies during an encounter that the party defeats, but the player ends up creating a new character? This is the most common situation I've encountered that tends to throw off WBL. Unless the dead PC was completely vaporized magic items and all, their property just got added to the party treasury. Add a new PC with items and WBL just got skewed.

One DM I know always has the deceased PC's belongings shipped to his/her family, but what do other DMs do?

There are other ways this gets all skewed - players who keep selling off items to buy the items they want. Some DMs may just make the exchange at full value, but most of the ones I've played with give you half the value for items you sell and charge full value for what you buy. Another is the player who spends all his gold on expendables. Those potions, scrolls and wands eventually get used up and they were bought with gp from the part of the treasure not intended to be consumables.

Really, WBL absolutely has to be a guideline. Anyone who makes it a hard fast rule is eventually going to run into problems.

[ComaVision]

I make sure the group gets enough wealth but how they divide it and what they do with it is entirely their problem. As a result, one of the games I DM has a guy that claims most of the loot they come across and is way above WBL while everyone else must be below WBL. It's their choice.

When PCs die, I don't let the rest of the group take their loot. I'm straight-forward that it's a meta-game rule to preserve balance but it's usually justified in game as Wee Jas severely punishes anyone that loots from the dead bodies of their allies. I have made exceptions where the rest of the group is under WBL, or has a money sink. (As an example, a character died in my pirate game so their wealth was put into the ship's funds.)

I try to guess what items in loot will be sold versus bought so I have a rough idea of the actual value of the loot given out. I'm usually right so my system seems to work pretty well for me.

[dascarletm]

Making it a hard-fast rule also removes player agency. If the group seeks to increase their wealth, intentionally fighting creatures that have higher treasure values (which are usually harder challenges), then they should be rewarded.

[Tiktakkat]

Funny thing is, they seem to have been at least somewhat aware of this, as they set a rule that you can't have a single item worth 50% or more of your WBL when making a character.

No, they set a "guideline" that when creating characters above 1st level no item should be more than 50% of your WBL.
That does nothing to address what to do when developing characters through adventures, with items determined by random roll, or in adventures they published, which theoretically went through editing with that guideline in mind but don't seem to be aware of said guideline.

Thus the problem - the system is inherently flawed such that the people who wrote it cannot even follow it.
So then they tried to stealth errata it, which creates a persistent disconnect between expectations and presentation.


On the other hand, I've found that the MIC slightly downshifted the cost of 'benefits other than the big 6.' In the DMG, things like being able to breath in a vacuum or other randomness often cost 20-40k gp (or as an example, the trident of fish command adds ~16k to the cost of a +1 trident to allow you to charm fish). MIC toned that down a bit.

And even with the big 6 they made a stealth errata to make those more cost effective and available.
Clearly they recognized the problem with the system.


So already, we have multiple sources with slightly differing cost structures. To hew too closely to the WBL without acknowledging such variance is like pitting your party against NPC parties and expecting the all monk and fighter party to be as big a challenge as the druid/wizard/cleric/psion party.

That leads to another WBL issue - NPC treasure.
NPCs get treasure way above the limit for encounters of their EL according to the chart.
On average, 3 NPCs carry sufficient equipment to equal the entire WBL gain for a level.
Add more encounters, particularly NPC encounters, and WBL is completely blown away.

[Eladrinblade]

hard and fast rule, or more of a guideline?
my dm see's it as a hard and fast rule and puts us "in debt" to the party if we find a magic weapon. it hasnt become too big of an issue, so its fine as is. but it got me thinking how the playground plays it.

It's supposed to be a guideline. It's the average expected treasure generated from rolls.

[geekintheground]

How does your DM handle magic item creation and looting from odd sources, such as the adamantine door he never intended you to pull off the frame? If a character spends feats and XP in crafting the items he wants, does he count that against you? I mean, you're boosting your WBL, but you're spending other resources to do so. That, and you used ingenuity to literally sell everything not nailed down (and in some cases, pulled the nails and stole them, too), which is what adventurers are supposed to do.

we dont do crafting because theres always a convenient time-sensitive mission (not sure if thats the case for all published adventures, or just the ones we play but *shrug*). the adamantine door would count against WBL im pretty sure

[Gemini476]

No, they set a "guideline" that when creating characters above 1st level no item should be more than 50% of your WBL.
That does nothing to address what to do when developing characters through adventures, with items determined by random roll, or in adventures they published, which theoretically went through editing with that guideline in mind but don't seem to be aware of said guideline.

Thus the problem - the system is inherently flawed such that the people who wrote it cannot even follow it.
So then they tried to stealth errata it, which creates a persistent disconnect between expectations and presentation.



And even with the big 6 they made a stealth errata to make those more cost effective and available.
Clearly they recognized the problem with the system.

The system wasn't written to be balanced - it was written to give you a random assortment of treasure that increased in quantity and quality as the dangers got higher.

It wasn't until later in 3E's life that they started to go towards having all encounters in modules have a CR equal to the average party level - the DMG even says that 20% are supposed to be of a CR higher than that, and that 5% should outright by CR+5 or more.

Also, major magic items come online at CR11 and include everything from a Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds to, theoretically, a scroll with six Wishes. (Literally 1.8 sextillionth of a percent for that.)

Remember, this is the team of designers who used the iconics listed in Enemies and Allies as their pregen playtesting characters.


That leads to another WBL issue - NPC treasure.
NPCs get treasure way above the limit for encounters of their EL according to the chart.
On average, 3 NPCs carry sufficient equipment to equal the entire WBL gain for a level.
Add more encounters, particularly NPC encounters, and WBL is completely blown away.
NPC treasure is three times the standard treasure for their CR. Basically, they're worth as much as a dragon of equal CR would be.

Which kind of makes sense, given how if they have the appropriate items they're probably stronger than a dragon of equal CR.

Quote the DMG, p.55:

The gear that NPCs carry serves as the bulk of their treasure. The average value of an NPC’s gear is listed on Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value, and examples of what specific gear a character of a given class and level would have are in the sample NPC descriptions in Chapter 4. NPCs may have treasure in addition to their gear, at your discretion, but an NPC’s gear is already worth about three times the average value of a treasure of his or her level. Defeating NPC foes brings about great reward for treasure-seekers, but since the gear is mostly magic that the NPC can use against the characters (some of which is one-use), it all evens out.
As flawed as the game is, it's still worth reading the DMG to figure out how it was actually intended to work.



So what happens when you have a DM who provides appropriate treasure including maintaining a decent balance of consumables and a PC dies during an encounter that the party defeats, but the player ends up creating a new character? This is the most common situation I've encountered that tends to throw off WBL. Unless the dead PC was completely vaporized magic items and all, their property just got added to the party treasury. Add a new PC with items and WBL just got skewed.

One DM I know always has the deceased PC's belongings shipped to his/her family, but what do other DMs do?

There are other ways this gets all skewed - players who keep selling off items to buy the items they want. Some DMs may just make the exchange at full value, but most of the ones I've played with give you half the value for items you sell and charge full value for what you buy. Another is the player who spends all his gold on expendables. Those potions, scrolls and wands eventually get used up and they were bought with gp from the part of the treasure not intended to be consumables.

Really, WBL absolutely has to be a guideline. Anyone who makes it a hard fast rule is eventually going to run into problems.
The DMG actually covers that on page 42, in the "Character Death" section of the "Using the Rules" chapter:

If the new character is replacing an old PC, reduce the treasure amount by whatever the old PC leaves behind. For example, if a player creates a new 3rd-level druid because her 4th-level druid died, she can just pick up the old PC’s gear and use it, rather than getting a gear allowance from you. But if the player makes a 3rd-level rogue instead, the gear of a 4th-level druid won’t be as useful. If the party sells the druid’s gear for 1,000 gp, give the new 3rd-level rogue a gear allowance of 1,700 gp so the character will have a total of 2,700 gp in equipment. If the party instead buries the druid with her equipment, give the rogue 2,700 gp worth of equipment.

Basically, making a new PC never adds wealth. It's just there to bring the new character up-to-speed, and if there's already a set of treasure available from the old PC then it's not needed.