Is high level Cleric awful ?

[BlacKnight]

I noticed that the dominion spells for the cleric are granted only until the 9th level.
Not only this, but the spell list shrinks more and more, until there are only 4 spells at level 8 and 9.
And if you already have a wizard in the party you don't really need such spells (there is any useful spell at level 8 other than holy aura ?).
Class features aren't really exciting (they are more a numerical upgrade of basic features) except the lv 17 dominion feature (and only some of them).

So my question is: is the cleric an amazing class at lower levels, that becomes bad and boring at higher levels ?
There are good reasons to go on with the cleric after the 10th level ? It isn't better to make a cleric/sorcerer or something similar ?

[CantigThimble]

1) Harm/Heal, Planar Ally, Firestorm, Conjure Celestial, Earthquake, Antimagic Field

2) There are really no good multiclasses for clerics. They pretty much have everything they need in their own class and dips don't really mean much to them. Sorcerer is probably the only one that gives them anything they might want and it really pales in comparison to those (literally) earth shattering high level spells. Plus clerics probably won't have much charisma.

While the lack of domain spells seems like a downside they only get 1/day of all the higher level spells anyway so it's pretty irrelevant.

[JellyPooga]

One feature; Divine Intervention.

The higher your level, the more reliable it gets and it's basically your "get out of jail free" card. It might come with some caveats, but not even Wish has the same potential to invoke GM fiat to help out the party. For that, if nothing else, the Cleric is an invaluable ally in high level play.

[Levistej]

In my experiance as a cleric biased player I can't stress enough how well some of the iconic lower level cleric spells scale. A high level spiritual weapon or spirit guardians is the ultimate force of havoc on the battlefield. I love playing tanks and in this edition clerics are truly great at it if you have the mindset.
I played both a nature and a tempest cleric for quite some time and i got to say that the level 6 nature domain reaction ability + bonus action spiritual weapon + concentration on spirit guardians + dragging foes back to you with thorn whip never gets old, and yo've got your whole turn covered and every instance of possible pc actions covered.

The tempest played similiar but I would relish every oportunity to upcast a high level shatter.

[BlacKnight]

Harm/heal, Firestorm, Planar Ally are good. Conjure Celestial is a little limited but still useful.
Earthquake and Antimagic Field seems too situational too me.
Level 6-7 spells aren't bad. The problem is that lv 8-9 spells are so few and bad that I have little urge to take them.

There aren't many good option for multiclass, that's true. But the high level spells seem so undewhelming that even twinning lower level spells looks like a better alternative. Any other class has better 9th level spells than the Cleric. :smallfrown:

[MrStabby]

There are some pretty great effects. Hallow for example in mid to late game, if you have the money, lets your cleric make their mark on the world. You get to found your own temples, your own sacred sites - which i think is pretty cool. Scrying effects never get old. Forbidance likewise can set perfect traps for certain types of enemy.

But yeah, in general the higher level spells are not as good as the wizards

[PeteNutButter]

The shrinking spell slots are equal accross all classes and no subclass grants spells past 5th lvl spells, paladin, Druid, warlock all the same limit.

Wizards get a nice feature at 14 but otherwise are the same with a different spell list. Cleric spells are just about as strong while you are a lot hardier and can heal. My high level party sank a ton of gold into the cleric's casting heroes feast before big fights.

[Finieous]

The problem is that lv 8-9 spells are so few and bad that I have little urge to take them.

You only ever cast 1/day at that level. The other spells give you some options for campaign-defining stuff, but if you just want to win high-level combats, holy aura and mass heal are amazing. Your party getting advantage on all saves and disadvantage on all attacks against them, plus a one action, instantaneous 700 hit point heal are fairly potent...

[Flashy]

It isn't awful, it's just really generic. Losing access to regular specialist class features and domain spells after 10th level means that most of your late game progression is standard buff-y heal-y cleric options. This is less noticeable if you're playing war or life and more noticeable if you're playing something with a more unusual emphasis like light, nature or knowledge.

[SillyPopeNachos]

There are really no good multiclasses for clerics. They pretty much have everything they need in their own class and dips don't really mean much to them. Sorcerer is probably the only one that gives them anything they might want and it really pales in comparison to those (literally) earth shattering high level spells.

A Cleric/Fighter 12/8 or 10/10 is on-par with a paladin, and 1 or two levels of monk gives them some neat hand-to-hand combat options.

[Specter]

It depends on what you want to do. If raw damage is wanted, then rarely is it good, but for healing, for example, Life Domain's late feature is the smash.

About multiclass, again, it depends on your domain. Trickery begs for Rogue, and War begs for a martial class, for instance.

[CursedRhubarb]

two levels of monk gives them some neat hand-to-hand combat options.

This led to picturing the standard walking-tin-can cleric letting out a warcy as it's armer falls away with a thunderous bang before they go all Bruce Lee on enemies. 😂

[djreynolds]

Playing a life cleric, they are very good.

And snagging elf or dwarf as your race, just to expand your weapon options as all I find are magic swords. So you could grab a level of fighter for weapons or even barbarian.

But a high level cleric is very good, and the life cleric can really keep death at bay at 17th level and on.

You have just enough in ASI to max out wisdom, grab resilient con, and get your strength to a respectable 16-18, or grab magic initiate for shillelagh and PAM, just to make your divine smite something you can regularly use. I figure 2 ASI for wisdom, 1 for resilient con, and 2 ASI for strength, or 1 for magic initiate and 1 for PAM.

Very good class and the spells are awesome

[SharkForce]

not boring or bad.

but it doesn't get *more* exciting in the same way that other casters typically get, i would say.

a level 18 cleric probably plays fairly similar to a level 11 cleric. you have a few more spell slots, a few more prepared spells, etc, but mainly, there aren't a lot of world-altering spells in the same way that a wizard might look forward to. yet.

that doesn't mean they're bad or boring, because they already had enough to make them interesting before, and their options do scale.

[poolio]

It depends on what you want to do. If raw damage is wanted, then rarely is it good, but for healing, for example, Life Domain's late feature is the smash.

About multiclass, again, it depends on your domain. Trickery begs for Rogue, and War begs for a martial class, for instance.

Shoot i got excited for a sec about the prospects of the multi group attacking abilities of a war cleric/hunter ranger, unfortunately after checking on it, both hord breaker and divine strike are only once per turn, they work well together i guess, but the fact you can't use them with extra attack and the war priest bonus attack kinda dampens the it :smallfrown:

[gkathellar]

One feature; Divine Intervention.

The higher your level, the more reliable it gets and it's basically your "get out of jail free" card. It might come with some caveats, but not even Wish has the same potential to invoke GM fiat to help out the party. For that, if nothing else, the Cleric is an invaluable ally in high level play.

On the contrary, Divine Intervention is the single best reason not to take cleric past 9th level. It's a broken "ability" no matter how you slice it - it might as well be named Roll For DM Fiat - one of the laziest pieces of design I've ever seen, and best of all it has nothing to do with anything else the cleric is good at. Keeping it far away from your game is an excellent reason not to take Cleric 10+.


This led to picturing the standard walking-tin-can cleric letting out a warcy as it's armer falls away with a thunderous bang before they go all Bruce Lee on enemies. ��

OH SNAP (http://imgur.com/gallery/vVviep8)

[RulesJD]

Depends on what you think is "awful".


Is a high level Cleric effective?

Absolutely! Up-casting Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon is one of the most terrifyingly effective combat tactics that works in 99% of situations and against 99% of enemies.

Is a high level Cleric one-dimensional?

Absolutely! And here-in lies the problem of a stupendously small Cleric spell list. While SG + SW is probably the most versatile and effective combo in the game, it's also pretty much all you'll end up doing because it is so damn effective.

So basically yes, but with the caveat that you might not enjoy playing one.

[Merudo]

Depends on what you think is "awful".


Is a high level Cleric effective?

Absolutely! Up-casting Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon is one of the most terrifyingly effective combat tactics that works in 99% of situations and against 99% of enemies.



Isn't that a strong argument in favor of spell caster dips?

Cleric 9/Divination Wizard 2 gives the same spell slots (so upcasting spirit guardians + spiritual weapon is still fine), but you also have access to Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Booming Blade, Arcane Recovery, etc on top of the really powerful Portent Ability.

Cleric 9/Sorcerer 3 gives Sorcerous Origin and Metamagics (Quickened Bless! Long-Range/Heightened Bestow Curse!)

Cleric 9/Bard 2 gives Bardic Inspiration, Jack of all Trades, & Song of Rest. Jack of all Trades is especially good for more social campaigns.

Druid can be great if you find a way around the metal prohibition. Healing Sprit is a level 2 druid spell that can heal 10d6 to the whole party in 1 minute. By far the most efficient method to heal out of combat, and has combat potential as well. And the level 1 spell Goodberry can heal 40hp for a Life Cleric.

[Specter]

Shoot i got excited for a sec about the prospects of the multi group attacking abilities of a war cleric/hunter ranger, unfortunately after checking on it, both hord breaker and divine strike are only once per turn, they work well together i guess, but the fact you can't use them with extra attack and the war priest bonus attack kinda dampens the it :smallfrown:

It could work just fine. With Extra Attack, War Priest and Horde Breaker, you could get up to 4 attacks per turn. All of that along with about 2/3 spellcasting. Also you can do ranged smiting by upcasting Hail of Thorns/Lightning Arrow. Man, WIS multiclasses are totally underrated.

[Iados]

There are a number of high-level Cleric abilities that are extremely impressive. A Life Cleric's ability to max out dice on healing spells is extremely helpful, for example, and it all but ensures that a high-level party should be able to survive some of the most difficult challenges a party can face. And then there's this:


One feature; Divine Intervention.

The higher your level, the more reliable it gets and it's basically your "get out of jail free" card. It might come with some caveats, but not even Wish has the same potential to invoke GM fiat to help out the party. For that, if nothing else, the Cleric is an invaluable ally in high level play.

^So much this. There's only one ability in D&D with the potential to be even more game-breaking than a Wish spell, and it's this. Being able to call in a personal favor from a god isn't awful, it's awesome.

[solidork]

Depends on what you think is "awful".


Is a high level Cleric effective?

Absolutely! Up-casting Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon is one of the most terrifyingly effective combat tactics that works in 99% of situations and against 99% of enemies.

Is a high level Cleric one-dimensional?

Absolutely! And here-in lies the problem of a stupendously small Cleric spell list. While SG + SW is probably the most versatile and effective combo in the game, it's also pretty much all you'll end up doing because it is so damn effective.

So basically yes, but with the caveat that you might not enjoy playing one.

This is pretty accurate when it comes to combat.

I would like to throw in the caveat that Clerics also get plenty of powerful out of combat options: Sending, Scrying, and Commune radically altered the course of our campaign once we hit the higher levels. Downtime days turn into crazy information gathering and dissemination opportunities, and unlike most other classes the Cleric doesn't have to spend spells known to get access to them.

[Nidgit]

My issue is that Divine Intervention, despite being extremely powerful when it works, is just rather boring as a scaling reward. Other full casters get 1-2 subclass features usually in addition to a capstone, a sweet level 18 skill, and often some other scaling goodies.

Clerics get one subclass features at 17. Everything else is just gradual improvements to what they already have. The only exciting thing to look forward to are new spells, which others have noted are fairly limited in options.

If I were redesigning the Cleric class, I'd probably cap Divine Intervention at 90-95% and give them a real capstone instead. I'd probably try to add a simple ability at level 13 or 14 too.

[samcifer]

While we're on the subject, how do Light clerics do at higher levels? I wanted a blaster with utility kind of character and Light cleric seemed the way to go.

[Deathtongue]

While we're on the subject, how do Light clerics do at higher levels? I wanted a blaster with utility kind of character and Light cleric seemed the way to go.

I've played with a Light Cleric up to level 14 in Adventurer's League. They perform fairly well. However, they have the problem that all clerics have: their base spells eventually outshine their class abilities, especially when combined with concentration slots. Their CD option starts out strong, grows weaker as the game goes on despite being able to be used on the same round as Spiritual Weapon. Scorching Ray and Fireball are powerful damage options to have, but they suffer through action clog (typically it's first round Spirit Guardians -> CD + Spiritual Weapon -> Something else).

A similar story happens with all of the caster clerics. Light clerics squeeze out a little more damage on round two and three, so they're more differentiated than, say, Knowledge and Life, but base cleric spellcasting will overshadow their lists.

I think the only cleric that plays significantly differently at high level is the Arcana cleric and that's only if you get to level 17 and liberally use Spellbreaker.

[Errata]

If you're coming from 3.5e and haven't played many 5e casters, there are some things you need to get used to. Instead of having increasingly powerful versions of the same effect, they make a good proportion of the spells scale with level. So you don't have just a few good choices at 8 or 9, you have dozens of them, they just happen to be listed under lower levels and you have to look up how they scale.

[Merudo]

If you're coming from 3.5e and haven't played many 5e casters, there are some things you need to get used to. Instead of having increasingly powerful versions of the same effect, they make a good proportion of the spells scale with level. So you don't have just a few good choices at 8 or 9, you have dozens of them, they just happen to be listed under lower levels and you have to look up how they scale.

Again, that encourages multiclassing into other spell casting classes. No real point in getting a cleric over level 11 or so when you can grab powerful spells & abilities from other classes and still get the same spell slots.

[JellyPooga]

Again, that encourages multiclassing into other spell casting classes. No real point in getting a cleric over level 11 or so when you can grab powerful spells & abilities from other classes and still get the same spell slots.

Missing out on level 7+ spells by multiclassing out of Cleric is a big deal. You may have 9th level slots, but without 9th level spells to fill them, you're simply going to be under par, no matter how many lower level spells you know or have access to, to upcast.

This isn't to say that not having 9th level spells is a deal breaker; many multiclass builds operate more than adequately without them, but don't fool yourself that an upcast 5th level spell, such as Flame Strike is in any way the same as casting, say, Gate.

[Throne12]

This led to picturing the standard walking-tin-can cleric letting out a warcy as it's armer falls away with a thunderous bang before they go all Bruce Lee on enemies. 😂

There is that magical armor from Xanather's that makes taking the armor off real quick. So I cam so see the cleric finishing up healing someone then walking towards a large enemy that the rest of the party is still fighting as the cleric is walking forward the armor in dropping off her then it just the chest picese. She just into a unnatural Sprint leaving the Breastplate still falling.

[Merudo]

Missing out on level 7+ spells by multiclassing out of Cleric is a big deal. You may have 9th level slots, but without 9th level spells to fill them, you're simply going to be under par, no matter how many lower level spells you know or have access to, to upcast.

This isn't to say that not having 9th level spells is a deal breaker; many multiclass builds operate more than adequately without them, but don't fool yourself that an upcast 5th level spell, such as Flame Strike is in any way the same as casting, say, Gate.

At the very least, a single level dip into Wizard seems superior. Getting access to a higher level spell once a day every other level doesn't bring that much benefits, anyway. Just upscale a lower level spell, you'll usually end up with similar results.

Level 1 Wizards get access to powerful cantrips (Booming Blade), a familiar that can Help every round, and Shield + Absorb elements. At level 11+ you are unlikely to have much use for spell slot 1-2, plus you recover a level 1 slot from a short rest, so taking Wizard 1 essentially lets you have either +5 AC or Resistance to an element for every combat. Seems very powerful to me!

[JellyPooga]

At the very least, a single level dip into Wizard seems superior. Getting access to a higher level spell once a day every other level doesn't bring that much benefits, anyway. Just upscale a lower level spell, you'll usually end up with similar results.

Level 1 Wizards get access to powerful cantrips (Booming Blade), a familiar that can Help every round, and Shield + Absorb elements. At level 11+ you are unlikely to have much use for spell slot 1-2, plus you recover a level 1 slot from a short rest, so taking Wizard 1 essentially lets you have either +5 AC or Resistance to an element for every combat. Seems very powerful to me!

A one or two level dip is very different to ducking out of your primary class after "level 11 or so".

[BoxANT]

Going through this debate in my current campaign.

Level 5, high elf, knowledge cleric.

Thinking of taking a two level wizard dip at level 7 and 8, mainly for Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements.
Shield will make the Spirit Guardian / Spiritual Weapon combo extremely resilient.

But slowing down spell progression, not getting +2 Wis until level 10, will hurt.

I wish Clerics had more options for their reflex.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I could see going Rogue 1 at some time but honestly I have never driven a character to Level 17 so this is all theory on par with discussing if a defective rusted Tundra or Tacoma frame can hold up to a fifth wheel.

I din't own a fifth wheel and have no expectations of buying one.

[Angelalex242]

Well, think of Divine Intervention as a resuable Wish spell you can't lose access to.

Or treat it like an Final Fantasy style summon spell. If your dice roll works, your God shows up and basically wins the battle.

[Specter]

Going through this debate in my current campaign.

Level 5, high elf, knowledge cleric.

Thinking of taking a two level wizard dip at level 7 and 8, mainly for Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements.
Shield will make the Spirit Guardian / Spiritual Weapon combo extremely resilient.

But slowing down spell progression, not getting +2 Wis until level 10, will hurt.

I wish Clerics had more options for their reflex.

Why Wizard 2 and not Wizard 1? Is there any school feature you think is vital for your character?

[samcifer]

Well, think of Divine Intervention as a resuable Wish spell you can't lose access to.

Or treat it like an Final Fantasy style summon spell. If your dice roll works, your God shows up and basically wins the battle.

Yeah, but you only have at best a 1 in 5 chance of it succeeding until you hit max level, meaning no multiclassing. Very poor odds, imo.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, but you only have at best a 1 in 5 chance of it succeeding until you hit max level, meaning no multiclassing. Very poor odds, imo.

Yeah, it's poor odds. But hey, if you always try it at the start of an encounter, it's a 10-19 percent chance that you waste no other resources in that battle, because your god disintegrates all the bad guys.

Especially a good idea if you're facing a dragon.

"Can I instakill him?"

...yes, I rolled well.

"Well, cool. Dragon's toast, you get his hoard for free."

This is similar to Odin, in Final Fantasy 8. There was basically a random chance he'd show up at the start of every non boss battle. If he did, he instakilled everything.

[Citan]

I noticed that the dominion spells for the cleric are granted only until the 9th level.
Not only this, but the spell list shrinks more and more, until there are only 4 spells at level 8 and 9.
And if you already have a wizard in the party you don't really need such spells (there is any useful spell at level 8 other than holy aura ?).
Class features aren't really exciting (they are more a numerical upgrade of basic features) except the lv 17 dominion feature (and only some of them).

So my question is: is the cleric an amazing class at lower levels, that becomes bad and boring at higher levels ?
There are good reasons to go on with the cleric after the 10th level ? It isn't better to make a cleric/sorcerer or something similar ?
Well, I never played 17+ Cleric and I do admit I'm not that interested in capstone or 9th level spells... But I wouldn't say it's "awful". Not all all.

Not only do you get extremely impressive lvl 17 features (and I mean, REALLY GREAT) ones, you also get one more use per short rest of very useful Channel Divinities at level 18.
That would be a reason enough for me to stick with Cleric all the way up to 18 at the very least once for most domains, and particularly Life, Tempest, Trickery, Death, Arcane.
Also, why lvl 9 spells are not appealing to me, they are definitely great (just True Resurrection may save a campaign ^^). And the lvl 8 are definitely ones I'd like to use.

Now, I also understand fairly well people who would want to opt out of Cleric because...

1) Harm/Heal, Planar Ally, Firestorm, Conjure Celestial, Earthquake, Antimagic Field

2) There are really no good multiclasses for clerics. They pretty much have everything they need in their own class and dips don't really mean much to them. Sorcerer is probably the only one that gives them anything they might want and it really pales in comparison to those (literally) earth shattering high level spells. Plus clerics probably won't have much charisma.

That is as wrong as any one could ever be.
You have extremely good multiclasses to be made with Fighter (especially Eldricht Knight, Extra Attack & Eldricht Strike), Rogue (especially Arcane Trickster, Magical Ambush), Monk (especially Open Hand, SG synergy), Ranger (any), Druid (all except maybe Dreams, big big SG synergy), Sorcerer (Subtle, Extend, Heightened, Quicken), Wizard (Evocation for Light, Abjurer for War, etc).
Warlock and Bard can bring very good things when you know what you are multiclassing for.
Even Barbarian could be adequate as long as you know why you multiclass into and know how to manage the duality concentration/rage.

One iconic example: Eldricht Knigt 11 / Nature Cleric 6. ;)


Going through this debate in my current campaign.

Level 5, high elf, knowledge cleric.

Thinking of taking a two level wizard dip at level 7 and 8, mainly for Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements.
Shield will make the Spirit Guardian / Spiritual Weapon combo extremely resilient.

But slowing down spell progression, not getting +2 Wis until level 10, will hurt.

I wish Clerics had more options for their reflex.
Why specifically Wizard? Are you going for War Magic, or don't you have any other option?
I'd either otherwise suggest either only one level of Wizard, or up to three levels into Sorcerer for the metamagics tricks. You get Shield both cases. ;)

[BoxANT]

Why Wizard 2 and not Wizard 1? Is there any school feature you think is vital for your character?

Mainly for Divination school (powerful and thematic for knowledge cleric).