What does it takes to become a self-taught Wizard? (verosimilitude,standard 3.0world)

[Conradine]

In your opinion, how much is it hard to become a Wizard without a teacher, and what should someone do to achieve his first level?

I'm talking about verosimilitude, not about game necessities. To talk about d&d as if we were talking about a verosimile, internally consistent fantasy world.

EDIT:

Classic dungeons and dragons edition 3.0.

The world were Tordek, Mialee and Jozan live.

[BowStreetRunner]

The problem with applying verisimilitude to wizardry here is that you are exclusively dependent on the setting. As you pointed out, the goal would be an internally consistent fantasy world, as wizards don't exist in reality (at least I think they don't). So not only would Eberron be different from Forgotten Realms, but Eberron run by DM John Doe would be different from Eberron run by DM Mary Smith.

[Conradine]

Classic dungeons and dragons edition 3.0.

The world were Tordek, Mialee and Jozan live.

[John Coake]

In most traditional D&D settings, it would take quite a while for someone not previously schooled in magic to learn to cast it without the aide of learning under a trained caster. I, as a DM, would have this be handled by having the character in question spend several in-game months(at the very least) researching magic, reading any spellbooks they can acquire, and generally gathering as much public knowledge as they can to learn the art of casting magic, at least enough to be the equivalent of a 1st level Wizard. Sadly the rules of D&D generally don't allot for training time when it comes to multiclassing, so that's something that the DM has to interpret based on the class in question.

[Conradine]

In your opinion, would a common human ( Int 11 ) be able to gather together enough knowledge to become a level 1 Wizard , in a traditional D&D setting by visiting those few temple libraries that are open to public?

I mean, a very determined one, and spending something like 10 or 15 years.

In " Complete Divine " it says temples of Boccob offer instruction to everyone they deem worthy, commoner or noble. I guess that also temples of Pelor would give access to basic, non dangerous texts ( no necromancy or demonology ) to someone that offer himself for voluntary work ( in the temple infirmary, or cleaning floors, or else ).

[John Coake]

Given a timeframe like that, and assuming the resources of various churches and public libraries, I do believe that a level 1 commoner with an average intelligence could become a level 1 wizard. They may not become a particularly skilled wizard, but they would be a wizard.

[BowStreetRunner]

...Eberron run by DM John Doe would be different from Eberron run by DM Mary Smith.

...that's something that the DM has to interpret...
First off, the idea of someone self-teaching to become a wizard is going to be a DM call. As I stated earlier, it's not just about setting.



In " Complete Divine " it says temples of Boccob offer instruction to everyone they deem worthy, commoner or noble.
Secondly, if the character is taking advantage of instruction, then they aren't 'self-taught', which is a different matter entirely.

As you specifically mentioned 3.0 (but not necessarily 3.5), Tome and Blood would be your go-to source for information regarding Wizards and Sorcerers. On page 20 under the heading Becoming a Wizard it mentions the need for a long period of apprenticeship or a course of study at an institution to learn how to read spell-books and prepare cantrips. "After that point, gaining further skill and knowledge is simply a matter of experience and practice." So it really is a matter of overcoming this first hurdle and how much self-teaching the DM would require in order to duplicate the outcome of apprenticeship or school study.

Within this same setting, different DMs could make the following rulings and each would be able to do so without going against 'canon' for the setting.
All magical writings useful for casting spells require the use of the Read Magic cantrip, whose secret is not written anywhere but must be taught. Therefore, self-teaching the first level of wizard is impossible.
Learning how to cast cantrips from a book requires a significant amount of effort for someone not being trained by another. A candidate must have access to books about magic and spend a full year attempting to master the Read Magic cantrip. At the end of the year they make a DC 20 Intelligence check to see if they are able to master the cantrip. If they fail, they may continue to study and may make another attempt after an additional year of study. Each year of study beyond the first reduces the DC of the check by 1. It is not possible to 'take 10' on this check.
It takes twice as long to self-teach the first level of wizard as it would to learn it as an apprentice or student. Say...10 years.

Every one of these would be legitimate within the default setting of 3.0 (or 3.5 for that matter).

[John Coake]

I was unaware there were actual rules governing this sort of thing. My bad, then.

[Psyren]

You can teach yourself many things if you just have the right books. Just ask Ray Bradbury, HP Lovecraft, Alan Moore...

The only trick then is getting the self-teaching wizard access to those books. One way I would make a wizard without a formal education or apprenticeship, would be for an existing (slain) wizard's familiar to attach themselves to someone and lead them to his master's books before his sapience fades. It's even better if the familiar can speak, e.g. a raven, helping him sound out the phrases in the limited time he has remaining, and then the young wizard returns the favor by taking him on as his new familiar, reigniting his intelligence above animal level.

Another way would be to have the budding wizard simply be in a profession that exposes themselves to books in some way. Perhaps you're a waif or worker in a scholastic area like Candlekeep. Perhaps you had a darker upbringing - magic is outlawed, and you were tasked with burning esoteric books, but began to keep a few of them for yourself instead. Perhaps you're simply a wanderer, and stumble across an ivy-choked abandoned tower or an ancient ruin. There's all kinds of ways you can come across Wizardry on your own, and we haven't even gotten to the god(s) of magic yet, who would have a vested interest in making sure wizards pop up in remote locations.

[Name1]

I don't know if this helps much, but as a DM, I always had literacy in at least one language and an int-score as prerequisites.

[Conradine]

Secondly, if the character is taking advantage of instruction, then they aren't 'self-taught', which is a different matter entirely.


I assumed that benevolent ( Pelor ) or knowledge oriented ( Boccob ) temples would allow a person which is not an initiate mundane teachings that could be used for private experimentation ( competence in various languages, Alchemy, Profession - herbalist ) or mabye even theoric knowledge of what magic is ( Knowledge - Arcana, mabye half dot in Spellcraft ) but they would not give the full training a Wizard require.

[John Coake]

The only trick then is getting the self-teaching wizard access to those books. One way I would make a wizard without a formal education or apprenticeship, would be for an existing (slain) wizard's familiar to attach themselves to someone and lead them to his master's books before his sapience fades. It's even better if the familiar can speak, e.g. a raven, helping him sound out the phrases in the limited time he has remaining, and then the young wizard returns the favor by taking him on as his new familiar, reigniting his intelligence above animal level.


*casually steals this for a story idea/character backstory in the future.*

[Kelb_Panthera]

Without instruction or at least texts and treatises it would be nigh-impossible. It'd be like trying to teach yourself calculus and chemistry at the same time, from scratch.

If you can get a hold of some abandoned spellbook (good luck) then you've at least got something to try and piece together. Of course, it's all arcane symbols and notes that may or may not be coded for security. So that's a thing. If you get lucky you might -also- find a text on spellcraft to go with the spellbook and then you -really- get a decent chance of figuring it out for yourself. Of course, that's all predicated on you having any talent for wizardry.

Now, on the other hand, if you already have a level in sorcerer (or bard, I guess) then you already have a working knowledge of magic that you can then try to reverse engineer into wizardry through observation (pick up scribe scroll and use the wizard bonus feat for somethign else). Incidentally, ultimate magus is a fun class.

[icefractal]

Depends on how self-taught you mean -
* Inventing the concept of Wizardry from scratch - This would take a 'one in a generation' genius, and it might take their entire lifetime to even develop the basics.
* Has general information about Wizardry, but nothing complete - It would be an amazing feat, and take a lot longer than learning it the normal way.
* Has books, including spellbooks, but no teacher - Impressive but not unheard of; maybe 2x the normal amount of time.

Note - in the last case, if the books were written specifically for teaching someone this way, it might not take much longer than the normal amount of time. The difference between a "Programming 101" guide and an API reference, perhaps.

[Conradine]

Without instruction or at least texts and treatises it would be nigh-impossible. It'd be like trying to teach yourself calculus and chemistry at the same time, from scratch.


I have an objection. Calculus is more than the average student can grasp, even with effort and adequate instruction. Cantrip magic ( level 0 magic ) is something an Intelligence 10 person can learn, with instruction, straining himself to his limit.

Now, what can an average person learn without improving his Intelligence by level or age ( which means, without decades of continuous mental exercise ) ? I would say that the majority of people , with instruction and effort, can learn mathematics up to mid school level. *

So, to learn without any kind of help would be like trying to build and teach yourself basic algebra and geometry, like ancient egytians farmers did.

Extremely hard, extremely time consuming but not impossible.


* I mean learn well, fully master; not simply pass with average grades

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have an objection. Calculus is more than the average student can grasp, even with effort and adequate instruction. Cantrip magic ( level 0 magic ) is something an Intelligence 10 person can learn, with instruction, straining himself to his limit.

Now, what can an average person learn without improving his Intelligence by level or age ( which means, without decades of continuous mental exercise ) ? I would say that the majority of people , with instruction and effort, can learn mathematics up to mid school level.

So, to learn without any kind of help would be like trying to build and teach yourself basic algebra and geometry, like ancient egytians farmers did.

Extremely hard, extremely time consuming but not impossible.

The basics of calculus and chemistry don't take any special degree of intellect to grasp. A qualified instructor can get someone who applies themselves to the point of solving basic problems without too much trouble by simple memorization of the appropriate formulae. Will it be difficult for your average Joe, sure, but hardly impossible.

[Conradine]

If that were true, every single hard working student - and there is a fair number of them - would get full grades in math at least up to high school. That does not happen.


The basics of calculus and chemistry

Well, I was talking about calculus only. Chemistry cannot be re-invented without a laboratory.

[Hecuba]

First off:

The world were Tordek, Mialee and Jozan live.

For reference, the actual name for that setting is "Greyhawk" (or occasionally "Greyhawk-light" to clarify that the core books are intentionally lighter on the setting details than the material that is written for "Greyhawk" in particular). Other D&D settings are no less a valid part of 3rd edition.


In your opinion, how much is it hard to become a Wizard without a teacher, and what should someone do to achieve his first level?

I'm talking about verosimilitude, not about game necessities. To talk about d&d as if we were talking about a verosimile, internally consistent fantasy world.

That established, the default answer between 2 and 12 years of study (presuming the study habits of an adolescent human) and a non-negative Int.

Greyhawk has no particular gatekeepers for arcane magic (or, at least no gatekeepers beyond those for dangerous knowledge in general). You simply need to make an intellectual study of the relevant material for sufficient time to understand it. The time it takes for that study is the starting age modifier for a wizard - if you are using the base starting age, which makes you a teenager (or the equivalent for other races) and thus potentially distracted by other topics. For a human, that starting age modifier is 2d6.

This can be bypassed to some extent by multi-classing, but that is explicitly a point where the designers chose ease-of-play over verisimilitude. Still, you can explain away some of it by the multi-classing character no longer being an inexperienced 15 year old human (or the elf equivelent, etc.)



If that were true, every single hard working student - and there is a fair number of them - would get full grades in math at least up to high school. That does not happen.
Calculus (or at least the levels of Calculus generally available to US High School students and college underclassmen) is not that hard. In particular is not that much harder than any of the other high school math classes in the standard US curriculum that are above Algebra I. In fact, there is a good case to be made that many of the topics handled in Pre-Calculus in the US are significantly harder. Most people are entirely able to learn Calculus.

The reason why many US students perform poorly in Math is not because it is too hard for them, but rather because much of the US has a deep cultural disaffection for math. Students ask for help on English or History homework and their parents assist them: they ask for help on math and their parents respond negatively and decline to help. We are also, in most cases, fairly bad about connecting it to careers and to real life.
In short, many kids are shown by their parents and their culture that math is a chore to be feared rather than an interesting or useful topic. They may work hard at it, but they do so out of obligation rather than desire and without the same kind of cultural and home support given to the Arts and Letters.

This snowballs as they move through the education system. And because the US teaches math on a sequential curriculum (rather than the integrated curriculum used throughout most other western countries), disuse magnifies the effects when they finally reach pre-calculus and calculus (which are inherently integrative).

[Conradine]

In your opinion, becoming a self taught Cleric by studying theology and / or philosophy books would be , as a rule of thumbs, harder or easier than becoming a self taught Wizard?


And: would be a viable path to pray the gods of magic / the unpersonal forces of magic in order to become a Cleric with access to Magic domain, then use the granted divine insight to self taught yourself true Wizardry?

[Hecuba]

In your opinion, becoming a self taught Cleric by studying theology and / or philosophy books would be , as a rule of thumbs, harder or easier than becoming a self taught Wizard?


And: would be a viable path to pray the gods of magic / the unpersonal forces of magic in order to become a Cleric with access to Magic domain, then use the granted divine insight to self taught yourself true Wizardry?

It takes just as long, but requires non-negative Wis. It might well be a good way to rationalize the hand-wave that multiclassing gets.

It's worth noting that this would be somewhat necessary to do something like this for many settings. In Krynn, for example, the gods of magic explicitly act as gatekeepers for Arcane magic. They don't there clerics, but you need those consent to get access to magic. Mystra has a similar ability in Faerun, though she is more deliberately neutral.

Greyhawk has no such function.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In your opinion, becoming a self taught Cleric by studying theology and / or philosophy books would be , as a rule of thumbs, harder or easier than becoming a self taught Wizard?

About the same or perhaps just a tad easier. It doesn't require the same intellectual rigor but it does require a degree of intuitive understanding of the deeper meaning of the faith's teachings and parables beyond their literal meaning that is no more common than the intellect to become a skilled wizard. You generally see more divine casters than arcane by dint of them having much more aggressive recruiting.


And: would be a viable path to pray the gods of magic / the unpersonal forces of magic in order to become a Cleric with access to Magic domain, then use the granted divine insight to self taught yourself true Wizardry?

That certainly makes some degree of sense. Clearly the granted power of the domain shows some blessed understanding of how arcane magic works to at least the degree to activate spell completion and trigger items. That strikes me as being enough for a start into deeper study of the subject matter.

[Merellis]

This was a good fifteen years ago when I was still working on the farm. Some arse in a funny robe broke in the door of our house and demanded our beeswax or somethin', so I beat him with a chair. Took his book to pay for my door, and dropped him off with the sheriff for breaking and entering. Couldn't sell the blasted thing as it was in some sort o' code, the fact it was in code had me puzzled and I was still a bit miffed from the fact he broke into my family's home. I was makin' the trip into the city anyway, so I stopped by the library for some books on arcane theory and got to work.

Took me over a year to work out the book, and even longer to get the basics down. It's amazin' what you can do when runnin' on spite.

Good decade later I'm punchin' some other arse in a robe after turning the magic off. Can't keep raising the dead in an anti-magic field, now can yah!?

[Xar Zarath]

Well it does depend on the char in question. If magic is known then he/she can make her way to a local library and pick up some books relating to magical theory or just magick in general. If he manages to get his hands on a spellbook (rare but if DM allows then that's good) then the process of studying can begin in earnest.

Slowly, bit by bit, you could say that he learns through trial and error, collecting other works and books on languages and learning relating to the arcane, maybe picking up some reagents or weird items with mystical value. Coupled together with a serious work and effort along with a few years of self study, you could say that yes by that time, he gains a level in Wizard. After that hurdle, he begins to adventure and learn more about magic, adding up to his total knowledge.

Now that he has some power, he makes his way to ancient tombs and forgotten cities that were stories or legends in his books. These places could have arcane significance and by going there he could learn more in the ways of magic. Pretty soon, he could have contact with magical creatures who you can treat with or maybe barter with for learning and more magic.

The rest is up to you at this point.

[Endarire]

As a character who played a self-taught Wizard, that self-taught aspect was just background for me.

<chirp>

But as for how it could be done, you would need all the supplies of a Wizard - spellbooks, spell components, perhaps a familiar, and whatever texts or resources were prudent for you to translate 'Wizard stuff' into mundane understanding. You'd require so many resources that being 'self-taught' feels like a stretch: Others did a lot of the work for you and you're just figuring out the puzzle without another sentient being as a formal mentor.

[Yogibear41]

I would say it depends on a few things.

1.The intelligence of the person attempting
(which you said was 11)

2. the materials the individual is working with
(also if they can read)

3. Having a few skill ranks in something like spellcraft, Know: arcana, or decipher script would also likely come in handy, but the character would likely have none of this if he was completely self taught.

4. I would say that race also plays a roll in learning, with certain races (depending on your setting) being more naturally inclined to learning magic.


#2 is probably the most important, if said individual had a step by step guide for translating magical formula into normal common speak its going to be alot easier. If all they have is say a wizard's spell book to go by that would be alot like me dropping a book written in latin in front of you (assuming you don't speak latin) and telling you to write a book report on it.

I'd say that based on the answers to these questions it could take anywhere from a few months for an extremely smart person with a step by step guide, to never for a relatively average person with next to nothing to go by.

[Conradine]

@Yogibear41:

He's a standard human being, in a standard fantasy country of standard 3.0 D&D world.

I assume that even in countries with low ( but not wholly absent ) literacy levels, a determined person can find a relative, a friend or a benevolent priest / adept / merchant that teaches him to read and write.

---


Another thing.

In the Dungeon Master guide, the Adept class is said to be a curious mix of arcane and divine magic. Indeed, Adepts have access to a peculiar Wizard / Sorcerer class feature ( the familiar ) and several arcane spells in their spell list. They are also much more common in areas unable to train Wizards and Clerics.
I guess they mix the power of faith with semi-superstitious pratices and traditions, some of which may be effective arcane lore.

So: let's suppose a would be Wizard is unable to find a true Wizard to teach him the basis.
Would be a viable path to apprendice to an Adept, then to make a selection by empirical experimentation in order to separate effective lore from everything that is either ineffective or powered by faith only?

---

Another another thing: in "Masters of the Wild" there is a subsection about herbal components and their mystical properties, complete with a table with a plant for every spell level and school of magic. They are used to create infusions ( divine magic infused in herbalist remedies ).
That subsection also says these herbalism knowledges are diffused in each and every culture - which is fairly realistic - so it should be awaiable to village elderlies and medicine-men.

If the would be Wizard have enough time and a quiet place with proper space to work ( I was thinking about an hut in the woods , full of potted plants and with a small green house ), would be useful to collect and garden herbs, plants and roots, then empirically experimentate the resulting powders and extracts on captured mices and other rodents ?

[Yogibear41]

Adepts are a throw back to 1st edition's shamans, I believe is what they were called. Most adepts would basically be the medicine man/seer of a tribe, and thus would be trained by their mentor. A potential explanation for Adepts is generations back the culture had wizards and clerics, but due to some circumstances the exact methods of those classes were lost over time, but the knowledge was not completely forgotten, so the study of magic was passed down over time, eventually resulting in the adept class.


Learning to be an adept is likely alot easier than learning to be a wizard. Because their magical process is in a more simplified form.

[trikkydik]

It's these kinds of arguments that destroy D&D.

I would never play a numbers game on table top, Xbox and PlayStation are for number crunching.

The rules in the books are IMPLICIT, meaning up for interpretation. Who cares if a wizard needs a teacher, ITS A FREAKING WIZARD!!!!

I could never be in a campaign with a bunch of super nerds who forget the reason for playing D&D in the first place. TO HAVE FUN

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another thing.

In the Dungeon Master guide, the Adept class is said to be a curious mix of arcane and divine magic. Indeed, Adepts have access to a peculiar Wizard / Sorcerer class feature ( the familiar ) and several arcane spells in their spell list. They are also much more common in areas unable to train Wizards and Clerics.
I guess they mix the power of faith with semi-superstitious pratices and traditions, some of which may be effective arcane lore.

So: let's suppose a would be Wizard is unable to find a true Wizard to teach him the basis.
Would be a viable path to apprendice to an Adept, then to make a selection by empirical experimentation in order to separate effective lore from everything that is either ineffective or powered by faith only?



No. Hard no. Adepts are divine casters. They have a few spells that appear on the sorc/wiz list but they still cast them as divine spells, not arcane. This is a total non-starter.


It's these kinds of arguments that destroy D&D.

I would never play a numbers game on table top, Xbox and PlayStation are for number crunching.

The rules in the books are IMPLICIT, meaning up for interpretation. Who cares if a wizard needs a teacher, ITS A FREAKING WIZARD!!!!

I could never be in a campaign with a bunch of super nerds who forget the reason for playing D&D in the first place. TO HAVE FUN

It ever occur to you that some of us -enjoy- playing with numbers?

Not that numbers have much of anything to do with the conversation at hand. We're discussing the logically consistent world-structure that surrounds wizardry. If you don't give a flying fig about logical consistency in your game, good for you. For some of us, however, logical inconsistency damages our suspension of disbelief and makes the game less enjoyable. That's just how it goes. "Different strokes for different folks" and all that.

[Conradine]

No. Hard no. Adepts are divine casters. They have a few spells that appear on the sorc/wiz list but they still cast them as divine spells, not arcane. This is a total non-starter.

"Reflecting a lesser knowledge of magic yet an intriguing combination of arcane and divine skills, the adept serves as both wise woman (or holy man) and mystical defender."

Dungeon Master guide, same definition in both 3.0 and 3.5 manual.

[Quertus]

How long did it take to translate ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics without the Rosetta Stone? Oh, wait, we couldn't.

Without a teacher, or an instruction manual, or help from the gods, I'd put it in the realm of impossible, even with a spell book to work from.

[Conradine]

It's an uncorrect comparison. Magic is much more like math than like a language.

Language is a largely arbitrary system that relates signs to concepts. There can be a virtually infinite number of signs and even grammatical rules with little to no limitations.

Instead, mathematic and it's applied form ( physics ) are objective. If our civilization falls and a million years from now another sentient race appear, Pythagoras theorem would work for that civilization exactly in the same way.

Arcane magic, in a standard d&d 3.0 world is an objective force, with non arbitrary rules. No civilization can make Meteor Swarm a level 1 spell.



How long did it take to translate ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics without the Rosetta Stone? Oh, wait, we couldn't.

The problem is, a mage with enough Spellcraft dots can read a spellbook written by a mage of a different culture which shares no language with him and recognize spells he newer saw or heard of before.

So, I guess that means magic, like math, follow some kind of universal and not arbitrary code.

[Psyren]

It's an uncorrect comparison. Magic is much more like math than like a language.

Language is a largely arbitrary system that relates signs to concepts. There can be a virtually infinite number of signs and even grammatical rules with little to no limitations.

Instead, mathematic and it's applied form ( physics ) are objective. If our civilization falls and a million years from now another sentient race appear, Pythagoras theorem would work for that civilization exactly in the same way.

Arcane magic, in a standard d&d 3.0 world is an objective force, with non arbitrary rules. No civilization can make Meteor Swarm a level 1 spell.




The problem is, a mage with enough Spellcraft dots can read a spellbook written by a mage of a different culture which shares no language with him and recognize spells he newer saw or heard of before.

So, I guess that means magic, like math, follow some kind of universal and not arbitrary code.

Indeed - so it sounds like you answered your own question. If magic wizardry is math, it can be self-taught.

[Quertus]

It's an uncorrect comparison. Magic is much more like math than like a language.

Language is a largely arbitrary system that relates signs to concepts. There can be a virtually infinite number of signs and even grammatical rules with little to no limitations.

Instead, mathematic and it's applied form ( physics ) are objective. If our civilization falls and a million years from now another sentient race appear, Pythagoras theorem would work for that civilization exactly in the same way.

Arcane magic, in a standard d&d 3.0 world is an objective force, with non arbitrary rules. No civilization can make Meteor Swarm a level 1 spell.

The problem is, a mage with enough Spellcraft dots can read a spellbook written by a mage of a different culture which shares no language with him and recognize spells he newer saw or heard of before.

So, I guess that means magic, like math, follow some kind of universal and not arbitrary code.

IIRC, in earlier editions of D&D, magic was written in draconic. And how many fighters with spellcraft can read said book?

Given that physical forces can be observed by our physical bodies, but magic tends to, well, require magic to observe, I think it would be even more difficult to create magic from scratch than my example linguistic challenge. After all, how many people can successfully write an operating system from scratch that runs correctly the first time? Oh, right, and we have to limit that to people with no programming experience, BTW.


Indeed - so it sounds like you answered your own question. If magic wizardry is math, it can be self-taught.

How much html was there 100 years ago? How many operating systems were written on punch cards? How many people today self teach themselves thermonuclear astrophysics? Temporal mechanics?

Perhaps more accurately, how many people could self teach themselves [i]invent[/s] differential equations, if they had to first invent addition, and everything in between?

[Psyren]

How much html was there 100 years ago? Hire many operating systems were written on punch cards? How many people today self teach themselves thermonuclear astrophysics? Temporal mechanics?

Perhaps more accurately, how many people could self teach themselves [i]invent[/s] differential equations, if they had to first invent addition, and everything in between?

Not many at all, but that's not the point. Simply by being an adventurer/PC, you're already an exceptional member of the population. So being a rare occurrence doesn't stop it from being a viable character concept/origin.

[Conradine]

Indeed - so it sounds like you answered your own question. If magic wizardry is math, it can be self-taught.

No, I don't answered my own question.

Yes, I started with the assumption that it can be self taught but the question was "what does it takes".

Because if self-teaching yourself basic magic ( cantrips ) is like learning elementary aritmetic ( addition subtraction multiplication division ), then it would take an handful of years of daily work for an average person ( it's not easy as it may sound ).
But if it's like learning college-level math, it would take a lifetime work from a natural genius ( Intelligence 18 ).

It's not the same thing.

[Psyren]

No, I don't answered my own question.

Yes, I started with the assumption that it can be self taught but the question was "what does it takes".

Because if self-teaching yourself basic magic ( cantrips ) is like learning elementary aritmetic ( addition subtraction multiplication division ), then it would take an handful of years of daily work for an average person ( it's not easy as it may sound ).
But if it's like learning college-level math, it would take a lifetime work from a natural genius ( Intelligence 18 ).

It's not the same thing.

But even formally taught wizards start out barely above cantrips. You can learn a lot while out on the road - this is why multiclassing is a thing that exists.

You could, at your table, require that anyone who wants to pick up a level in Wizard needs to find a mentor or enroll in Hogwarts and go to classes between adventures. But that would be a houserule.

[Conradine]

Perhaps more accurately, how many people could self teach themselves [i]invent[/s] differential equations, if they had to first invent addition, and everything in between?

The question here would be: cantrips are difficult as additions or as differential equations?

[Quertus]

The question here would be: cantrips are difficult as additions or as differential equations?

How many years of formal training does the trained wizard require? I believe 4-6.

How old is the wizard when they receive this training? I believe standard is "teenage".

So... How long would it take one person to create all of algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus?

Answer: lifetimes.

Now, what if they had no way of knowing if they were right or wrong at any given step, because they can't test magic theory until they have cantrips? My money's still on impossible.

Mind you, I'm saying this as a genius who has self taught himself to program, and published his own math theorems: I believe that, had I been born in D&D the world where Tordek, Mialee and Jozan live, I would not have been able to self teach myself magic from scratch in a human lifetime.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Reflecting a lesser knowledge of magic yet an intriguing combination of arcane and divine skills, the adept serves as both wise woman (or holy man) and mystical defender."

Dungeon Master guide, same definition in both 3.0 and 3.5 manual.

"Skills" not "magic." The text is very plain, adepts cast divine spells, period. One might be able to give you some hints to work with (spellcraft skill is universal) but he can't teach you what he doesn't know and how to cast arcane spells is something he just doesn't know. Observation of his spellcasting would be full of red-herrings for a would-be wizard-in-training. If he's trained in knowledge (arcana) that could help too but in all cases an apprenticeship would be wholly inappropriate; better a research subject than a partner or mentor.

Besides; doesn't having a teacher kind of defeat the intention of being self-taught?

[Fizban]

All magical writings useful for casting spells require the use of the Read Magic cantrip, whose secret is not written anywhere but must be taught. Therefore, self-teaching the first level of wizard is impossible.
Ah, but that's not considering the Spellcraft skill.

While learning a spell requires already being a Wizard, deciphering the spell (presumably in order to learn it by taking your 1st level or multiclassing into Wizard), does not.

The DC to decipher a written spell without Read magic is 20+spell level, try-able once per day. Anyone with 1/2 a rank in Spellcraft and 10 int can roll at +0, fishing for a natural 20 as a full round action every day for a cantrip. Even without good luck, after two months there's a 95% chance they'll have rolled at least one nat 20 and deciphered Read Magic, at which point they can read it whenever they wish, and if they actually have the intelligence for wizardry and studied Spellcraft already (having some actual ranks), they will do so much sooner.

Once you can decipher the spell you still need to level up. Non-adults take years to reach their first class level because they're gaining their "first level" of xp very slowly through apparently non-lethal means, else they could die during character creation (just made that up). For a 1st+ leveled character, you can level as fast as you can overcome challenges. Since challenges you can beat without expending resources clearly aren't, we will assume the standard limit of four encounters worth of xp per day, which translates to four days minimum to gain a level.

Thus, becoming a self-trained Wizard can take as little as 1 day: pick up a spellbook, decipher Read Magic with your prior knowledge of Spellcraft to get yourself started, knock over a convenience store or something to finish gaining a level, and take a level of Wizard. Or if you just leveled up and have never so much as read anything about Spellcraft: spend four days adventuring at maximum speed (and considerable risk) to gain a level, buy at least 1/2 a rank of spellcraft, decipher a spell in anywhere from 1-60 days, then spend four more days adventuring at max speed to take a level of Wizard.

If that seems a little short, you can increase it by requiring them to decipher every spell they will learn with their first level of Wizard. That includes all 19 PHB cantrips, three 1st level spells, and another for each point of int bonus they have. Since they can roll for every spell every day, deciphering shouldn't actually take much more maximum time: I'm sure I don't know how to calculate that sort of probability, but if two months isn't enough to seal it I'd bet three is. With a good Spellcraft bonus (or magic item) they could decipher all those spells in a single day, but would still need to get the xp for level up.

Finally, you could require them to make the learning roll for all their spells (even though they can't), instead of giving the learned spells for free: since you need to be a Wizard to learn a spell, but taking even one level gives you a bunch of free spells, you might have them roll that as part of their "preparations." In that case the skilled multiclasser needs at least an extra 23+int days to learn the spells (assuming they never fail a Spellcraft check), for a minimum of 23+int days.

The unskilled guy is gonna need way more time and a bigger spellbook to reference, because every failed check to learn a spell bans you from trying it again until next level. If he's got enough spells to choose from (we either ignore the rule for cantrips or just demand 19 cantrips and assume there's enough to cover all failures), then with a +1 modifier I'll fudge some more mildly educated guesses and say half a year is enough. Add that on to before and we've got maybe 9 months for someone with only +1 Spellcraft to decipher and then learn the appropriate number of spells for a 1st level Wizard on their own-assuming access to enough 0th/1st level spells to cover their failed checks.

As mentioned above, trying to not just learn but invent wizardry on your own is basically like trying to invent all the major branches of science on your own: a lifetime, if you're a genius. You'd have much better luck focusing some good 'ol burning spirit and awaking your inner Sorcerer, if you've got cha 10+. Or just Warlock, boom, done.

[Conradine]

Besides; doesn't having a teacher kind of defeat the intention of being self-taught?

It's just a thought exercise, mabye the plot for a short novel.

The idea is an average person ( not an average player character: the common man ) which would love to have a teacher but is unable to get one ( too poor for a wizardry college, not enough impressive to persuade an indipendent mage to take him as apprendice ), so he tries to do the work with the tools he have.

Since adept should be, in rural areas, just slightly less common than herbalists ( which means quite common, 1 or 2 for every small village ), finding one inclined to accept an apprendice should be something that an average person can do.

---


Now, what if they had no way of knowing if they were right or wrong at any given step, because they can't test magic theory until they have cantrips? My money's still on impossible.

In a standard d&d world, sentient being - even those which have no particular talent toward magic - seem to have some kind of innate ability to "feel" magic.

Thieves, without formal training and only due trial and errors, are able to activate magic objects.
Factotums are able to, I quote their class description letter by letter:

"You know that with a few weird hand gestures and an array of grunts and bizarre words, you can conjure up something that looks like a spell."

Now, not everyone is a thief or a factotum but the simple fact those characters do exist proves, in my opinion, that sentient beings are able to feel some kind of sensation while dealing with magic.


If not, I would not be able to explain how a thief that potentially never met a Wizard or a Sorcerer ( potentially: the rules do not states a thief needs magical training ) can learn how to activate a scroll or a wand.

I guess magic gives some kind of tingles, goose bumps, hitches and the like that, with pratice, can be correlated to effects and meanings.

[Conradine]

You'd have much better luck focusing some good 'ol burning spirit and awaking your inner Sorcerer, if you've got cha 10+


Err... english is not my native language. What does that means?

[Fizban]

I'm referring to the common anime trope where simply by trying really hard, a character can develop magical powers. This is basically how DnD works: for all that people like to go on and on about bloodlines, there is no bloodline requirement for sorcery whatsoever. As long as you have cha 10+, your next level can always be Sorcerer, because you wanted it hard enough.

[Grim Reader]

For verisimilitude, I've always ruled than an entirely self-taught wizard is an Adept. Now, I houserule that Adept spellcasting count as neither arcane nor divine. So we are into houserule territory here.

An Adept, as I see them, is a proto-wizard. Basically, Adepts will try any kind of magic, try to figure out what works and see if some kind of system can be figured out. Prayer, appeals to beings from outside reality, etc. They magic is a kludge of "stuff thats found to work" Some are entirely self-taught, some inherit a small amount of lore from previous wisewomen and hedgemagicans.

When groups of Adepts organize, overcome mutual suspicion and start to share lore, Wizards happen. This happens now and then in different cultures. I've had some thoughts about the different kinds of spellbooks and spell lists that could be generated by cultures with different ways of passing on information.

I would say that a Wizard needs access to the kind of pooled lore you get from many Adepts working together, whether through teaching or books.

[daryen]

Doesn't multiclassing just make all of this irrelevant?

Starting as unclassed, and wanting to be a wizard as requirements around it. You have a minimum age and whatnot. But, if you already have a class, literally any class, and you want to be a wizard, you just are, as long as you have enough experience for a second level.

That would seem to me, that the only requirement for being a self-taught wizard is having a class level. Even one level of Commoner would be sufficient.

Or am I missing something?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't multiclassing just make all of this irrelevant?

Starting as unclassed, and wanting to be a wizard as requirements around it. You have a minimum age and whatnot. But, if you already have a class, literally any class, and you want to be a wizard, you just are, as long as you have enough experience for a second level.

That would seem to me, that the only requirement for being a self-taught wizard is having a class level. Even one level of Commoner would be sufficient.

Or am I missing something?

This is unambiguously true by strictest RAW but, by the same token, a character who's never shown anything but -utter- contempt for the gods can take a level of cleric when they level up too; no extenuating circumstance to explain a change of heart needed.

The thing in question is what makes sense within the game world. If one of my players wanted to take a level of wizard, I'd be more than happy to work with him to work the bits that make sense into his downtime story (maybe he -has- a spellbook or has been spending time in libraries or something) to explain it away as not being just, "*ping* I take a wizard level," without having to actually roleplay anything (unless he particularly wants to) so that he can get his wizard level. What we're doing here is trying to find out what -does- make sense to stick in that story space.