PDA

View Full Version : my success with DMPCs



Elvenoutrider
2016-09-16, 01:30 PM
Hi all, so I know these message boards have a tendancy to lean more towards people posting their problems but Im in a good mood given a few great sessions so I thought I would throw some positivity in and try to add a new take on one of the big no nos we all read about to avoid when writing a game. I have run the same campaign twice both with very experienced players and with newbies. THe campaign involves a lot of political intrigue, some incredibly combats and battlefield strategy.

WHen I say incredibly powerful combats, I dont just throw them at the pcs, I throw in a lot of clues, witnesses and sometimes superiour officers simply telling them - "yeah this is going to be a bloodbath if we walk in unprepared"

In the course of setting up the challenges, I know where the adventure starts, ends and 3 or four major scenes I write in as sort of a crossroads for continueing (I dont railroad them into them but I apply carrots and sticks to try and get them there). In between the beginning and end and scenes, I fill the area with a couple Npcs with various resources, allies, enemies, and agendas. The players can join them, fight them, play them off of eachother. I am working on a formula for how to do this right because mostly setting those up has been trusting my gut so far... IM getting off topic

Where this leads to is sometimes the pcs end up joined by characters with pc class levels. While not all of them have been popular, Ive had a fair amount of success so Im going to write a bit about the dos and donts and some characters who have worked. Lets start with the donts, as I think this will be easier

Do not:

1) force the pcs to accept them on the quest - people are disinclined to be forced to do anything, word it as a strong suggestion

2) force the pcs to give them a share of the loot - let the pcs be the one to offer this as an incentive for help. have the dmpc paid by a benefactor, have them just be there for altruistic reasons. On a side note, if there is treasure in your dungeon that the dmpc could use, there is nothing wrong with asking the pcs "Hey I bet I could clobber those orcs a bit better if you let me use the magic sword.

3) Do not upstage the party - I will go into this later but if you already have someone good at a job dont make a dmpc that is going to make them superfluous. ONe of the worst examples Ive seen of this is my party in the star wars rpg bought an astronomech droid which rendered my techie character obsolete. I ended up having to reroll because it realy didnt make sense to get rid of a droid that could do my job better. I went with it but it irked me

4) If they are a liability make sure they know it, or make sure it only happens a few times. For people that have played escourt missions in video games, you know being a babysitter isnt fun. If the dmpc isnt up to the same level as the pcs, have them know it. give them a ranged weapon and have them stand back and do what the pcs say. Putting them in danger can definitely create tension but dont overdo it. Have them trip a trap that you planned out that it looks like the pcs wont run into, have the archeologist they agreed to escourt accidently activate some necromancy runes and raise some fallen foes back up as zombies. have the child they rescued get up in the middle of the night to relive themselves to be attacked by a bandit. The msot important thing to note here though is - have the dmpc learn from the experience and dont let it be a constant issue - the line between building tension and annoying everyone is very fine.

5) Dont make the story about the dmpc - its great if they have a reason to be in the dungeon but make sure the players are still the main characters of the story. Lets say the Dmpc has a vendetta against the dungeon boss - make sure one of the boss' underlings is someone the pcs have a reason to be going after.

6) Dont make them diametrically opposed to the party allignment - this should really go without saying but if you have a party of good characters and they suddenly have to constantly put in extra effort to stop their new battle buddy from torturing and killing villagers, no one is going to be having fun.

7) Do not make them as strong as a character the players could have made for this purpose - sometimes a party composition leaves out desired skills, but if this character can suddenly solve problems for the party as well as a pc, the other players may start to feel upstaged. Do not max out the skills, dont optimise their build. the party should still feel the loss from their choices of skills, feats, and spells. The exception of this is a tank or support character as its just going to annoy everone if the tank keeps dropping and everone loves a support character

Dos:

1) Do add personality quirks - pretty much every game has a random table of personality quirks, these can make the character

2) the character can cook - not really sure why but adding this detail can make your players much more inclined to take them

3) a friend in need - give them a tragic backstory and be in need of help. Theyve come this far they just need the pcs for the last push. This can be a big motivator

4) Tells jokes - if you as a person can do this, it adds to the likeability

5) Do fill gaps in the party ability - does the party lack a ranged attack, maybe they need a healer, someone who can stand in the middle of a crowd and get wailed on for a while - find something the party needs, especially if they cant get through the adventure without it. Best example is there is a dungeon full of traps and the party has no one with trap finding. As stated before, it is best to make sure this character who is there to fill in the gap is not as strong as one of your players would be in that situation. Do not optimize the build or make the dmpc a few levels lower

6) Make it so the character isnt always on the pcs minds - for your sake as well. He is not there to solve all of the problems for the party or to steal the spotlight. If your pcs have to ask where he is and what he is doing, youre pretty much doing it right (not during combat)

7) Make the dmpc the voice of the dm without breaking immersion - if the pcs suggest something that wont work for an obvious reason (Thats great Krusk, but the rest of the party isnt immune to fire). You can point these things out in character without breaking the immersion.

8) Kill the Dmpc or have them betray the party at a crucial time to motivate them or create a huge plot twist

9) if the party splits up, players can play as the npcs for a bit so everyone can keep playing

DMPCs who have worked

Olan the bandit - he is the leader of a bandit faction the pcs defeated and captured, when asked why he staged an armed insurrection, he told the pcs their benefactor was actually a psychopath behind closed doors, and had his son killed in the front lines to he could have a night in bed with his son's wife. as soon as he was done with her, he had her banished. When Olan brought this up in court he was exiled and had his own family killed. THe party kept him alive in secret until finally an ally of the lord paid off one of the pcs to kill him. THis dramatically increased party tension as they tried to find the traitor. One of the things he was able to do was lead men with the command skill (houseruled skill). When the pcs were entering a dungeon, he could lead their men and guard the enterance.

Peter the Pious - a mute cleric of a healing god who was assigned to the party to keep them alive when rooting out an evil cult. He had some stern looks for some of their behavior but as a mute he really couldnt stop the party actions. he also cooked them lovely cmapfire meals

Dominic the archeologist - a low leveled investigator who the pcs needed for his knowledge of the ancient species who made the dungeon they were entering. He stayed back in combat, firing his ranged weapons and getting sneak attacks when he could. he triggered a few traps and spells inadvertantly during combat

Christoff the guard - the pcs broke into a lord's keep to save a number of women he had captured under false pretenses. 6 npc guards joined them and christoph was one of them. The pcs botched the plan and in the course of the battle, christoff managed to get enough lucky rolls to tank a hallway full of guards for a few rounds, long enough for the pcs to do what they needed. Because of his heroics, I awarded him with a backstory and some pc class levels and he became a tank for the party.

themaque
2016-09-16, 01:37 PM
Those are some pretty upstanding rules for the DMPC.

I've had some success in helping fill in the gaps of a party with an DMNPC before. But I explained beforehand that X classes would be best served as PC's and that Y classes, if they felt would be needed, could be filled in with NPC's.

dascarletm
2016-09-16, 01:39 PM
I agree I've had much success with DMPCs before as well. However, you'll find that some people define DMPCs as disruptive, calling anything that isn't "just an NPC that's in the party."

MintyNinja
2016-09-16, 02:02 PM
I started one of my games off with the players as part of a squad and gave them a few DMPCs to round out the roles and give them the information needed at a controlled trickle. I think the key was that I didn't let the DMPCs take too much spotlight and once combat was over they reverted back to NPCs nicely. I also keep a loose stack of stats to toss onto important NPCs should the unthinkable happen and they're thrust into combat. Particularly because we're playing as a society of raiders and sailors at the moment.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-09-16, 02:23 PM
DMPC has a specific connotation. "NPC who happens to be in the party" isn't it.

Gravitron5000
2016-09-16, 02:25 PM
Do not:

1) force the pcs to accept them on the quest - people are disinclined to be forced to do anything, word it as a strong suggestion


With this point you are describing an NPC, not a DMPC. These are not the DM's PCs, just major NPCs in the setting/scenario.

It's a good guide to not making NPCs abrasive though.

dascarletm
2016-09-16, 02:27 PM
However, you'll find that some people define DMPCs as disruptive, calling anything that isn't "just an NPC that's in the party."

DMPC has a specific connotation. "NPC who happens to be in the party" isn't it.

See. Toldja. :smalltongue:

kyoryu
2016-09-16, 02:39 PM
See. Toldja. :smalltongue:

Not really. A DMPC isn't just any NPC - it's an NPC that, apart from who is running it, is indistinguishable from a PC.

LudicSavant
2016-09-16, 02:40 PM
I don't know if I'd call the characters in question "DMPCs" but I have certainly had NPCs travel with the party before... not only without it causing problems, but with the party giving a great deal of positive feedback about them.

One example was a badly damaged warforged that the party found lying on an old battlefield. They repaired him and took him with them, and he traveled with the party from that point on. He was considerably weaker than the party, but they were fiercely protective of him nonetheless. Like they made him their pet project or party mascot or something.

Another example coming from a completely different angle was an ally (?) that was actually slightly higher level than the players, an influential prince who was being escorted by them on a shared political mission. However, the character's motivations were suspect, and his disposition generally unhelpful. He was rarely in the right place at the right time to help out in fights (sometimes suspiciously so), and the players were suspicious of anything he was involved in and thus would try to go over his head for things. In many ways, the character was an obstacle for the PCs to deal with rather than solving any of their problems for them. They pointed to it as one of the more memorable and rewarding parts of the campaign.

Another was in a scenario during the Last War where the PCs were a military squadron tasked with escorting a powerful army magician to a crucial point on the battlefield without that magician needing to use her prepared spell slots before getting there. They loved that mission.

So, basically, it's all a matter of execution.

dascarletm
2016-09-16, 03:18 PM
Not really. A DMPC isn't just any NPC - it's an NPC that, apart from who is running it, is indistinguishable from a PC.

I agree, but it'll never be totally indistinguishable by virtue of the DM running him/her. Otherwise, I agree not just any NPC with the party is a DMPC.

kyoryu
2016-09-16, 03:42 PM
I agree, but it'll never be totally indistinguishable by virtue of the DM running him/her.

Well, yes. This is why there is pushback on the idea in the first place.


Otherwise, I agree not just any NPC with the party is a DMPC.

Right. Which is why things in the initial list, like "don't insist that the NPC gets a treasure share" kinda disqualify the NPC from being a DMPC. The initial list is more like "how to make sure your NPC doesn't become a DMPC".

Psikerlord
2016-09-16, 06:57 PM
I personally dislike DMPCs in the party. I appreciate the guidance of the OP, but for me, as player (and I DM a lot) - I find DMPCs just ... take away from the spotlight on the genuine PCs too much. I much prefer the party obtain their own henchmen/hirelings if they need extra hands/backup etc - guys who are under their control (mostly, the DM can step in), and who are generally orders of magnitude weaker than the PCs.

I dont mind the occasional "join forces" adventure, of course, with powerful NPCs. But as a rule, I dont like any DMPCs or NPCs in the party (exception as above).

As a DM, I never put DMPCs in the party - it's up to the players to beef up their squad, if they think it needs beefing up, or they're missing some specific skill/capability that will be very handy on their next outing.

Lorsa
2016-09-17, 05:39 AM
Not really. A DMPC isn't just any NPC - it's an NPC that, apart from who is running it, is indistinguishable from a PC.

When I first read this thread topic, I started thinking about what actually differentiate a DMPC from an NPC. Is it only the spotlight time or is it the fact that the DM says "this is MY character"?

Koo Rehtorb
2016-09-17, 10:23 AM
The DM doesn't have to say "this is my character". It qualifies if they're thinking it/acting like it, even subconsciously.

dascarletm
2016-09-17, 06:16 PM
I would define it as any NPC that is put in the narrative where a PC would go. For example, if the game starts out with all the players being the sole survivors of a dwarven stronghold and they adventure out seeking revenge, then any NPC that starts in that situation and goes along with the party would be a DMPC in my book. That is, as long as they level-up and partake in combat as the PCs do.

LudicSavant
2016-09-17, 07:00 PM
People are getting tied up in arguing about definitions instead of discussing anything about the game again. :smallconfused:

I think the topic the OP intends to discuss is how to implement NPCs who hang out with the party successfully or unsuccessfully.

Cluedrew
2016-09-17, 08:19 PM
However, you'll find that some people define DMPCs as disruptive, calling anything that isn't "just an NPC that's in the party."But then some people use the word "literally" to mean "figuratively", it doesn't make them correct.

However I agree that DMPC has more negative connotations than NPC. But I don't think a DMPC is simply an overbearing NPC. Mind you I couldn't tell you exactly what the difference between the two is. But I don't think we have to work it out exactly anyways, because I think these pieces of advice can be taken for either.

Lorsa
2016-09-18, 11:31 AM
People are getting tied up in arguing about definitions instead of discussing anything about the game again. :smallconfused:

I think the topic the OP intends to discuss is how to implement NPCs who hang out with the party successfully or unsuccessfully.

Well, I guess it is because if one can narrow down the entire "not to do" list into the definition of a DMPC, then the definition does matter. :smallsmile:

RazorChain
2016-09-18, 04:55 PM
I only have one rule about DMPC


1) DON'T!!!


If you follow that rule then you then you will never ever have problems with them.

Now DMPC is not some NPC that the players decide to drag along with them on some crazy adventures. DMPC is a Player Character played by the Dungeon Master.

Cluedrew
2016-09-18, 05:57 PM
To RazorChain: That seems to be a little overly broad, kind of like saying: How do you avoid all role-playing game problems? Don't play roll playing games.

I mean I have no doubt it works, but I too have had successful DMPCs... well not DM because we weren't playing D&D. But I have run games where I had a character in the list of PCs. It worked with very careful separation of character and player knowledge and the fact we were playing a game with much less bookkeeping helped so I wasn't overloaded.

RazorChain
2016-09-18, 06:18 PM
To RazorChain: That seems to be a little overly broad, kind of like saying: How do you avoid all role-playing game problems? Don't play roll playing games.

I mean I have no doubt it works, but I too have had successful DMPCs... well not DM because we weren't playing D&D. But I have run games where I had a character in the list of PCs. It worked with very careful separation of character and player knowledge and the fact we were playing a game with much less bookkeeping helped so I wasn't overloaded.

That is why I said that I have one rule about DMPC, you don't have to follow it. When I was a teen me and another friend shared DMing responsibility, so when one was DMing the other was playing and vice versa. So when I was DMing my character was also there. How does it look when my DMPC finishes off the BBEG or is stealing "screen time" from the other players? Will I be tempted to fudge in my DMPC favor? Do I avoid TPK when my DMPC is present? Will I kill my DMPC that I am invested in? What if there is an argument and a fight breaks out between my DMPC and another PC? Will I play favorites with my DMPC? How do I place loot/magic items or rewards that isn't favoring or disfavoring my DMPC? I would hope that I'm objective enough to handle those situations correctly but how do I know that the presence of my DMPC isn't affecting me subconsciously?

In the end I just tried to make him fade into the background and only talk when asked about something, I just didn't see the point so when I was DMing he just stayed home, cleaning his boots or something.

Lorsa
2016-09-20, 05:01 AM
I can't even count the number of times I've had characters with PC levels accompany the party in some way or another. One campaign had a childhood friend who was a sorceress following the two PCs. She also happened to be the true heir to the throne of the kingdom. Despite that, my players had no complaints at all, in fact they think of it as one of the most enjoyable campaigns they've had. During the game, they started a rebellion and ultimately lead an army to overthrow the usurper King and make their old friend into a Queen. They certainly wouldn't have done that if they somehow felt upstaged by some DMPC.

The thing is, I never thought of the sorceress in question as my "DMPC". It was simply one NPC of many, and the players could have ditched her if they'd been so inclined. Later on, they were also occasionally accompanied by a rogue and a fighter who were the characters' love interests. They were also quite clearly NPCs.

So I think one of the best ways to succeed with DMPCs, is to not have them, but rather have NPCs that hang out with the party. I think it's about the motivation why they are present in the game. A friendly NPC is there to enhance the game mainly for the players whereas a DMPC is there to enhance the game for the DM. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a DM attempting to enhance their own play experience, but due to the power discrepancy between players and DM, it quite easily ruins the fun for the players.

In the end, many groups have an implicit social contract of "the party is the party". That is, regardless if the characters want to stick together or not, they will due to the OOC implicit contract (some groups have it stronger, some weaker). A DMPC is one that takes advantage of this by being with the party regardless of how the players feel. A "normal" NPC can always be kicked out, but a DMPC can not. That, I think, is the main difference and what ultimately bugs a lot of players.

vasilidor
2016-09-20, 06:02 AM
My best dmpc was a sorcerer in a pathfinder game. The party loved him, I gave him a summon duct tape spell and made it his major thing (along with max ranks in crafting with it). He made the party all water proof coats. In combat he did enemy nerfs & party buffs. Then once the party hit tenth level or so i murdered him with a dual pistol wielding gunslinger who happened to be his brother. The gunslinger did not escape.

My worst was a fighter guy who was simply so boring no one noticed when I had him fall off a cliff.

edit: I just realised that my favorite thing to do with dmpcs is to get the party to like them and then brutally murder them. and if the party doesn't like them, they die any way.