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View Full Version : Interrogating NPCs and Getting the GM to Show Us The Plot Hook



Cealocanth
2016-09-16, 01:46 PM
In one game I'm playing our GM absolutely loves making it about political intrigue, or about espionage, or about secret underground cabals, or a syndicate of thieves, or other covert things like that. I have found that one of the most vital things necessary to progress in the game is to obtain information, but the issue is, I'm just really bad at it. We have no trouble contacting information broker NPCs or capturing baddies with knowledge but have no way to actually get the information we need out of them.

First question: What are the right questions to ask, and how do I find these out? I can't tell how many times we have had an NPC in our grasp, licking our heels and ready to spill the beans, but we can't ask anything even remotely plot relevant because the plot has just been that well hidden that all obvious questions are already known, and all necessary questions are unknown. Our GM is a lawyer in training. It's pretty obvious he knows how to keep secret information secret, though he seems quite bad at actually giving us clues.

Second Question: How do I find out what I don't know? This is the biggest issue in our game, and the one that causes the game to slow to a screeching halt. The GM doesn't tell us what we don't know because we are supposed to find that out. But whenever we go looking for that info, we look in the wrong places because we don't know where we need to look. Are there any techniques or tricks that we can utilize to find out what we don't know?

Third Question: How to get an NPC to spill the beans. We can do this with die rolls all day, but even if we succeed on an Intimidation, Persuasion, or Interrogation roll, the GM still has a tendency not to tell us what we need to know because of some reason or another. (One NPC had a split personality and we were interrogating the wrong one, another one was just that good at keeping secrets, etc.) Die rolls are useless. So are real interrogation techniques, because the GM is not in the same state of stress or trauma that his NPCs are in. What we need is a rhetorical practice to get him to accidentally tell us what we need to know to move forward in the game.

We have tried the obvious, like telling him that we're not all law students and don't make arguments and keep secrets for a living, so it would be nice if he could drop the plot hook after we try for a reasonable amount of time.

So, any suggestions? This probably happens in a lot of other people's games as well. What do you do to get your GM to spill the beans?

OldTrees1
2016-09-16, 01:55 PM
If you know the NPC knows something you don't know you don't know you could always do the "I know of nothing better to do than interrogate you" interrogation. This motivates the NPC to come up with something that would sound like it is something better to do (to get a break) or something that actually is something better to do (ends the interrogation).

Quertus
2016-09-18, 09:04 AM
If you don't know The Plot, then just ignore The Plot. Progress your own story lines until The Plot becomes something that you care about.

Be the secret plot that others need to investigate.

Be an Illithid Savant, eat you captives' brains, learn everything you need to know.

Purchase a simulacrum of an Illithid Savant.

Invent your own custom spell to simulate being an Illithid Savant.

Use bardic lore and divinations to know everything.

Or, yeah, make it your prisoner's problem to advance the plot. Of course, having / being an Illithid Savant with a reputation for eating uncooperative brains goes a long way towards making your prisoners want to make absolutely certain that you know everything.

Jay R
2016-09-18, 09:48 AM
Either ask the DM for advice, force the plot to come to you, or just leave it behind.

1. "OK, in the last four sessions, we've spent most of the time not playing the game, just wondering what to do with no ideas. What are we doing wrong? Can you tell us how to play the game you want to run. Because as of right now, we're all sitting around for hours wishing we could play a game."

2. Do things to force the secret enemy to attack you. If they're a Thieves' Guild, start robbing people. If they are trying to take over the government, kidnap the mayor. This is dangerous, but it forces the DM to make things happen.

3. "Hey, guys, I'm tired of trying to investigate this secret underground cabal that we can't learn anything about. Let's head into the wilderness and look for straightforward enemies."

RazorChain
2016-09-18, 11:14 AM
In one game I'm playing our GM absolutely loves making it about political intrigue, or about espionage, or about secret underground cabals, or a syndicate of thieves, or other covert things like that. I have found that one of the most vital things necessary to progress in the game is to obtain information, but the issue is, I'm just really bad at it. We have no trouble contacting information broker NPCs or capturing baddies with knowledge but have no way to actually get the information we need out of them.

First question: What are the right questions to ask, and how do I find these out? I can't tell how many times we have had an NPC in our grasp, licking our heels and ready to spill the beans, but we can't ask anything even remotely plot relevant because the plot has just been that well hidden that all obvious questions are already known, and all necessary questions are unknown. Our GM is a lawyer in training. It's pretty obvious he knows how to keep secret information secret, though he seems quite bad at actually giving us clues.

Second Question: How do I find out what I don't know? This is the biggest issue in our game, and the one that causes the game to slow to a screeching halt. The GM doesn't tell us what we don't know because we are supposed to find that out. But whenever we go looking for that info, we look in the wrong places because we don't know where we need to look. Are there any techniques or tricks that we can utilize to find out what we don't know?

Third Question: How to get an NPC to spill the beans. We can do this with die rolls all day, but even if we succeed on an Intimidation, Persuasion, or Interrogation roll, the GM still has a tendency not to tell us what we need to know because of some reason or another. (One NPC had a split personality and we were interrogating the wrong one, another one was just that good at keeping secrets, etc.) Die rolls are useless. So are real interrogation techniques, because the GM is not in the same state of stress or trauma that his NPCs are in. What we need is a rhetorical practice to get him to accidentally tell us what we need to know to move forward in the game.

We have tried the obvious, like telling him that we're not all law students and don't make arguments and keep secrets for a living, so it would be nice if he could drop the plot hook after we try for a reasonable amount of time.

So, any suggestions? This probably happens in a lot of other people's games as well. What do you do to get your GM to spill the beans?



1) What to ask? Well start with as you lower that dentist drill closer to the NPC mouth "This is the time when you tell us everything you know". Ask him who he works for, what his mission is, who he is working with, where does he meet his contacts or accept new mission. Where does his employer live. Where is his HQ, does he know about the party, how does he know about the party, what are his resources, what are his boss' or organization's resources, what is the goal of his boss/organization. This is just to name a few. Then you don't off him but lock him in a basement so you can confirm what he tells you is true.

2) This is a tricky one, if you don't know that a evil organization is trying to take over the world then you can't prevent it. If you have few or no clues and aren't getting anywhere this is often the Gm's fault. When all else fails do a James Bond. James Bond can't gather clues so he just crashes the party and hopes that the bad guys come after him so he can take them out and interrogate them.

3) Promise something that they value, like their life. If they are fanatics that are prepared to die then you either have to torture them until they break or just accept that you arent evil torturers. Else it ties to question 1) Verify their information, if they aren't telling the truth or something useful then putting a nail into their knee, or dripping acid into one of their eyes is usually enough to loosen tounges. My favorite is the one where you put a cauldron over their bare stomach, put some rats under the cauldron...then heat the cauldron and wait until the rats will notice the heat and try to gnaw their way to safety.

Lorsa
2016-09-19, 06:16 AM
Honestly, this isn't a problem with you as a player. It's a GM problem. He is the one in charge of making the game move forward. If he isn't offering you enough direction, then there is really nothing you can do.

The best would be to ignore "the plot" and do something else.

Also, I really hate GMs who make unsolvable mysteries and think that is somehow fun for anyone bit themselves...

vasilidor
2016-09-20, 08:46 AM
My favorite solution is to stop being the hero, and become the villain. Burn everything to the ground. But that is an extreme measure, one I only use in the most frustrated of moments.

Basically I tell the GM my frustration. try to talk things out. I have had DMs who still insisted on being frustrating though. At which point I indeed find myself turning towards scorched earth tactics, burning through multiple characters, and at one point had the entire party trying for a tpk or total destruction of everything else without informing the dm of what we were doing (or each other for that matter), because of frustration (it became a form of catharsis, I think that is the word). but that is a rare thing that has only really occurred twice in my gaming career of twenty years. those games did not last long, and we did not let those DMs run as DMs again.

Most DMs are people who will actually sit down and listen to what you have to say, even if they disagree. And most will try to change things up when you tell them that their game is unfun.

Segev
2016-09-20, 10:30 AM
Information control is one of the hardest things to learn as a DM. There are two pitfalls, and the line between them (where you want to walk) is narrow and hard to balance. You can either give away the game too early by giving too much information or the wrong clue at the right time, or you can fail to give the PCs anything with which to work by being too good at concealing everything.

Your DM falls into the latter trap. I would suggest trying to talk to him about it. Things like Gather Information are supposed to help you learn the right questions to ask.

That said, one thing you could try is to simply ask yourself, "What am I trying to accomplish in this game?" If you don't know there is a plot, don't pursue it. If you only know there's a plot due to meta-game knowledge that the DM will have a plot... play as if that's not true. He'll eventually drop something of the game plot in front of you...or he won't. If he's the sort to be angry or gloat that you "ignored" his plot and "this is what you get" when his plot you never saw happening unfolds its endgame when it's too late to stop...well, that's on him. You clearly aren't willfully avoiding it; you never got the clues.

If he starts being frustrated that you're not pursuing his plot, ask him what it is you've missed. Tell him you've done your best, but your PC doesn't know it's going on because you can't figure out what it is.


But, if you know, IC, that there's something happening... well, why does your PC care? Why does the party care? What is happening that you DO know about, and what do you want to accomplish with respect to it?

Once you know what your goals are, ask yourself, "How will I do this?" Lay out a plan, and see what specific things you need that you don't know how to do. Then set out to find out how to do them. That should give you questions, at least. If they're not the "right" questions for the DM's plot, then the DM has a choice of either making his plot of enough interest that you start wanting to interfere with it, or let you be ignorant of it.

If he makes his plot interfere with what you're doing, don't jump on what you're "supposed" to do about it. Focus on the problems it's causing you. Focus on solving them. When you run into a question of HOW to solve it - perhaps you don't know who's stopping your bar from getting its supplies - you seek out people to answer those specific questions.


Ultimately, there's nothing you can do if the DM wants to play a game of "I know something you don't know." Because he has no reason to let you find it out other than verisimilitude or a desire to let you play the game. And he's convinced himself his verisimilitude is that you wouldn't learn the information "this way."

So stop trying to do it that way. If you don't know the questions, don't stress about it. There's only a "right question" if you have a goal and need to ask it to attain that goal. If you don't know THAT right question, you should at least know what obstacles you're immediately facing. Pursue solving those. Ask the questions to which you need answers to solve those. You will know what they are simply because you'll know what it is you DON'T know about that situation.

Again, you don't know why your bar is losing inventory? Investigate. You'll find, perhaps, that somebody is stealing it. Stop them. If you have trouble stopping them, you now need to find out what's giving you trouble. If questions arise as to the source of the interference, then you know to ask, "Who's supplying the thieves with backup like that?" Now you can find their backers. You still only care about making them stop stealing your bar's supplies, but now you have to plan how to do that.



Again, the nutshell is: if you don't know what questions to ask, then it means you don't know what your immediate obstacles are. Figure out what it is you're trying to do and what's stopping you from doing it. If you find you lack information sufficient to deal with what's stopping you, then you know what questions you need to ask.

vasilidor
2016-09-20, 04:09 PM
considering the OP's statement on multiple personalities and what not, it simply may not be just a matter of talking to the right people or asking the correct questions, but rather DM stupidity or stubbornness.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-09-20, 05:11 PM
What do you do to get your GM to spill the beans?

I think this is kind of misplacing blame for the problem. The real answer is to fix the GM or play with a better one. For a hacked together answer "Ignore the plot and do your own thing until the GM shapes up" is kind of the best you're going to get.

There's also the fact that many games simply aren't designed for intrigue and espionage. You could try to get the group to play a game that better handles that playstyle, preferably one with mechanisms that forces the GM not to pull bull**** like:


How to get an NPC to spill the beans. We can do this with die rolls all day, but even if we succeed on an Intimidation, Persuasion, or Interrogation roll, the GM still has a tendency not to tell us what we need to know because of some reason or another.

Plain and simple, the above quote is a case of bad GMing. There are games that make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that that sort of **** won't fly.

Garimeth
2016-09-21, 07:15 AM
considering the OP's statement on multiple personalities and what not, it simply may not be just a matter of talking to the right people or asking the correct questions, but rather DM stupidity or stubbornness.

EXACTLY.

There is a ton of rhetorical advice on how to ask the questions, but none of it will matter to this guy's GM.

vasilidor
2016-09-21, 03:10 PM
so again with all said and done you need to either A: voice your complaints to the DM, B: Voluntarily disregard his plot and run off in the other direction (which may or may not result in going with scorched earth) c: walk away.

I recommend starting with A, failing that progress to B or C as to your taste.

draken50
2016-09-21, 04:38 PM
It's definitely a GM issue.

I'd go with a 3 step approach.

1. Send the NPC to be interrogated by other NPCS who can come back with the knowledge. Are you good guys and they're a crook? Send him to the cops, make the DM figure it out.

If that for some reason doesn't work:

2. Make an honest but limited attempt on your own.

If that doesnt' work.

3. Destroy the hook. Kill the dude who you can't get the information out of or leave him for the cops or whatever. Make it clear you're done with him/her/it. "Why'd you shoot him in the head? He wasn't gonna talk anyway. You're the good guy! And he's a bad guy actively working for the bad guys who could put the rest of us in danger, next guy we catch, maybe he won't be so recalcitrant."

Can't find the clue in the house after searching as best you reasonably could.
Burn down the building. I don't know maybe the fire fighters or the arson investigator will find what we were looking for, but we weren't getting anywhere.

If the GM is gatekeeping you from playing with "only on right answer" type BS. Get rid of the answer and maybe he'll learn to make more than one. If that doesn't happen, find a new a game.

After all, if you were actively trying to question "the wrong personality" your GM was actively wasting all of your damn time instead of saying "As best you can tell, they really don't know the answers to the questions your asking." And letting you move on with the damn game. It's the same as making the thief roll until they get a twenty to say they can't pick the lock, Just say it and move on.

I say this as a GM, and as one who appreciates players making it clear to me that they don't know what do in game.

Keltest
2016-09-21, 04:46 PM
If for whatever reason you cant seem to advance the plot, ive always found smashing things until you find a piece of the plot in the rubble is a sound strategy. It forces the DM to make something happen, and if youre smashing the right stuff, it might even be something that you wanted to happen. But anything is better than a game stalled because nobody knows what to do.

vasilidor
2016-09-21, 06:48 PM
It's definitely a GM issue.

I'd go with a 3 step approach.

1. Send the NPC to be interrogated by other NPCS who can come back with the knowledge. Are you good guys and they're a crook? Send him to the cops, make the DM figure it out.

If that for some reason doesn't work:

2. Make an honest but limited attempt on your own.

If that doesnt' work.

3. Destroy the hook. Kill the dude who you can't get the information out of or leave him for the cops or whatever. Make it clear you're done with him/her/it. "Why'd you shoot him in the head? He wasn't gonna talk anyway. You're the good guy! And he's a bad guy actively working for the bad guys who could put the rest of us in danger, next guy we catch, maybe he won't be so recalcitrant."

Can't find the clue in the house after searching as best you reasonably could.
Burn down the building. I don't know maybe the fire fighters or the arson investigator will find what we were looking for, but we weren't getting anywhere.

If the GM is gatekeeping you from playing with "only on right answer" type BS. Get rid of the answer and maybe he'll learn to make more than one. If that doesn't happen, find a new a game.

After all, if you were actively trying to question "the wrong personality" your GM was actively wasting all of your damn time instead of saying "As best you can tell, they really don't know the answers to the questions your asking." And letting you move on with the damn game. It's the same as making the thief roll until they get a twenty to say they can't pick the lock, Just say it and move on.

I say this as a GM, and as one who appreciates players making it clear to me that they don't know what do in game.


in the games we went scorched earth/burn kill everything we started with "a - talk" then we did the above, and destroyed pretty much everything and had our alignments changed to evil. did not care by that point.
option a talk to DM, however, has worked 99% of the time. Maybe i am lucky in that.