Optimizing Knowledge Religion?

[TheFurith]

How would one go about getting the highest possible Knowledge Religion? Only has to last long enough to make a single check.

[Bakkan]

A few questions before we begin:

What's your race? Kobold

What's your class? Paladin

What level do we need to optimize for? 1

What particularly are you trying to do? :clueless:

[Afgncaap5]

Highest *possible*? Well...

Bakkan's questions should be answered, but to start with a few feat-related options...

Skill Focus grants a +3 bonus to a single skill. Might be obvious to mention, but I figure I'd get it out of the way since it's a typeless bonus. I think there are a few ways to get this feat without it being a typical feat slot (does the Frog God's Fen from Complete Scoundrel offer this? I wanna say so.)

Speaking of typeless bonuses, the Education feat grants a +1 bonus to all skill checks with two knowledge skills of your choice.

And... the Research feat gives a rather sizable +6 circumstance bonus to a knowledge check if you can situate yourself within a "Master Collection" of books, a Master Collection being rarer and more difficult to enter than either libraries "devoted to specific topics" (which grant a +2 bonus) or a "Comprehensive Collection" (+4 bonus). Most typical university libraries only qualify as comprehensive, so a "Master Collection" would probably be something along the lines of the library of Alexandria.

[ShurikVch]

Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a): +20 competence bonus on a single skill check

[Theobod]

Custom magic item would list +30 competence (maximum possible) at 90k (30*30*100gp), if that only has to be for a single check a disposable, single use version is 1/50th at 1800gp

[Big Fau]

Custom magic item would list +30 competence (maximum possible) at 90k (30*30*100gp), if that only has to be for a single check a disposable, single use version is 1/50th at 1800gp

Except there was a precedent set by an item in the MIC. 500gp for a +5 Competence bonus to a single knowledge check.

[Deophaun]

Divine insight can give you a +15 insight bonus to your check, and improvisation can give you a luck bonus equal to 1/2 your caster level. So, cheese your CL and you can probably have an arbitrarily high knowledge check.

[J-H]

Except there was a precedent set by an item in the MIC. 500gp for a +5 Competence bonus to a single knowledge check.

Psionic skill shards are cheaper:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#shards

[Afgncaap5]

Divine insight can give you a +15 insight bonus to your check, and improvisation can give you a luck bonus equal to 1/2 your caster level. So, cheese your CL and you can probably have an arbitrarily high knowledge check.

Speaking of luck, I'm a fan of rerolls. They aren't as good as numerical bonuses, but they can help. There's also a few other ways to modify luck. A few lucky shifts that can help out...
-Reroll with a luck feat and/or the luck domain's power. Even better, if you've got both of those, you can take the "Third Time's the Charm" luck feat that would allow you to try multiple rerolls, just in case you get a natural 1 twice in a row.
-The Luckstealer prestige class (requires being a Halfling) has a feature called Curse of the Black Cloud that can allow someone to cover a number of people with a cloud of bad luck that imposes a negative on rolls against them, but also gives you bonus luck points that you can add as a luck bonus on skill checks for a bit. The maximum number of luck points you can have in your pool is equal to your Charisma modifier and to how many victims you can get to fail their will save in a 20 foot radius spread, so... in a truly contrived situation, one could modify those numbers to great effect. It might, however, be easier to modify one's caster level and use Improvisation, as you suggest (especially since it's difficult to suddenly make one's character have seven levels in Luckstealer.)
-The Fatespinner prestige class allows a Fatespinner to "spin" skill checks at 3rd level, with an amount of "spin" equal to their class level. So... I guess it's just another typeless bonus, really, but it's ostensibly related to luck. Or, at least, probability.
-Fortune's Friend can add their level as a luck bonus. Almost certainly the smallest luck bonus we've talked about so far, but it's also probably one of the ones that requires the least amount of setting up just in case there's a cheese-fearing GM involved.

[TheFurith]

A few questions before we begin:

What's your race? Kobold

What's your class? Paladin

What level do we need to optimize for? 1

What particularly are you trying to do? :clueless:

Human, with able learner feat and 16 int.

Fighter.

Character will be starting level one, but need to be able to hit a check of 45 pretty consistently.

Make a traveling executioner. By traveling executioner I mean a guy who travels around providing executions as a service to towns. By providing executions to towns I mean sacrificing criminals to Asmodeus under the guise of lawful executions. So I'm using the BoVD sacrificial table to gain rewards. So I need to take a class that sucks at making Knowledge Religion checks and hit some pretty high numbers with it. A lot.

[daremetoidareyo]

Jormengand has your back. They did a truenamer in one of the Villainous comps. Gimmee a sec....

...

It's somewhere in here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20502218&postcount=118

It looks like fighter might be the wrong approach. Do you have flaws?

If you have flaws, you can get a+10 insight bonus with dream of insight.

[D.M.Hentchel]

The Paragonistic Assembly from Complete Champion (pg. 72) can give you pretty huge bonuses.

It can give you Knowledge (religion) as a class skill and a nice +10 untyped bonus.

But there are some hefty costs to remaining with it.

[Name1]

Just get a Changeling Knight of the Weave/Recaster/Sublime Chord, apply the Recaster and Sublime Chord stuff to Knight of the Weave and add Improvisation to the Knight of the Weave spell-list.

Knight of the Weave bases it's CL on the CL of all arcane casting classes except itself+Knight of the Weave class level, while Sublime Chord is an arcane casting class that bases it's CL on the class it's applied to, in this case Knight of the Weave. Hence, high caster level.

[Bullet06320]

aid another will get you another +2
masterwork item related to skill will get another +2
the higher the Int score the better

[ShurikVch]

Human, with able learner feat and 16 int.

Fighter.

Character will be starting level one, but need to be able to hit a check of 45 pretty consistently.

Make a traveling executioner. By traveling executioner I mean a guy who travels around providing executions as a service to towns. By providing executions to towns I mean sacrificing criminals to Asmodeus under the guise of lawful executions. So I'm using the BoVD sacrificial table to gain rewards. So I need to take a class that sucks at making Knowledge Religion checks and hit some pretty high numbers with it. A lot.From the 6th level it will be rather easy:
Secrets of Dusk - feat from Dragon Magazine #340 - allow to take 20 on a Knowledge check 1/day (assuming you have Skill Focus in relevant Knowledge skill); prerequisites: Born Under a Setting Sun, Skill Focus (any one Knowledge skill), character level 6th

Feats - something like:
1st: Born Under A Setting Sun, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion), Weapon Focus*
...
3rd: Sacrificial Mastery
...
6th: Secrets of Dusk
*WF - Fighter's bonus feat, possible prerequisite for Hellsworn

Calculation: 20 (Secrets of Dusk) + 20 (Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 3 (Int 16) + 1 (Born Under A Setting Sun) = 51*
*Because Knowledge (religion) isn't a class skill for Fighter, I don't included any actual ranks in calculation; if you somehow add Knowledge (religion) as a class skill, you may get 60

Also
Make a traveling executioner.Like this? :nale:

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll39/ShurikV4/Traveling%20Executioner_zpszjxpu1wl.jpg~original

[TheFurith]

Like this? :nale:

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll39/ShurikV4/Traveling%20Executioner_zpszjxpu1wl.jpg~original

That is exactly what I'm going for.

[Darrin]

Character will be starting level one, but need to be able to hit a check of 45 pretty consistently.


Why 45? DC 30 gets you the services of an efreet for one hour. Three wishes should be able to do anything that a DC 45 can do.

At level 1... I think the best I can do is:

Race: Human
Stub: Fighter 1
Feats: Iron Will (1st), Hardened Criminal (1st), Sacrificial Mastery (Flaw), Education (Flaw), Weapon Focus: Greataxe.

Roll: 10 (Hardened Criminal) + 4 (Ranks) + 3 (Int) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 2 (altar) + 1 (victim's HD) + 1 (public) + 2 (masterwork axe) = 27

That's enough to get the services of an outsider up to 6 HD... although I'm not sure if that helps much. Mirror mephit, maybe... create a simulacrum of a demon up to 16 HD, maybe something that can cast desecrate and unhallow?

At level 3, you can pick up Skill Focus, and your roll is now 32. That's enough to get an efreet, and from there you can wish for magic items: Tome of Worldly Knowledge and whatnot.

[Zaq]

daremetoidareyo kind of touched on this, but getting a Truenamer to help you will be immensely helpful. Universal Aptitude is a level 1 utterance that gives a +5 typeless bonus on all skill checks, and Hidden Truth is a level 2 utterance that gives a +10 typeless bonus on a Knowledge check. Both of them can be cast on someone other than the Truenamer, and even just a level 3 Truenamer can have access to both of them. (They probably SHOULD have both of them, since they're two of the best utterances out there.) Of course, if you get much above level 3, the Truenamer will have to have a higher Truespeak mod to be able to reliably affect you, but it is what it is.

Of course, you can do this yourself by dipping into Truenamer for a few levels (which will also give you a free typeless +3 bonus to a Knowledge of your choice along the way) or by investing three or four feats. Not a trivial cost, but if you're truly optimizing for one specific purpose . . .

Also, if even more dips are on the table, a one-level dip in DFA will get you Draconic Knowledge, for an always-on +6 typeless bonus to all Knowledge checks. A one-level dip in Warlock will then get you Otherworldly Whispers, which is another typeless +6 bonus on Knowledge: Religion (as well as Arcana and Planes). I understand that a one-level dip is not a minor thing when you're starting at level 1, but it's not like there are no other benefits to those dips.

[TheFurith]

Why 45? DC 30 gets you the services of an efreet for one hour. Three wishes should be able to do anything that a DC 45 can do.

Because no sane DM is going to give me three wishes a day? I've pretty much told the DM the way I plan to use the mechanic is to get free day long buffs, not to break the entire game. Nevermind that I'm petitioning Asmodeus of all people to send me an efreet for wishes. That's not going to end up like a scene from Wishmaster...nope....



For everyone else, level dips just aren't an option. I know fighter is terrible for what I'm trying to do, but it's an entire party of pure fighters. Just because. Instead of doing anything a typical fighter would do, I am making it as close to a caster as I can without just going UMD and grabbing a bag of wands or something. More of an experiment than anything else really.

[daremetoidareyo]

Why 45? DC 30 gets you the services of an efreet for one hour. Three wishes should be able to do anything that a DC 45 can do.

At level 1... I think the best I can do is:

Race: Human
Stub: Fighter 1
Feats: Iron Will (1st), Hardened Criminal (1st), Sacrificial Mastery (Flaw), Education (Flaw), Weapon Focus: Greataxe.

Roll: 10 (Hardened Criminal) + 4 (Ranks) + 3 (Int) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 2 (altar) + 1 (victim's HD) + 1 (public) + 2 (masterwork axe) = 27

That's enough to get the services of an outsider up to 6 HD... although I'm not sure if that helps much. Mirror mephit, maybe... create a simulacrum of a demon up to 16 HD, maybe something that can cast desecrate and unhallow?

At level 3, you can pick up Skill Focus, and your roll is now 32. That's enough to get an efreet, and from there you can wish for magic items: Tome of Worldly Knowledge and whatnot.

Race: Human
Stub: Fighter 1
Feats: Dream scion (1st), Dream of Instinct (1st), Sacrificial Mastery (Flaw), Education (Flaw), Weapon Focus: Greataxe.

Roll: +10 insight + 4 (Ranks) + 4 (Int) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 2 (altar) + 1 (victim's HD) + 1 (public) + 2 (masterwork axe) = 28 + your roll.

Otyough hole for iron will at level 2 and take hardened criminal at level 3.
Level 3:
Roll 10 +10 insight + 6 (Ranks) + 4 (Int) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 2 (altar) + 1 (victim's HD) + 1 (public) + 2 (masterwork axe) = 39

[ShurikVch]

Roll: 10 (Hardened Criminal) + 4 (Ranks) + 3 (Int) + 4 (Sacrificial Mastery) + 2 (altar) + 1 (victim's HD) + 1 (public) + 2 (masterwork axe) = 27How he can afford 320 gp Masterwork Greataxe, if Fighter starts with 4d4 gp?

[Darrin]

How he can afford 320 gp Masterwork Greataxe, if Fighter starts with 4d4 gp?

52 weeks of Profession (Executioner) should take care of it (earns about 6 GP per week). Or maybe buy a masterwork basket (50 GP) instead.

Actually, fighters start with 6d4x10 GP, up to 240 GP with a good roll, but just taking the 150 GP average should be fine. Pick the explorer's outfit (10 GP) as your free clothing (PHB p. 111), sell it back for 5 GP. Buy a traveler's outfit for 1 GP, and 300 empty flasks for 3 GP. Fill them with water, pay 150 GP to an NPC spellcaster to cast water to acid (Stormwrack), then sell the acid back for 50% market price. This gets you 1500 GP to spend on execution-related equipment.

[ShurikVch]

52 weeks of Profession (Executioner) should take care of it (earns about 6 GP per week).Are you kidding?!
52 weeks!!!
It's the whole year!
He will be about 19th level at that point. Or dead.

Or maybe buy a masterwork basket (50 GP) instead.In which book is masterwork basket?


Actually, fighters start with 6d4x10 GP, up to 240 GP with a good roll, but just taking the 150 GP average should be fine.:smalleek:
Yes, it's correct.
My bad!
I'm sorry.


Pick the explorer's outfit (10 GP) as your free clothing (PHB p. 111), sell it back for 5 GP.Who the heck will give you a 10 gp outfit for free? :smallconfused:

Buy a traveler's outfit for 1 GP, and 300 empty flasks for 3 GP. Fill them with water, pay 150 GP to an NPC spellcaster to cast water to acid (Stormwrack), then sell the acid back for 50% market price. This gets you 1500 GP to spend on execution-related equipment.Are you implying 37,5 gallons would fit in 5 cu. ft.?

[Darrin]

In which book is masterwork basket?


Masterwork tool is in the PHB. It's pretty vague on what can or can't be used as a masterwork tool. I was mostly making a reference to basketweaving as a somewhat popular CharOp joke, but now that I'm hunting around for it... I'm not sure anyone saved Dictum Mortum's Basket Weaver Handbook from the WotC forum purge.



Who the heck will give you a 10 gp outfit for free? :smallconfused:


Player's Handbook page 111 (emphasis added):

"Pick any one of the following clothing outfits for free: artisan’s outfit, entertainer’s outfit, explorer’s outfit, monk’s outfit, peasant’s outfit, scholar’s outfit, or traveler’s outfit."



Are you implying 37,5 gallons would fit in 5 cu. ft.?


Implying? No. I think mathematics covers that pretty well without getting into insinuations or implications. (Actually, I think my math is off by about 0.1 gallons, so it might be closer to 296 flasks of acid, or 1480 GP when you sell it back.)

[TheFurith]

Buy a traveler's outfit for 1 GP, and 300 empty flasks for 3 GP. Fill them with water, pay 150 GP to an NPC spellcaster to cast water to acid (Stormwrack), then sell the acid back for 50% market price. This gets you 1500 GP to spend on execution-related equipment.

If I'm making that kind of money selling acid I am not a traveling professional executioner. I am a professional acid salesman who takes time off of work for vacations to chop off people's heads. At that point it's more of a hobby really....

[Extra Anchovies]

Masterwork tool is in the PHB. It's pretty vague on what can or can't be used as a masterwork tool. I was mostly making a reference to basketweaving as a somewhat popular CharOp joke, but now that I'm hunting around for it... I'm not sure anyone saved Dictum Mortum's Basket Weaver Handbook from the WotC forum purge.

It exists on wayback machine (https://web.archive.org/web/20120311023631/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook?), thankfully.

[dascarletm]

If I'm making that kind of money selling acid I am not a traveling professional executioner. I am a professional acid salesman who takes time off of work for vacations to chop off people's heads. At that point it's more of a hobby really....

Every budding executioner needs a day job. Just make sure you don't sell-out to the man, and stay true to your art.

[Darrin]

If I'm making that kind of money selling acid I am not a traveling professional executioner. I am a professional acid salesman who takes time off of work for vacations to chop off people's heads. At that point it's more of a hobby really....

Most of the suggestions I'm making are intended to be tongue-in-cheek. Very few of them would work with even with a somewhat-delusional DM. You might get that water to acid trick to work once, if you sneak it up on the DM:

Player: "Can I trade in equipment for half price?"

DM: "Yes."

Player: "Ok, so can I trade in this explorer's outfit for 4 GP and a traveler's outfit?"

DM: "Uh... sure."

Player: "Ok, I'm going to buy some empty flasks and fill them with water. There are NPC spellcasting services on this equipment list. Can I buy those?"

DM: "Yes, but it depends on the spell level. Not every community has a high-level spellcaster."

Player: "I just need a 3rd level spell. Is there a 5th level spellcaster available?"

DM: "Sure. What spell?"

Player: "Water to acid. Ok, I spend 150 GP."

DM: "Uh... not sure what you're doing here, but... okay."

Player: "Cool! Ok, I sell back these 300 flasks of acid for 1500 GP."

DM: "What the fu-- like hell you do!"

Player: "Hey, you already said we could trade back equipment for 50%, and you said a 5th level spellcaster was available..."

DM: "Nice try, numbdice. Ok, fine, you get 1500 GP, but next time you or anyone else tries this trick, the 37 gallons of acid are going to appear inside your colon."

From a practical standpoint, I'm having some difficulty gauging the Cheese Tolerance for your DM. He's willing to allow the Sacrifice rules to invoke demonic powers, which sounds like he may be open to some Theoretical Optimization tricks, but might come down hard on wish abuse. Unfortunately, there's a lot of grey area between those two points.

Daremetoidareyou's build gets you up to DC 40 by level 3 (Education gives you another +1 modifier that I forgot to account for), and that's within spitting distance of 45. DC 25 is achievable by level 1-ish, and that can get you the effects of lesser planar ally. As you said, you're not trying to break the game or crack the planet in half, just get some long-term buffs for your character. There's some decent 24-hour buffs available at just the DC 25 level: bless, divine favor, magic vestments, and divine power.

As far as lesser planar ally goes, there may be some lesser demons/outsiders in the 6 HD range you can start with at 1st level, and then work your way up to more powerful creatures later. So when I have some more time, maybe I'll take a closer look at what sort of SLA buffs are available in the 6 HD range. You still have to pay for them (as per the planar ally rules), but if you can work up to an unhallow SLA tied to a "structure" (presumably a mobile execution platform of some sort), then certain spell effects could last an entire year.

[TheFurith]

Every budding executioner needs a day job. Just make sure you don't sell-out to the man, and stay true to your art.

So...what you're saying is I shouldn't invest my acid money in the services of a necromancer to make a giant undead conveyor/guillotine contraption out of beheaded corpses to grab and behead people automatically?