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gooddragon1
2016-09-17, 02:42 AM
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Grand Arbiter
2016-09-17, 08:50 AM
A few ideas:
•TOB maneuvers->Diamond Mind, and any others that use concentration. There's probably a few more in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255468-Homebrew-Martial-Discipline-Compendium).

•Psionics->use some type of focus mechanic like psionics has, though not necessarily psionic itself.

•Maybe some type of combat focus the class can enter? Like a barbarian's rage or dwarves defender's defensive stance. No good ideas for what it would do right now, though.

•An ability to focus and ignore damage temporarily. Maybe like the crusader's delayed damage pool, butt based off of ranks in concentration.

nonsi
2016-09-17, 09:55 AM
don't know if it's of any use, but I remember something about psionics having defense modes and attack modes (I think it's 2e though).

gooddragon1
2016-09-17, 03:53 PM
A few ideas:
•TOB maneuvers->Diamond Mind, and any others that use concentration. There's probably a few more in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255468-Homebrew-Martial-Discipline-Compendium).

•Psionics->use some type of focus mechanic like psionics has, though not necessarily psionic itself.

•Maybe some type of combat focus the class can enter? Like a barbarian's rage or dwarves defender's defensive stance. No good ideas for what it would do right now, though.

•An ability to focus and ignore damage temporarily. Maybe like the crusader's delayed damage pool, but based off of ranks in concentration.

Not sure about maneuvers because I want to make something new. Attaining something like psionic focus is one possibility for a power source of sorts. I might use multiple different power sources. Combat focus is another. Temporary damage delay pool could be tricky, but I'll have to look at the crusader to see how they do it and how it could be modified.


don't know if it's of any use, but I remember something about psionics having defense modes and attack modes (I think it's 2e though).

That's 3.0 psionics actually. Attack and defense modes could be an interesting idea. They sucked in 3.0 psionics but making them without costs and through concentration checks with people unaware of this sort of combat having sort of a default defense could be interesting.

Also, you don't have to stick to published material. Taking ideas from other homebrew or even just ideas of things you wanted to see in a combat class work too.

Zaydos
2016-09-17, 04:06 PM
Only stuff I've made that weaponized Concentration was a class that had abilities based upon exaggerating skills and taking them to new levels. Concentration's was:

Concentration:

Least: You gain Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat and may use it with shields, and weapons (including improvised weapons) in addition to free hands. Once per encounter you may gain a resistance bonus to a saving throw equal to your ranks in Concentration for one save as an immediate action.

Lesser: You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. When fighting defensively, taking a total defense action, or using Combat Expertise for at least a -2 penalty you gain the following benefits: an additional +2 to AC; the ability to deflect a number of arrows in one round (with deflect arrows) equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum 1/round) instead of 1; and if you use the Least Exaggerated Skill saving throw boost it applies until the start of your next turn instead of only against one effect.

Greater: Your focus helps you spot even the smallest opening in opponents and strike. 5-ft steps, swift action movement and standing, as well as swift or immediate action spells, spell-like abilities, psionic powers, and psi-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity from you. In addition any check made to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity (such as a tumble check to move through a square safely or concentration check to cast defensively) has its DC increased by your Tall Tale level (this includes opposed checks). This does not stack with the DC increase from the Iajutsu Focus Exaggerated Skill. When making an attack of opportunity you may add your Constitution to damage.

Storied: Once per encounter you may focus so hard that everything seems to be slowed around you. This is a supernatural ability which duplicates the effects of the Temporal Acceleration power manifested by a psion 1 level lower than your Tall Tale level. In addition you may use the Least Storied Skill’s saving throw bonus effect an additional time each encounter, and in any round in which you have already used it you may use it as a free action even if it is not your turn.

gooddragon1
2016-09-18, 04:29 PM
Only stuff I've made that weaponized Concentration was a class that had abilities based upon exaggerating skills and taking them to new levels. Concentration's was:

Concentration:

Least: You gain Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat and may use it with shields, and weapons (including improvised weapons) in addition to free hands. Once per encounter you may gain a resistance bonus to a saving throw equal to your ranks in Concentration for one save as an immediate action.

Lesser: You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. When fighting defensively, taking a total defense action, or using Combat Expertise for at least a -2 penalty you gain the following benefits: an additional +2 to AC; the ability to deflect a number of arrows in one round (with deflect arrows) equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum 1/round) instead of 1; and if you use the Least Exaggerated Skill saving throw boost it applies until the start of your next turn instead of only against one effect.

Greater: Your focus helps you spot even the smallest opening in opponents and strike. 5-ft steps, swift action movement and standing, as well as swift or immediate action spells, spell-like abilities, psionic powers, and psi-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity from you. In addition any check made to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity (such as a tumble check to move through a square safely or concentration check to cast defensively) has its DC increased by your Tall Tale level (this includes opposed checks). This does not stack with the DC increase from the Iajutsu Focus Exaggerated Skill. When making an attack of opportunity you may add your Constitution to damage.

Storied: Once per encounter you may focus so hard that everything seems to be slowed around you. This is a supernatural ability which duplicates the effects of the Temporal Acceleration power manifested by a psion 1 level lower than your Tall Tale level. In addition you may use the Least Storied Skill’s saving throw bonus effect an additional time each encounter, and in any round in which you have already used it you may use it as a free action even if it is not your turn.

This gives me some ideas for passive abilities, but I'm thinking more along the lines of attacks that get better with concentration. Some defensive abilities, but not a monk level amount of defensive abilities. Just a handful. I don't want to use maneuvers directly because that would be too easy and using existing stuff. The tricky part is that some of the maneuvers I saw (like the one that adds concentration twice to damage) are things I wanted to do. I can't be too restrictive on ideas because it needs to be something fresh.

I'll again open up the question: What are some things that people would like to see a mundane fighting class be able to do?

Another question: Is rolling a concentration check for every attack too much to ask for? Should it be every round and use 1? Should it be per combat? Per day? Some other method?

Zaydos
2016-09-18, 04:36 PM
So thinking something like replace your damage with a Concentration check?

gooddragon1
2016-09-18, 04:44 PM
So thinking something like replace your damage with a Concentration check?

I'm not sure. They've already done that with the maneuver in tome of battle. Maybe a bonus? Though that might be too simple. Unless simpler is better. If I were to just go with my standard design practices it would be a straight correlation. I'm trying to break that trend to make a more interesting class.

Zaydos
2016-09-18, 05:00 PM
I'm not sure. They've already done that with the maneuver in tome of battle. Maybe a bonus? Though that might be too simple. Unless simpler is better. If I were to just go with my standard design practices it would be a straight correlation. I'm trying to break that trend to make a more interesting class.

They have which is exactly why I didn't (though the higher level maneuvers multiply it). I mean it's actually a really good way, and Diamond Mind really is the best discipline (both from 'hey the design works' and 'strongest without a party built to help capitalize on you'*), but it's why I avoided Concentration to damage (plus Tall Tale already has a dozen other skills that go 'I can increase your damage' including Martial Lore to pick up Diamond Mind if you want Diamond Mind).

Concentration check as damage is a good way. +Concentration ranks to damage is just too dip-able or too late. +Concentration ranks up to Lv +3 to damage is effectively 1d6 sneak attack +1d6 sneak attack/3.5 levels (roughly +7d6 sneak attack) except would be multiplied on a crit. Concentration check for bonus damage would be a poor choice (adds an extra roll to every attack, ultimately just means pump concentration to the utmost still). +1d6 damage per 3 ranks in Concentration (capped at ranks = level + 3 if afraid of dipping for the ability) would literally be 7d6 sneak attack on every attack.

Honestly I'd give them Diamond Mind maneuvers. They're well made. Offer a good variety of offense, defense, and utility. Give them a recovery method like 'if you don't use a maneuver for a round you recover a maneuver' or make it just 'if you don't use a maneuver during your turn you recover a maneuver' to facilitate boosts. Don't give them all maneuvers known but something like 10 maneuvers, fewer readied than a warblade as well, and that leaves you with room to give them other class features built on it as well. Otherwise ultimately you'll either be retreading a bunch of maneuvers (mine above retreads Diamond Defense, and takes inspiration from Time Stands Still**). Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but if you're trying to fill out a whole class (instead of a 4th of a class) you need offensive options and those will retread the Concentration check as damage (now they may not wholly, I mean I listed variants above, but either it's just based off of ranks, or skill mods are the least bounded number in the game and thus the easiest to make insane).

*White Raven is head and shoulders strongest in a whole party that likes to charge, if you're the only melee combatant, however, Diamond Mind is best, with the often defamed Desert Wind being the best DPS as long as you aren't fighting fire resistant/immune foes, and actually still vying for it with res 10 (which is common, unlike immunity). That said I still allow Acid Desert Wind. Which helps as acid immunity is 2nd rarest next to sonic, and so is acid resistance.

**Temporal Acceleration while being comparable to Time Stands Still and definitely drawing inspiration from it does not actually fulfill the same mechanistic function.

gooddragon1
2016-09-19, 01:14 PM
They have which is exactly why I didn't (though the higher level maneuvers multiply it). I mean it's actually a really good way, and Diamond Mind really is the best discipline (both from 'hey the design works' and 'strongest without a party built to help capitalize on you'*), but it's why I avoided Concentration to damage (plus Tall Tale already has a dozen other skills that go 'I can increase your damage' including Martial Lore to pick up Diamond Mind if you want Diamond Mind).

Concentration check as damage is a good way. +Concentration ranks to damage is just too dip-able or too late. +Concentration ranks up to Lv +3 to damage is effectively 1d6 sneak attack +1d6 sneak attack/3.5 levels (roughly +7d6 sneak attack) except would be multiplied on a crit. Concentration check for bonus damage would be a poor choice (adds an extra roll to every attack, ultimately just means pump concentration to the utmost still). +1d6 damage per 3 ranks in Concentration (capped at ranks = level + 3 if afraid of dipping for the ability) would literally be 7d6 sneak attack on every attack.

Honestly I'd give them Diamond Mind maneuvers. They're well made. Offer a good variety of offense, defense, and utility. Give them a recovery method like 'if you don't use a maneuver for a round you recover a maneuver' or make it just 'if you don't use a maneuver during your turn you recover a maneuver' to facilitate boosts. Don't give them all maneuvers known but something like 10 maneuvers, fewer readied than a warblade as well, and that leaves you with room to give them other class features built on it as well. Otherwise ultimately you'll either be retreading a bunch of maneuvers (mine above retreads Diamond Defense, and takes inspiration from Time Stands Still**). Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but if you're trying to fill out a whole class (instead of a 4th of a class) you need offensive options and those will retread the Concentration check as damage (now they may not wholly, I mean I listed variants above, but either it's just based off of ranks, or skill mods are the least bounded number in the game and thus the easiest to make insane).

*White Raven is head and shoulders strongest in a whole party that likes to charge, if you're the only melee combatant, however, Diamond Mind is best, with the often defamed Desert Wind being the best DPS as long as you aren't fighting fire resistant/immune foes, and actually still vying for it with res 10 (which is common, unlike immunity). That said I still allow Acid Desert Wind. Which helps as acid immunity is 2nd rarest next to sonic, and so is acid resistance.

**Temporal Acceleration while being comparable to Time Stands Still and definitely drawing inspiration from it does not actually fulfill the same mechanistic function.

I know the maneuvers are well made, but I want this class to be accessible without the need for a book. Also, there are some DM's that feel that ToB is too much for melee and that's why I'd rather take ideas of things people want to see and incorporate that into the class design. If people want stronger stuff there's always going to be the ToB classes and I'd rather not have to have this class compete with that.

Your d6 idea has given me an idea though:

Make a concentration check at the beginning of a round (if you intend on making attacks or perhaps after your first attack in a round). For every 3 points above 10 (starting at 13) you get 1d6 of damage dice you can distribute over your melee attacks over the round. The maximum amount of damage dice you can get from a skill check is 1d6 at 1st level and increases by 1d6 every odd numbered class level. To balance this against the 2h fighter when you do this you are treated as using a weapon in only one hand even if you are using two hands. This affects strength added, power attack, and possibly other things. You might even be more encouraged to use a shield. Though since you still get strength it's probably better if you didn't use weapon finesse and go the dex route (nothing stopping you, but there's better uses for dex like twf and this damage is distributed rather than being constant).

The fluff so far is similar to something I saw somewhere about how when two samurai's swords clash there's a moment when time seems to move more slowly. In this time of concentration on impact with a target in melee the xyz class can partially control their follow through of the attack to make it more effective. This explains why it can't be used in ranged and to a degree how they are dividing up this improved effectiveness over multiple attacks or focusing it on a single attack.

Focusing on improving concentration check is something you can do to an extent with skill ranks, but distribution over stats may require sacrifice of strength. Though there are worse stats to improve than con.

Raw crunch: +1d6 damage pool per 3 points over 10 concentration check. Max 1d6 per 2 levels over 1 with 1d6 at 1. Spread out over attacks as desired.

I still need more than this I think, so I'll probably wait like 2 more days or something.

EDIT: Probably will include a feat and a circlet to improve damage potential to allow a DM to boost damage if necessary.
(like +1d6 max cap, +1 concentration checks for the feat, and 1/2/3d6 max cap and concentration for 3 versions of a circlet)

EDIT2: Going to use the combat focus idea similar to barbarian rage and defensive stance of dwarven defender in a way, but also generating a number of points that can be used during the combat focus state. The abilities of this combat focus and point expenditure will be either utility or defense instead of providing numerical offensive bonuses. Going to need ideas for point expenditure abilities (points will be determined by concentration check whereas duration will be a function of constitution). Will maybe need some secondary external abilities and perks over the levels as well.

CinuzIta
2016-09-20, 08:06 AM
What is the feeling you wanted to go with this class? Did you wanted a "zen master" feel from this class or is that completely up to us as long as it focuses on Concentration checks? Also, do you want it to be a base class or it can also be a prc?

I have an idea in mind. Is anyone familiar with Vagrant Story? Is a very old ps1 game, where the combat worked this way: first, you go in melee with your enemies (reach varies on your weapon, as in d&d more or less, but this isn't important). After you've made your first attack, you can then start chaining other attacks in virtually infinite combos as long as you tap the right buttons in time. Which kind of effect these attacks deals depends on the techniques you've set up and they can span from normal damage, to silence, to poison etc.

I can see something like this by chaining the different attacks with concentration checks (DC equal to damage dealt or enemy AC, depending on the effect, with a -2 malus stacking on every successive check!)

I'm on my phone now and cannot expand further on this, but I'll think (and maybe write) something else later when I'm at the pc!

gooddragon1
2016-09-20, 03:37 PM
What is the feeling you wanted to go with this class? Did you wanted a "zen master" feel from this class or is that completely up to us as long as it focuses on Concentration checks? Also, do you want it to be a base class or it can also be a prc?

At first I wasn't sure. Now it looks like it'll be shaping up into a semi-tank. It's going to be a base class. Dipping with concentration checks would be difficult for me to balance over a smaller distribution.


I have an idea in mind. Is anyone familiar with Vagrant Story? Is a very old ps1 game, where the combat worked this way: first, you go in melee with your enemies (reach varies on your weapon, as in d&d more or less, but this isn't important). After you've made your first attack, you can then start chaining other attacks in virtually infinite combos as long as you tap the right buttons in time. Which kind of effect these attacks deals depends on the techniques you've set up and they can span from normal damage, to silence, to poison etc.

I can see something like this by chaining the different attacks with concentration checks (DC equal to damage dealt or enemy AC, depending on the effect, with a -2 malus stacking on every successive check!)

I'm on my phone now and cannot expand further on this, but I'll think (and maybe write) something else later when I'm at the pc!

Never heard of that game, but since you mention it's ps1 (and I've never had a console) and old it makes sense. Haven't heard of many games though. Just the ones that were easily attainable at stores and had a lot of marketing (diablo, starcraft, etc.).

I'll have to see what you mean by the mechanics in your expanded explanation to get a better idea. I don't want to squelch your idea, but it's looking like I have most of the class thought out. A method of attacking. A method for defense that uses concentration but is different. My current notes in addition to what I've posted above (these pertain to the defensive) are these:

Spending a point during the combat focus
-Temp HP (equal to what +2 con would give) once per combat for duration of combat
-Bonus to AC vs AoO (+1 at 1 and +1/5 levels) for 1 round
-Resistance Bonus on a saving throw (+1 at 1 and +1/5 levels) for 1 saving throw
-Use concentration check in place of 1 grapple check
-Parry a weapon attack with a concentration check vs the attack roll amount. once per round. 50% chance to fail automatically against a critical hit.
-Use concentration in place of sense motive against a feint attempt
-Oppose a trip attempt with a concentration check vs their attack roll (if your result is higher you resist)

Gain 1 method or improve 1 method as follows at 1,4,7,10,13,16,19
Each method has a initial phase and 1 improved phase (need to think of improved phases, could be strictly numerical for simplicity)
So you could gain each one, or some of them and improve others by level 20.

20% chance to evade attacks that use attack rolls for duration of combat focus ability, fatigue afterwards

Uses per day as barbarian

Secondary abilities should be added on as well outside of the main defensive focus and damage ability scaling similar to how the barbarian has extra abilities outside of rage.

d10, good fort, full bab, concentration as class skill

===

Got the final pieces I think:

Once/focus prevent an AoO. Eventually 2 times.
Uncanny dodge.
Reroll spot/listen/search, use concentrate in place eventually, scaled to take level slots.

This fills the gaps with misc abilities.

CinuzIta
2016-09-22, 06:20 AM
I haven't forget about this, I'm just somewhat busy these days! I'll try and write down what I have as soon as possible :)

gooddragon1
2016-09-22, 12:08 PM
I haven't forget about this, I'm just somewhat busy these days! I'll try and write down what I have as soon as possible :)

:(

But I'm publishing the class as we speak... err... post?

CinuzIta
2016-09-22, 02:24 PM
:(

But I'm publishing the class as we speak... err... post?

Yeah, of course, go ahead! I can always post my ideas in here so we can confront them! :)

gooddragon1
2016-09-22, 04:09 PM
Yeah, of course, go ahead! I can always post my ideas in here so we can confront them! :)

Thank you all for your participation in this thread and the ideas you provided.

It's been created at last, and I've done enough proofreading for today imo: Focused Champion (3.5 Base Class) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501462-Focused-Champion-%283-5-Base-Class%29).