Various caster levels

[AnachroNinja]

This is likely a stupid question, but I couldn't find an answer so I'm coming to you folks. If you are a cleric using southern magician or alternate source spell to cast arcane spells, do you have an arcane caster level?

What about if your using that one faerun feat that gives you 3 level 0 spells? Does that give you a caster level? If it does, could you take practiced spellcaster to boost it?

Mostly I'm curious if there is any way to get an arcane caster level on a divine caster to enable it to qualify for obtain/improved familiar.

Any opinions or ideas are appreciated.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's an argument to be made that a character with both southern magician and alternate source spell qualifies as both an arcane and a divine caster for whatever class you're using. It's hardly unambiguous though so; grain of salt.

Magical training (the feat you described but couldn't remember the name for), on the other hand, is crystal clear. You gain an arcane caster level of 1 and a spell-list comprised of the cantrips you've chosen until/unless you take levels in sorcerer/wizard that subsume it. I can't think of anything that would prevent you from taking practiced spellcaster and applying it to your caster level from magical training and using that to qualify for obtain familiar but your familiar would be stuck at the abilities of level 5 arcanist permanently unless you take levels in sorc/wiz.

[Troacctid]

I can't think of anything that would prevent you from taking practiced spellcaster and applying it to your caster level from magical training and using that to qualify for obtain familiar but your familiar would be stuck at the abilities of level 5 arcanist permanently unless you take levels in sorc/wiz.
I can. Practiced Spellcaster (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2) requires you to choose a spellcasting class that you possess. You do not possess any levels in sorcerer or wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I can. Practiced Spellcaster (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2) requires you to choose a spellcasting class that you possess. You do not possess any levels in sorcerer or wizard.

One could argue you have a virtual wizard/sorcerer level, given that you cast arcane spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard thanks to the feat.

Also, a correction; upon reviewing the text, magical training says nothing about what spell-list you do or don't have for activating spell-trigger/completion items. My bad.

[AnachroNinja]

Do you think it would be a reasonable and balanced interpretation to allow southern magician to grant an effective arcane caster level for that purpose? It would essentially force them into taking am extra feat to acquire a familiar, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable cost for what you get. At least in my view. Just not sure because it's easy to biased since I want to find a way for it to work.

[Troacctid]

The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation.
The spell's power source is still ultimately divine, not arcane. It should not count as an arcane caster level.


One could argue you have a virtual wizard/sorcerer level, given that you cast arcane spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard thanks to the feat.
Well that would be a very silly thing to argue, since the feat does not allow you to cast arcane spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would be a lot more powerful than it actually is. :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would allow Obtain Familiar to work with divine spellcaster levels, if it's ever an issue. After all, there's already Wild Cohort and that animal companion ACF for sorcerers and wizards - nothing wrong with returning the favour for divine casters.

[AnachroNinja]

That's sort of my thinking, divine casters don't really have any way to get a good familiar or companion outside of druid (who can get a better version of a familiar) and kind of ranger. I've always felt that was unfair.

[Troacctid]

Don't forget the adept!

...Okay, fine, I guess you can forget the adept if you want.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well that would be a very silly thing to argue, since the feat does not allow you to cast arcane spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would be a lot more powerful than it actually is. :smalltongue:

First line of the benefits section: "You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard."

[Troacctid]

First line of the benefits section: "You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard."
That's not the same as casting spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard. A 1st level sorcerer, for example, would know four cantrips and two 1st level spells.

It's also not the same as being a wizard or sorcerer. You couldn't qualify for the Draconic Heritage feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not the same as casting spells as a 1st level sorcerer or wizard. A 1st level sorcerer, for example, would know four cantrips and two 1st level spells.

You're conflating spells known with the ability to cast them.


It's also not the same as being a wizard or sorcerer. You couldn't qualify for the Draconic Heritage feat.

This we agree on though.

[Troacctid]

You're conflating spells known with the ability to cast them.
Having the ability to cast a handful of spells as if you were a wizard doesn't qualify you as a wizard for any other purposes. Compare the variant ranger that gains wild shape as a druid. If they had no levels in druid, could they take Practiced Spellcaster and choose druid to get the +4 bonus? Most people would say no—being able to do a certain thing as if you were a druid doesn't make you a druid. Same principle here.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Having the ability to cast a handful of spells as if you were a wizard doesn't qualify you as a wizard for any other purposes. Compare the variant ranger that gains wild shape as a druid. If they had no levels in druid, could they take Practiced Spellcaster and choose druid to get the +4 bonus? Most people would say no—being able to do a certain thing as if you were a druid doesn't make you a druid. Same principle here.

Big difference: wildshape ranger gives you -a- feature of the druid. Magical Training gives you -the- feature of a sorcerer or wizard. More importantly, it gives you the class-feature to which practiced spellcaster would apply. If you were to name a feat or feature that gives you the ability to -cast- as a druid, I'd say that they could apply practiced spellcaster to that -casting- ability just as I would for magical training for wiz/sorc.

Last nail in the coffin: would you then argue that wildshape ranger cannot advance his wildshape by other than advancing as a ranger? Everything that advances wildshape says it advances your druid level but the ranger doesn't have any druid levels. What about things that advance animal companion but don't specifically call out ranger as well as druid?

[Soranar]

This is likely a stupid question, but I couldn't find an answer so I'm coming to you folks. If you are a cleric using southern magician or alternate source spell to cast arcane spells, do you have an arcane caster level?

What about if your using that one faerun feat that gives you 3 level 0 spells? Does that give you a caster level? If it does, could you take practiced spellcaster to boost it?

Mostly I'm curious if there is any way to get an arcane caster level on a divine caster to enable it to qualify for obtain/improved familiar.

Any opinions or ideas are appreciated.

Ok so I just reread the feats to be sure of the wording.

The first 2 spells turn your arcane spell or divine spell into a different kind of spell, it doesn't say it grants you a spellcasting type you didn't have before. It does qualify you for requirements that state: must be able to cast 2nd level spells (arcane or divine) which is weird but not what you're looking for.

magical training clearly states that you gain spells as a wizard or sorcerer so practiced spellcaster (wizard or sorcerer) would work with it even though you have no levels in the class

you can also play a kobold (with the ritual that grants you sorcerer spellcasting) and can combine it with practiced spellcaster to gain arcane spellcaster 5 and qualify for the obtain familiar feat

all of this seems overpriced and convoluted just to gain a familiar mind. You could always dip prestige ranger and trade your animal companion for an urban companion (familiar), that seems simpler

otherwise you can dip nar demonbinder (you gain a quasit and a divine spellcaster qualifies)