[3.5] Archer damage optimization

[NickTheGreek3]

Hello again, Playground! I'm making an archer build for a friend and got instructed to make something powerful, yet not (very) cheesy. The guy has picked Catfolk for race, easily hitting 24 DEX without any magic items at level 12 (17 base + 4 from race + 3 at level 4, 8 & 12).

What he's looking for is a longbow-based build and ways to maximize its potential damage as much as possible. For now, I'm leaning towards something like Ranger 6/Scout 4 (level 11, +1 LA) for Favored Enemies and Skirmish damage, though I'm open to suggestions. :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

Hello again, Playground! I'm making an archer build for a friend and got instructed to make something powerful, yet not (very) cheesy. The guy has picked Catfolk for race, easily hitting 24 DEX without any magic items at level 12 (17 base + 4 from race + 3 at level 4, 8 & 12).

What he's looking for is a longbow-based build shooting arrows from a distance and ways to maximize the possible damage as much as possible. For now, I'm leaning towards something like Ranger 6/Scout 4 (level 11, +1 LA) for Favored Enemies and Skirmish damage, though I'm open to suggestions. :smallsmile:

First of all, on that level, level adjustment buyoff should be on the table. Catfolk isn't meaningfully better than the Core races; getting rid of that Level Adjustment makes life a lot more fair. Now, Scout/Ranger sounds like the opposite of what you want. Skirmish-damage is limited to 30' or 60' with Ranged Skirmisher (a Dragon-feat). If you want to be shooting from a distance, I'd rather build for weapon damage. I really like a single level of Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and the Extra Rage-feat [Complete Warrior] or two. Also, Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] is awesome (either as a feat or through Cleric-dip which also grants you two other Domains that can do awesome stuff) and probably worth investing in particularly with the Collector of Stories skill trick. Combined with a bow that adjusts for strength and you're golden.

Bow enhancements are nice; to get some for cheaper, you could use Ancestral Relic [Book of Exalted Deeds] or Item Familiar [Unearthed Arcana] to get 'em cheaper, or just get Mercantile Background [Player's Guide to Faerun] to afford stuff way more easily. Splitting [Champions of Ruin] is a godlike weapon enhancement on Bows and Force [Magic Item Compendium] bypasses most of their weaknesses. Seeking [DMG] is nice and Collision [Expanded Psionics Handbook] is sweet if you can afford it. Don't overinvest but having a weapon enhancement (Splitting as a priority) really makes archery tick.


One option for Ranger is Mystic Ranger [Dragon 336] which would get you Ranger-spells much faster enabling all the archery goodies (Champions of Ruin, Spell Compendium and Player's Handbook II all have good spells for enhancing Archery). Spells are awesome particularly with all the things you can do to your arrows. Definitely something to consider.

[NickTheGreek3]

Now, Scout/Ranger sounds like the opposite of what you want. Skirmish-damage is limited to 30' or 60' with Ranged Skirmisher (a Dragon-feat). If you want to be shooting from a distance, I'd rather build for weapon damage.
Well, not that much of a distance. My friend also wanted to be as far away from the target as possible, but I reminded him that:
1. All the archer goodies that are PBS, Dead Eye and Skirmish require the character to be within 30ft of the target, and
2. The DM usually uses small grid rooms for dungeons (the largest being about 80ft wide IIRC) so there's no point not being within 30ft.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Skirmish, but it's one of the easiest ways to get more damage out of those arrows. I'd probably multiclass to Fighter instead of Scout if I found some feats that boosted arrow damage around the same amount of Skirmish damage.


Bow enhancements are nice; to get some for cheaper, you could use Ancestral Relic [Book of Exalted Deeds] or Item Familiar [Unearthed Arcana] to get 'em cheaper, or just get Mercantile Background [Player's Guide to Faerun] to afford stuff way more easily. Splitting [Champions of Ruin] is a godlike weapon enhancement on Bows and Force [Magic Item Compendium] bypasses most of their weaknesses. Seeking [DMG] is nice and Collision [Expanded Psionics Handbook] is sweet if you can afford it. Don't overinvest but having a weapon enhancement (Splitting as a priority) really makes archery tick.
Unfortunately, we're low on feat slots as it is, with PBS and Precise Shot. Weapon enchants are a given, especially stuff like Bane and Collision (though Splitting is too expensive for our levels).


One option for Ranger is Mystic Ranger [Dragon 336] which would get you Ranger-spells much faster enabling all the archery goodies (Champions of Ruin, Spell Compendium and Player's Handbook II all have good spells for enhancing Archery). Spells are awesome particularly with all the things you can do to your arrows. Definitely something to consider.
I don't know if that's a good trade in this particular case (though I haven't really paid much attention to Ranger spells other than specific ones, like Hunter's Mercy). Plus, the Scout levels mess up the spell progression.

P.S. How come you always recommend Barbarians? :smalltongue:

[Quertus]

I personally prefer 1/2 golem 1/2 dragon 1/2 ogre, with a friendly cleric providing me with BAB and other buffs.

Of course, realistically, that friendly cleric is probably my PC, and the archer is my cohort, or someone else's PC. :smalltongue:

[Zanos]

There's a variant fighter in one of the issues of Dragon Magazine called Targeteer Fighter that lets you add dex to damage instead of strength on targets that aren't immune to critical hits. You have to give up a bonus feat for it. I recommend Deathstrike bracers from MIC so you can use it against stuff immune to crits.

Issue #310, I think.

[Eldariel]

Well, not that much of a distance. My friend also wanted to be as far away from the target as possible, but I reminded him that:
1. All the archer goodies that are PBS, Dead Eye and Skirmish require the character to be within 30ft of the target, and
2. The DM usually uses small grid rooms for dungeons (the largest being about 80ft wide IIRC) so there's no point not being within 30ft.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Skirmish, but it's one of the easiest ways to get more damage out of those arrows. I'd probably multiclass to Fighter instead of Scout if I found some feats that boosted arrow damage around the same amount of Skirmish damage.

Well, Dead Eye has its problems (crit immunity restriction with no way to bypass it + 30' restriction, and requiring 14 BAB to pick) and Point Blank Shot is a minor bonus. Skirmish is decent if you build for it but having to move and being range/concealment/etc. restricted is really annoying. If you stack attacks and bonuses, classic full attack tends to be more than sufficient. The real point though is that you can get more than enough without it, so there is no real need to go for all the situational boosts.

That said, if the campaign is indeed always in close quarters, it shouldn't matter too much then. Though having to move 20' from your starting position in cramped quarters to activate Improved Skirmish can be tricky.


Unfortunately, we're low on feat slots as it is, with PBS and Precise Shot. Weapon enchants are a given, especially stuff like Bane and Collision (though Splitting is too expensive for our levels).

Well, that can be solved with the build. Ranger provides Rapid Shot/Manyshot and e.g. Cloistered Cleric dip can provide Devotions and Point Blank Shot. And like I said, you can use a feat to get the enchantments cheaper. Bane is something to keep on your arrows rather than the weapon proper, unless the campaign is very one-sided in that ergard.


I don't know if that's a good trade in this particular case (though I haven't really paid much attention to Ranger spells other than specific ones, like Hunter's Mercy). Plus, the Scout levels mess up the spell progression.

Aye, that's why I recommend getting more Ranger-levels instead. Ranger spells are pretty cool. Champions of Ruin in particular has awesome spells: 2nd level has Brilliant Energy Arrow (makes an arrow ignore armor) and Spellslayer Arrow (target takes 1d4 damage for each on-going spell affecting her). 3rd level has Arrowsplit which splits an arrow into 1d4+1 arrows (and works flawlessly with Splitting) and Darkflame Arrow (target hit take 2d6 damage for 3 rounds). Then 4th level has Bloodfreeze Arrow (2d6 damage + paralysis), Doublestrike Arrow (hit two targets with a single arrow) and Shadow Arrow (arrow deals additional 1d6 Strength damage). All affect a single arrow for 1 round and are swift action to cast; so basically, a spell > full attack. You can even use metamagic rods; Maximized Arrowsplit is straight-up 4 extra arrows for instance.

Ranger also offers Hunter's Eye [Player's Handbook II] which grants you very significant amounts of Sneak Attack particularly with Mystic Ranger (probably gets full caster level) which can be combined with other spells for good times. 1d6/3 Caster Levels. Spell Compendium includes Foebane, a 4th level spell which makes your weapon a +5 weapon dealing 2d6 bonus damage vs. a favored enemy for rounds/level. Find the Gap is a 3rd level spell (standard action, rounds/level) making your first attack each round be a touch attack. Can be combined with Manyshot very nicely if you end up in close quarters.


P.S. How come you always recommend Barbarians? :smalltongue:

It just so happens many problems can be solved through copious amounts of brute strength :smalltongue: For archers in particular, getting that extra attack and a bit of extra damage is just sweet though. Hits the spot, covers all their weaknesses and only takes a single level, while getting you movement speed or pounce while at it. A rather sweet deal overall. Even a decent amount of skill points and HP!


There's a variant fighter in one of the issues of Dragon Magazine called Targeteer Fighter that lets you add dex to damage instead of strength on targets that aren't immune to critical hits. You have to give up a bonus feat for it. I recommend Deathstrike bracers from MIC so you can use it against stuff immune to crits.

Issue #310, I think.

The more important power of Targeteer is giving you 2 extra attacks at -5 for all attacks (Arrow Swarm). That one is just sweet. Archery to hit is easy to buff and just getting a ton of attacks is a very valid means of dealing sufficiently ridiculous damage to end any creature in the game that lacks key immunities.

[NickTheGreek3]

Well, Dead Eye has its problems (crit immunity restriction with no way to bypass it + 30' restriction, and requiring 14 BAB to pick)
Oh my... :smalleek:
In dndtools, it stated +1 BaB prereq. Serves me right googling the feats instead of looking their supplements, I guess.


There's a variant fighter in one of the issues of Dragon Magazine called Targeteer Fighter that lets you add dex to damage instead of strength on targets that aren't immune to critical hits. You have to give up a bonus feat for it. I recommend Deathstrike bracers from MIC so you can use it against stuff immune to crits.

Issue #310, I think.
The fighter variant looks interesting, I'll check it out.


The more important power of Targeteer is giving you 2 extra attacks at -5 for all attacks (Arrow Swarm). That one is just sweet. Archery to hit is easy to buff and just getting a ton of attacks is a very valid means of dealing sufficiently ridiculous damage to end any creature in the game that lacks key immunities.
Won't that make for a huge penalty to attack?

[Soranar]

The most powerful archer builds that I can think of are rather counter intuitive

If you do the math, nothing really out damages a simple fighter that uses weapon specialization

you get 2 from normal specialization
another +2 from greater specialization
another +2 from piercing ranged weapon specialization
add your DEX to damage from hit and run fighter (you lose nothing important in exchange, vs flat footed only mind)
add your DEX to damage again from deadeye
add 1.5 times your STR if you're insane enough to use a raptoran footbow (might as well be a raptoran while you're at it)

Combine that with full BAB, a splitting enchant and you end up with a fairly decent (if boring) archer that works at any range. Also the to hit bonus (2 from the weapon focus, 2 more from piercing ranged specialization) lets you hit often enough for it to be worth it

Since you have a ton of feats, you can also throw in the educated feat + knowledge devotion (though it's hard to have enough skillpoints to fuel that)

So , against a flatfooted opponent within 30 ft, you deal 1d8 damage + 2x your DEX + 1.5 your STR+ 6+ knowledge devotion

The best weapon for an archer is an energy bow, nothing compares to it assuming its allowed

If you want a different option , there's always this mind arrow trick

Take 2 levels of soulknife (no choice , they're required for soulbow)
Take 1 level of monk (with the decisive strike ACF)
Take 2 levels of Factotum
Take 1 level of soulbow (now take the flowing blade feat, most DMs allow decisive strike to count as flurry of blows)
You can now use Decisive strike with your mind arrows, even though you only shoot once you do double damage which helps a lot against DR
Take at least 6 more levels of Factotum
Try to dip Shiba protector if its allowed

Now the ''trick'' comes on
Grant yourself extra actions with your Factotum abilities
use manyshot: every shot you make now deals double damage because of decisive strike
the best enchantment to combine with this is collision (since collision damage gets doubled by decisive strike) and splitting

Since you have so few levels of soulknife and soulbow, you need to use Mau Jehe (a weapon of legacy) to use as a weapon, it's the only weapon that a soulknife can use as his mind blade. You can enchant it and put a crystal on it. If you take the Champion of Legacy prestige class, you can also customize it any way you want (and keep progressing your factotum abilities).

your mind arrows deal 2d8 damage (1d8 times 2) + 4 times your WIS (once from Soulbow, once from Shiba times 2)
and you can add your INT to damage if you're willing to spend an inspiration point on it (though its probably better to save your Inspiration points for more attacks

The second combo takes forever to truly come on but it's devastating when it does
The first combo progresses gradually but is harder to optimize outside combat (due to the terrible fighter chassis)

If you're looking for something simpler yet more versatile, technically you can just go factotum and dip monk (I would take Carmendine monk or kung fu genius if you choose to do that) and you still take decivise strike

Instead of using mind arrows, just throw a shuriken as your decisive strike attack then use a bow and arrows for your extra standard actions with manyshot.

your progression would be a lot simpler too (factotum 8, dip monk and take manyshot at level 9, go factotum the rest of the way)

[Soranar]

Oh my... :smalleek:
In dndtools, it stated +1 BaB prereq. Serves me right googling the feats instead of looking their supplements, I guess.


actually that feat was reprinted in dragon compendium and it's been errata'd to +1 BAB requirement, google did not fail you

[Eldariel]

The most powerful archer builds that I can think of are rather counter intuitive

If you do the math, nothing really out damages a simple fighter that uses weapon specialization

you get 2 from normal specialization
another +2 from greater specialization
another +2 from piercing ranged weapon specialization
add your DEX to damage from hit and run fighter (you lose nothing important in exchange, vs flat footed only mind)
add your DEX to damage again from deadeye
add 1.5 times your STR if you're insane enough to use a raptoran footbow (might as well be a raptoran while you're at it)

Combine that with full BAB, a splitting enchant and you end up with a fairly decent (if boring) archer that works at any range. Also the to hit bonus (2 from the weapon focus, 2 more from piercing ranged specialization) lets you hit often enough for it to be worth it

Since you have a ton of feats, you can also throw in the educated feat + knowledge devotion (though it's hard to have enough skillpoints to fuel that)

There are plenty of other classes to use. Tome of Battle classes get extra attacks (Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still), Barbarian gets extra attacks, etc. 4 level Fighter-dip gets you almost everything and even a 1-2 level dip is sufficient if you skip on Ranged Weapon Mastery (which is a good feat but not obligatory) - and hell, if you want it, Fighter/Warblade or Pious Templar can pick it up just as easily. Fighter is a nice dip but poor as the primary class. Greater Weapon Focus+Specialization still isn't worth taking 8 levels in Fighter. You get better returns anywhere else.

And yeah, there's the skillpoint and spell matter too. Skillpoints enable not only Knowledge Devotion but Hide and Spot are pretty great on an Archer too (for setting range of engagement in a one-sided manner) and of course, spells are ultimately the best way to buff your damage. Fighter's bonuses are essentially dwarfed by a single spell.


Oh my... :smalleek:
In dndtools, it stated +1 BaB prereq. Serves me right googling the feats instead of looking their supplements, I guess.

Aye, that's the Dragon Magazine #310 version. It got updated in Dragon Compendium with much more stringent requirements. The Archery Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2892.0) covers much of this stuff, actually.

EDIT: Soranar is correct, it seems. There is actually a Dragon Compendium errata that had escaped me earlier, and that changes the BAB requirement back.


Won't that make for a huge penalty to attack?

Yes, but there are lots of options for buffing your To Hit and you tend to have more than enough to start with. Improved Rapid Shot is essentially +2 to hit, Knowledge Devotion leaves you with a lot of superfluous To Hit (since you can't use Power Shot to dump excess To Hit anyways), you'll have full BAB and high Dex making for high base values, weapon enhancements add a bonus, and then should you add Ranged Weapon Mastery that's another +3, and there's the ultimate option in Woodland Archer [Races of the Wild] which gives you +4 to subsequent attacks after a miss. With enough attacks that allows you to reliably hit & kill a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) by level 20 (my favorite Archer-build is Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 using Time Stands Still + Island in Time + Eternal Training > Time Stands Still for 50+ attacks in a turn - though the reason I like that specific build is the ability to take immediate action turns).

[gorfnab]

Oh my... :smalleek:
In dndtools, it stated +1 BaB prereq. Serves me right googling the feats instead of looking their supplements, I guess.

+1 BAB is actually correct according to the Dragon Compendium errata (http://paizo.com/download/dragon/compendium/DragonCompendiumVolumeIErrata.pdf).

Here are two Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0) builds I've used before

Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout (CAdv) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Alertness (prereq for SoK)
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF, CM), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter (CS)
6. Scout - Favored of the Champions (prereq for SoK, BoED)
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Stalker of Kharash (BoED)
9. Stalker of Kharash - Nemesis: Evil (BoED)
10. Ranger - B: Endurance
11. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF, PHBII)
12. Ranger - Improved Skirmish (CS)
13. Ranger - B: Manyshot
14. Ranger
15. Ranger - Greater Manyshot (XPH)
16. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF, CM)
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Darkstalker (LoM), B: Improved Precise Shot
19. Ranger
20. Ranger


Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Education (PGtF)
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Improved Skirmish
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF), Knowledge Devotion (CC)
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
15. Ranger - Darkstalker
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - *Open Feat*
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

*Penetrating Shot, Nemesis: Arcanist, Dead Eye (Drg#304), Deadly Aim (Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat)), or some other appropriate feat. If you're playing in Forgotten Realms take Sword of the Arcane Order at 15th and Darkstalker or Nemesis: Arcanist at 18th.

[Soranar]

The Warblade is definitely an option but there's a few problems with it.

First, you can't recover your maneuvers with ranged weapons (must be a melee attack)
Second, you don't have bow proficiency (but that can be worked with)
Third the mongoose abilities are fairly high level but the warblade chassis is still pretty good so getting there isn't that much of an issue I guess.

[Eldariel]

First, you can't recover your maneuvers with ranged weapons (must be a melee attack)

I worked around that by getting a natural attack and using it as a secondary while recovering maneuvers. No penalties, just attack a square next to you as a flourish in lieu of your full attack and then take the swift action to recover manoeuvres. There's an 8k item called Fanged Mask in MiC that gives you a Bite to this end, for instance.


Second, you don't have bow proficiency (but that can be worked with). Third the mongoose abilities are fairly high level but the warblade chassis is still pretty good so getting there isn't that much of an issue I guess.

Yeah, you generally want to multiclass a bit anyways so bow proficiencies are a subsidiary. Targeteer actually gets Footbow or Greatbow with that free EWP. And yeah, stuff like Sudden Leap, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge & co. makes the Warblade-levels nice to have even on lower levels. Not to mention the utility/detection stances (though I like to keep Leading the Charge around and pick up Pounce from Barbarian; since I tend to prioritise Strength on Archers anyways, this allows you to do a surprisingly decent job in melee with just a Valorous weapon and perhaps Power Attack).

[Soranar]

Now I've just thought of a fairly weird archery build but it should work

First, you have to be an erudite (since , technically, it can learn any discipline power this should be your go to guy). And since Control body specifies that it uses INT, an INT based character makes sense). Other classes can make this happen with the expanded knowledge feat.

Second you need to be an outsider (to abuse metamorphosis), so we'll say a neraph from the planar handbook

Key powers for this combo

Sollicit Pricrystal (your Psicrystal maintains concentration for you)
Control Body (you now use your INT to hit and damage, requires concentration which is covered by sollicit psicrystal)
Metamorphosis (you become an arrow demon which doubles your attacks)
Combat Transformation (you gain fighter BAB)
Temporal acceleration (to do all of this in 1 turn, since you target yourself with control body this works)

You could , possibly, use schism to control your body twice per turn. Technically nothing says you can't. You only get standard actions this way but there's always manyshot for that although I'm pretty sure a DM would never allow this.

[Telok]

Oddly, simple cleric. Try to snag Elf, War, and possibly Knowledge domains. Craft Wand, DMM Extend and Reach (you could persist but it's not required). If you get Knowledge take the devotion feat.

Elf gets you Truestrike, pick up Manyshot and a +1 Collision bow with a wand chamber. Do a sampling of the usual CoDzilla buffs and pick up partial batches of Bane arrows.

Sure you only shoot every other round. You also ignore concealment, get +18ish to damage on multiple arrows with one roll, and have your move actions and cleric spells.

[Eldariel]

Oddly, simple cleric. Try to snag Elf, War, and possibly Knowledge domains. Craft Wand, DMM Extend and Reach (you could persist but it's not required). If you get Knowledge take the devotion feat.

Elf gets you Truestrike, pick up Manyshot and a +1 Collision bow with a wand chamber. Do a sampling of the usual CoDzilla buffs and pick up partial batches of Bane arrows.

Sure you only shoot every other round. You also ignore concealment, get +18ish to damage on multiple arrows with one roll, and have your move actions and cleric spells.

Huh. I agree except with the True Strike/Manyshot part. It should be a backup plan at best. Codzilla's greatest power is stacking up bonuses and hitting is thus hardly a challenge, and Rapid Shot + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (or any Haste-equivalent) gives you two more arrows and thus ridiculous amounts of extra damage over Manyshot by default. Plus you can always move as auxiliary actions, and use other sources of even more arrows. Each arrow will deal ridiculous damage anyways, particularly if you enter the world of persistomancy (level 11 Cleric is getting 6th level spells so the real good stuff is on the table) up and including Arrow Demon Draconic Polymorph through Greater Anyspell and Otherworldly or Neraph.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about Mystic Ranger 10/ Peerless Archer? MR can get you fast access to the arrow split spell (turns a single attack into 1d4+1 arrows) and PA gets you power shot, the ranged power attack for archers. Great for getting past damage reduction.

[Telok]

Well yeah, you can go all out persisto-CoDzilla and pwn all the fights. But the original post has a request for low/mid cheese and catfolk as race. Plus every resource you devote to more buffs and arrows and damage takes away from other areas.

Also, I don't assume that stacking nightsticks are on the table. Which is pretty much a requirement for anything beyond one persisted spell unless persist is the character's only trick.

[flappeercraft]

I would suggest having a continuous Item of the Hunters Mercy spell from SpC. Its only 8k GP if for a body slot and it makes your first arrow to hit in a round be a automatical crit of x3 damage no confirming roll.

[Eldariel]

I would suggest having a continuous Item of the Hunters Mercy spell from SpC. Its only 8k GP if for a body slot and it makes your first arrow to hit in a round be a automatical crit of x3 damage no confirming roll.

1) Continuous custom item. Unlikely to ever get accepted.
2) Doesn't work. Hunter's Mercy only applies on the first hit of your next round no matter how long its duration is.
3) Subject to the standard crit limitations. Various spells, items and creatures grant/have immunity.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, not that much of a distance. My friend also wanted to be as far away from the target as possible, but I reminded him that:
1. All the archer goodies that are PBS, Dead Eye and Skirmish require the character to be within 30ft of the target, and
2. The DM usually uses small grid rooms for dungeons (the largest being about 80ft wide IIRC) so there's no point not being within 30ft.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Skirmish, but it's one of the easiest ways to get more damage out of those arrows. I'd probably multiclass to Fighter instead of Scout if I found some feats that boosted arrow damage around the same amount of Skirmish damage.


Unfortunately, we're low on feat slots as it is, with PBS and Precise Shot. Weapon enchants are a given, especially stuff like Bane and Collision (though Splitting is too expensive for our levels).


I don't know if that's a good trade in this particular case (though I haven't really paid much attention to Ranger spells other than specific ones, like Hunter's Mercy). Plus, the Scout levels mess up the spell progression.

P.S. How come you always recommend Barbarians? :smalltongue:
a ranger spell called Guided Shot
h t t p ://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/complete-adventurer--54/guided-shot--374/
remove spaces

that will allow him to use all the low range stuff at max range of the bow(or the spot check, some builds like one I made have a range so high that I wasn't able to spot at max range)

[DarkSoul]

I worked around that by getting a natural attack and using it as a secondary while recovering maneuvers. No penalties, just attack a square next to you as a flourish in lieu of your full attack and then take the swift action to recover manoeuvres. There's an 8k item called Fanged Mask in MiC that gives you a Bite to this end, for instance.Elvencraft Bow from Races of the Wild. 300 gold and your short bow functions as a club, your longbow functions as a quarterstaff, you can freely change between melee and ranged for your attacks, and you always threaten squares.

[Eldariel]

Elvencraft Bow from Races of the Wild. 300 gold and your short bow functions as a club, your longbow functions as a quarterstaff, you can freely change between melee and ranged for your attacks, and you always threaten squares.

Sadly that doesn't bypass the problem of needing a melee attack for refreshing Warblade maneuvers. Well, unless you TWF but then you take -4 on your bow attacks too; natural weapons bestow no penalties on your primaries so they're the preferable option.

[DarkSoul]

Sadly that doesn't bypass the problem of needing a melee attack for refreshing Warblade maneuvers. Well, unless you TWF but then you take -4 on your bow attacks too; natural weapons bestow no penalties on your primaries so they're the preferable option.You can use an elvencraft bow without twf, if you're willing to sacrifice your first attack from your full attack swinging at an adjacent square, then just go back to firing arrows. Otherwise being an archer pretty much relegates you to the swift + standard recovery.

[Eldariel]

You can use an elvencraft bow without twf, if you're willing to sacrifice your first attack from your full attack swinging at an adjacent square, then just go back to firing arrows. Otherwise being an archer pretty much relegates you to the swift + standard recovery.

There's no need to sacrifice your first attack; your last will do just as well. Still, again, e.g. Fanged Mask is only 8k and there are no penalties on primaries for using secondary naturals so that's the easiest way to qualify by the letter without sacrificing anything. Or of course, some races have natural naturals so that works too.

[Darrin]

There's no need to sacrifice your first attack; your last will do just as well. Still, again, e.g. Fanged Mask is only 8k and there are no penalties on primaries for using secondary naturals so that's the easiest way to qualify by the letter without sacrificing anything. Or of course, some races have natural naturals so that works too.

I like throwing Dragonborn on my archers, and rangers even more so. If you're human, you can drop any other feat you have instead of your human bonus feat, and that includes stuff like shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, etc. Also, Track and Endurance are just sitting there, doing nothing. So trade one of those for Dragon Tail, and there's your secondary natural attack.