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NecroDancer
2016-09-18, 12:57 AM
Just make a villian! They get to be overpowered, are intergal to the story, they can be just as complex (if not more complex) than the PCs, and they help keep the PCs on track (by threat of death if not stopped).

ellindsey
2016-09-19, 10:03 AM
Just remember not to fall in love with your villain DMPC so much that he can never be defeated. Nothing pisses players off more than the villain who always escapes, teleports away, has a body double, comes back from the dead, etc, because the DM loves them too much to stop using them.

Geddy2112
2016-09-19, 10:13 AM
Most DMPC's are going to end up hated, resented, and become a major pain in the behind to the players. With a villain, you get to do these things intentionally, and the players get the reward of snuffing the life out of the SOB at the end of the game.

I would say that any good antagonist should be a "DMPC" in the sense that they should have as much depth and development as a PC. They should also have ranks/levels/system equal of these in a PC class/system equal.

Just make sure the spotlight stays on the party, and that even the greatest antagonist can die/be beaten.

Eldan
2016-09-19, 10:55 AM
The thing I found is to have them join the party as a helper and then have no initiative whatsoever. They can pretty much take any roll, as long as they let others make all the decisions. In fact, make sure they don't do anything much unless told by another player. Rogue DMPC? "Check that corridor for traps. Then tell us what's around that corner." Wizard DMPC? "Teleport us back to town." Cleric DMPC? "Unpetrify the fighter, then lift all those curses, will you." FIghter DMPC? "Okay, you hold back that horde of 600 gnolls at the gate while we bind the demon."

Geddy2112
2016-09-19, 11:05 AM
The thing I found is to have them join the party as a helper and then have no initiative whatsoever. They can pretty much take any roll, as long as they let others make all the decisions. In fact, make sure they don't do anything much unless told by another player. Rogue DMPC? "Check that corridor for traps. Then tell us what's around that corner." Wizard DMPC? "Teleport us back to town." Cleric DMPC? "Unpetrify the fighter, then lift all those curses, will you." FIghter DMPC? "Okay, you hold back that horde of 600 gnolls at the gate while we bind the demon."

That is good for small parties(3 or less) that really lack a role the game assumes they would have. Having an idiot savant or specific tool DMPC for this purpose is fine, but they are not really a PC at that point. They don't(and can't) do a dang thing outside their very narrow skillset and they only use their skills when needed, to the point they are more of an object and less of a PC. PC implies that they are a character, that they do character things. But the robot DMPC that is used as an object by the party is no different than the parties weapons, armor, scrolls, and other items.

Certainly, there are games where this is needed. Your party is a bunch of fragile casters, feeble, unable to fight their way out of a wet paper bag and encumbered by their gold? Throw them a Hodor BSF to tank, hit things, carry stuff. Party has no ability to heal or use curative magic? Throw them the fragile temple acolyte, or the elder cleric who is blind in one eye and has trouble walking.

SethoMarkus
2016-09-19, 02:37 PM
I don't really believe in DMPCs. Not in the sense that I don't think they exist, but that I try my darnest not to use them. I try to use NPCs in their place. There may be a time they work with or travel with the PCs; they may be complex and interesting; they may come along to fulfill one specific task that thr PCs cannot; but, the spotlight is always on the PCs, and the NPC is always a side character. If the NPC is needed to bind a demon to "save the world", the PCs are needed to defeat the avatar of that demon so the NPC can trap its soul; thr NPC could be replaced with a special dagger or a magic urn or any other item, but isn't because the NPC has personality. They functionally are just a tool, though. An NPC and the PCs don't see eye-to-eye? The NPC doesn't try to coerce the PCs down certain road, she just walks away, perhaps to become an adversary later on. The one-of-a-kind-plot-hook NPC is about to die, making the quest "impossible"? The NPC dies and now the PCs have another adventure of finding an alternative means to their ends; there is always an alternative means, somewhere. I used to try to put DMPCs into my games. I used to try to give the token tagalong healer or batman wizard, but if I were playing a character like that while DMing, I invariably ended up wanting to play that character, not DM. I know this whole post is based on a very fine, very semantic distinction, but it is one that mentally allows me to run characters alongside the party without stepping on their toes or growing weary of the DM's chair.

Traab
2016-09-19, 02:59 PM
How To Make An Amazing DMPC

Step 1: Dont make it an all powerful being that overshadows the party and controls the entire story.

Step 2: There is no step 2. Just following step 1 will amaze your group. /nod

Dragonexx
2016-09-19, 03:53 PM
I suppose it depends on the group. Almost every game I've GM'd or played in has had a GMPC, and most of the time, it's without issue (there was some stuff way in the past that was bad, but that was because I was a brand new GM at the time). Fundamentally, you can play whatever class or character you want, provided you try to avoid upstaging the players.

Also, this:

There is seriosly nothing wrong with DMPCs. At its core, it's the DM telling you that the NPC assistant you get is playing by the same rules that the rest of you are. And while the temptation exists to drop artifact swords, high born lovers, and special mecha armor on the DMPC, that temptation exists for NPCs who don't have a character sheet as well.

Everyone has a story of a DMPC gone power mad. But how many more stories do you have of transient or recurrent NPCs who show up and slap you with a virtual penis?

DMPCs are not only a requirement of a rotating DMing system - they are at the core a system of checks and balances on the DM's actions. The DM giving a name and a character sheet to the party cleric or decker is the DM's way of promising that that character won't whip it out on the table as some sort of stupid power trip. Now, he's the DM, he can break a promise. But there's nothing wrong with him making it in the first place.

-Frank

tensai_oni
2016-09-19, 04:19 PM
A villain DMPC is just as bad as one who is technically on the players' side. Having a hideously overpowered "helper" who overshadows the party constantly is bad enough, but if the same character is supposed to be the bad guy? The players won't be able to achieve anything meaningful against the villain and will quickly start feeling useless and generally frustrated at the game. Having a very powerful antagonist is fine, but the player characters need to score some successes too. That's what makes them the protagonists.

Note that by DMPC I mean a character who the game master is very defensive and protective of, who can do no wrong and isn't ever inconvenienced by the party (or doesn't need them for anything). Surprisingly being overpowered (at least in an immediately obvious way) is not a pre-requesite. If a DMPC lacks these negative qualities, it's not a DMPC. Just an NPC, even if it's one that hangs out around the party a lot.

Amaril
2016-09-19, 08:47 PM
I feel like if, for some reason, you have to have a full-fledged DMPC tagging along with the party, the best kind of character to use (leaving aside the issue of filling a missing party role) is a bard who serves as the party's herald and/or chronicler. For one, as a support character, they won't overshadow the PCs in combat, and can actually serve to make them feel more awesome with buffs. For another, their main job outside of combat will be to tell people how great the PCs are and all the cool things they've done; you can have them genuinely be a fan of the PCs' exploits, so they're just as invested in it as the people they're telling the stories to. And third, as someone tasked with recording what the party does to put in the stories later, they're a convenient in-character source of recap information if anyone forgets about previous events or clues.

RazorChain
2016-09-19, 08:51 PM
Just make a villian! They get to be overpowered, are intergal to the story, they can be just as complex (if not more complex) than the PCs, and they help keep the PCs on track (by threat of death if not stopped).

You do realize what DMPC is? A Dungeon Master Player Character. The Dungeon Master takes the role of a player in his own campaign with his own character. A villain is an non player character.

Rhyvurg
2016-09-20, 04:10 AM
In my experience a DMPC can work if you choose to make them limited or sub-par in some way. Not useless but not going to overshadow anyone.

RazorChain
2016-09-20, 04:33 AM
I'm just going to ask you as players, what do you think about DMPC's?

I don't like them, not as a player or a GM

vasilidor
2016-09-20, 06:28 AM
my favorite villain is the level seven wizard, just powerful enough to be a major threat to any low level party while still at risk of being one-shotted by the barbarians great ax. In one game I had run, the only reason the wizard, while invisibly gloating, survived being hit with just that from the level one barbarian is he rolled low (read all ones) on the crit damage. got away with only 5 hp left. if he had raged first, then swung, it would have ended him then and there, if he had lost the initiative, he may not have lived.

I have also used them to direct large mobs of undead at the party, only to run away, bully/charm bandits and monsters into working for them, and be scryers for the big bad to keep tabs on the party after they pick up the mcguffin. if done right you can use this npc to annoy/threaten them from first level into their teen levels. without ever increasing their level even!

I have not, however, at any point made it so the annoying level seven wizard escaped via fiat. I always give them escape routes planned out, because i think they would consider not having one stupid. everything was always done in initiative order, letting the dice land where they may.

kyoryu
2016-09-20, 10:11 AM
Also, this:

Quoting FrankTrollman is more likely to make an argument more contentious than settle it.

ellindsey
2016-09-20, 01:54 PM
The players in the Pathfinder game I run forced me to have a DMPC. For their introductory adventure, I had a farmboy (built as a level 1 Fighter) come and ask them for help dealing with a small group of bandits terrorizing the village. He was intended to be a one-shot helper, there to hook them into the plot and also round out the party, which at the time consisted of a monk, cleric, and rogue. But when the adventure was over, the high-charisma half-elf rogue with maxed out social skills asked my NPC if he would please come along as her protector. I looked at his sheet, with penalties to WIS, and realized that there was no way he wouldn't agree to that. Since then I've tried hard to avoid having him be either overpowering or so useless that he's a drag on the party, and my players have insisted on having him be a permanent part of the party as much as I'd like to get rid of him.

vasilidor
2016-09-20, 03:59 PM
The players in the Pathfinder game I run forced me to have a DMPC. For their introductory adventure, I had a farmboy (built as a level 1 Fighter) come and ask them for help dealing with a small group of bandits terrorizing the village. He was intended to be a one-shot helper, there to hook them into the plot and also round out the party, which at the time consisted of a monk, cleric, and rogue. But when the adventure was over, the high-charisma half-elf rogue with maxed out social skills asked my NPC if he would please come along as her protector. I looked at his sheet, with penalties to WIS, and realized that there was no way he wouldn't agree to that. Since then I've tried hard to avoid having him be either overpowering or so useless that he's a drag on the party, and my players have insisted on having him be a permanent part of the party as much as I'd like to get rid of him.

this is when you murder him, if you want make a part of a BBEG plot.

RazorChain
2016-09-20, 06:43 PM
The players in the Pathfinder game I run forced me to have a DMPC. For their introductory adventure, I had a farmboy (built as a level 1 Fighter) come and ask them for help dealing with a small group of bandits terrorizing the village. He was intended to be a one-shot helper, there to hook them into the plot and also round out the party, which at the time consisted of a monk, cleric, and rogue. But when the adventure was over, the high-charisma half-elf rogue with maxed out social skills asked my NPC if he would please come along as her protector. I looked at his sheet, with penalties to WIS, and realized that there was no way he wouldn't agree to that. Since then I've tried hard to avoid having him be either overpowering or so useless that he's a drag on the party, and my players have insisted on having him be a permanent part of the party as much as I'd like to get rid of him.

That isn't a DMPC. This is a henchman to the bard who used her charm to drag some poor sucker (NPC) along as cannon fodder.

My players drag myriad of NPC's along with them on different occasions but those are NPC's they hire/convince on their own volition.

When this happens I usually just make those NPC's the players responsibility in combat.

NecroDancer
2016-09-20, 07:53 PM
I'm just going to ask you as players, what do you think about DMPC's?

I don't like them, not as a player or a GM

I hate DMPCs that try to join the PCs party, I love Villians that have class levels, act like a PC, and have as much depth as a PC. If a DM treats a villian like a PC (thus making it a DMPC) the villian is way more amazing.

RazorChain
2016-09-20, 09:53 PM
I hate DMPCs that try to join the PCs party, I love Villians that have class levels, act like a PC, and have as much depth as a PC. If a DM treats a villian like a PC (thus making it a DMPC) the villian is way more amazing.


The GM should treat every major NPC in the world with thought and care and give them motivation and backstories. You can do this without giving them a single level of anything. I still think you are confusing DMPC and NPC. A villain is almost always a major NPC. The difference between a major NPC and a minor can be both measured in presence and power. A NPC that is present a lot of the time will most often be a Major NPC, a powerful NPC that can project it's presence through power will almost always be a Major NPC as well.

A random passerby that the PC's ask for direction and never see again is a Minor NPC.

DMPC is when the Dungeon Master decides he wants his own character and be a DM at the same time and usually forces that abomination upon the poor players while he pleasures himself with stealing screen time. DMPC is a form of mental masturbation that IMO has no place in rpg's