Epic Levels: The Next Chapter

[ReluctantDragon]

So, as has been mentioned multiple times, in an almost constant chorus on these boards, if you're playing epic, and not a spellcaster, you're doing something wrong in terms of optimization. As much as I detest such sentiment, there is no denying that mechanically speaking, that is a correct statement.

How to adjust that? That is the question.

Basically the intent of this post is to garner ideas from interested parties on how to "fix" epic play. Keep in mind that there will be no changes to levels 1-20. The Wizard still wins D&D at 20th level, its there, we'll deal with it.

My hopes are to either adjust epic spellcasting so that it does not absolutely ruin the game for non-casters, OR ban it outright with an alternative so that casters don't get ignored in epic.

Also another hope is to mitigate how much casters dominate the mechanics of the game in general. Be it giving boosts to non-caster classes in epic levels, or by other means. (I like the idea of this path, seeing as the image in my mind of a truly epic swordsman would need the kind of things in epic levels to take on an all powerful wizard.)

Also I would like to see suggestions on item changes, feat suggestions, etc.

Take into account that any changes assume access to all WOTC published books(not Dragon or Dungeon magazine).

Also any suggestions are welcome, yet I don't want this to turn into an argument thread over one mechanic being better than another.

Thanks in advance for your time and have fun!

[Kurald Galain]

Fixing epic play is an epic-level challenge.

It has all the balance problems of moderate-to-high level pre-epic, only moreso.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Banning Epic Spellcasting is almost a must. Creating far better Epic feats for melee types (comparable to, say, Improved Metamagic or Multispell) is also very good... for example, acquiring Mettle and Evasion via feats, or improving Touch AC, or getting permanent Pounce (Dire Charge is ridiculously weak), or making one attack per X feat taken into a touch attack (take it five times, you can make five attacks/round as touch attacks), or ways to negate crit immunity and the like...

You could replace Epic casting with new Epic Metamagic feats.

[Elana]

As it is currently you gain no more fighting progress by taking levels as a fighter, than you get with wizard levels.

The only way to fix that would be to let the BAB increase normally.
But restrict the amount of base attacks to 4. (Otherwise the amount of dice rolling can get ridiculous)


Combined with feats like power attack it should give the fighter some chance to compete damage wise.


The magic rules have to be altered so that no matter what modifiers you add you can't reduce an epic spell under half the DC of all the things you have added in.


or as an alternate route, throw the new magic rules overboard and put new spells in that use spell slots of 10 up.
(After all that Increased Spell Capacity Feat begs to be used anyway)

[Fawsto]

Believe me, although nerfing the casters is a major step, it is not the final solution...

For instance, I've been setting some absurd prepare times for epic lvl spells, from an entire day trough an entire week just to prepare the freaking spell.

However there is still the problem with non epic spell levels. A friend of mine has this theory and I believe it is correct: The "I win" Button that is provided with high caster levels are the prize that the caster receives for a life of uselessness while in low levels.

My solution: Make the casters a little more useful in low levels, so we can nerf them in the higher levels. My primary option consists in smaller periods of time to prepare low level spells (making possible for a caster to recharge his spells when he needs them) and bigger prepare times for high level spells (so teh caster will think twice before nuking an entire area just because he will receive his spells in 8 hours). For instance, all casters must prepare their spells, even Sorcerers (they must gather "mystical energy" or whatever you want them to gather).

Ok, But this is not all... Some classes don't go well in epic levels... The feat chains sometimes just, indeed, suck... This is the major problem here... While epic casters are making their own effects, the poor fighter gets access to "Epic Might" (I dunno if this is correct) that provides him a +1 EAB.

That is why the work in these aspects is Titanic.

[AtomicKitKat]

Drop Epic Spellcasting altogether. At best, letting casters get spell slots above 9th is reward enough. Permanent Emanation can be too powerful in the right hands(Gust of Wind=immune to Swarms).

Give something better than the crap that is Epic Prowess. I don't care if you can take it multiple times. At that level, you should be getting at least 3 points of AB per feat.

Epic BAB/Saves don't have to go completely, but you can adjust this somewhat. My personal rules: You can keep gaining extra attacks until your total BAB+Epic AB allow you to get 4 attacks(ie, when BAB+EAB reach 16, you get +16/+11/+6/+1, and then whatever attacks based on other stuff like Haste). For Saves, I would not grant Saves higher than a Monk of equivalent level.

[bosssmiley]

See DiceFreaks
See the ENWorld Epic forums
See Upper_Krust's Immortal's Handbook (metamartial manoeuvres)
See K's WotC boards "Book of War" (notably the Monte Cook-inspired level-scaling fighter feats (weapon focus feat tree as 1 scaling feat? Nice! Weapon finesse tree ditto? That's more like it!)).

Part of the problem comes from the disjointed "+2 caster levels vs +1 feat" measures of caster vs. fighter power. I mean, which of those two would you rather have? :smalleek:

Fix the caster levels vs. feats, and the associated "magic items a warriorly necessity" problems in non-epic D&D (probably by giving the core martial characters level-based abilities with scaling DCs - much like ToB); then we'll make a start at fixing epic...