Where does it say Flurry of Blows is a Full Attack Action?

[Albions_Angel]

As the title. I know allowing FoB to trigger off a single attack action is one of the simplest and most common monk fixes, but I cant find anywhere in the SRD text for flurry of blows that actually SAYS its restricted to full attacks. Which is driving me up the wall.

If someone wouldnt mind directing me, that would be great.

[nyjastul69]

It's in the Full Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) section.


Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Edit: Added quote in case of blocked link.

[Albions_Angel]

Well Ill be damned.

I wonder, as its in a different section, did the writers just... forget? I mean it really makes no sense as a monk.

[darkdragoon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#flurryofBlows

"A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows."

[Zanos]

I opened my PHB to check if that was just the SRD compiling stuff, but it's the same. PHB pg. 40, clear as day.

[Albions_Angel]

Weird. Must have had a blind moment. Even after its been pointed out, for some reason I find it hard to read. Ive seen the line now, I know where it is, but I still miss it while skim reading.

As a general thing, Ive now houseruled that monks have full BAB, Flurry can be used as part of a standard and a monk with spiked gauntlets uses her unarmed damage but gains any modifiers from the gauntlets. I feel that brings her inline with some other classes in the level of game I am running. Sound good to people?

[Zanos]

I assume they're proficient with unarmed strikes? :smalltongue:

Can't tell you what's right for your table. I've been to games where monks are considered OP because they get spell resistance as a class feature. I doubt full BAB and standard action flurry will break anything.

[Tamorlin]

Sounds good.

[Fouredged Sword]

The option you are looking for is the Snap Kick feat from Tome of Battle. It acts like FoB, but is specifically triggered by a lot more situations.

[CharonsHelper]

...and a monk with spiked gauntlets uses her unarmed damage but gains any modifiers from the gauntlets.

In 3.5 that part isn't even a houserule. There was a FAQ which confirmed that it worked that way. (For regular gauntlets rather than spiked ones technically - which is better since it's still bludgeoning.)

The easiest fix for monks though is to use Pathfinder's Unchained Monk. It's a very viable class.

[Âmesang]

This is what I could find from the FAQ:

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifCan a monk get her unarmed strike enhanced as a magic weapon?
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifNo. Even a magic gauntlet or spiked gauntlet isn't the ideal answer, since these aren't listed as special monk weapons (and therefore aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes).
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifThe amulet of mighty fists (DMG 246) grants the wearer an enhancement bonus on unarmed and natural weapon attacks, which would include the monk's unarmed strike.

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifCan a monk use a +5 gauntlet in an unarmed attack, gaining all of her class benefits as well as the +5 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls from the gauntlet?
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifGauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.
Honestly I've no qualms about making the gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, or ward cestusA&EG into special monk weapons that they're proficient with; I mean, they never seemed to slow this guy down…

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/temp/kazuya%20mishima.png

[Tohsaka Rin]

My group agreed that it was reasonable to enchant gloves as if they were weapons that did no damage on their own. It worked quite well, though under-used as people stopped using the monk class in favor of other things.

[Eldariel]

Can't tell you what's right for your table. I've been to games where monks are considered OP because they get spell resistance as a class feature. I doubt full BAB and standard action flurry will break anything.

I've played in such a table as a noob. I've seen others since. Most of the ones I've seen have never actually featured a high level Monk outshining the rest of the party though. It's just been a kneejerk at "look at all these class features and oh my god, something no other class gets!*" That said, I've played in a game where a Monk was played in practice and the Monk-player swiftly realized that they are at a massive disadvantage vs. martial enemies limiting them to "find a squishy, hit 'em and hope they roll over dead"-role (which newer DMs appear to cater poorly to as such games tend to be weighted towards the obvious martial threats). I've yet to hear such problems from anyone who has taken the time to study and understand the system though.

* Yes, any caster can get much higher Spell Resistance but less experienced players tend to just read through class descriptions and somehow be unaware of just exactly what the Spells-section in the book contains.

[Eladrinblade]

Yeah, a monk with flurry-able gauntlets and full-attack-flurry standard action attacks is basically fixed.

Full-bab might even be a bit much; they get extra damage via extra attacks and huge base damage, whereas the rogue (with 3/4 bab) gets extra damage only when enemies are vulnerable and full bab types get most of their extra damage from taking penalties to their attack via power attack. That said, it's not like you're gonna break the game.

[Troacctid]

Huge base damage? Say what? A 15th level monk attacking unarmed is dealing the same base damage as a 1st level NPC warrior with a greatsword.

[Eladrinblade]

Huge base damage? Say what? A 15th level monk attacking unarmed is dealing the same base damage as a 1st level NPC warrior with a greatsword.

They can get it higher pretty easily.

[Big Fau]

Huge base damage? Say what? A 15th level monk attacking unarmed is dealing the same base damage as a 1st level NPC warrior with a greatsword.


They can get it higher pretty easily.

It does require a good deal of optimization to do this though. For your average (low-op) player the Monk is barely functional over an equal-level Fighter.

[Âmesang]

Some numbers because math is fun.

20th-level Medium monk, Str 30, with Improved Natural Attack:

4d8+10 = 28 damage

20th-level Medium fighter, Str 30, with a greatsword and Power Attack for 5:

2d6+15+10 = 32

Both the monk and fighter would have the same "effective base attack bonus," +15, due to the fighter willingly taking a hit to his; likewise, this doesn't take into account weapon enhancements and abilities like collision, nor (Greater) Weapon Specialization (and this is based on very low optimization). Of course if we replaced the greatsword with a warhammer or a maul, both the monk and fighter could receive the benefit of (greater) might wallop.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, but that is thinking things to their logical conclusion, not the knee jerk response one had in (let's say) 2000 when you first opened the 3.0 PHB and saw the monk class.

Eldariel says he's seen some OMG LOOKIT MONK! stuff more recently, but mostly I just hear people mention the guy who is new to 3e be impressed by it at first glance and then be disappointed (or someone new to 3e say, "oh cool, a martial artist, I want to play that" regardless of power level and eventually get tired of feeling useless).

[Eldariel]

Eldariel says he's seen some OMG LOOKIT MONK! stuff more recently, but mostly I just hear people mention the guy who is new to 3e be impressed by it at first glance and then be disappointed (or someone new to 3e say, "oh cool, a martial artist, I want to play that" regardless of power level and eventually get tired of feeling useless).

Oh no, not recently by most human reckonings but I've seen it in person :smalltongue: This was in...2004 or something. First in a higher level game. Level 13 or so. Then another one later in a level 1 campaign. In both cases, the Monk-player and the table realised that the Monk is outmatched vs. perfectly ordinary things in melee. Purple Worm in the first case and Human Zombie in the second.

[Âmesang]

I know. I just wanted to punch numbers. :smalltongue:

I honestly don't remember what it felt like to look through the Player's Handbook for the first time (having started with 3rd Edition), aside from wanting to recreate the paladin from HeXen II 'cause I loved his artwork.

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/paladin.pngAnd Tira from SoulCalibur. And Ash from Evil Dead. How I ever came up with original characters I'll never remember…

[Sliver]

I know it has been resolved, but I can't help but wonder...


I cant find anywhere in the SRD text for flurry of blows that actually SAYS its restricted to full attacks.

Wouldn't CTRL+F and "full attack" be a simpler way to find what you are looking for, rather than asking the forum and waiting for someone to basically do the same?

[Eldariel]

Monks are pretty close to NPC Warriors in terms of combat prowess. Flurry does help them out a ton to close the gap. For instance, let us assume:

34 Str (18+5+5+6), Boots of Speed, Weapon Focus, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Critical, +5 Weapons (courtesy of Greater Magic Weapon). Warrior uses a Falchion. For the sake of simplicity, let's not assume any weapon enhancements - these can be Masterwork weapons. Monk is Flurrying. They attack the big T:

20 BAB + 12 Str + 5 Weapon + 1 WF + 1 Speed = +39/+39/+34/+29/+24
15 BAB + 12 Str + 5 Weapon + 1 WF + 1 Speed = +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24

2d4+23 (15-20/x2)
4d8+17 (19-20/x2)


Attacking the Tarrasque with its DR of 15/Epic (Balor and Pit Fiend are similar if their DR is not penetrated, something very difficult for Core Monk 'cause they require metallic and aligned weapons).

Warrior Power Attacks for -6. His normal hits average 5+12+23 - 15 = 25 damage. Crits are 65.
Monk doesn't benefit of Power Attack for more than +1. His normal hits deal 18+1+17 - 15 = 21 damage. Crits are 57.

Both are attacking at +33 to hit on primary. Thus, 95% chance of hitting with 30% chance of critical threat for Warrior, 10% for Monk. 95% of the crits are confirmed, thus 28.5% crits for Warrior and 9.5% for Monk.


Warrior Primaries: 0 * .05 + 25 * .665 + 65 * .285 = 35.15
Monk Primaries: 0 * .05 + 21 * .855 + 57 * 0.095 = 23.37

Warrior #1 Iterative: 0 * 0.3 + 25 * 0.4663 + 65 * .2337 = 26.848
Monk #1 Iterative: 0 * 0.3 + 21 * 0.63 + 57 * .07 = 17.22

Warrior #2 Iterative: 0 * 0.55 + 25 * 0.315 + 65 * 0.135 = 16.65
Monk #2 Iterative: 0 * 0.55 + 21 * 0.405 + 57 * .045 = 11.07

Warrior #3 Iterative: 0 * 0.8 + 25 * 0.16 + 65 * 0.04 = 6.6

Total
Warrior: 35.15 * 2 + 26.848 + 16.65 + 6.6 = 120.398
Monk: 23.37 * 4 + 17.22 + 11.07 = 121.77


Thus, they're pretty similar in terms of performance. If the enemy is crit immune or lacks damage reduction, the Monk performs comparatively much better. However, the Warrior has a much easier time penetrating e.g. Pit Fiend or Balor DR, or getting extra damage from weapon enhancements. Overall, they're pretty close in terms of performance if INA is taken. Raging Barbarian or even just Fighter with Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization would pull ahead of the Monk quite significantly in all cases but the ones where the Monk is at their best though (that is, full attack vs. enemy without debilitating DR) and they'd probably still win there as well.

E.g. attacking an AC 43 Wyrm Black Dragon with Mage Armor active, a Fighter with the Warrior stats + Weapon Focus feat chain using a Greatsword would deal 122.14 average damage while the Monk would deal 109.72. If it were crit immune, Fighter would deal 102.00 and Monk would deal 99.75 so basically the same. However, all the considerations between DR, higher AC, single attacks, weapon enhancements, etc. favor the Fighter. So even in the optimal case scenario, the Monk does less damage than the other PC classes (but does beat the NPC class barely). Thus, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving the Monk full BAB either - they aren't gonna break anything. We aren't even getting into tactical advantages like reach weapons, mounted charges, etc. the Fighter-types with proper proficiencies enjoy. Sure, Monk has more skills, good saves, more speed (though not as much as you'd think since Monk speed is Enhancement) and an assortment of random abilities but overall, it's all good. Barbarians can match them in all those categories except for Reflex-saves while being heavily superior in combat even with full BAB Monks.

[Cheech]

People who allow flurry of blows as a standard action, which seems to be most or all of you - do you also allow flurry of blows on a charge?

[Mato]

Some numbers because math is fun.
20th-level Medium monk, Str 30, with Improved Natural Attack:

4d8+10 = 28 damage

20th-level Medium fighter, Str 30, with a greatsword and Power Attack for 5:

2d6+15+10 = 32
You skipped a lot there.

The 20th level medium fighter, with 30 str, power attacking for 5. Has +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+25).
Against the average AC (36 according to optimization by numbers) that's a 45%/20%/5%/5% hit rate.
So the fighter's per round damage is 75% of his per-hit damage or 24.

The 20th level medium monk, with 30 str, has +25/+25/+25/+20/+15 melee (4d8+10).
Against AC that's 45%/45%/45%/20%/5% for hit rate.
So the monk's per round damage is 160% of his per hit damage or 44.8.

Same examples, but by checking armor class the monk now deals twice the amount of damage as the fighter because he has more attacks than the fighter who had to reduce his chances of successfully hitting in order to deal more.

For instance, let us assume: 34 Str (18+5+5+6), Boots of Speed, Weapon Focus, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Critical, +5 Weapons (courtesy of Greater Magic Weapon). Warrior uses a Falchion. For the sake of simplicity, let's not assume any weapon enhancements - these can be Masterwork weapons. Monk is Flurrying. They attack the big T:Let's instead assume the monk chooses to specialize on his fist instead of a sword and wants to be a monk instead of a warrior. He sells the boots and the +5 weapon to recover the lost 62,000gp and instead of investing three feats he invests two skill points in use magic device. Now he buys a cl 20 wand of greater mighty wallop and trades away evasion for invisibility.

As an immediate action the monk turns invisible until his next turn, this gives the monk an extra +2 bonus to attack rolls and he attacks against the Terrasqua's flat-footed AC (32) rather than it's full AC (35). The Monk has +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 melee (12d8+12), or 85%/85%/85%/60%/35% for 350%, he deals 51 per hit after damage reduction or 178.5 per round.

Comparatively, that is a +48% increase in damage even through three less feats and 14,000 less gold was used in my example and I've only used the first of the most well known and commonly used methods to increase a monk's unarmed damage. If we readd just two feats back, improved natural weapon and snap kick, the monk goes from dealing 51 per hit after DR to 69 and 350% for five attacks to 375% for six attacks producing 258.75 per round which is more than his weight if the party wishes to kill the big T within one round.

[Starbuck_II]

People who allow flurry of blows as a standard action, which seems to be most or all of you - do you also allow flurry of blows on a charge?

No, because I don't grant Pounce for free. If they spend 1 ki, then yes.

[Psyren]

Unchained Monk gets Flying Kick for an easy charge-flurry. (Also Pummeling Charge, Dimensional Assault, Outslug Sprint...)

[KillianHawkeye]

No, because I don't grant Pounce for free. If they spend 1 ki, then yes.

Monks don't have ki points in D&D. Maybe in Pathfinder they do, I dunno about that, but "ki" is not a resource a 3.5 Monk has to spend.

[Endarire]

I recall initially looking through the 3.0 DMG (for NPCs) and noticing the Druid and Monk having the most class features. I went, "Hmm." Then I went back to loving Wizards.

[Eldariel]

Let's instead assume the monk chooses to specialize on his fist instead of a sword and wants to be a monk instead of a warrior. He sells the boots and the +5 weapon to recover the lost 62,000gp and instead of investing three feats he invests two skill points in use magic device. Now he buys a cl 20 wand of greater mighty wallop and trades away evasion for invisibility.

As an immediate action the monk turns invisible until his next turn, this gives the monk an extra +2 bonus to attack rolls and he attacks against the Terrasqua's flat-footed AC (32) rather than it's full AC (35). The Monk has +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 melee (12d8+12), or 85%/85%/85%/60%/35% for 350%, he deals 51 per hit after damage reduction or 178.5 per round.

Comparatively, that is a +48% increase in damage even through three less feats and 14,000 less gold was used in my example and I've only used the first of the most well known and commonly used methods to increase a monk's unarmed damage. If we readd just two feats back, improved natural weapon and snap kick, the monk goes from dealing 51 per hit after DR to 69 and 350% for five attacks to 375% for six attacks producing 258.75 per round which is more than his weight if the party wishes to kill the big T within one round.

That's great and all but I was making a Core side-by-side comparison on how much damage they get with the same tools. Thus this is utterly irrelevant.

[Starbuck_II]

Monks don't have ki points in D&D. Maybe in Pathfinder they do, I dunno about that, but "ki" is not a resource a 3.5 Monk has to spend.

Right, in 3.5, I'd spend a Stunning Fist useage.

[Mato]

That's great and all but I was making a Core side-by-side comparisonWhy?

There is no point in doing core examples, everyone has a smart phone that can access the srd and WotC's website for all the intentionally free stuff and there is no acceptable reason to limit your self to less than WotC has provided to you for free. And generally every single gaming group out there still playing 3.5 has access to several, if not every, single book.


Thus this is utterly irrelevant.What you mean is your superficial example had one and only one goal, to make it seem like the monk's damage was inferior to the warrior's by using inaccurate numbers, one sided bias in conditions, monk imposed limitations and warrior friendly favorable circumstances. It's an intentional inaccuracy and any post that remarks otherwise, to you, is irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.

Pai Mei is not impressed.
http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Kill-Bill.gif

[Eldariel]

Why?

There is no point in doing core examples, everyone has a smart phone that can access the srd and WotC's website for all the intentionally free stuff and there is no acceptable reason to limit your self to less than WotC has provided to you for free. And generally every single gaming group out there still playing 3.5 has access to several, if not every, single book.

What you mean is your superficial example had one and only one goal, to make it seem like the monk's damage was inferior to the warrior's by using inaccurate numbers, one sided bias in conditions, monk imposed limitations and warrior friendly favorable circumstances. It's an intentional inaccuracy and any post that remarks otherwise, to you, is irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.

Pai Mei is not impressed.
http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Kill-Bill.gif

Because it offers a clear point of comparison at the base values with the sources that are often used in the tables where level 20 Monks exist. Once we begin adding pouncing charge feats and buffs off UMD, everyone and their cohorts can one-round Big T if built for damage - it frankly doesn't matter.

And many groups still play Core-only so it's actually more relevant than you'd think. Frankly, anyone using EoE and RotD probably has the system mastery to not play Monk 20 too so that's quite moot.

Also, Pai Mei is an Unarmed Swordsage.

[KillianHawkeye]

Right, in 3.5, I'd spend a Stunning Fist useage.

Okay, but what if you didn't take Stunning Fist?

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, but what if you didn't take Stunning Fist?

Sucks to be that Monk.