Detecting possession by magic jar?

[Evolved Shrimp]

Is there a way to detect that a particular person is being possessed via magic jar?

In the concrete case, an evil lich is possessing the body – would Detect Evil or Detect Undead show anything?

Thanks for any hints.

[Necroticplague]

Is there a way to detect that a particular person is being possessed via magic jar?

In the concrete case, an evil lich is possessing the body – would Detect Evil or Detect Undead show anything?

Thanks for any hints.

Yes. All undead show up to Detect Evil, even good ones. Similarly, all undead show up to Detect Undead. Magic Jar doesn't say that your type or your alignment changes when you possess someone else's body, so it doesn't.

[Crake]

Yes. All undead show up to Detect Evil, even good ones. Similarly, all undead show up to Detect Undead. Magic Jar doesn't say that your type or your alignment changes when you possess someone else's body, so it doesn't.

Actually, it says what you KEEP, not what you lose, because you inherit the properties of the body, with the exceptions listed.

[Evolved Shrimp]

You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.

The SRD says nothing about type, so that’s a bit unclear, but I would tend to assume that the body’s (and not the soul’s) type is detected, which would make Detect Undead useless.

Detect Evil should work, but seems not to indicate that the evil comes from a possessing entity. (The original alignment of the possessed person is not known in the situation I’m looking at, so finding out that she is evil wouldn’t indicate that something’s amiss.)

The Book of Vile Darkness has two useful spells to deal with possessing entities, but there seems nothing there to help detect them…

[Leewei]

The SRD says nothing about type, so that’s a bit unclear, but I would tend to assume that the body’s (and not the soul’s) type is detected, which would make Detect Undead useless.

Detect Evil should work, but seems not to indicate that the evil comes from a possessing entity. (The original alignment of the possessed person is not known in the situation I’m looking at, so finding out that she is evil wouldn’t indicate that something’s amiss.)

The Book of Vile Darkness has two useful spells to deal with possessing entities, but there seems nothing there to help detect them…

Mostly this.

Detect Thoughts seems like the obvious way to determine if someone was possessed. It is resisted by Will, but does not allow Spell Resistance, so the Lich's immunity to mind-affecting magic wouldn't help. A character who shouldn't be able to make a decent Will save could well raise suspicions if they prove hard to affect.

Sense Motive skill also seems like a great option. While this isn't itself a magical thing, it can be augmented by spells such as Heroism. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339571-DC-100-Sense-Motive) is a thread on this very site about how to do this.

[Segev]

I'd suggest examining the possibility that protection against evil and its bigger magic circle against evil brother might extend their protection against possession even after the fact. Though magic jar's clause about shoving the original soul into the gem makes it fuzzier what happens if the possession is forcibly but temporarily suppressed.

Greater dispel magic could be used to try to blanket-quash the spell effect on a group.

And yes, detect evil would find an evil lich in the body of somebody, and would register the lich at his own aura level (so even if his victim is already mildly evil, the lich probably detects more strongly so).

Heck, detect magic would sense the powerful necromancy aura of the spell on the victim.

[Jowgen]

I distinctly recall reading that undead possessing a body can be removed via a successfull turn undead. If an undead targeting ability like that can work on just the disembodied soul of an undead, I think Detect Undead and similar effects should work just as well.

[Segev]

I distinctly recall reading that undead possessing a body can be removed via a successfull turn undead. If an undead targeting ability like that can work on just the disembodied soul of an undead, I think Detect Undead and similar effects should work just as well.

If you're arguing fluff/in-universe logic (that may not match the model of the mechanics), you have a valid case.

I will point out that from a game-mechanical, RAW standpoint, it is relevant whether this refers to possession via special undead abilities, or any form of possession at all. Because it's interesting that it might work on a lich using magic jar on the princess that the hero "rescued" from the lich's evil clutches, but wouldn't work on the dragon possessing that same princess via magic jar. Not "unbelievable." Just interesting.

[Willie the Duck]

Is there a way to detect that a particular person is being possessed via magic jar?

Ask them the name of their childhood pet? Ask them to perform an obscure song you've heard them sing before? Even better, ask them to perform a skill that they used to have. Even if they had read the host's mind ahead of time, it wouldn't actually transfer the skill.

[Zanos]

Heck, detect magic would sense the powerful necromancy aura of the spell on the victim.
More importantly, since you can now see the effect, you get a DC 25(20+Level) spellcraft check to identify the spell.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Ask them the name of their childhood pet?

The possessed person is not a party member or long-time acquaintance, so that wouldn’t, unfortunately, help in this case.

However, a combination of methods suggested by various playgrounders would seem to do the trick:

Sense Motive to detect something is wrong. (The contact is in a social setting where using Detect Magic willy-nilly wouldn’t fly.)
Detect Magic (discreetly…) to identify the issue.
Sense Motive to determine the details.


Finding out which entity is possessing the person (which is more interesting in this case then driving the possessor away) will probably require a lot of detective work.

Thanks to everybody for helping with this problem!

[Kelb_Panthera]

The possessed person is not a party member or long-time acquaintance, so that wouldn’t, unfortunately, help in this case.

Sure it would. If they lie, and of couse they do, you're entitled to a reactive sense motive check to determine whether you believe them or not. DM might roll it in secret to prevent you from metagaming the answer based on the die roll but that's fine.

[Âmesang]

I'd suggest examining the possibility that protection against evil and its bigger magic circle against evil brother might extend their protection against possession even after the fact. Though magic jar's clause about shoving the original soul into the gem makes it fuzzier what happens if the possession is forcibly but temporarily suppressed.
Personally I'm imagining a half-and-half scenario where the target's soul is still inside of the magic jar and the possessor's soul is still inside of the target's body… however the possessor's soul is rendered effectively "inert," preventing the possessor from taking any action and thus leaving the target body comatose for the duration of protection/magic circle against evil.

[Jack_Simth]

Deathwatch, perhaps? Tells you how alive something is, whether it was never alive in the first place, or undead - and per Magic Jar, it's the posessor's life force that ends up in the host... in the case of a lich, that'll be negative energy. Or maybe even cast Magic Jar yourself - that one explicitly says it tells you whether or not the body is powered by negative energy.

[Segev]

Given it costs a cantrip and can also reveal the specific spell, detect magic is probably the most efficient choice. Arcane sight, if you are willing to go for a higher-level spell and want faster read-times.

[Thurbane]

The Witch Slayer PrC (ToM) gets the ability Locate Possession at 3rd level.

[Âmesang]

So can the witch slayer always find his keys? :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

Have we finally found a use for spirit sense (http:// http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124)?

[Jack_Simth]

Have we finally found a use for spirit sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124)?Not by RAW, no. Spirit Sense only works if the target is dead. Very few uses for it - ask someone if they want to be raised, get a description of the bloke that just murdered the vic, that sort of thing. Highly situational.

[daremetoidareyo]

Not by RAW, no. Spirit Sense only works if the target is dead. Very few uses for it - ask someone if they want to be raised, get a description of the bloke that just murdered the vic, that sort of thing. Highly situational.

What happens if you reduce someone who has been magic jarred to -10 hp?

You see the posessing spirit from that body, right?

Pair that with the oneiromancy feat and you can just kill the suspects dream self. Which you'll get to see whether they or an intruding jarmeister are there.

Either that or resurrection spells out the wazoo.

What happens if you petrify a magic jarred person?

[Jack_Simth]

What happens if you reduce someone who has been magic jarred to -10 hp?

You see the posessing spirit from that body, right?
If the jar is in range, the caster's spirit goes back to the jar, and it's the target who dies. The target might say they were possessed... but then, the dead guy might say that anyway with the intent of scoring a resurrection.

If the jar is not in range, then yeah, you get to see the caster's spirit (and note that the target passes on when the spell expires). That might work.


Pair that with the oneiromancy feat and you can just kill the suspects dream self. Which you'll get to see whether they or an intruding jarmeister are there.
When you kill someone's dream self, it's not a real death.... I'd have to check the feat: it might work by RAW, but... umm... wha? The flavor is all off.

Either that or resurrection spells out the wazoo.
That's... one way to dispossess someone. Cheaper and faster to just spam Impotent Possessor (Book of Vile Darkness page 98), though.

What happens if you petrify a magic jarred person?The body is petrified. The caster, unable to act, returns to the real body (if in range) when the spell expires (or dies if the real body is not in range at that time).

[daremetoidareyo]

If the jar is in range, the caster's spirit goes back to the jar, and it's the target who dies. The target might say they were possessed... but then, the dead guy might say that anyway with the intent of scoring a resurrection.

Which means that you get to see it flee while a bedraggled and confused Original spirit returns to flip out like a friend who loaned you a car that you subsequently totalled.

If the jar is not in range, then yeah, you get to see the caster's spirit (and note that the target passes on when the spell expires). That might work.


When you kill someone's dream self, it's not a real death.... I'd have to check the feat: it might work by RAW, but... umm... wha? The flavor is all off.

Is it, though? A scholar that can see the dead is a shoe-in candidate for studying the nature of dreams. Further, when in an entities dreamscape, if you kill them, they no longer have control over their farce. And seeing as who rules in dreams follow inception like logic anyway, the stabilizing presence of other entities in the dreamscape would stabilize a type of mutually agreed upon groundrules. Groundrules to which you have the "seeing dead people" exemption. The possessing spirit would be what comes out of the body to lurk about before passing on. That is just a good portentous dream trope. Killing each of the dreamselves to discover who among your group is possessed by the evil spellcaster is awesome storytelling.

[JeminiZero]

You know, I wonder whether Circle Dance [Spell Compendium 46] would work here. Would it detect the creature's body or spirit? Is "magic jarred" one of the conditions that it can tell you?

[weckar]

This wouldn't be a problem if everyone just got their doctor-ordered possession immunities sorted out :smallconfused: