Mystic Dervish Magus Archetype Questions

[OzzyKP]

I'm trying out the Mystic Dervish archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/ascension-games-llc---magus-archetypes/mystic-dervish), it is 3rd party, and I'm confused about it. I mean, in general I'm confused about the Magus already, but this archetype confuses me further.

Two-Weapon Casting says I can cast a spell while wielding two weapons, Twinned Spellstrike says I can use spellstrike while wielding two weapons.

So does that mean I get a mainhand & offhand attack for my normal attack, and another mainhand & offhand attack for spellstrike?

[Kurald Galain]

Here, let me unconfuse you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus&).

Regarding the dervish, the main benefit of the archetype is attacking twice per round via Two-Weapon Fighting. The thing is that a regular Magus can already attack twice per round, via Spell Combat plus an attack cantrip. The advantage to the latter is that both strikes are with the same weapon, so you have to buy (and enchant, with your arcane pool) only one of them. So while this might seem like a bonus for this archetype, it's actually not.

Twinned Spellstrike is another thing that sounds like an improvement but is actually not, and of course Diminished Spellcasting doesn't help any. Overall, this means that at levels 1 through 7, this archetype is really not so hot. However, at levels 8 and up it becomes interesting: you get to use TWF / ITWF / GTWF with spell combat, for a huge number of attacks per round. At level 15, your attack routine would be +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3. Combine with e.g. Frostbite and you have a good combo on your hands.

Overall rating: green (three out of four), but at levels 8 and up only. At lower levels, I'd call it a trap. HTH!

[Psyren]

So does that mean I get a mainhand & offhand attack for my normal attack, and another mainhand & offhand attack for spellstrike?

Yes and maybe. Two-Weapon Casting and Twinned Spell Combat are straightforward, but Twinned Spellstrike is poorly written - it's unclear whether "can use it while wielding two weapons" means you can simply use it with two weapons but it functions the same way as normal spellstrike (i.e. one free melee touch attack ---> one free weapon swing), or whether it means you get two free weapon swings (1 with each hand) instead.

Regardless, you can't use these together until you get the later ability Twinned Spell Combat at 8th level. Before that, the only way you can cast and full-attack (and therefore TWF) in the same round is by using a swift-action spell.

[OzzyKP]

So Two-Weapon Casting just lets me cast a spell while both my hands are full, but doesn't let me do anything with those weapons?

But I could still do a spellstrike which would get me an attack with both hands, and the spell. I just can't do this AND my normal attack. But I can at 8th level?

[Kurald Galain]

But I could still do a spellstrike which would get me an attack with both hands, and the spell.
No. Casting a touch spell gives you one attack. One. The only thing spellstrike does is allow you to make this one attack with a weapon instead of your hand. Twin spellstrike even spells out that you don't deliver it twice.

The archetype is worse than you think.

[Psyren]

No. Casting a touch spell gives you one attack. One. The only thing spellstrike does is allow you to make this one attack with a weapon instead of your hand. Twin spellstrike even spells out that you don't deliver it twice.

The archetype is worse than you think.

While it's correct that you can only deliver the strike once, the question then becomes, how many chances do you get to deliver it? The specific wording they used - "The spell is delivered through whichever of his two weapons strikes first" - suggests that you get two swings, even if only one of them gets to actually discharge the spellstrike.

[Kurald Galain]

While it's correct that you can only deliver the strike once, the question then becomes, how many chances do you get to deliver it?

One, obviously. Touch spell = one attack, and nothing in either spellstrike or twin spellstrike in any way alters that. You're taking a sentence out of context; if you don't do that, the answer is clearly "one".

[Aldrakan]

I believe the "advantage" of twinned spellstrike pre-8th level is that the magus doesn't have to specify which weapon is holding the charge. If they miss on their attack when they cast spellstrike, hold the charge, and make a full attack the next turn, they don't need to specify the spell is in the sword rather than the dagger - the spell is delivered through whichever of the two weapons strikes first.

[Psyren]

One, obviously. Touch spell = one attack, and nothing in either spellstrike or twin spellstrike in any way alters that. You're taking a sentence out of context; if you don't do that, the answer is clearly "one".

It's one by RAW, I agree, but that wording suggests they intended it to work differently.

If I'm baking a pie, and someone asks me "which of your sons is that for?" and I reply "whichever gets home first" - the assumption is that both are coming home.

[GreyBlack]

One, obviously. Touch spell = one attack, and nothing in either spellstrike or twin spellstrike in any way alters that. You're taking a sentence out of context; if you don't do that, the answer is clearly "one".

Is this technically true? IIRC, missing with a touch spell holds the charge until you can deliver and discharge it. Spellstrike obviously modifies this by not allowing you to hold the charge, but by RAW, this version of Spellstrike would give two chances at discharging the spell instead of the one you normally get.

[Kurald Galain]

Spellstrike obviously modifies this by not allowing you to hold the charge

Spellstrike still allows you to hold the charge. Normally a Magus would use spellstrike with spell combat, meaning that if the (one!) extra attack from casting a touch spell misses, he gets to deliver the spell with his other attacks. The dervish is no different.

[OzzyKP]

Except you're saying there is no spell combat. So it sounds like you're saying a normal magus with one weapon can attack two times and cast a spell but a magus with an archetype built around two-weapon fighting can only attack once and cast a spell. Really?

[Kurald Galain]

Except you're saying there is no spell combat.

You are confused.


Normally a Magus would use spellstrike with spell combat

[Aldrakan]

Is this technically true? IIRC, missing with a touch spell holds the charge until you can deliver and discharge it. Spellstrike obviously modifies this by not allowing you to hold the charge, but by RAW, this version of Spellstrike would give two chances at discharging the spell instead of the one you normally get.

You can hold the charge on a spellstrike- it even specifies that if you lose your weapon you can pick up a weapon without discharging the spell the way it would if you touched something else with that hand.
What twinned spellstrike does it make the charge deliverable through either weapon (the charge is carried in both hands at once, essentially), but it doesn't do anything to let you actually attack with those weapons any better.
Without spell combat it generally only does anything if you miss on the first attack, and make a full attack next turn.
And yeah it's bad and mechanically works against the point of the archetype until 8th level. The fearmonger anti paladin archetype only does two things, one of which makes the other unusable. They're not always well written.