M&M vs. 3.5

[fireinthedust]

So I was running a game with some standard 3.5 players. They're great, but when games get up to 15th level I just can't handle the numbers; the games arn't playable because the PCs (and villains) are just so powerful: greatcleave and a spiked chain leveled an army of minotaurs and fire giants, and exploded my villains in one round.

So I'm looking at Mutants and Masterminds, which is d20, and I've got some experience with the system. I'm thinking to myself wow, this would work great for fantasy-style games!

I mean, look at the PCs. they're essentially super heroes, but the way the game is set up balance is a major issue; also concepts are really hard to have as player characters (gestalt, skill lists, monstrous races, items and equipment), and to a certain extent the game is streamlined to particular builds with class combinations.

M&M characters, on the other hand, you direct exactly what you can do with them. Yes, the game is sold for Superheroes, but you can refurbish it for fantasy, sci-fi, horror, low-tech, high power, whatever. There's still scale, balance, all that stuff.

Any thoughts on this?

[Piccamo]

Its a good idea. People do that already. You may also want to look into Green Ronin's True20. They're the same people who made M&M and this is sort of their default mechanics. Its all generic classes and ever level grants a feat.

[Jerthanis]

Any thoughts on this?

Uh... I really like M&M, but I wouldn't have said that balance was an overridingly positive trait it had.

For one, there's really nothing stopping you from making overly specialized characters, who could Blast for huge damage with a huge attack modifier, and just explode people and objects with damage.

For another, some powers, like Cosmic Energy Control or Magic allow you to buy almost any power for a steep discount with (so far as I can tell) no disadvantage.

The only aspect that seems like would really help you a lot is that advancement is amazingly slow, with 1 power point a session as a reward, and 15 power points in a level, that's even slower leveling than 2nd edition D&D (though incremental, allowing a steady pace towards the next "level"). This would avoid you getting to your cited problem where your players evolve to becoming unstoppable powerhouses, though I think M&M assumes the players START as practically unstoppable powerhouses, and imagines that they may become truly unstoppable powerhouses, so your mileage may vary.

Admittedly though, M&M is better suited to running various other genres besides superheroes than D&D is suited to things other than high fantasy, but that's not exactly saying a lot. It is however, also better than BESM d20, so if you need a d20 based game to fill any genre, you might not be that bad using M&M for it.

[fireinthedust]

true 20: heard of it, never read it tho.


M&M balance: thing is, with the 2nd edition I've found it balances out really well.

here's another aspect: look at the spells in the PHB, or other sources. You have spells that do damage, transform someone, snare them somehow, mind control, whatever. But you get a number of re-hash spells: this one entangles, this one entangles and does damage, this one does damage but more as it's higher level, etc.

M&M you could treat "magic" like iron man treats power armor: a set number of points you can re-distribute when you "prepare" your powers (DM approval), although as the powers are vague (blast of some sort, power source magic) you'd be picking "well do I want it to be lightning damage, fire damage, cold?" plus your at-level healing spells, movement types for your or others, etc.
but you only have 60 points to distribute, as the rest are permanently tied into your stats, skills, equipment, saves, BAB and other stuff you can't change.
On top of that one could do a sword-weilding Gandalf without becoming laughable.

Also a fire giant is easy to be as you just get the Growth (permanent) power, some enhanced toughness, fire immunity, etc. On the other hand, you wouldn't have as many points to throw around as the weapons master, wizard, lich, dragon hatchling, etc. in the party would. And having a fire giant, a minotaur, a lich and a dryad walking into a bar wouldn't be uber-powered. They'd be exactly as-powered as each other, just in different areas.

AND you can know exactly what the balance is in that you have a limit for what each can do, what everyone can afford with the points they've got.

Power buying works multiple way for the wizard, btw: sure, they can buy lots of powers, but non-wizards can do that for combat, feats, vehicles, armor, saves... they're not bound in the same way dnd is for uber-wizards.

That said, if everyone knows they're creating characters set in Faerun, and are limited to what would be in the Forgotten Realms (races, politics, items, etc.), you've got the setting and adventures right there.

[hewhosaysfish]

I've recently been exposed to M&M for the first time and was quite impressed by the versatility and customisability. An important knock-on effect of this customisability which shouldn't be overlooked is the mental shift in the charcter creation process: the GM's input is required when assigning effects and points values to Complications, when applying non-standard Extras to a powers or when deciding which powers should be allowed to share an Array. Little things help reinforce the authority of GM interpretation over the "it's in the book so I can do it" approach that plagues many D&D DMs.
So hopefully your player's shouldn't go mad with munchkinning when you give them the carte blanche of the points-buy system.
Just in case they do, watch out for anything involving the Transform power, Variable Power Structures and large Arrays:- Transform and Variable PS both explicitly state that GMs should monitor them carefully to make sure it's under their control; Jerthanis has already said a thing or two about Arrays;



For another, some powers, like Cosmic Energy Control or Magic allow you to buy almost any power for a steep discount with (so far as I can tell) no disadvantage.


The disadvantage of Arrays is, if you fill it with sustained/continuous abilities then you can only have one active at a time. If it has nothing but attack abilities (or similar instantaneous effects) then you wouldn't be using two at the same time anyway and so gain versatility for a nominal cost. And remember there has to be some sort of thematic link!

[fireinthedust]

exactly!

I'm in the Avatar's World/Zenith Watch game here on the boards (nigh on one year! woot!), and playing a character with transform and an Alternate Form array (chemical structures only, and specific alternate forms to match that for himself).

I find play is also more intense on a round-by-round basis: every action counts, as one punch can take you out at the start of combat (granted hero points can be spent to fix that, but still).
That said, an array of powers means that whatever you have (sustained or instant blast) you can only use one per round.

In a DnD context it would be "are you going to use your fire blast, lightning bolt, or teleportation?"

And, if the complication is power loss with, say, contact with cold iron you loose everything in the array.

As well, that ranged attacks don't get damage bonuses the way melee attacks do (for high strength on top of your weapon, say) it evens out wizards and fighters.

[Ditto]

M&M is HIGHLY breakable. Characters only remain sane with a strong, conscious attempt to moderate power levels. It also has very little structure. D&D is easier to fight back against monster CharOp builds because of the specialization the classes provide. It's hard to keep a handle on the M&M team when every character is Batman.

[Diggorian]

A friend of mine and I have been toying with expanding M&M to other genres as you have Dust. Ever since we checked out first edition, the appeal of a classless and nigh level-less D20 point system was evident. Instead of buying multiple splat books for more material, it allows you to make up your own new abilities from the combinations of those given.

He's pondering the fantasy genre conversion like you and has calculated the point cost for races: the price of a Dwarf's abilities, elven traits, etc. With tweaks, we now have perfectly balanced D&D races with no need for LA or a published Savage species progression, as you alluded to with fire giants.

Myself, I'm wanting to try D20 point based Alternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternity#Campaign_settings), specifically Star Drive. Sci fi is closer to my heart than fantasy, from a creative point of view, plus I wont have to deal magic. The device rules that tie an item's capabilities right into it's value will be used mostly to make high tech stuff from mass pistols to dreadnaught cruisiers ( oncew their Wealth is high enough :smallwink: )

Good luck with your plans for this.

[fireinthedust]

Diggorian: please, my friends call me fire :smallwink:

did your friend start to work with the point-packages for the races?
I was thinking about what Drow would be like; or SR. They'd have protection that's applicable only to magical effects (blast, charm, etc.), lowering the required saves to avoid the effects or negating the effect if reduced to 0. As non-hero/villain characters would all have PL's of generally lower levels, it's not like having massive numbers of magic-proof creatures running around (they're just more *resistant* to spells). Better than a straight Immunity to it (which would be way more game-breaking, y'know? like being immune to melee attacks or immune to magic items)


Ditto: yeah, I know what you mean. We've got a good DM, who's managed to reign in a lot of the stuff we do.
2nd edition has some checks, tho, including equipment and suchnot.

I don't know if it's more broken than 3.5, tho. It's more obvious, tho, and looking at what you get with it (attacks, defenses, weird effects, feats, etc.) it puts PrCs from 3.5 in perspective (like, is Turn Undead more or less powerful than Hide in Plain Sight? therefore, is said PrC actually balanced). That makes it easier for folks like me to "see" how it works, but in a way it makes it less easy to powergame (all the "moves" are telegraphed to everyone, so it's harder to pull stunts)

I think if I were to run it I'd have the PCs set in a DnD world like Faerun, or the understanding that... class guidelines and cultures are like ye standard DnD game setting. Thing is they'd have the limits of that setting already in place for races that are normal, what folks are used to, whatever.
Just as importantly, however, the Players would have that mental picture in their heads. 3.5 has... I don't want to say more depth, but Dungeons and Dragons has more history to it.
To use the Wizard of Oz, M&M the system is like showing the man behind the curtain, though, but the big floating head is still pretty cool to look at.
Using it to tell stories with the (I think) easier rules system would be cool.

[Diggorian]

M&M is HIGHLY breakable. Characters only remain sane with a strong, conscious attempt to moderate power levels. It also has very little structure. D&D is easier to fight back against monster CharOp builds because of the specialization the classes provide. It's hard to keep a handle on the M&M team when every character is Batman.

The cracks come from running with supers sometimes, but D&D characters are cheap to make in the system IME. If you start a camp at about Power level 2 or 3 they wont even be near stressing things. PCs that hyper specialize will be left with hyper-weakness cause there's no automatic level benefits like increased durability (HP) or base attack/saves. Making a mage Blaster Blasting McBlastwell can yield great damage but woe unto him if he gets attacked, hit, needs to make a save, or use *gasp* a skill!

The game is defaulted to model Batman, the actual Caped Crusader, at about PL 10. That can take a while to reach.

[Diggorian]

@ Fire: my amicable internet acquaintances refer to me as Digg, count yourself amongst them. :smallamused:

I'm not sure what E, my friend, has finished but I believe he's got the PHB races covered. We had a chance to try out the system recently, but already have three active D&D campaigns. The choice was to start a new Alternity game for diversity.

For SR: I'm not sure how he's handled it. I'm forming theories myself, a limited Nullify looks promising to model it.

[Pauwel]

M&M is HIGHLY breakable. Characters only remain sane with a strong, conscious attempt to moderate power levels. It also has very little structure. D&D is easier to fight back against monster CharOp builds because of the specialization the classes provide. It's hard to keep a handle on the M&M team when every character is Batman.

Characters remain sane as long as the players do.

Sure, I could always buy Duplicate (Heroic, Horde, Progression 9) and summon a thousand clones of myself, having them all "Combined attack" with my convenient Perception Blast 1 for +2001 damage, but is there really anything fun in that?
In my opinion it's actually discouraging power-gaming by making it so ridiculously easy. It's not a game for those who enjoy having no character traits besides "über", but for those who actually wish to play in a fantasy setting and have fun.

EDIT: By the way, for all those considering starting a fantasy campaign, I advise you to start the campaign at least at PL 5. Fighter's will probably want greatswords, large Str scores, armour and so on, and it's hard to fit all that in at PL 2 or 3 without making some serious changes to the system (it's possible, but without the changes it's not really viable).

[Green Bean]

I agree with Pauwel on this. Some powers are cheesy, but most of it isn't all that bad. Things like Blast, Strike, Teleport, or other bread and butter powers are exceedingly well balanced (I find). There's one or two powers that are intended for villain use only, and two or three powers that are broken if not used in moderation. But the thing is, the Core book warns DMs about these powers, and all they have to do double check player sheets with those powers.

And this is one of the good things I've found about M&M 2e; it tends to be really obvious when a character is broken. All the DM has to do is say that you can't summon 10000 duplicates with cheese blasts, or take Transform: People into Corpses. Yes, I know that the fact that you can house rule around something doesn't make it less broken, but in M&M, house ruling is built right into the system. Every other page is a sidebar saying, 'if the players are abusing x, then these are some ways to fix it.'

[calebcom]

M&M is awesome for how you can abuse it.

Super Jump + Density Control + Fire Immunity


I leap into orbit, then come crashing down onto the bad guy's base at over 1000x my normal density and thus weight.

Can you say meteor?

[Khantalas]

Of course, if you can leap into orbit, you'll have a lot of rounds before you land. In which time the target can just, you know, move.

Oh, and they're Leaping, Density and Immunity (friction damage), respectively.

[Nerd-o-rama]

"Fire the Giant Cannon!"

[fireinthedust]

What was the name of that guy from the Tick? the human bullet? "fire me, boy!"

Note that there would be the stacking limits to what you could accomplish. You may only be able to do your PL in damage (unless you spent a hero point). Regardless, you'd have to explain it in a fantasy setting why you have those particular abilities.

[Piccamo]

Explaining most of those abilities in a fantasy setting isn't all that difficult. Here are some ideas:

Flight: Winged, born of a Djinn, born of an Angel, etc.
Blast: Fireball, demonic energy, force of will, etc.
Super Strength: Child of a god, you are a god, etc.
Invulnerability: Dipped in a sacred river, ate a dragon's heart, etc.
Anything else: Magic, the gods, ancient spirits, etc.


I feel that M&M actually lends itself to fantasy better in regards to a custom world. You can attribute anything to anything you'd like. You also get around the pesky D&D assumptions, like every city has x number of magic users. This is also true of True20, though True20 seems to be overall less powerful.

[fireinthedust]

Super strength: you're a giant, half-giant, dragon's blood, a golem, or you have a device that grants you giant's strength (girdle of). That and your mother hooked up with a swan/glittering motes of light (shock!), but who cares, you look great!

Protection: You've got an artifact-level suit of armor crafted by the dwarves, it also grants super strength; also you can open a portal somewhere that's super heavy, but that's a plot device.

Alternate Form: you're a were-tiger, a shape-changing dragon, or Mystra lets you do that because Ed Greenwood says she does.

Liquid form (complication: permanent, disturbing appearance, hidden enemy) You got eaten by an ooze, but your latent psionic energy made your mind disperse into its body: you are now a gelatinous cube or other ooze. Cultists of jubilex are confident you're the herald of a new dark age, and are trying to capture you.

Regeneration: as a child you drank a potion of distilled troll's blood, which makes you grow really big and green.

Batman: A noble of Amn, your parents were killed in a back alley by a shadowy figure (night masks? cyric before the time of troubles?). You trained with some monks, used your family's wealth to buy lots of equipment, and learned craft: alchemy from an artificer. Now you're fighting against the rife corruption of your home town, alongside your overly-chipper halfling sidekick.

[Piccamo]

I almost forgot, make sure you use the Wealth variant with M&M. For a non-super hero game its superior to spending points on new equipment.

[fireinthedust]

what would you say the main differnece is between it and the wealth-rolling system for d20 modern is?

my adjudication: for equipment, if someone's got, say, 10 points spent on it they get 50 points of equipment. During downtime, as equipment isn't the same as a device (which is permanent), I'd let them redistribute equipment points: ie, every adventure they'd pick what equipment they're planning on using, but loose access to the stuff they gave up.

[Piccamo]

Its the same as the Wealth from d20 Modern.

[BlueWizard]

Running Epic level game are my specialty! Superheros are fun to bring into fantasy setting. I've even brought modern and other settings...

You must prepare a lot of bounds, and safeguards to balance the PCs, bringing in the gods if need be.

[Skyserpent]

As good as M&M is, it's a lot tougher to set up loot mechanics in that system as most characters have all their powers built in... but otherwise, I'd say go for it!

[Diggorian]

You can do loot by converting the total build points that the heroes get from an adventure into sweet devices they can keep. So it's "level" or get loot, which kinda levels you anyway. :smallamused:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Loot in M&M: if you want to give out cash, either a) implement the (optional) Wealth System or b) award "power points" that can only be spent on Equipment and Device Powers. Make these a part of the regular PP award for completing an adventure. Perhaps also exclude "regular" PP from being spent on Equipment except at character creation (I'd always let people create or improve their magic sword devices with Power Points, but that's just a style thing, like with D&D Kensai.)