Have I made a decent compromise or am I a moron?

[Albions_Angel]

So, after asking the Playground (I think twice), reading both books cover to cover, reading every thread that comes up on the subject and scouring the archives for similar threads, I STILL dont like Psionics. And I dont know why. Part of it I think is Fluff. Fluff for me is important. I dont like refluffing unless I am making something new based on something else. I think the other part is the level of optimization I am used to. I like to call it "High-Mid" optimization. a group where the members heavily optimize the melee characters, and the party in general, but the casters usually exist as buffers and "batmen-light". The idea of Nova seems scary to me as a DM.

But I am not here to talk about that. Having never been in a group with Psionics, I cant really judge and theres not a lot the playground can do to convince me of anything. And I am about to DM for a brand new group in a brand new place and I have no idea of their play level, so I am uncomfortable with letting them loose on a whole new magic system that has the potential to destroy my ability to DM correctly.

AND THEN...

I was world building and ended up creating a cut off part of the world where the gods and magic in general died. Based loosely on India, Tibet and the Buddhist Chinese culture, the more I constructed it, the more Psionics just sort of fell in to place. Which got me thinking.

For now, my party will be on the other side of the world. I was only world building because not all races are native to the play region and I thought it would be helpful for people to know here they come from. And for the first few months, I will be playing a story focused, DM driven game until I gauge their ability to wreck whatever I throw at them. Besides, I like my stories. And then I plan to open it out a little and let them roam around that area.

But that also presents the ability for them to travel elsewhere in the world. Including this cut off area. Which would bring them into contact with Psions (I will be using transparency rules) and Psionic Races, and present an opportunity to retire some characters and start as psionic ones. That way, I get to see psionics at a slow rate.

Am I a moron. I just cant see any downsides to this but Im worried for some reason.

[Flickerdart]

The likelihood of your players going to the psionic region relies on two factors: how good your plot is, and how interested they are in psionics. If your story is fascinating, and the area they are in is fleshed out properly, they might hear stories about a far-off region with psychic bald guys and crystals and just not care. The same thing happens if they don't care about psionics.

But if the prospect of getting psionic characters outweighs the attractiveness of the area they're in, they're going to high-tail it to that region. Except if it's on the other side of the world, that will be tricky. Imagine riding a horse from Paris to Lhasa. Now put dragons in between. Yeah.

If you yourself are interested in slowly learning more about psionics, bring the psionics to them! It may take forever to get to this remote region, but traders may have brought some knowledge (or some NPCs) from there, along some Silk Road equivalent, to a large city somewhere closer to home. The PCs can bump into this knowledge, which lets you set up an isolated psionic encounter (or even a psionic sub-plot) and then drop it completely upon resolution. If the PCs want more, they can make the journey, progressively encountering more psionics on the way. If not, meh.

Similarly, this small dose of psionics will also let you get a feel for it. If you decide you'd rather not pursue it, the PCs encounters something else as they head to psion land. Perhaps a deadly plague, or a Mongol invasion.

[Fouredged Sword]

The game is designed to do exactly this.


3.5 was built on a design that was intended to allow for a DM to just pick up a new book with a new system and basically just fold it into a long running game by discovering new areas.

There is a degree of uncertainty that comes with dipping your toes into a new system. Take heart, you are doing this correctly. If you decide you really don't like psionics after all the whole area can get hit by a meteor of retcondium and all psionic knowledge can be lost.

Just remember - a psion CANNOT SPEND MORE PP ON A POWER THAN THEIR ML. The nova is a lie outside high OP.

[Albions_Angel]

I might take the initiative and bring in travelers rather than wait for them. That's not a bad idea. But not for a while. As a concept, flavouring one region as the birthplace of psionics and only place with a deep psionics connection is ok?

[Fouredged Sword]

Perfectly fine. Maybe a crystal dragon got kinda randy and the whole area is now... descended from a psionic source.

Or maybe there is just some big crystal in a nearby mountain that messes with the area, your choice.

[Psyren]

Your approach is fine. This is in fact exactly what Golarion and Eberron did - they stuck all the psi characters over there where GMs could start out ignoring them completely, and then slowly introduce them as they (and their players) got more comfortable or willing to explore.

In Golarion, this was the initial purpose behind Vudra - as with your own world, it is heavily inspired by themes from Tibet and India, with lots of remote monasteries and esoteric spiritual practices that are largely foreign to the more Western-inspired countries in the Inner Sea. Back when Golarion was a 3.5 setting, this was where the bulk of psionics were relegated to, and once PF came out with its own version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/psychic-magic) they more or less switched it over to that.

In Eberron, psionics are largely found in the isolated continent of Sarlona. Tibet again finds expression as a psionic haven via the mountainous region of Adar, homeland of the Kalashtar. However, the bulk of the continent, Riedra, plays more like fantasy North Korea, where psionics is used primarily to tightly control, oppress, and re-educate the population.

[Flickerdart]

As a concept, flavouring one region as the birthplace of psionics and only place with a deep psionics connection is ok?
Yeah, perfectly fine. Psionics has its roots in either a learning tradition (INT and WIS based manifesters) or the usual maybe-bloodline-maybe-not malarkey that plagues all Charisma-based casters from all subsystems. Either thing makes sense as a regional phenomenon, especially since you have a great excuse to keep it from spreading (arcane and divine magic exist already).

The only issue I can see is the following sequence of events: the players go to Psionicland, get some psionic gear, character classes, and so forth, and then leave to pursue their fortunes elsewhere. And suddenly the psionics dry up! The psion can't find any power crystals. The ardent experiences a dearth of dorjes. The psychic warrior wants to replace his deep crystal weapon, but can't find another one made of that material. Those PCs that choose to go psionic may just learn to deal with it (and harbour deep-lying resentment) or actively lobby to have the group return to Psionicland, and spend all their time there.

It's up to you whether you want to avoid this, but there are a few ways to do it. Perhaps Psionicland is very isolated, and whatever plot happens there causes it to open up its knowledge and kick off psionic studies in the rest of the world. Perhaps psionics had already existed elsewhere, but has gone into decline long ago; the PCs can try and seek out isolated ruins and dungeons to find some level-appropriate gear and (if they want) begin their own psionic revival. And of course, you can have the PCs make some powerful enemies while in Psionicland; occasional psychic assassins sent after them will keep them supplied with psionic gear and give you occasional psionic encounters where dedicated anti-psionic abilities may come in handy.

[Psyren]

Above is one of the things that appeals to me about PF's approach - Psychic Magic, being just another type of magic, works with a lot of the things that Arcane and Divine work with. So you can stick metamagic rods in the loot, or wands/staves, or runestones of power, and they'll all work for the Psychic just as well as they would for a Sorcerer.

[Telok]

Another option is to start out (when you start using it) psionics lite. Begin with a multiclass fighter/psion or one of the partial-caster prestige classes like the Warmind or Psionic Fist.

[Fizban]

Let's take a look at "nova" capacity, which is really just throwing all your highest level spell slots into damage.

A 10th level Psion with 22 int has 118 power points. They spend 10 power points to get 10 dice of damage. 118/10=11.8 castings of max damage. If they use the Overchannel feat to boost their manifester level they still need to pay the power points, 118/12=9.8 castings of max damage.

A 10th level Sorcerer with 22 cha has: fifth x4, fourth x6, and third x7. All slots of 3rd-5th level can deal up to 10 dice of damage, but the Sorcerer has 17 slots compared to the Psion's 11-12, and that's just slots that can hit standard AoEs. Scorching Ray deals 8 dice, 11 at cl11, and he's got 7 slots full of that, and 8 1st level slots left for Mage Armor and Grease and whatnot. If the Psion is using Overchannel, well the Sorcerer can pick up Empower Spell and turn those 5th level slots into 15 die spells, and they generally end up even for now.

The Psion's advantage is in three areas. Most importantly, it only has to pay a couple of powers known to get all sorts of targeting and energy options, while a Sorcerer has to pay a ton of spells known to not even come close. After that, the Psion has two advantages in damage: +1 per die on fire and cold effects, and easy access to a feat that gives another +1 per die on the chosen energy type.

While few if any consider the Warmage, it has the spells known to negate most of the Psion's advantage in that area. Meanwhile the Sorcerer or Warmage gets free damage from caster level on their higher level slots, easy access to caster level boosts to use that free damage, and easy access to free metamagic to empower or maximize all those free dice. Metamagic Rods, Sudden Metamagic, and Reisidual Metamagic all let the arcanist put out more damage than the Psion is allowed, for better nova dps by definition.

The problem with psionic "nova"-ing is not that it's too powerful: it's that it's too precise. With plenty of room to learn other powers on the side, a Kineticist can know all the energy types and all the attack shapes and targets that they need to hit every foe, every round, with whatever energy bypasses their resistances. A Psion doesn't deal more damage than an arcanst and they can't throw around cheap buffs and battlefield control, but they can punch your guys right in the softest part of the face until they run out of power points.

But unlike an arcanist who's lower level slots still do more than enough work, a Psion just straight up runs out of power points faster, at least at this level of comparison. At 15th level I'm seeing a Psion with 17 maxed shots, while the Sorcerer has 19 of 5th and higher, not counting what they can do with the 16 casts of 3rd-4th and 16 more 1st-2nd.

I've seen the effect myself: running with a Psion and Warlock in the party, I was ready to be annoyed by the Warlock's constant unstoppable damage as in a previous game, but quickly realized it was the Psion who could hit every round which was more annoying (coupled with the fact that they could rest at their own option rather than being forced to conserve resources).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't worry too much. Unless the new group turns out to be high-op players of a certain level, psionics isn't any more of a threat to a DM than root* arcane magic. The ability to nova is handily countered by the fact it instantly pigeon-holes you into the 15 minute adventuring day. If you can prevent wizards and clerics from taking 15 minute adventuring days, you can do it for psions the same way.

The major thing to look out for in psionicist payers is the fact that psionics is a bit better at wrecking the action economy than vancian magic if you know one of the handful of tricks that allows them to do so and there are a few tricks that allow them to recharge their power reserve between fights as long as they can take a few minutes. Beyond that, they're actually just a bit tamer than clerics or wizards.

I can't really do much about your taste but as long as you're solid on the actual rules, psionics is nothing to be overly concerned about.

*by root, I mean the spells that appear natively on the sorc/wiz list, those being the ones most thematically tied to the idea of arcane magic. Root divine would be the stuff that appears on the cleric and druid lists.

[Telok]

You can hit something like the opposite effect too. If you have a psi who can leverage a low level effect or two into a whole encounter of decent ability then he may only spend his ML or less each encounter. It can be disconcerting to have someone appear to never run out of power. Astral Construct can seem this way, or Force Screen/Vigor/Share damage with a psicrystal on a fighter/wilder at lower levels.

But while that may be a bit disconcerting it isn't dangerous. They're limiting their power level down to fighters and rogues in exchange for similar endurance. No threat to balance from that.

[Sword-Geass]

What you have done is completely reasonable, and is actually a lot more than most DM would have made, not only for fear of breaking the balance of their games, but mainly about having a conflict with the flavor. I for one can't help but think of a bald guy everytime I think of a psion, and I really dislike the image (and seing the stereotype reinforced in almost every image of the XPH doesn't help), and that's something that can clearly be seen in my setting as psionics, while existant, lack any kind of special place and are instead hidden amidst the crowd (when a generic "magic user" would appear, I roll to see from which system they come, arcane/divine/psionics/shadowcasting, but the enfasis is placed on arcane and divine).

To make it clear: don't worry, you made a pretty big compromise, and it's normal being worried with something to which you are familiar, and even more if you don't favor it's fluff. You are acting as an excellent DM, at least in regards to this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I for one can't help but think of a bald guy everytime I think of a psion, and I really dislike the image (and seing the stereotype reinforced in almost every image of the XPH doesn't help)

Ialdabode was an ugly bastard, wasn't he. It helps if you just try to remember Mitra instead. She's the shaper on page 23. Much easier on the eyes and more normal looking to boot.

[Flickerdart]

I for one can't help but think of a bald guy everytime I think of a psion, and I really dislike the image (and seing the stereotype reinforced in almost every image of the XPH doesn't help)
I think the fault here lies with Charles Xavier, not the XPH. He's by far the most well known pop culture guy with psychic powers, and "bald = psychic" became a shorthand as a result. It doesn't help that telepathy is by far the most psychic - ask a random person what psychic powers do and "read minds" is going to top that list, while "move around objects" is probably not.

[Willie the Duck]

I might take the initiative and bring in travelers rather than wait for them. That's not a bad idea. But not for a while. As a concept, flavouring one region as the birthplace of psionics and only place with a deep psionics connection is ok?

Even better, not only is it only really practiced in one specific region, but most of the people in the rest of the world who pretend to be "in the know" regarding the practice are in fact charlatans attempting to profit off the exotic mystique of the art (and difficulty in finding a real expert to refute their position). A 2nd level mage with a stilled, silent mage hand can con quite a few people into thinking they are a psion. :-)

[Calthropstu]

So, after asking the Playground (I think twice), reading both books cover to cover, reading every thread that comes up on the subject and scouring the archives for similar threads, I STILL dont like Psionics. And I dont know why. Part of it I think is Fluff. Fluff for me is important. I dont like refluffing unless I am making something new based on something else. I think the other part is the level of optimization I am used to. I like to call it "High-Mid" optimization. a group where the members heavily optimize the melee characters, and the party in general, but the casters usually exist as buffers and "batmen-light". The idea of Nova seems scary to me as a DM.

But I am not here to talk about that. Having never been in a group with Psionics, I cant really judge and theres not a lot the playground can do to convince me of anything. And I am about to DM for a brand new group in a brand new place and I have no idea of their play level, so I am uncomfortable with letting them loose on a whole new magic system that has the potential to destroy my ability to DM correctly.

AND THEN...

I was world building and ended up creating a cut off part of the world where the gods and magic in general died. Based loosely on India, Tibet and the Buddhist Chinese culture, the more I constructed it, the more Psionics just sort of fell in to place. Which got me thinking.

For now, my party will be on the other side of the world. I was only world building because not all races are native to the play region and I thought it would be helpful for people to know here they come from. And for the first few months, I will be playing a story focused, DM driven game until I gauge their ability to wreck whatever I throw at them. Besides, I like my stories. And then I plan to open it out a little and let them roam around that area.

But that also presents the ability for them to travel elsewhere in the world. Including this cut off area. Which would bring them into contact with Psions (I will be using transparency rules) and Psionic Races, and present an opportunity to retire some characters and start as psionic ones. That way, I get to see psionics at a slow rate.

Am I a moron. I just cant see any downsides to this but Im worried for some reason.

A well off trader from a distant land with some odd abilities.

A group of low level psionic bad guys happen to work for a thrallherd in a distant land seeking to expand his control network for profit. Maybe attempting to break into the slave market.

An artifact supposed to be able to help defeat the bbeg was hidden in a land without magic hundreds of years ago.

A weird magic resistant mental disease only curable with psychic chirurgery needs the PCs to bring one of only 5 people known to be able to use it.

A crystal dragon offers an item from its hoard if the PCs retrieve something from a far off land.

Lots of ways to get them to go there.

[Psyren]

Ialdabode has both fugly art and good art. His Arch-Psion and Epic Psion both look awesome. I also love his Metamind form.

If you want crappy psionic art, look no further than the iconic Soulknife Xerxes. :smallyuk:

[Quertus]

The only issue I can see is the following sequence of events: the players go to Psionicland, get some psionic gear, character classes, and so forth, and then leave to pursue their fortunes elsewhere. And suddenly the psionics dry up! The psion can't find any power crystals. The ardent experiences a dearth of dorjes. The psychic warrior wants to replace his deep crystal weapon, but can't find another one made of that material. Those PCs that choose to go psionic may just learn to deal with it (and harbour deep-lying resentment) or actively lobby to have the group return to Psionicland, and spend all their time there.

Done right / with the right group, this can also be a lot of fun. But, yeah, probably best if the PCs go into it with their eyes open, and don't get stuck with a trap class / build.


Let's take a look at "nova" capacity, which is really just throwing all your highest level spell slots into damage.

A 10th level Psion with 22 int has 118 power points. They spend 10 power points to get 10 dice of damage. 118/10=11.8 castings of max damage. If they use the Overchannel feat to boost their manifester level they still need to pay the power points, 118/12=9.8 castings of max damage.

A 10th level Sorcerer with 22 cha has: fifth x4, fourth x6, and third x7. All slots of 3rd-5th level can deal up to 10 dice of damage, but the Sorcerer has 17 slots compared to the Psion's 11-12, and that's just slots that can hit standard AoEs. Scorching Ray deals 8 dice, 11 at cl11, and he's got 7 slots full of that, and 8 1st level slots left for Mage Armor and Grease and whatnot. If the Psion is using Overchannel, well the Sorcerer can pick up Empower Spell and turn those 5th level slots into 15 die spells, and they generally end up even for now.

The Psion's advantage is in three areas. Most importantly, it only has to pay a couple of powers known to get all sorts of targeting and energy options, while a Sorcerer has to pay a ton of spells known to not even come close. After that, the Psion has two advantages in damage: +1 per die on fire and cold effects, and easy access to a feat that gives another +1 per die on the chosen energy type.

While few if any consider the Warmage, it has the spells known to negate most of the Psion's advantage in that area. Meanwhile the Sorcerer or Warmage gets free damage from caster level on their higher level slots, easy access to caster level boosts to use that free damage, and easy access to free metamagic to empower or maximize all those free dice. Metamagic Rods, Sudden Metamagic, and Reisidual Metamagic all let the arcanist put out more damage than the Psion is allowed, for better nova dps by definition.

The problem with psionic "nova"-ing is not that it's too powerful: it's that it's too precise. With plenty of room to learn other powers on the side, a Kineticist can know all the energy types and all the attack shapes and targets that they need to hit every foe, every round, with whatever energy bypasses their resistances. A Psion doesn't deal more damage than an arcanst and they can't throw around cheap buffs and battlefield control, but they can punch your guys right in the softest part of the face until they run out of power points.

But unlike an arcanist who's lower level slots still do more than enough work, a Psion just straight up runs out of power points faster, at least at this level of comparison. At 15th level I'm seeing a Psion with 17 maxed shots, while the Sorcerer has 19 of 5th and higher, not counting what they can do with the 16 casts of 3rd-4th and 16 more 1st-2nd.

I've seen the effect myself: running with a Psion and Warlock in the party, I was ready to be annoyed by the Warlock's constant unstoppable damage as in a previous game, but quickly realized it was the Psion who could hit every round which was more annoying (coupled with the fact that they could rest at their own option rather than being forced to conserve resources).

Ok, I thought I was following you, and was going to complement you on this great write-up, but then you lost me at the conclusion.

Also

For a high-mid op game like the op described, wouldn't a decent martial build do just as much damage, all day long?

At 10th level... Vs. a single target, a 2-weapon sneak attack character is dealing a minimum of 24d6 damage. A level buyoff half ogre fighter with a 2-handed weapon (+4 via DMM persist GMW), with only power attack, shock trooper, and str boost great deals dice plus 36. Give him rhino hide armor, and it doubles. Give him a lance, and it doubles. Give him spirited charge, and it doubles. Give him a dwom and great cleave, and it's an AoE.

A triple-digit damage AoE, usable at will, by a straight fighter with minimal optimization, sounds like it completely outclasses the damage output of any of these casters. I'm not seeing the problem.