How good are intimidation feats?

[Rumo]

Hello,

actually I know the answer, they are supposed to be very good. But here's the problem: Our DM has decided on a house rule that adds -5 on any Intimidate check. And I'm wondering: Is it still worth going for this branch? Retraining is not allowed, I'll have to make a final and definite decision.

I am playing the Hell's Rebels path and my character is a Lvl 4 Slayer, considering to take Ranger Style Combat Menacing -> Intimidating Prowess, and later on learn Dazzling Display, Gory Finish and possible more of that kind. The -5 is a big downer, but on the other hand I have Charisma 12, Strenght 18 (and rising), and an additional bonus from Stalker. On top of that there's another player in the group planning on using intimidation tactics, which to my understanding greatly enhances the chance to seriously weaken the enemies this way.

I have never used Intimidation feats, and neither have I witessed them being used. Can anyone with experience on this subject give me some insight about whether or not it's worth it, all the above parameters considered?

[Geddy2112]

Forwarning-I know very little about the AP you are playing.

Since you are talking about feats, I assume you are talking about in combat intimidate and the uses of such to demoralize opponents. This is generally good in two types of combats.
1. Solo enemy-focus debuffs and kill.
2. Hordes of things-with a well placed dazzling display you can debuff a lot of enemies at once.

I don't exactly understand why your DM houseruled intimidate checks to get a -5, but the DC to demoralize in combat is not all that hard to hit.
A balor is a CR 20 monster with 20 HD and a wis mod of 7. If you have 20 ranks in intimidate, intimidate as a class skill, and a 5 modifier to cha and/or strength, you already have a 28 and will pass the check on a roll of 9 or better. With the -5 you need a 14 which is a bit much but still 35% chance of success. If you are maxing intimidate you probably have closer to a 35(skill focus, ability mods, etc) which is getting into the automatic pass territory, even with a -5.

The biggest problem with intimidation is that as you progress in levels, things start being outright immune to fear. A fair amount of enemies are immune to fear/mind affecting things outright, and this only increases with level. Likewise, taking a full round or standard action to shoot for a -2 debuff is just not all that useful in high level combat. Anything past 10 is either slinging spells or a ton of attacks from martials. Using a standard action to debuff(or full in dazzling display) is just meh. That said, disheartening display is good because you can push shaken into frightened, or even into panicked, despite fear immunity being common. You can also use soulless gaze and another damnnation feat to do this, although you will become evil doing so(from what little I know I assume you are not evil in this AP).

To solve the action economy problem, you have some classes like swashbuckler that can intimidate as a swift action. The feats cornugon smash and violent display(extra good because you have sneak attack) are the general go to feats for intimidation builds, as you don't sacrifice combat efficiency to debuff. Adding motivating display also helps as you use dazzling display to buff in addition to debuff, but morale bonuses are common and won't stack. Don't take gory finish, you are better with cornugon smash and violent display(they allow multiple, better attacks).

Breaking fear immunity is near impossible- archtypes here and there have mechanics to affect specific creatures that are normally immune with fear and/or mind affecting abilities, such as the Dirge Bard against undead. These are uncommon, usually require several levels of dip and only work on a specific enemy set. If you take three ranks in antipaladin though, you get the ability to affect everything with fear within 10 feet. Anything not immune to fear takes a -4 to svs against it, and those immune lose immunity. However, being evil/an antipaladin is going to have obvious drawbacks, if even allowed in the campaign.

Overall, intimidation is nice to have if you have ways of doing it without a full round action, but you don't want it to be your only trick for the times your opponents are immune to it.

[CharonsHelper]

Our DM has decided on a house rule that adds -5 on any Intimidate check.

Any reason why? Does he just think that Intimidate is too powerful?

[Rumo]

Thank you Geddy for this detailed answer. Most enemies in this adventure path are humans, and I expect we will also meet a fair share of devils. I agree that Gory Finish is crap, but Killing Flourish looks rather good to me.

@CharonsHelper: I don't really know why the DM made this decision. He is very good at DMing, but I don't really agree with many of his house rules.

[Geddy2112]

Thank you Geddy for this detailed answer. Most enemies in this adventure path are humans, and I expect we will also meet a fair share of devils. I agree that Gory Finish is crap, but Killing Flourish looks rather good to me.
Devils are not immune to fear, so between devils and humans you should be a-ok to intimidate. Killing flourish is a much better feat than gory finish. If you have violent display, killing flourish, and cornagun smash you will be able to intimidate every round, and most times against everything within 30 ft. It is pretty feat intensive, but you could easily do it. In addition, pick up dreadful carnage to intimidate as a free action when you drop something below zero HP, stacking on with killing flourish for two checks(one free one swift).

So feats
1-weapon focus(power attack if human for bonus feat. Skill focus-intimidate for half elf)
2-intimidating prowess(through ranger combat style)
3-dazzling display
4-power attack(rogue talent slayer talent, combat trick rogue talent) or combat trick for killing flourish
5-killing flourish/power attack. If you have both skill focus(intimidate). If nothing else improved initiative is always good.
6- shatter defenses(ranger combat style)
7-violent display/cornagun smash
9-violent display/cornagun smash
10-dreadful carnage(ranger combat style)
11-free(I suggest furious focus or improved critical)
12-advanced talent(rogue talent:feat) either furious focus or improved critical.

So by level 10, you get to intimidate twice within 30ft if you drop something below zero HP, get a free intimidate check on anything you hurt with a power attack, and dazzling display as a swift action anytime you confirm a critical hit or get sneak attack. Since shatter defenses gives you extra chances to sneak attack, you trigger more often which can make enemies flat footed and the cycle continues. With an 18-20 crit range weapon you are going to get critical hits off for violent display often, even more so when you have improved critical. I suggest the falchion. Likewise, since you are using power attack with a falchion 2 handed you are going to be doing a lot of damage, so if nothing else everything will die.

For items, consider a cruel enchantment on your weapon to pile on the debuffs. Likewise, an ominous enchantment will boost intimidate checks. A circlet of persuasion is fairly cheap, occupies the head slot and adds a +3 to all charisma based checks.

For spells, see if you can have instrument of agony(cleric, oracle, inquisitor) and/or face of the devourer (antipaladin, cleric/oracle, druid, sorcerer/wizard) cast on you. Face of the devourer is 1st level and might be worth getting a wand for somebody that can use it.

At level 10 with intimidating prowess (18str 12 cha) and ten ranks in intimidate you have a +18 right there. With skill focus, circlet of persuasion, and face of the devourer you have a +31 which is going to auto pass against anything you would reasonably be up against at that level, with potential for extra rounds to leave the shaken.

[CharonsHelper]

As to intimidate combos - I'm a big fan of the Blade of Mercy trait combined with the Enforcer feat and use a 18-20 weapon, pushing out to 15-20 ASAP. It causes Shaken for a # of rounds equal to nonlethal damage done (basically the whole fight) and on a critical hit it causes them to be frightened (which is awesome).

The -5 to intimidate is rather rough though and it'd make you devote more resources to be good at it. Borderline worth it unless you'll be up against a lot of psionic casters.

[Rumo]

Thanks for all the advice! I have taken a closer look at my character's possibilities. Unfortunately I made the mistake to learn Weapon Focus as a feat, when it was available as a Slayer Talent. This makes it extremely hard to make such a feat-eating build possible. Now I'm leaning towards the following no-Intimidate-feat setup. Every six levels I gain an extra Slayer Talent as race bonus.

Taken so far: Power Attack, Favoured Terrain, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Weapon Focus

4: Cleave
5: Cleaving Finish
6: Furious Focus, Favoured Terrain: Hell
7: Lunge
8: Combat Trick: Improved Critical
9: Toughness/Improved Initiative
10: Opportunist
11: Toughness/Improved Initiative
12: Possibly Slayer Camouflage and Evasion, but Advanced also allows me to take a feat of my choice, which may be Critical Focus or Combat Reflexes or Seething Hatred: Devils

I'm aware that it's a bit off-topic because we are leaving the subject of intimidation here, but I'd certainly appreciate any ideas of improvement. I would be surprised if there are not any good feats that I have missed when making this list. Favoured Terrain Hell may sound like a strange choice, but this is where the campaign can be expected to have its big finale. Lunge is a feat that I have (strangely) never seen in use by anyone, but, correct me if I'm wrong, which seems extremely useful to me. Especially since our DM gave all of us a free Quick Draw feat, which allows me to carry (and put to full use) both a range weapon and a Falchion without any loss of time involved when swapping them.

[Geddy2112]

Personally I am not a huge fan of cleave, but it can be good in the right circumstance. I have only seen it on the table once, to middling effect. Against small groups of decently powered baddies it can really shine. It is a bit risky as you need the first attack to connect, so you need the party buff team to really pile em on you.
If you wanna go cleave, drop cleaving finish for great cleave. Great cleave is better in every possible metric-finish just gives you the chance for one more attack should you kill something, but great cleave works so long as you chain hits. You can get the mighty cleaving enchantment instead for one additional attack(three should cover most situations)

Lunge is a solid feat, and really good with cleave as you can hit people behind targets and such. Just don't use it unless you need it cause of the -2 to AC. Also be mindful of lunging and where you will get sneak attacks.

I highly doubt you need toughness. You have a d10 hit dice, and so long as you have a con of 10 or better you should have plenty of HP. It is mainly a feat for feeble casters or super tanks. I would take combat reflexes or critical focus.

Slayer camoflauge is incredibly campaign specific-you would have to be dead certain you are only going to be in 1-2 terrains the entire game and even then you need to be built on stealth. Finding cover/concealment is not that hard;I would skip it and grab evasion or another feat.

[Rumo]

I was thinking that Cleaving Finish is much better, as it can be used as part of a Full Attack. Cleave is mainly meant as a prerequisite for this, that can occasionally ne put to use.
An idea behind Slayer Camouflage is that about 90% of the campaign takes place in the city, and the rest underground and in hell. So I will almost always be in the right terrain to use it. I have Stealth maximised, but whether this is still enough to put it to good use - I just don't know.
Regarding Toughness you may be right, but I already went down twice, which made me think a few more hit points might come in useful. But you may be right - well, let's see how often I get below zero before I have to make the choice at level 9. :)
Anyway, thanks again for all that valuable input!

[EldritchWeaver]

Thanks for all the advice! I have taken a closer look at my character's possibilities. Unfortunately I made the mistake to learn Weapon Focus as a feat, when it was available as a Slayer Talent. This makes it extremely hard to make such a feat-eating build possible.

Why don't you ask your DM if he would be willing to allow you to switch the source of Weapon Focus once you get the next slayer talent? That way it doesn't even change what your previous abilities were. And in the worst case, there are retraining rules, but these cost gold to change. Personally, as GM, I allow some amount of leeway to switch stuff around (as long it doesn't break the overall concept). Forcing people to play characters they don't like does not make for a fun game.

[Rumo]

I completely agree with you. But my DM doesn't, and he's the one with the final decision. ;) No retraining whatsoever.
I have to say it again, he handles many things in a way that could not be more different from what I do when I am DM. The retraining issue is only relatively minor compared to other disagreements I had with him. On the other hand he does a fantastic job handling this adventure path, he puts a lot of work into it, and this work is put to good use.

I'd like to come back to an earlier question: Do others agree that Greater Cleave is a better pick than Cleaving Finish? In my view Greater Cleave is highly situational, while Cleaving Finish should give me a lot of extra attacks (as I'm supposed to kill a lot of bad guys and I'm carrying a range weapon). On the other hand, what do I know? I usually play arcane spellcasters, and as far as fighter-type characters go I'm still a total noob.