5ft step, and drawing a weapon with +1 BAB

[Boci]

Game is pathfinder but I guess it applies to 3.5 equally:

Can you draw a weapon as a free action if you take a 5ft step. The relevant wording from the pfsdr is:

"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."

So the question as I see it is whether or not a 5ft step is a regular move. I strongly feel it isn't. I can see a charge being considered a regular move, but not a 5ft step. Am I wrong?

Followup question: if I am right and a 5ft step indeed doesn't allow you to quick draw, is it a good idea to houserule that it does?

Bonus question:
Slayer's "Study Target" ability (which gives +1 to hit and damage against said target) includes this clause:

If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).

That means the triggering attack benefits from the extra damage right? I mean, RAI it seems to, but I'm not sure how that works. Its trigger by SA damage being dealt, isn't it too late for the weapon damage to get a bonus? But then, whilst a little convoluted RAW wise, I guess the intent is reasonable clear, so +1 damage on the triggering attack? Yay or nay?

[Diarmuid]

My group does not allow for drawing as part of a 5' step. I wouldn't allow it as then anyone with +1 BAB and 5 feet to move can draw their weapon and full attack in a given round. Infringes too much on Quick Draw for us in that way.

A charge is also not "normal movement".

[Darrin]

"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."

So the question as I see it is whether or not a 5ft step is a regular move. I strongly feel it isn't. I can see a charge being considered a regular move, but not a 5ft step. Am I wrong?


The text is the same in the 3.5 SRD/PHB. Unfortunately, the rules never define what would be considered a "regular move". It looks like what the designers intended was "regular move = move action". Even if we allow for a rather broad definition of a regular move, the 5-foot step is not listed in the movement section, it's under the "Miscellanous Actions", and the table in the book defines it as a "no action". In any case, I wouldn't consider it a regular move.

As for charging, that's a "Special Attack", and I think that by definition disqualifies it as a "regular move". Movement during a charge has some other restrictions, so much so that I don't see any wiggle room.




Followup question: if I am right and a 5ft step indeed doesn't allow you to quick draw, is it a good idea to houserule that it does?


So you want to make sure your murderhobos can go straight from "negotiating with the king" to "gutting the king like a fish" with absolutely no possibility of warning or interruption? Sounds to me more like a "Whatever works best for your group" kinda thing.



If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).

That means the triggering attack benefits from the extra damage right? I mean, RAI it seems to, but I'm not sure how that works. Its trigger by SA damage being dealt, isn't it too late for the weapon damage to get a bonus? But then, whilst a little convoluted RAW wise, I guess the intent is reasonable clear, so +1 damage on the triggering attack? Yay or nay?

Yes. In general an immediate action happens before the event that triggered it. In this case, the immediate action happens before the damage is applied (even though the damage has to happen in order for the immediate action to happen... oh you wacky designers...). In general, the timing stack for immediates tends to be LIFO (Last In, First Out). For some reason, this is *ONLY* explained in the Miniatures Handbook. No other description of immediate actions explicitly mentions this.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That means the triggering attack benefits from the extra damage right? I mean, RAI it seems to, but I'm not sure how that works. Its trigger by SA damage being dealt, isn't it too late for the weapon damage to get a bonus? But then, whilst a little convoluted RAW wise, I guess the intent is reasonable clear, so +1 damage on the triggering attack? Yay or nay?
Immediate actions tend to interrupt/happen before the action that triggered them. So yes, the triggering attack would benefit, as you're interrupting your own action. You can even use it on an AoO SA.

[Albions_Angel]

The way my group played it was that drawing a weapon was always a move action. Its just that if you had +1 BAB, you could do it and move at the same time.

So in this situation, drawing the weapon and moving 5' is a move action, leaving you with a single standard action. Its not that the 5' step takes up a move, its that you are simply choosing to only move 5' of your full movement (which also happens to not provoke).

You cant 5', draw and full attack, but you can 5', draw and single attack.

[nyjastul69]

The way my group played it was that drawing a weapon was always a move action. Its just that if you had +1 BAB, you could do it and move at the same time.

So in this situation, drawing the weapon and moving 5' is a move action, leaving you with a single standard action. Its not that the 5' step takes up a move, its that you are simply choosing to only move 5' of your full movement (which also happens to not provoke).

You cant 5', draw and full attack, but you can 5', draw and single attack.

This is how I've always ruled on this matter as well.

[ewoods]

My interpretation has always been that the phrase "regular move" is intended to distinguish a move from a move action. A 5 foot step is not considered a move, nor a move action, so I support the interpretation that you couldn't take a 5 foot step and draw your weapon as the same time.

[Boci]

Okay, I think I'm going to go with my origional ruleing, move actions and also charging allows the free draw if you have BAB +1 or higher, but not from a 5ft step. It steps on Quick Draw toes a little, but that was always a bit of a niche feat, I don't think allowing draws on a charge will change the fact that you only really take it if you need to draw 3+ weapons per round (or you have a spare feat and like the aethetics of it). Besides, melee versatiliy is more important to me.


So you want to make sure your murderhobos can go straight from "negotiating with the king" to "gutting the king like a fish" with absolutely no possibility of warning or interruption? Sounds to me more like a "Whatever works best for your group" kinda thing.

Ummm, if this house rule is the only thing keeping your PC from murdering the king, it sounds like a lost cause. There's quickdraw, magical items, spell casters, monks and other unarmed character, natural weapon users, ways of generating extra actions, shapeshifters, illusions...

Honestly I'm confused as to how you seem to think murdering the king will be the natural result of thise house rule...

[Firest Kathon]

As for charging, that's a "Special Attack", and I think that by definition disqualifies it as a "regular move". Movement during a charge has some other restrictions, so much so that I don't see any wiggle room.

I don't think allowing draws on a charge will change the fact that you only really take it if you need to draw 3+ weapons per round (or you have a spare feat and like the aethetics of it). Besides, melee versatiliy is more important to me.
In Pathfinder, unlike D&D 3.5, you can actually draw a weapon on a charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Charge).

If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
This sentence is not in the 3.5 SRD/PHB/RC, so this is Pathfinder only.

[Boci]

In Pathfinder, unlike D&D 3.5, you can actually draw a weapon on a charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Charge).

This sentence is not in the 3.5 SRD/PHB/RC, so this is Pathfinder only.

And they reference this under charging, but not drawing a weapon. Yay for confused editing.

Oh well, its only a house rule in 3.5. Cool.

[Darrin]

Ummm, if this house rule is the only thing keeping your PC from murdering the king, it sounds like a lost cause. There's quickdraw, magical items, spell casters, monks and other unarmed character, natural weapon users, ways of generating extra actions, shapeshifters, illusions...

Honestly I'm confused as to how you seem to think murdering the king will be the natural result of thise house rule...

Point well taken. I apologize. I'm not entirely sure why I thought that was a valid complaint, as I'm probably the last person who should be advocating against murderhoboism.

Hmm... I was going to make a point about charging, but it looks like the PFSRD fixed the wording on Pounce. In 3.5, the full attack follows after the charge, allowing you to charge + single attack + full attack. In PF, the full attack is still part of the charge action.