September Sage Advice out [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

tkuremento

2016-09-19, 05:40 PM

It did specify that it had to be distracting. A mouse in your pocket isn't distracting. A mouse running around on the floor freaking out the goblin who is murophobic probably would though.

I tend to think of bats. owls and ravens as better uses - flapping in front of enemy faces to distract them from your dagger in their kidneys. YMMY of course.

Could rather loud squeaking not suffice? I know I'd be put off by what I thought was a squeaking halfling only to see a tail sticking out of its coat pocket. As I stare at the pocket, am I not distracted? :P

Specter

2016-09-19, 05:54 PM

If familiars can give advantage to your attacks, I thought it was evident that they could give Sneak to rogues.

tkuremento

2016-09-19, 06:07 PM

If familiars can give advantage to your attacks, I thought it was evident that they could give Sneak to rogues.

The second is more so having them like, actually count as the ally within 5 feet clause of the sneak attack.

tkuremento

2016-09-19, 06:12 PM

I had never considered using a familiar for sneak attack. Could be useful to keep a mouse in your pocket and get Sneak attack all the time. :p

I never thought of it either. I could totally go rogue X/EK 3 and get find familiar that way. Then I can have my mouse help for advantage and throw a dagger for sneak attack, then because 3 EK I can use a bonus action to recall my dagger. Sadly you can't call two weapons with it otherwise you could invest a few more levels in EK for extra attack and throw two, though of course the second wouldn't get sneak attack anyway.

Shining Wrath

2016-09-19, 06:15 PM

I never thought of it either. I could totally go rogue X/EK 3 and get find familiar that way. Then I can have my mouse help for advantage and throw a dagger for sneak attack, then because 3 EK I can use a bonus action to recall my dagger. Sadly you can't call two weapons with it otherwise you could invest a few more levels in EK for extra attack and throw two, though of course the second wouldn't get sneak attack anyway.

With luck, you only have to cast Find Familiar once. Buy a scroll or have a friendly wizard scribe one. Then all you need is to successfully Use Magic Device.

tkuremento

2016-09-19, 06:25 PM

With luck, you only have to cast Find Familiar once. Buy a scroll or have a friendly wizard scribe one. Then all you need is to successfully Use Magic Device.

True, but you need 3 EK for the feature that lets you recall a bonded weapon as a bonus action if you want to have "endless" daggers for throwing without having some kind of returning magic weapon. So since you need 3 EK you might as well take up Find Familiar as your one non-Abjuration/Evocation 1st level spell.

Vogonjeltz

2016-09-19, 06:48 PM

I had never considered using a familiar for sneak attack. Could be useful to keep a mouse in your pocket and get Sneak attack all the time. :p

If the mouse were fulfilling the requirements, sure

Quintessence

2016-09-19, 09:31 PM

The bard magical secrets ruling makes me really sad...

Specter

2016-09-19, 09:38 PM

I never thought of it either. I could totally go rogue X/EK 3 and get find familiar that way. Then I can have my mouse help for advantage and throw a dagger for sneak attack, then because 3 EK I can use a bonus action to recall my dagger. Sadly you can't call two weapons with it otherwise you could invest a few more levels in EK for extra attack and throw two, though of course the second wouldn't get sneak attack anyway.

Or full Arcane Trickster. Another point for a class that seems to get less and less love every day.

DracoKnight

2016-09-19, 09:55 PM

Or full Arcane Trickster. Another point for a class that seems to get less and less love every day.

I LOVE the Arcane Trickster! I'm playing a khajiit Arcane Trickster in a Skyrim campaign. I love having a snake Familiar for advantage when I need it. And Mage Hand Ledgerdemain is amazing - pickpocketing people from range as a bonus action is stellar. Disarming traps from range has saved me from a LOT of damage :smallsmile:

DragonSorcererX

2016-09-19, 10:10 PM

I LOVE the Arcane Trickster! I'm playing a khajiit Arcane Trickster in a Skyrim campaign. I love having a snake Familiar for advantage when I need it. And Mage Hand Ledgerdemain is amazing - pickpocketing people from range as a bonus action is stellar. Disarming traps from range has saved me from a LOT of damage :smallsmile:

[Off-topic] DracoKnight, how do you guys deal with the Skyrim magic system? Do you guys just use the Spell Points? And what about the Skyrim spells, do you guys use the standard D&D spells or homebrew spells?

DracoKnight

2016-09-19, 10:20 PM

[Off-topic] DracoKnight, how do you guys deal with the Skyrim magic system? Do you guys just use the Spell Points? And what about the Skyrim spells, do you guys use the standard D&D spells or homebrew spells?

Spell Points instead of spell slots, and we use all of the 5E spells (minus resurrection spells) + a variety of homebrew spells. If a player finds a spell that's in Skyrim and not currently represented in 5E and our current list of spells, then the DM has me make it.

We use races balanced for Skyrim, and not against the rest of 5E.

All classes have their niche in Skyrim. The hardest to figure out was the Druid, as there's not a lot of shape shifting in Skyrim, but the DM's figured it so that if you're a Druid you're a priest of Hircine.

DragonSorcererX

2016-09-19, 10:26 PM

Spell Points instead of spell slots, and we use all of the 5E spells (minus resurrection spells) + a variety of homebrew spells. If a player finds a spell that's in Skyrim and not currently represented in 5E and our current list of spells, then the DM has me make it.

We use races balanced for Skyrim, and not against the rest of 5E.

All classes have their niche in Skyrim. The hardest to figure out was the Druid, as there's not a lot of shape shifting in Skyrim, but the DM's figured it so that if you're a Druid you're a priest of Hircine.

:smallsmile:

DracoKnight

2016-09-19, 10:43 PM

:smallsmile:

Sorry, that was more info than you asked for. But yeah, we have lots of fun! :smallsmile: Our current campaign is revolving around a dragonbreak (how the DM is explaining everyone as the dragonborn, so he doesn't appear to be playing favorites). We started at level 1, and we're currently level 7.

Our party consists of:

Dares the Fates, a Totem Warrior with the Bear totem from 3rd level and (homebrew) Dragon totem at 6th level.

Kirstia Greymane, a Totem Warrior with the Bear totem from 3rd level and the Wolf totem at 6th level.

Jodar Ra'Vabaiit Krin Renrij-dar (Wizard-thief, Great One who does laugh at dirty wit) - or Krin - who is a Khajiit Arcane Trickster.

And Nemo Invenire, an Imperial Draconic Sorcerer who possesses silver draconic ancestry.

Pex

2016-09-19, 11:11 PM

There was talk way back that a familiar couldn't or at least shouldn't be able to provide advantage to attacks by helping since they couldn't attack themselves. It's now clarified they can.

DracoKnight

2016-09-19, 11:12 PM

Tectorman

2016-09-19, 11:20 PM

The bard magical secrets ruling makes me really sad...

The Spellcasting feature says the new spell has to be from the Bard spell list, but Magical Secrets says the chosen spell counts as a Bard spell for you. Doesn't that make the spell you select qualify as a replacement?

Quintessence

2016-09-19, 11:27 PM

The Spellcasting feature says the new spell has to be from the Bard spell list, but Magical Secrets says the chosen spell counts as a Bard spell for you. Doesn't that make the spell you select qualify as a replacement?

Well some people were playing it as you could retrain the magical secrets into any spell due to how you gained it.

odigity

2016-09-20, 12:01 AM

I had never considered using a familiar for sneak attack. Could be useful to keep a mouse in your pocket and get Sneak attack all the time. :p

This is extremely common in games at my local store. It's why I'm blowing the first of my Swashbuckler/Socerer's few precious ASIs on Magic Initiate (to get Find Familiar).

Make sure to keep a good stock of components (herbs/incense/whatever) for the spell since your familiar will be dying regularly. Still worth it at 10gp/pop, though if you're using Magic Initiate, you'll only be able to cast it once a day.

8wGremlin

2016-09-20, 01:42 AM

don't you have to worry about the creature sharing a space with you, or are you it's mount?

Malifice

2016-09-20, 02:14 AM

This is extremely common in games at my local store. It's why I'm blowing the first of my Swashbuckler/Socerer's few precious ASIs on Magic Initiate (to get Find Familiar).

The monsters attack the familiar. Its got an AC of around 12, and 1 Hit Point.

Unless you have a spare hour to spend after every battle, its not entirely an effective way to spend a feat.

With 6-8 encounters per day, and only 2 short rests, and no guarantee that its 'distraction' will even work all the time to grant you advantage, im not sure its a good idea.

Shield master would be a better investment. It lets you knock a critter prone every round for advantage.

odigity

2016-09-20, 03:31 AM

The monsters attack the familiar. Its got an AC of around 12, and 1 Hit Point.

Unless you have a spare hour to spend after every battle, its not entirely an effective way to spend a feat.

With 6-8 encounters per day, and only 2 short rests, and no guarantee that its 'distraction' will even work all the time to grant you advantage, im not sure its a good idea.

Shield master would be a better investment. It lets you knock a critter prone every round for advantage.

1) Owls have 60' spd and Flyby ability. It can fly in, distract, fly out, thereby staying mostly out of harms way. Also, if I kill the creature the same round, I again keep it from harm.
2) Yes, it will still die often. But it will also help often. Even casting it once a day, I expect to get enough value.
3) Even if it does die, it used up my enemy's attack, which was also helpful. (Except when it dies to an AoE, which I actually think is the biggest danger.)
4) I have no shield. (Swashbuckler/Sorcerer)

tkuremento

2016-09-20, 07:41 AM

Or full Arcane Trickster. Another point for a class that seems to get less and less love every day.

Again, the point of the build that I am referring to isn't just an always on sneak attack rogue but one that can throw a dagger and have it come back, because you can only carry so many daggers.

"If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand."

So you have mouse help on their turn, on your turn you throw a dagger with advantage and get sneak attack as your attack action, and use your bonus action to call the dagger back. If you need to use your bonus action for something else, well then you just recall the dagger at the beginning of your next turn!

R.Shackleford

2016-09-20, 09:15 AM

There was talk way back that a familiar couldn't or at least shouldn't be able to provide advantage to attacks by helping since they couldn't attack themselves. It's now clarified they can.

That talk was by people who didn't read the book and just assumed things.

There wasn't a need to clarify that one, as the rules are fairly obvious and straight forward, but I'm glad now that people will stop bringing that up as much.

Of course the issue is a break on a 5e ideology of other having the same things called different things/different things called the same thing.

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 09:43 AM

That talk was by people who didn't read the book and just assumed things

I am one of those people who find the ruling that familiars can help attack to be iffy. But I could have sworn there was a bit in there somewhere about not being able to help on things one was not able to do. Must be misremembering that bit from something else.

I confess that I dislike a low level spell being so powerful. Seems like it will be the go to spell for everyone.

Edit: Right, the srd says on age 79 that you can't help on something you cannot achieve on your own. A rogue's advantage on sneak attack does not require the ally to be attacking or taking any sort of help action, just that they are adjacent. So it seems that as long as the familiar is within 5' when the rogue attacks, they should get their sneak attack damage.

Regardless of what the sage says, the rules as written indicate that a familiar cannot help attack. So I find the sage ruling to be baffling.

tkuremento

2016-09-20, 10:38 AM

I am one of those people who find the ruling that familiars can help attack to be iffy. But I could have sworn there was a bit in there somewhere about not being able to help on things one was not able to do. Must be misremembering that bit from something else.

I confess that I dislike a low level spell being so powerful. Seems like it will be the go to spell for everyone.

Edit: Right, the srd says on age 79 that you can't help on something you cannot achieve on your own. A rogue's advantage on sneak attack does not require the ally to be attacking or taking any sort of help action, just that they are adjacent. So it seems that as long as the familiar is within 5' when the rogue attacks, they should get their sneak attack damage.

Regardless of what the sage says, the rules as written indicate that a familiar cannot help attack. So I find the sage ruling to be baffling.

The only thing I can think of is that specifies Ability Checks as that is the section it is in. On Page 93 it also mentions Help action, specifically in the combat section, but doesn't specify that limitation. It even seems as though to separate the granting advantage on an attack. However now that I have actually read that, it breaks my build because that specifies 5 feet, so no ranged dagger advantage unless throwing whilst next to someone, which seems pointless.... :(

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 10:52 AM

The only thing I can think of is that specifies Ability Checks as that is the section it is in. On Page 93 it also mentions Help action, specifically in the combat section, but doesn't specify that limitation. It even seems as though to separate the granting advantage on an attack. However now that I have actually read that, it breaks my build because that specifies 5 feet, so no ranged dagger advantage unless throwing whilst next to someone, which seems pointless.... :(

Specifically, it says:

"Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who’s leading the effort—or the one with the highest ability modifier—can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action.

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone."

tkuremento

2016-09-20, 11:28 AM

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 11:42 AM

That is again specifically talking about "make an ability check" and that has nothing to do with an attack.

The help action that relates to giving advantage on an attack is "Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

So Sage Advice would seem to indicate, but that's not how i read it. The section I quoted specifically says that to help in combat, you use the help action, but it does not say that you are not helping so the help rules don't apply. The thing it does say is that when you are in combat, use the help action to help. Reading it does not make me think that I use the help action and different rules apply. Apparently that is what the devs intended, though.

Also I don't think something that can't attack should be able to team up to attack. Maybe it could still cause a distraction, but it won't be automatic/ It needs to have a description there might be a contest, save, or outright failure, but certainly not auto success.

And also also, I think that makes it too powerful of a spell. Familiars already add a lot to a character. Adding true strike for free is too much.

tkuremento

2016-09-20, 12:06 PM

So Sage Advice would seem to indicate, but that's not how i read it. The section I quoted specifically says that to help in combat, you use the help action, but it does not say that you are not helping so the help rules don't apply. The thing it does say is that when you are in combat, use the help action to help. Reading it does not make me think that I use the help action and different rules apply. Apparently that is what the devs intended, though.

Also I don't think something that can't attack should be able to team up to attack. Maybe it could still cause a distraction, but it won't be automatic/ It needs to have a description there might be a contest, save, or outright failure, but certainly not auto success.

And also also, I think that makes it too powerful of a spell. Familiars already add a lot to a character. Adding true strike for free is too much.

You can make ability checks in combat. Page 73 is page of the Ability Checks, and as such that portion of Help is referring to using Ability Checks, including on combat. However we are not talking about using help for an ability check as an attack roll is NOT an ability check. So if we look at the help subsection in the Combat Actions section it adds the thing I quoted above.

So given the part about needing to be able to do the thing is in the ability check section only, to me it seems to only apply to ability checks. And given that the help action to apply advantage to an ATTACK ROLL is NOT an ability check, it shouldn't apply.

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 12:19 PM

You can make ability checks in combat. Page 73 is page of the Ability Checks, and as such that portion of Help is referring to using Ability Checks, including on combat. However we are not talking about using help for an ability check as an attack roll is NOT an ability check. So if we look at the help subsection in the Combat Actions section it adds the thing I quoted above.

So given the part about needing to be able to do the thing is in the ability check section only, to me it seems to only apply to ability checks. And given that the help action to apply advantage to an ATTACK ROLL is NOT an ability check, it shouldn't apply.

This is so counter intuitive. You can't do something AT ALL, so you can't team up with someone to help do it AT ALL. You can't so something at AT ALL, but you can team up with someone to help do it because ATTACK ROLL. This does not seem like clearly written consistent rules to me.

orange74

2016-09-20, 12:20 PM

The only thing I can think of is that specifies Ability Checks as that is the section it is in.
I think the other pertinent point is that under the Help action, it says, "Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target..."

That is, (1) "alternatively" means this is a different option/mechanic from helping somebody pick a lock or play the trombone and (2) the description specifically mentions non-attacking activities, which aren't forbidden for familiars.

odigity

2016-09-20, 12:43 PM

It may seem powerful, but:

1) Familiars die one the first hit or AoE blast and take one hour + one slot (unless ritual) + 10gp to regain.
2) There are very few ways to get access to Find Familiar, and they will all be sacrifices for you:
- dip wizard (requires high Int, probably won't fit will with most martial builds, sets you back levels)
- dip Warlock 3 Chain/Tome (costs three levels, which is huge, requires Cha, abilities won't complement many martial builds)
- Magic Initiate (costs a precious ASI, will only be able to cast 1/day)
- Bard secrets (not till level 6)

There might be one or two methods I'm missing, but you get the picture. Boy was it painful spending my Swashbuckler/Sorcerer's first ASI on Magic Initiate for Find Familiar...

Lastly, it only gives you advantage once per turn. Barbarian's Reckless Attack gives it to you on *all* attacks, as does Greater Invisibility, Darkness + Witch Sight, etc...

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 12:47 PM

I think the other pertinent point is that under the Help action, it says, "Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target..."

That is, (1) "alternatively" means this is a different option/mechanic from helping somebody pick a lock or play the trombone and (2) the description specifically mentions non-attacking activities, which aren't forbidden for familiars.

Sure, it's possible that's what was meant, and seems to be RAI. I don't think it is particularly clear, which R Shackleford claimed upthread with "That talk was by people who didn't read the book and just assumed things."

It occurs to me that the familiar can also "help" with anything that doesn't specifically require a trained skill or tool use to do, and give the character advantage on all sorts of ability checks.

R.Shackleford

2016-09-20, 01:00 PM

tkuremento

2016-09-20, 01:05 PM

orange74

2016-09-20, 01:06 PM

Sure, it's possible that's what was meant, and seems to be RAI. I don't think it is particularly clear, which R Shackleford claimed upthread with "That talk was by people who didn't read the book and just assumed things."

It occurs to me that the familiar can also "help" with anything that doesn't specifically require a trained skill or tool use to do, and give the character advantage on all sorts of ability checks.
It never seemed unclear to me either; the spell says, "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." Reading that on its own makes me think, "Help is another action, it seems like the familiar could do that." To arrive at the opposite conclusion you'd have to read the non-combat definition of helping and then (I would argue) misread the combat definition of Help. From a fluff standpoint, sure, what help is a rat—but if the rat weren't your familiar, it could Attack (albeit feebly). [Aside: we could also get into the definition of "can't." A rat familiar can't play the lute because it's a rat. It can't bite people because it's a familiar.]

As far as helping on ability checks, it seems that the RAW give some explicit situations where helping is not permitted, and then give the DM a lot of leeway beyond that. Your rat might be able to help you spot something, but that doesn't mean the DM has to allow it to help you scribe a scroll.

TheOldCrow

2016-09-20, 01:08 PM

Just don't try to lawyer one section of the rules into another section of the rules and the clouds part and things become crystal clear.

The rule is only as convoluted as you want to make it.

It's like arguing Cunning Action doesn't let you hide with a bonus action because the Hide Action is an Action in a different section of the book.

As I did not read anything and can only make assumptions, am lawyering by quoting rules I didn't read, and can't see for the clouds, please explain to me how the very clearly written cunning action ability of the rogue is just like the clearly written help. I mean, they use the same wording and all, right? I wouldn't know, not being one to read and all. /s

Millstone85

2016-09-20, 02:26 PM

The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component.So you have to say "These aren't the *cough* consilium *cough* druids you are looking for" and pretend it was an expletive? Or can the mystic words be something like "Would you kindly"? This ruling is annoying.

Gwendol

2016-09-20, 03:00 PM

The bard magical secrets ruling makes me really sad...

The stated reason doesn't quite add up, no. Either you can switch them out on leveling or not. Switching, but only using a spell on the original bard list is overly pedantic, and kind of breaks the idea of the ability in the first place (gaining ecclectic knowledge).

orange74

2016-09-20, 03:13 PM

The stated reason doesn't quite add up, no. Either you can switch them out on leveling or not. Switching, but only using a spell on the original bard list is overly pedantic, and kind of breaks the idea of the ability in the first place (gaining ecclectic knowledge).
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm having trouble seeing the confusion on this one. When I read it, I thought, "Really? SA about that? Booooring."

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list..."

That seems clear enough to me. Your MS spells are (for you) bard spells, so you can swap them out, but you have to replace them with bard spells, and it's explicitly spells "from the bard spell list." I don't really see how there's any other reading of the text, especially since the parallel EK description says, "The new spell (...) must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level." So when they want those slots to be permanently flexible, they come right out and say it.

Qzotia

2016-09-20, 05:08 PM

This is so counter intuitive. You can't do something AT ALL, so you can't team up with someone to help do it AT ALL. You can't so something at AT ALL, but you can team up with someone to help do it because ATTACK ROLL. This does not seem like clearly written consistent rules to me.

Seems clear to me, but I'm a newbie.

(a) Specific rules trump general rules.

(b) The chapter on Combat gives you two alternative ways you can use the Help action (newbs can't post links) in combat: You can use it for an ability check. Or you can use the Help action to make someone else's attack more effective.

(c) The chapter on Ability Checks (newbs can't post links) says that folks can work together (implied: "work together on ability checks). It then adds a more specific ruling when Helping on an ability check: You have to be able to perform the action yourself, to Help with an ability check. It says nothing about helping an Attack action. The chapter has nothing to do with Attack actions.

(d) Find Familiar (newbs can't post links) allows the familiar to take any action in combat, except Attack. There is no restriction on it taking the Help action. It can take the Help action.

It can take either alternative of the Help action.

It can help to Attack. It does not need to be able to Attack, because that rule in the Combat chapter isn't about helping with ability checks.

It can help to perform a task that requires an ability check. Because of the more specific rule in the chapter on Ability Checks, the familiar would need to be able to perform the task on their own.

hth
;)

Tectorman

2016-09-20, 08:48 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm having trouble seeing the confusion on this one. When I read it, I thought, "Really? SA about that? Booooring."

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list..."

That seems clear enough to me. Your MS spells are (for you) bard spells, so you can swap them out, but you have to replace them with bard spells, and it's explicitly spells "from the bard spell list." I don't really see how there's any other reading of the text, especially since the parallel EK description says, "The new spell (...) must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level." So when they want those slots to be permanently flexible, they come right out and say it.

The confusion comes from the explicit meaning (which is exactly as you say) being at odds with the apparent intention behind being able to switch out your spells. Part of that apparent intention is to give players a break when they select their Bard character's spells known. The player is not omniscient and cannot see the future, so sometimes he will select a spell thinking that he'll get a certain amount of utility out of that choice when, lo and behold, it turned out to not be as useful. Hey, we don't win them all. So the player is allowed to switch out a spell if he needs to.

Well, players don't suddenly become all-knowing and incapable of error just because the spell they're selecting comes from Magical Secrets rather than their normal spell list. So if we're giving them a break for their normal spells, we should give them a break here, as well.

Taking those two sections of the Bard class and reading them the way the Sage has done instead simultaneously tells us "So you didn't make the best spell choice? No problem, we can fix that" and "So you didn't make the best spell choice? Welp, sucks to be you! That'll teach you to not be all-knowing! *Raise middle finger*". It's very incongruous.

Erys

2016-09-20, 09:08 PM

The confusion comes from the explicit meaning (which is exactly as you say) being at odds with the apparent intention behind being able to switch out your spells. Part of that apparent intention is to give players a break when they select their Bard character's spells known. The player is not omniscient and cannot see the future, so sometimes he will select a spell thinking that he'll get a certain amount of utility out of that choice when, lo and behold, it turned out to not be as useful. Hey, we don't win them all. So the player is allowed to switch out a spell if he needs to.

Well, players don't suddenly become all-knowing and incapable of error just because the spell they're selecting comes from Magical Secrets rather than their normal spell list. So if we're giving them a break for their normal spells, we should give them a break here, as well.

Taking those two sections of the Bard class and reading them the way the Sage has done instead simultaneously tells us "So you didn't make the best spell choice? No problem, we can fix that" and "So you didn't make the best spell choice? Welp, sucks to be you! That'll teach you to not be all-knowing! *Raise middle finger*". It's very incongruous.

I don't think Magical Secrets are supposed to be about making the "best choice"; it seems the intent has always been about allowing non-bard spells to become bard spells.

If you could just change out a Magic Secret like it was any other bard spell, but still have access to any list- you came munchkin the system big time. For example, if you took Lore Bard and at 6th grabbed a Fireball as one of your Magical Secrets, if this rule wasn't in play, a person can then change the Fireball to Banish at 7th, then at 9th it could morph into Swift Quiver.

Definitely not the intention of Magical Secrets.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-09-20, 09:11 PM

But we shouldn't begrudge bards some additional versatility. It's what sets them apart from sorcerers, after all.

R.Shackleford

2016-09-20, 10:05 PM

Seems clear to me, but I'm a newbie.

(a) Specific rules trump general rules.

(b) The chapter on Combat gives you two alternative ways you can use the Help action (newbs can't post links) in combat: You can use it for an ability check. Or you can use the Help action to make someone else's attack more effective.

(c) The chapter on Ability Checks (newbs can't post links) says that folks can work together (implied: "work together on ability checks). It then adds a more specific ruling when Helping on an ability check: You have to be able to perform the action yourself, to Help with an ability check. It says nothing about helping an Attack action. The chapter has nothing to do with Attack actions.

(d) Find Familiar (newbs can't post links) allows the familiar to take any action in combat, except Attack. There is no restriction on it taking the Help action. It can take the Help action.

It can take either alternative of the Help action.

It can help to Attack. It does not need to be able to Attack, because that rule in the Combat chapter isn't about helping with ability checks.

It can help to perform a task that requires an ability check. Because of the more specific rule in the chapter on Ability Checks, the familiar would need to be able to perform the task on their own.

hth
;)

Hey now, here on giantitp we don't take kindly to people who don't try to read the rules all convaluted and mix two sections of the rules up on purpose just for the sake of making something support our ideas!

:smallbiggrin:

Malifice

2016-09-21, 01:39 AM

1) Owls have 60' spd and Flyby ability. It can fly in, distract, fly out, thereby staying mostly out of harms way. Also, if I kill the creature the same round, I again keep it from harm.

The creature readies an attack to attack the Owl if it enters its reach, or you if your turn starts, whichever comes first. The DM does not tell you what this readied action is. Its just watching you both warily.

Also, remember - you have to explain what the distracting action is, and how it works. Not sure that the critter is gonna fall for the same trick multiple times.

2) Yes, it will still die often. But it will also help often. Even casting it once a day, I expect to get enough value.

It'd be slapped out of the air in the first round or two of the first of 6-8 encounters in my games.

YMMV.

I have no shield. (Swashbuckler/Sorcerer)

Dip 2 levels of Paladin and get one. Also adds smite to your DPR.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-21, 02:56 AM

True, but you need 3 EK for the feature that lets you recall a bonded weapon as a bonus action if you want to have "endless" daggers for throwing without having some kind of returning magic weapon. So since you need 3 EK you might as well take up Find Familiar as your one non-Abjuration/Evocation 1st level spell.

Variant Human + Ritual Caster(Wizard)+ Arcane Trickster + Shortbow + Retrieve your arrows after the fight. Why are you using the weakest ranged weapon to Sneak Attack? Shouldn't said EK be using a longbow? +1 bows aren't that hard to get & silvered arrows are fairly easy to find/buy.

A high elf starts with longbow prof+ a Cantrip of your choice + Darkvision but can't pick up RC(Wiz) til 4.

tkuremento

2016-09-21, 06:47 AM

Variant Human + Ritual Caster(Wizard)+ Arcane Trickster + Shortbow + Retrieve your arrows after the fight. Why are you using the weakest ranged weapon to Sneak Attack? Shouldn't said EK be using a longbow? +1 bows aren't that hard to get & silvered arrows are fairly easy to find/buy.

A high elf starts with longbow prof+ a Cantrip of your choice + Darkvision but can't pick up RC(Wiz) til 4.

Who said I was optimizing? It was a cool concept. There is an item in Terraria called the Magic Dagger that is one dagger that you "throw" and it creates an magic version of it. There is also an enchantment in Pathfinder that lets you go through the motions of throwing a weapon and then throws a duplicate version instead.
Edit: Also no longbow if you choose a small race :P

odigity

2016-09-21, 06:59 AM

The creature readies an attack to attack the Owl if it enters its reach, or you if your turn starts, whichever comes first. The DM does not tell you what this readied action is. Its just watching you both warily.

That's fine. In that case, they kill my owl rather than focusing on me, and then I kill them. Such is the price for foolishly focusing on the lesser threat. 10gp later, my Owl and I can laugh (hoot?) about it together.

Also, remember - you have to explain what the distracting action is, and how it works. Not sure that the critter is gonna fall for the same trick multiple times.

There's nothing in the rules compelling a player to provide colorful description, nor is there anything in the rules saying the Help action stops working after the first use.

I feel like you are going out of your way to argue with me because you're offended at the idea of using an Owl to gain advantage in combat, which, if that's the case, your argument is with Crawford, not me.

Gwendol

2016-09-21, 07:18 AM

I don't think Magical Secrets are supposed to be about making the "best choice"; it seems the intent has always been about allowing non-bard spells to become bard spells.

If you could just change out a Magic Secret like it was any other bard spell, but still have access to any list- you came munchkin the system big time. For example, if you took Lore Bard and at 6th grabbed a Fireball as one of your Magical Secrets, if this rule wasn't in play, a person can then change the Fireball to Banish at 7th, then at 9th it could morph into Swift Quiver.

Definitely not the intention of Magical Secrets.

Uh? That doesn't follow the "fluff" at all. Magical secrets are a way to broaden the repertoire, but the way a bard learn the secrets isn't described as different from the regular bard spells. At least, the bard should be able to change a magical secret if he gets the opportunity to learn a new.
It looks like an oversight to me.

smcmike

2016-09-21, 07:42 AM

Gwendol

2016-09-21, 08:46 AM

My point is that the rule is neither here nor there. You can change the magical secret, but only to a spell on the original bard list?

smcmike

2016-09-21, 08:56 AM

My point is that the rule is neither here nor there. You can change the magical secret, but only to a spell on the original bard list?

Yeah, I don't see the problem. The assumption is that you probably wouldn't pick a magical secret to retrain.

Malifice

2016-09-21, 09:32 AM

That's fine. In that case, they kill my owl rather than focusing on me, and then I kill them. Such is the price for foolishly focusing on the lesser threat. 10gp later, my Owl and I can laugh (hoot?) about it together.

Not with Ritual caster feat. Plus, it takes an hour to get him back.

Maybe your DM doesnt time limit his quests and allows 1 hour breaks/ Short rests at will, but thats just poor DMing.

There's nothing in the rules compelling a player to provide colorful description, nor is there anything in the rules saying the Help action stops working after the first use.

Its entirely reasonable for a DM to ask you 'what' is the help action going to be, and ruling that it doesnt work, it works, or calling for some kind of check for it to work.

You migh be able to convince a critter to look over its shoulder the once with a trick, but he;s unlikely to fall for it a second time.

And yes, this is how 5E works.

I feel like you are going out of your way to argue with me because you're offended at the idea of using an Owl to gain advantage in combat, which, if that's the case, your argument is with Crawford, not me.

No, I have nothing wrong with it. I just dont see it as that strong.

Id first ask how is it doing so (ask for the player to describe what the owl is doing exactly - like fly into the creatures face momentarily distracting it or whatever). Id generally let it work also (as long as the descriptions were colorful).

Id also have Owls stop appearing if the caster just kept sending them to their deaths. The spirits get offended. Or maybe get a little upitty and have their own minds about whats going on.

In a white room it looks OK, but any good DM is going to make it a lot less appealing that it appears.

RickAllison

2016-09-21, 09:36 AM

My point is that the rule is neither here nor there. You can change the magical secret, but only to a spell on the original bard list?

Additionally, you could switch a bard spell for a Magical Secrets spell you switched out earlier. So one could pick a Magical Secrets that is less useful when first chosen and instead have a more level-appropriate spell, then take it back at a later point.

EDIT: Malifice, I think the distraction is perfectly fine when you consider these bearing down on the target's eyes:

http://thepoodleanddogblog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451580669e20120a764b806970b-pi

SharkForce

2016-09-21, 09:53 AM

The creature readies an attack to attack the Owl if it enters its reach, or you if your turn starts, whichever comes first. The DM does not tell you what this readied action is. Its just watching you both warily.

Also, remember - you have to explain what the distracting action is, and how it works. Not sure that the critter is gonna fall for the same trick multiple times.

It'd be slapped out of the air in the first round or two of the first of 6-8 encounters in my games.

YMMV.

Dip 2 levels of Paladin and get one. Also adds smite to your DPR.

their readied action fails. you can't ready 2 actions, only one. you get one trigger (the next enemy to come next to me is fine. when one of those two enemies comes next to me is fine. when the owl comes next to me or that guy's turn starts, nope). not two or more. not that it's necessarily a bad thing for an enemy to give up their entire turn for a ready action which is much less valuable, particularly since they're telegraphing they readied an action and you can just pick another target for that round.

and no, things don't automatically get less distracting just because it happened once. that's like saying if i'm standing next to you while you're reading this, and i'm shouting in your ear, it's only distracting for the very first time, and after that it stops bothering you entirely. you might get used to it eventually. probably not in any reasonable amount of time, probably not if i'm not doing it constantly, and almost definitely not within the time span of a single battle.

tkuremento

2016-09-21, 09:57 AM

Its entirely reasonable for a DM to ask you 'what' is the help action going to be, and ruling that it doesnt work, it works, or calling for some kind of check for it to work.

In what regards? That is not RAW at all, that is houseruling at best.

R.Shackleford

2016-09-21, 09:58 AM

The creature readies an attack to attack the Owl if it enters its reach, or you if your turn starts, whichever comes first. The DM does not tell you what this readied action is. Its just watching you both warily.

Also, remember - you have to explain what the distracting action is, and how it works. Not sure that the critter is gonna fall for the same trick multiple times.

It'd be slapped out of the air in the first round or two of the first of 6-8 encounters in my games.

YMMV.

Dip 2 levels of Paladin and get one. Also adds smite to your DPR.

The last time a DM said I needed to roleplay my rollplay, I told him that I spit in the mouth of the cultist in order to use the Help action in combat (the cultists was chanting a spell).

We learned the DM is very squeamish about that sort of thing.

But, by the rules, there are no forced roleplay rules in 5e. The game is a rollplaying game whose roleplaying comes from the players/DM and not from the rules.

If there was... And this could be awesome... I would see spells having specific strings of words a player must say in certain ways.

Charm Person
Verbal (Sexy): Hey sweetie, why don't you ____
Verbal (Friendly): Yo' buddy old friend, why don't you ___

And make it where the player has to say the start of a specific sentence based on what they are doing (and roleplay it) and finish the sentence with what they want the person to do...

Fireball
Verbal (Excited): Burst forth from the plane of fire, Fireball!

(Essentially, Final Fantasy Tactics)

Erys

2016-09-21, 09:58 AM

Uh? That doesn't follow the "fluff" at all. Magical secrets are a way to broaden the repertoire, but the way a bard learn the secrets isn't described as different from the regular bard spells. At least, the bard should be able to change a magical secret if he gets the opportunity to learn a new.
It looks like an oversight to me.

Well, fluff is not always 100% in line with the crunch; see the Mirror Image debacle for proof. :smallbiggrin:

That said, between the easiness of munchkin abuse and the fact that the ability does say "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you..." the ruling seems in line with the original intent.

It does make sense too, at least to me, the bard no longer studies for his spells (like he did waaaaaay back in the day), he is a natural caster. Magical Secrets is him seeing/discovering outside spell knowledge and adapting it to his way of casting. But when he figures his own way to invoke a lightning bolt, two levels later he shouldn't be able to change that out to Banish simply on a whim. Especially since Lightning bolt would still be a Bard spell and he could re-grab it later.

Malifice

2016-09-21, 10:27 AM

their readied action fails. you can't ready 2 actions, only one.

I readied one action. The attack action specifically.

My triggerin conditions was just rather detailed. You can specify anything as a trigger.

Ill ready [the attack action] if [the barbarian enters my square against him, or the wizard next to me starts casting or moves more than 2 feet from where he is now against him, or someone says 'bilpdoop', or it starts raining, or the halfling farts - against the nearest target to me at that time; whatever comes first]

Malifice

2016-09-21, 10:31 AM

But, by the rules, there are no forced roleplay rules in 5e. The game is a rollplaying game whose roleplaying comes from the players/DM and not from the rules.

Yeah. And as a roleplaying game, with an expectation of 'ask your DM' and 'describe your action' then its fair to assume that DMs are going to ask you what you're doing and how.

I hate when Players tell me they're searching the room and then roll perception.

I always ask 'how' and 'what' are you searching. Tell me. Interact with the world.

'I walk over to the bookcase, sticking to the wall with my sword drawn. As I approach it Ill carefully scan the roof in case any more of those darkmantles are about, and glance back over my shoulder at the Cleric who is covering me with his crossbow. Once I get there, Ill carefully study the text of the books without touching them to see if I can identify any of the titles'.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-09-21, 10:40 AM

My triggerin conditions was just rather detailed. You can specify anything as a trigger.

Ill ready [the attack action] if [the barbarian enters my square against him, or the wizard next to me starts casting or moves more than 2 feet from where he is now against him, or someone says 'bilpdoop', or it starts raining, or the halfling farts - against the nearest target to me at that time; whatever comes first]

That's not how readying actions works. You choose one specific action and one specific trigger. What you have here are five triggers and an incomplete action.

SharkForce

2016-09-21, 10:47 AM

I readied one action. The attack action specifically.

My triggerin conditions was just rather detailed. You can specify anything as a trigger.

Ill ready [the attack action] if [the barbarian enters my square against him, or the wizard next to me starts casting or moves more than 2 feet from where he is now against him, or someone says 'bilpdoop', or it starts raining, or the halfling farts - against the nearest target to me at that time; whatever comes first]

that would be a bunch of different ready actions.

let's grab a few quotes from the SRD (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Ready_Action), shall we?

"First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction" (not "circumstances", just one circumstance)

"When the trigger occurs..." (not "one of the triggers", because you only get one).

ready an action gives you one trigger. not two. not ten. not as many as you want. one.

Yeah. And as a roleplaying game, with an expectation of 'ask your DM' and 'describe your action' then its fair to assume that DMs are going to ask you what you're doing and how.

I hate when Players tell me they're searching the room and then roll perception.

I always ask 'how' and 'what' are you searching. Tell me. Interact with the world.

'I walk over to the bookcase, sticking to the wall with my sword drawn. As I approach it Ill carefully scan the roof in case any more of those darkmantles are about, and glance back over my shoulder at the Cleric who is covering me with his crossbow. Once I get there, Ill carefully study the text of the books without touching them to see if I can identify any of the titles'.

oh goody, i love getting trolled by the DM that way. "LOL, you didn't say you were checking for traps on the floor first, take a spear to the groin, trolololololol".

yeah, no thanks. when i say i'm searching the room, that IS an interaction with the world. the WHAT i am interacting with is the damn room. the HOW is that i am searching it, and unless i specify i'm doing something weird or unusual (for example, trying to leave no trace), i am searching it in the usual way that should reasonably be expected. by looking behind, under, and around things, poking and prodding stuff, movign things that obstruct my vision out of the way, etc. i no more need to specify that i am searching by doing that than i need to specify that i am speaking by forcing air to exit my lungs through my throat and manipulating it with my vocal cords, and altering the position of my lips and tongue.

Gwendol

2016-09-21, 10:56 AM

Yeah, I don't see the problem. The assumption is that you probably wouldn't pick a magical secret to retrain.

But that's what the Sage says is allowed!

lunaticfringe

2016-09-21, 10:56 AM

Edit: Also no longbow if you choose a small race :P

My bad, Lightfoot Halfling is my favorite Rogueing Race. Nothing beats being able to Hide behind like everyone else as a bonus action! Sooo much fun.

Gwendol

2016-09-21, 10:59 AM

Well, fluff is not always 100% in line with the crunch; see the Mirror Image debacle for proof. :smallbiggrin:

That said, between the easiness of munchkin abuse and the fact that the ability does say "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you..." the ruling seems in line with the original intent.

It does make sense too, at least to me, the bard no longer studies for his spells (like he did waaaaaay back in the day), he is a natural caster. Magical Secrets is him seeing/discovering outside spell knowledge and adapting it to his way of casting. But when he figures his own way to invoke a lightning bolt, two levels later he shouldn't be able to change that out to Banish simply on a whim. Especially since Lightning bolt would still be a Bard spell and he could re-grab it later.

I'm ok with the RAW, but the RAI doesn't make much sende to me.
Your last part can't be right though. A magical secret (taken from another class spell list) is never on the bard spell list (even if it is a bard spell for you) and so can't be retrained if switched out.

odigity

2016-09-21, 11:02 AM

But, by the rules, there are no forced roleplay rules in 5e. The game is a rollplaying game whose roleplaying comes from the players/DM and not from the rules.

If there was... And this could be awesome... I would see spells having specific strings of words a player must say in certain ways.

Charm Person
Verbal (Sexy): Hey sweetie, why don't you ____
Verbal (Friendly): Yo' buddy old friend, why don't you ___

And make it where the player has to say the start of a specific sentence based on what they are doing (and roleplay it) and finish the sentence with what they want the person to do...

Fireball
Verbal (Excited): Burst forth from the plane of fire, Fireball!

(Essentially, Final Fantasy Tactics)

That sounds fun.

Vogonjeltz

2016-09-21, 11:03 AM

Specifically, it says:

"Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who’s leading the effort—or the one with the highest ability modifier—can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action.

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone."

Right, that's discussing ability checks, which is different than providing help on attacks. I think the confusion comes from people reading a sentence about one specific topic and thinking it applies to everything, when it doesn't.

It's more like the example provided: You can only help someone at lockpicking if you're proficient with lockpicks (and thus lockpicking).

And the example given for the other use of help is that they help by distracting or feinting or whatever. Which isn't an ability check at all.

You can't do something AT ALL, so you can't team up with someone to help do it AT ALL.

The important distinction is to note what the familiar is actually doing. They aren't attacking, they're distracting the opponent and that distraction is providing aid to the actual attacker. (Qzotia has a much more thorough differentiation)

So you have to say "These aren't the *cough* consilium *cough* druids you are looking for" and pretend it was an expletive? Or can the mystic words be something like "Would you kindly"? This ruling is annoying.

Two possibilities:

1) Magic words are basically just words, subjects (or bystanders) who don't actually know the magic might just think it's another language.

Imagine someone walking up to you, speaking some words, then switching to English, or whatever the native language is, and making a request. The assumption would be that they had tried to ask the same thing in another language. There's no real 'tell'.

2) Be an Enchanter at level 14 where you can make them forget they were just charmed into doing this thing or a Sorcerer at level 3 where you can remove the verbal component entirely and just get to the request.

Given that the request has to be reasonable, it's plausible that the outcome would be a) Fail saving throw, do the thing thinking it was reasonable or b) succeed at saving throw, but either choose to do the reasonably worded thing or refuse thinking it was just another request.

smcmike

2016-09-21, 11:05 AM

But that's what the Sage says is allowed!

Sure, allowed, but unlikely to happen. You're also allowed to choose bard cantrips with magical secrets. That would be dumb, though.

Malifice

2016-09-21, 11:21 AM

oh goody, i love getting trolled by the DM that way. "LOL, you didn't say you were checking for traps on the floor first, take a spear to the groin, trolololololol".

yeah, no thanks. when i say i'm searching the room, that IS an interaction with the world. the WHAT i am interacting with is the damn room. the HOW is that i am searching it, and unless i specify i'm doing something weird or unusual (for example, trying to leave no trace), i am searching it in the usual way that should reasonably be expected. by looking behind, under, and around things, poking and prodding stuff, movign things that obstruct my vision out of the way, etc. i no more need to specify that i am searching by doing that than i need to specify that i am speaking by forcing air to exit my lungs through my throat and manipulating it with my vocal cords, and altering the position of my lips and tongue.

We've already established long ago that we play different games.

That's not how readying actions works. You choose one specific action and one specific trigger. What you have here are five triggers and an incomplete action.

Nah.

So you're saying you cant ready to attack the first of the horde of six goblins who rush through the door?

You have to pick one specific goblin?

Your trigger can be as specific as you like. A cat falling from the roof, while its raining and the hobbit sings a love ballad is a circumstance.

Its highly unlikely to occur, but if thats the trigger for when you shoot, and all those things are percievable to you, then thats when you shoot.

SharkForce

2016-09-21, 11:40 AM

So you're saying you cant ready to attack the first of the horde of six goblins who rush through the door?

You have to pick one specific goblin?

Your trigger can be as specific as you like. A cat falling from the roof, while its raining and the hobbit sings a love ballad is a circumstance.

Its highly unlikely to occur, but if thats the trigger for when you shoot, and all those things are percievable to you, then thats when you shoot.

that's fine.

but a cat falling from the roof OR it's raining OR the hobbit sings a love ballad would be three circumstances. the minute you put in "or" you are creating more than one circumstance. so, you can attack the first enemy to come up to you. you can even attack *an* enemy that comes up to you, and decide which one you want to attack as they come up to you (rules do say you can choose to not take your action and don't say that your trigger is lost if you do, though obviously a specific trigger could be lost if you choose not to take it, so "i ready an attack against an enemy that comes next to me" means you can choose to use it on the third or fourth enemy... though with the caveat that once you pass on an opportunity it is gone and you can't retroactively take that chance after you found out there isn't going to be a third or fourth enemy). but you can't ready an attack against an enemy that comes up to you OR if the music starts playing. it's one or the other.

Erys

2016-09-21, 12:19 PM

tkuremento

2016-09-21, 01:09 PM

The last time a DM said I needed to roleplay my rollplay, I told him that I spit in the mouth of the cultist in order to use the Help action in combat (the cultists was chanting a spell).

We learned the DM is very squeamish about that sort of thing.

But, by the rules, there are no forced roleplay rules in 5e. The game is a rollplaying game whose roleplaying comes from the players/DM and not from the rules.

If there was... And this could be awesome... I would see spells having specific strings of words a player must say in certain ways.

Charm Person
Verbal (Sexy): Hey sweetie, why don't you ____
Verbal (Friendly): Yo' buddy old friend, why don't you ___

And make it where the player has to say the start of a specific sentence based on what they are doing (and roleplay it) and finish the sentence with what they want the person to do...

Fireball
Verbal (Excited): Burst forth from the plane of fire, Fireball!

(Essentially, Final Fantasy Tactics)

Not entirely what you are saying but not too dissimilar, Pathfinder had a Words of Power thing where you basically made custom spells. There are a lot of gimmicks though where you could add low level fire damage to all damaging spells and it would empower the entire spell from your fire evoker blast optimization. Or you could take on a low level illusion word to get +1 caster level for the entire spell even though the majority of it isn't illusion cause your class gives +1 caster to illusion spells or whatever.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-21, 01:15 PM

Oh ****!. Best Verbal component for the Shield spell and perhaps any spell of all time. Compliments of my last party's Wizard.

Gwendol

2016-09-21, 01:34 PM

According to this Sage Advice, it is on the bard list (for that individual bard) and can be retained (for another bard spell).

Honestly though, I feel where you are coming from; I would have assumed Magical Secrets be set in stone selections.

Oh, I thought you were talking about switching out a magical secret spell for a bard spell, then taking that magical secret back in exchange for another bard spell known.

Maybe that was suggested by someone else in the thread?

R.Shackleford

2016-09-21, 02:53 PM

Yeah. And as a roleplaying game, with an expectation of 'ask your DM' and 'describe your action' then its fair to assume that DMs are going to ask you what you're doing and how.

I hate when Players tell me they're searching the room and then roll perception.

I always ask 'how' and 'what' are you searching. Tell me. Interact with the world.

'I walk over to the bookcase, sticking to the wall with my sword drawn. As I approach it Ill carefully scan the roof in case any more of those darkmantles are about, and glance back over my shoulder at the Cleric who is covering me with his crossbow. Once I get there, Ill carefully study the text of the books without touching them to see if I can identify any of the titles'.

You can hate it all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't exactly what the mechanics of the game is or is not.

The reason for this is because not everyone can or wants to roleplay every little thing. Having players roleplay searching every single room is exhausting and slows down the game and is the wrong way to introduce roleplaying into a game for many people.

Quick bursts of roleplaying (like actually having verbal components be a roleplaying aspect... hell, somatic components could be too) would work right along with the game since you already have to say "I cast fireball", it would just be replaced with "blast forth fires of gallion, fireball".

RickAllison

2016-09-21, 03:12 PM

I'm ok with the RAW, but the RAI doesn't make much sende to me.
Your last part can't be right though. A magical secret (taken from another class spell list) is never on the bard spell list (even if it is a bard spell for you) and so can't be retrained if switched out.

True, true on the last part. I think the intention behind it makes perfect sense, though, that your PC has learned to adapt these spells to their casting style. By extension, though, it should theoretically be possible for sufficiently high-level Bards to exchange this knowledge with other bards just as wizards might.

One of my favorite alternate rewards for PCs is adding other spells to their list through special teaching. A cleric of Deneir could grant aid to the Great Temple of Mielikki against a horde of drow, who by way of thanks imparts some knowledge of nature spells to the curious cleric. A sorcerer who helps the dwarven craftmages could be taught how manufacture items through magic (Fabricate, maybe added as a spell known that can't be changed). In such an environment, Bards are unique because they get to pick and choose what they want, whereas others' spells are up to my caprice.

odigity

2016-09-21, 03:49 PM

Oh ****!. Best Verbal component for the Shield spell and perhaps any spell of all time. Compliments of my last party's Wizard.

I'm going to use this.

quinron

2016-09-21, 04:08 PM

Specter

2016-09-21, 04:10 PM

The last time a DM said I needed to roleplay my rollplay, I told him that I spit in the mouth of the cultist in order to use the Help action in combat (the cultists was chanting a spell).

We learned the DM is very squeamish about that sort of thing.

But, by the rules, there are no forced roleplay rules in 5e. The game is a rollplaying game whose roleplaying comes from the players/DM and not from the rules.

If there was... And this could be awesome... I would see spells having specific strings of words a player must say in certain ways.

Charm Person
Verbal (Sexy): Hey sweetie, why don't you ____
Verbal (Friendly): Yo' buddy old friend, why don't you ___

And make it where the player has to say the start of a specific sentence based on what they are doing (and roleplay it) and finish the sentence with what they want the person to do...

Fireball
Verbal (Excited): Burst forth from the plane of fire, Fireball!

(Essentially, Final Fantasy Tactics)

I do this with my Devil's Tongue Tiefling. All spells have specific verbal components, so that when I say some words the DM already knows what spell I'm casting.

Vicious Mockery: (insults about appearance)
Charm Person: Meow... (like a cat begging for food)
Bane: HELL IS HEEEEERE
Hypnotic Pattern: Behold the rainbow!
Enthrall: I need you to imagine (describe scene)...
Suggestion: OR, you could (insert suggestion)...

It's a lot of fun to plan for these things.

Tectorman

2016-09-21, 10:52 PM

On the topic of Magical Secrets, I don't see why they didn't just include the wording from the EK and AT spells known that lets you swap out a "miscellaneous" spell, but only for one you could cast at the level you got the initial one.

Of course, I'm still waiting for the official ruling that confirms EKs and ATs can swap out the miscellaneous spells they get at 3rd level the same way they can swap out the higher-level ones.

Exactly this. Treating the phrasing of the Bard's spellcasting like this allows you to prevent whatever "take lower, trade higher" shenanigans that players are worried about without also shafting the Bard's player for not seeing into the future.

Really, that's my grievance with this ruling. Players cannot know ahead of time whether their spell selections, from whatever source, will be as useful as predicted. And it is unrealistic to expect them to. So if you're going to give them an out for ill-considered choices, give them an out for ill-considered choices.

This just seems like petty "gotcha-ness".

Malifice

2016-09-21, 11:23 PM

but a cat falling from the roof OR it's raining OR the hobbit sings a love ballad would be three circumstances.

No, its not.

Its no different to 'I call out for surrender, and then ready an attack with my bow if the barbarian fails to throw down his weapon before his next turn ends, or if the Wizard next to him starts casting a spell, whichever (if any) comes first'

There is nothing expressly stopping contingent circumstances.

Both are percievable.

How about 'I ready an attack if anyone or anything hostile to me enters my threatened area or attempts to attack me from it'

Disallowing that is madness.

SharkForce

2016-09-21, 11:47 PM

one. circumstance. not two. not three. not as many as you want.

one.

you can ready an action for someone attacking you. you can't ready an action for someone attacking you OR doing something else you don't like. that would be 2 circumstances.

often, you can cover multiple circumstances with a single one. for example, "if they haven't surrendered before my next turn" would cover your wizard and barbarian circumstance (and additional ones beyond that, such as the wizard trying to run away on foot). nevertheless, it must be one circumstance.

Malifice

2016-09-21, 11:56 PM

one. circumstance. not two. not three. not as many as you want.

one.

It is one circumstance.

you can ready an action for someone attacking you. you can't ready an action for someone attacking you OR doing something else you don't like. that would be 2 circumstances.

No its not.

You can ready an attack if a creature moves or it casts a spell.

They are perceptable triggers for an attack.

1) 'DM, if the wizard does anything else other than surrender on his turn, Ill shoot him in the face'

2) DM, if the wizard moves or casts a spell on his turn, ill shoot him in the face'.

You would allow 1, but disallow 2, even though 1 covers an infinite number of triggers, while 2 only covers 2 possible scenarios.

Semantic madness that produces an absurd result. Typical of how you interpret RAW I must add.

often, you can cover multiple circumstances with a single one.for example, "if they haven't surrendered before my next turn" would cover your wizard and barbarian circumstance (and additional ones beyond that, such as the wizard trying to run away on foot). nevertheless, it must be one circumstance.

So now you're saying it can be done, but its just a question of semantics or language?

Thats plainly ridiculous.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-22, 12:01 AM

No, its not.

Its no different to 'I call out for surrender, and then ready an attack with my bow if the barbarian fails to throw down his weapon before his next turn ends, or if the Wizard next to him starts casting a spell, whichever (if any) comes first'

If I was you DM I'd disallow your ready actions BECAUSE of your weird specificity. Make them Broader and no one would have a problem. It's off-putting, be more Succinct.

Malifice

2016-09-22, 12:04 AM

If I was you DM I'd disallow your ready actions BECAUSE of your weird specificity. Make them Broader and no one would have a problem. It's off-putting, be more Succinct.

So you would disallow: 'If he says the words cat OR dog (two triggers), I shoot him in the face!' on account of being too specific.

But you would allow: 'If he speaks any word I recognise (thousands of triggers), I shoot him in the face!' because its more general.

And you would also allow: 'If he speaks the word 'cat' (one trigger) I shoot him in the face!' because its just the one trigger?

For mine, as long as the circumstances are able to be percieved, its a trigger.

I can sit here in my office with a Glock 9mm, ready to shoot the first red haried, purple skinned, 3 foot tall or under, 4 armed creature that walks in the door, OR the first Alien from the move Alien to do so, UNLESS i hear something behind me, and can positively identify it as a Predator from the movie Predator, in which case I'll shoot it instead.

Which is just a specific way of saying 'I shoot the first hostile creature I detect'.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-22, 12:22 AM

Its no different to 'I call out for surrender, and then ready an attack with my bow if the barbarian fails to throw down his weapon before his next turn ends, or if the Wizard next to him starts casting a spell, whichever (if any) comes first'

Ready Attack Action:
If my allies don't join my surrender, then I will attack with my Bow.

Boom! Same thing, easy-peasy Lemon Squeezey. Broad, simple, Succinct while still fulfilling the above parameters. Do That! And yes DMs get petty, duh.

RickAllison

2016-09-22, 12:47 AM

Instead of thinking of it as DM pettiness, consider how the PC is actually seeing it. They can either A) watch for a specific occurrence, ensuring that they don't accidentally trip it by looking for too many things, or B) watch more broadly. The former is great for targeting effects, ensuring that if your action is used, it triggers where you want it to. The latter gives you less control (say "I attack when I see a hostile action". You could hit the Mage trying to cast a spell, or you could hit his familiar who is taking the Help action), but is far more reliable.

As an example, let's look at a one on one fight vs a Bladesinger. You could be on the lookout for his sword subtly curving to actually hit rather than dance, you could look for his open hand to raise for a spell, or you could say "Screw it," and just look for any twitch. Whatever your circumstance is, you are keyed into that one thing. You can focus on one small thing to be discerning or another, focus on one character, or focus on an entire scene. Whatever you decide, you have ceded control over what is the ultimate triggering action when you make it more generic.

pwykersotz

2016-09-22, 12:58 AM

So you would disallow: 'If he says the words cat OR dog (two triggers), I shoot him in the face!' on account of being too specific.

But you would allow: 'If he speaks any word I recognise (thousands of triggers), I shoot him in the face!' because its more general.

And you would also allow: 'If he speaks the word 'cat' (one trigger) I shoot him in the face!' because its just the one trigger?

For mine, as long as the circumstances are able to be percieved, its a trigger.

I can sit here in my office with a Glock 9mm, ready to shoot the first red haried, purple skinned, 3 foot tall or under, 4 armed creature that walks in the door, OR the first Alien from the move Alien to do so, UNLESS i hear something behind me, and can positively identify it as a Predator from the movie Predator, in which case I'll shoot it instead.

Which is just a specific way of saying 'I shoot the first hostile creature I detect'.

I view it as a hair trigger action. The kind of thing that has to be a little vague because you're doing it pretty much instantaneously. "I shoot the next person to walk through that door" is easier to execute than "I shoot the next blonde man who walks through that door" which is easier than "I shoot the next blonde man or brunette woman (whichever comes first) who walks through that door". If you add too many conditional statements, the ready turns into a spreadsheet filter. For my games, I require clarity. If I can instantly deduce what you are going to shoot, it's good, conditional statements or no. If I have to parse it, you need to change it.

Malifice

2016-09-22, 01:43 AM

I view it as a hair trigger action. The kind of thing that has to be a little vague because you're doing it pretty much instantaneously. "I shoot the next person to walk through that door" is easier to execute than "I shoot the next blonde man who walks through that door" which is easier than "I shoot the next blonde man or brunette woman (whichever comes first) who walks through that door". If you add too many conditional statements, the ready turns into a spreadsheet filter. For my games, I require clarity. If I can instantly deduce what you are going to shoot, it's good, conditional statements or no. If I have to parse it, you need to change it.

Which leads back to the original example.

'I belt the owl if it enters my reach, or if the owl doesnt enter my reach by the end of its turn, its master.'

Sounds like a perfectly clear and appropriate use of the ready action to me.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-22, 02:14 AM

First. What?

That is 2 triggers my friend You are attacking the Owl if it Does enter your Reach & If it doesn't. You are misusing OR, which DON'T USE OR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Also RAW you are formulating it incorrectly, so as DM I deem it Illegal. Rules Lawyering, Perhaps.

Trigger Statement -> Reaction

If the dog growls me, I will kick it.

If you use this format, you won't have problems.

Trigger Statement -> Reaction

Malifice

2016-09-22, 02:29 AM

That is 2 triggers my friend

If thats two triggers, then 'attacking the first of the six goblins that come through the door' is six triggers and 'Attacking the first person in this room to say a word in the english language' is [(number of people in room) x (number of words in the english language)] number of triggers.

You are attacking the Owl if it Does enter your Reach & If it doesn't.

Yeah. Im watching the Owl carefully while I fight its master, preparing to attack it. If it holds back (doesnt move on its turn) then I instead attack its master at the last second (assuming I still can and the master hasnt run away).

Would you have a problem with:

'I attack whichever Goblin wins the wrestling match?'

What about:

If Goblin A wins the wrestling match, I attack him. If his turn ends, and he hasnt won the wrestling match and Goblin B does, I attack him instead'.

For some absurd reason (semantics mainly) you seem to be OK allowing the first readied action, but forbid the second one despite them being identical.

You are misusing OR, which DON'T USE OR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Also RAW you are formulating it incorrectly, so as DM I deem it Illegal. Rules Lawyering, Perhaps.

Its not 'rules lawyering'. Its me stating a condition for an attack.

Youre the one rules lawyering by running a silly semantic argument.

lunaticfringe

2016-09-22, 03:57 AM

Youre the one rules lawyering by running a silly semantic argument.
Duh, if you misinterpreted my previous post I apologize. Yes I am Being a Rules Lawyer.

Yes it is Semantics, maybe if you weren't writing that part off you would have and easier time with it. You are purposely being overly vague & overly specific when it suits your argument because you don't want to follow the simple and easier format. The problem with communication is that You know what you mean, we do not.

The things you are trying to do could be valid uses of the Ready Action, you just suck at it explaining bro.

I attack statements imply you should just use the attack action. Are you in Combat? You are Passively watching 2 Goblins Fight. Has a Surprise Round Happened? Has Initiative been rolled? If no, you are still in Narrative Time and can't use Ready Actions. Ready Actions are used in Structured Time or Combat. In order to move from Narrative Time to Combat it must be determined whether one side is surprised if neither is Initiative is Rolled.

You are watching 2 Goblins wrestle and they haven't noticed you. You decide to wait and attack the Victor. You are still in Narrative Time & can't use the Ready Action. The Goblins finish their duel. As a DM I would have to decide if the goblin noticed you while wrestling if you are attempting to Hide you would roll a Stealth check with Advantage(so says me other DMs may not) and I would compare that to Victor's passive perception. Let's say he Didn't, you are free to use The Attack Action to Initiate Combat or Act in the Surprise Round which is the same thing. Surprise is moving from Narrative to Structured Time that's why Initiative is Rolled after it. Victor is Surprised you get a Free Attack Action. This determined by Skill & Ability Checks. You Can't Use Ready Action Outside of Combat.

Or

You are in Combat with the Goblins. Initiative has been rolled you are in Structured Time & Can use Ready Action. For Some reason the Goblins started attacking each other. You can use your Action on your Turn to Ready an Attack. If one Goblin triumphs over the other, I will attack the Victor. You can phrase that however you want as long as I understand. It is a valid use of Ready.

The way you are explaining or not explaining them is Confusing Dude.

There I don't care anymore. You seem like you have a grasp of the Rules you just can't explain **** for **** son. Use the simple format in the PHB cause you kinda suck at it otherwise, that is my personal advice.

I'm Done, don't bother responding to this post I ain't coming back to this thread.

Inglorin

2016-09-22, 07:40 AM

Which leads back to the original example.

'I belt the owl if it enters my reach, or if the owl doesnt enter my reach by the end of its turn, its master.'

Sounds like a perfectly clear and appropriate use of the ready action to me.

This wouldn't work at my table. "ending a turn" is not a precievable circumstance in my world. It is a game abstraction. Therefor: not trigger-able.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-09-22, 07:42 AM

"I kill the mage in his sleep next time we take a long rest, or, if that would change my alignment, just that damn owl."

tkuremento

2016-09-22, 07:43 AM

This wouldn't work at my table. "ending a turn" is not a precievable circumstance in my world. It is a game abstraction. Therefor: not trigger-able.

I sort of agree with that, I mean it isn't like everyone just stands there and waits for everyone else to go. I mean mechanically yea, but RP wise not at all. Therefore "end of turn" does seem a bit gimmicky, especially when you add it for a second trigger.

smcmike

2016-09-22, 07:45 AM

This wouldn't work at my table. "ending a turn" is not a precievable circumstance in my world. It is a game abstraction. Therefor: not trigger-able.

Yes, in addition to the problem with double triggers, triggers should be in-world concepts. This rules out "end of turn" failsafes.

Logosloki

2016-09-22, 08:19 AM

It's nice to see the clarification on Pact of the Blade. I've ruled it that way already because I thought it was inventive.

Monks using martial arts on arrows they throw back sounds awesome.

The section on spell effects was good food for thought and is something to take into consideration on some games. Personally I don't really mind if spellcasters use plain common for their verbal components because to me V, S and M are all about the style of the caster be it something they have cooked up themselves or drilled into them by a teacher.