Looking for good quality, well vetted, home-brew replacements. 3.5 D&D.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, I'm making ready to take over DMing for a large group, as our current campaign is getting into it's last 1-2 legs and were building to the final confrontation with the final boss of the enemy organization and the beings backing him, Orcus, who as it turns out is in play as a decoy for Atros or however the name is spelled. (Undead Elder Evil Guy/Thingy.).



Anyway, one of the things I'd decided on is that I want to steer the party away from playing bottom Tier classes as much as possible.

I have viable Homebrew replacements I like the look up that are well vetted for,

Barbarian,
Fighter,
Monk,
Paladin,
Rouge,
Swashbuckler,
Ranger,
Scout,
Soul knife,
Healer,
Knight,
Hex blade,


And although it's not home-brew, I've decided the OA Samurai is, as I understand it, generally a reasonably good martial class and that I'll just use that, unless I find out in this threat that it still leaves a great deal to be desired, in which case, proposing a replacement would be ok. The same goes with the Hexblade fix the creator proposed.


That all said, I'm seeking good quality, well vetted, home-brew replacements for the following classes that get them up to at least a Tier 3.

Spell Thief*,
Ninja,
Wilder,
Lurk,
Divine Mind,
Soulborn,
Dragon Shamen,
Truenamer,



My reasoning for this is that I know at least some members of this group are going to look at a class, say "oh, that sounds/looks cool/that will work!" based on what the book or books say. So, rather then have that happened and have them be disappointed when it does not actually work as intended, I figured I'd open with "Ok, the following is a list of classes that, if you decide to use them, I will be pointing you to a mark 2 version of that I will provide. Thank you. "

So, anyone have recommendations?

[Pyromancer999]

If I may make recommendations in general, Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendiums, both theold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245701-Morph-Bark-s-Homebrew-Tier-Compendium) and new (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391953-Morph-Bark-s-NEW-AND-IMPROVED-Homebrew-Tier-Compendium-3-5-PF) ones, have plenty of homebrew classes that could serve your needs.

As for specific classes:

The Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?199905-3-5-Indigo-Trickster-(PEACH)) could be a nice magic rogue-type replacement for a spellthief.

Also, Kellus's Truenaming fix, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) complete with classes and prestige classes, is simply marvelous.

In general, the Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234951-Trissociate-3-5-Base-Class-(PEACH)) is a very good class for a choose-your-own character by combining different associations, and does include recommended associations for homebrew fixes for some of the classes you are looking for a replacement for, including Spellthief and Dragon Shaman.

[Dromuthra]

Well, I've always been partial to Grod's Paladin Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-(PEACH)). Probably moves Paladins to high Tier 3.

[Metahuman1]

I think I have the Paladin covered, but thanks, that's certainly an interesting Smite Mechanic. Might just borrow that.


As for Morphbarks list, ok, I've PM'ed the lists proprietor, asking if maybe they have a tag listing for "Replaces X.". In the mean time, I'm still open to suggestions for replacements for the specific listed classes.

[LudicSavant]

My favorite paladin fix is "play a melee Cleric build." There are even like 6 different prestige classes for the Cleric which can be summed up as "better Paladin."

Clericadins can...
- Detect Evil at Will
- Summon intelligent holy mounts
- Beat up things in melee with the best of 'em
- Smite Evil (both the actual smite evil ability as well as more dramatic options, such as going nova with a nuclear impact smite melee attack and being useless afterwards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujC7rxFVZ18))
- Follow a code or fall.
- Lay on Hands.
- Can make paladins of a wide variety of codes (such as 5e style codes, or alternate alignment paladins, or anything else you want).

[Metahuman1]

Ok. But I had Paladin covered before the OP. That's one of the classes I listed having a sub for. The classes I need subs/replacments for are

Spell Thief,
Ninja,
Wilder,
Lurk,
Divine Mind,
Soulborn,
Dragon Shamen,
Truenamer.

Do you have a suggestion on any of these? Ideally one that's as close in general feel to the original as possible, just better at it enough to get up to or above Tier 3?

[LudicSavant]

I know these aren't homebrew, but they're still widely regarded as fixes for the listed classes:


Ninja
Swordsage.


Barbarian,
Fighter, Warblade.

Monk, Unarmed Swordsage or Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona)



Hex blade,
Various gish builds.
Duskblade.


Wilder

Wilder's already tier 3+, dunno what you wanna fix.

[Metahuman1]

Um, alright, while I certainly appreciate trying to steer them toward other classes, if I could just simply tell them "You want a Paladin? Here's a Cleric with Divine Metamagic Persist Spell and Spontaneous Domain Casting. Dip 1 level of Crusader and retrain the reduant proficiency's into Mounted Combat feats and extra hit's of Extra Turning and take power attack." or "You want a ninja, Swordsage, focus mainly on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind, season with other maneuver's to taste but one stance none withstanding I'd suggest steering clear of Dessert Wind. "


But I'm trying to be considerate of players who may not want to go that route, and to have an option other then "Try to juggle this badly written class that gimps them on purpose cause some creator wanted it to have to scrape at the Wizards feet all the time.".




As for Wilder, I was under the impression they are a Tier 4 Class cause they've got several class features with a propensity to shoot themselves and there party in the foot. Is that not correct?

[Zaydos]

I've always heard that Wilders were Tier 3, because they are Tier 2 except that they don't have the number of powers known to be tier 2. That said there's the Mind's Eye article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) with educated wilder (replace a pretty much useless class feature with Expanded Knowledge 4 times). Their main feature does have a chance to backfire (5 to 30%); it's gain +1 to +6 ML for one power (and 1 to 6 free PP), with a 5% x ML boost chance of dazing yourself for 1 round and losing your class level in PP. So it's a type of gambling.

But from what I've heard Wilder is still comfortably Tier 3, especially with Educated Wilder. I mean if you were trying to fix it to 'equal in power with psion' you'd probably want to do more like an extra power known at each odd level to get them to 21 (compared to psion's 36); or let them be mantled and instead of 'you must learn these asap' make it 'you get these for free'. If you want to remove the 'shoot yourself in the foot' aspect make it not daze you, it's still a gamble, but it statistically breaks out even with the advantage of having the thing you need boosted, boosted, and just having a 1 in 20 per free PP of losing you PP (which actually means as long as you don't take Wilder 20 you're ahead in PP). I'd probably not do both. But this isn't well vetted (I don't think I've seen any 'fix' for Wilders besides Educated Wilder).

Edit: It also occurs to me that Wilder is particularly problematic for new players since it's Psion with 1/3rd the powers known, which means, exempting greater psionic tattoos (or whatever that mind's eye thing for them was) of psychic reformation to reselect your powers known once plus a day (which is supposed to make them better than psions), they can be screwed over by inexperienced spell choice, so that's something to watch out for.

[Metahuman1]

Interesting. I think I'll take the idea of removing the Daze. Might steer them toward an Incarnum Recharge or something to make sure they can't 100% hose themselves on lost PP. Make some suggestions for good power choices and keep retraining rules open so they can experiment and fix a mistake in a reasonable period of time as needed.




Thank you. That actually eliminates the need for Wilder fix.


So, that leaves,


Spell Thief,
Ninja,
Lurk,
Divine Mind,
Soulborn,
Dragon Shamen,
Truenamer.


Having given it a once over, that Truenamer class fix that got suggested looks interesting, but I think those skill check DC's are stacked a bit high for something that you can do basically nothing except gain levels to improve and has that roll d20 with chances of auto failure built in mechanic to make it harder.

[Heliomance]

Having given it a once over, that Truenamer class fix that got suggested looks interesting, but I think those skill check DC's are stacked a bit high for something that you can do basically nothing except gain levels to improve and has that roll d20 with chances of auto failure built in mechanic to make it harder.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217713-A-Book-of-Words-An-Expanded-Truenamer-Fix-PEACH) is the other well-regarded Truenamer fix from the Homebrew boards. I've GMed a ame with one of those in, and it seemed pretty balanced.

[Fizban]

Those are some seriously specific classes to replace, while there are probably remakes of at least a few of them out there I wouldn't bet on them surfacing so easily unless one of the creators sees the thread. Generally whenever I hear about the Spellthief or Lurk it's from someone who already uses them as is, no one cares about Divine Mind, and only a few more wish they had a functional Soulborn when they can just do the job themselves with a multiclass build.

Searching my bookmarks, I have one entry you might find useful: The Holie Man Armipotent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223595-3-5-The-Holie-Man-Armiptent-Paladin-Hexblade-Sohei-Soulborn-Divine-Mind-etc), which has Paladin, Hexblade, Sohei, Soulborn, and Divine Mind. That doesn't mean I'm vouching for it, I can tell at a glance there's things I disagree with, but I don't know what other stuff you're already planning on using and it does have the two rarest classes you're looking for so maybe it'll be useful.

Ninja: personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, the Ninja works just fine as long as you don't expect it to be a flanking sneak attacker. If Sudden Strike is so bad then just upgrade it to Sneak Attack and stop complaining. But then you're replacing Rogue too, so. . .

Dragon Shaman: I've never seen a fix that I liked, but I do have this Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99253-3-5-Dragon-Warrior) from Person_Man, a class that actually gives you dragon abilities and makes you into a dragon instead of pretending it's some sort of non-spellcasting 3/4 BAB Paladin.

Also, the fact that you're just taking OA Samurai as is without understanding it does not bode well. The OA Samurai is effectively a Fighter with fewer and more restricted feats in exchange for some extra skills. In terms of raw power it's not any better than a Fighter with Iajutsu Focus as a class skill, which is not much. If you're replacing every Fighter-esque class with homebrew in order to ban basic Fighter, OA Samurai is pretty much basic Fighter and I'll guarantee that your pile of homebrews is going to outclass it by miles.

[ngilop]

Healer: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272245-Healer-Re-tooled-please-critique) or TG Oskar's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-(Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated!)) TG's generally gets the majrotiy of the attention due to being years older

Samurai: Mine
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?278499-Samurai-Re-tool-please-critique)

Ninja: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?277587-Ninja-Re-tool-Please-Critque)

Monk: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266100-Quick-and-Dirty-Monk-Fix-please-Critique)

Hexblade: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?283621-Hexblade-re-tool-Please-Critique)

Warlock: MammonAzrael (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226021-The-Warlock-a-massive-rewrite-3-5-Base-Class-WIP) IMO the best piece of homebrew in this entire site.

Dragon Shaman: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330720-Dragon-Shaman-Please-Critque)

Knight: Mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472971-Knight-Re-tool-PLease-Critique)

[Metahuman1]

Heliomance: I'm looking through it, there's a lot of ground to cover so I'll let you know. Thanks. =)


Fizban: Ok, those actually look useful. Thanks.



ngilop: Alright, Im looking the healers over, but I do think it will be one or the other, so, thanks. And I'll likely take TG's Warmage to boot.

I like the Samurai and I think I'll be putting that one out for that role.

I'm of mixed thoughts on the Ninja and the Hexblade, I'll have to get back to you on those.

Didn't need the Monk or the Knight, kinda already had them covered. And I think I'm leaning toward that dragon warrior for the Dragon Shamen's role.

The warlock, I'm not sure on, having trouble reading the formatting. Thanks! =)

[Extra Anchovies]

MammonAzrael's Warlock looks nice, but... I can't find the class table. Thus, the slightly-altered invocation progression (mentioned in the "Invocations" design notes) is apparently unknowable. :smallconfused:

[Jormengand]

Truenamer.

Do you have a suggestion on any of these? Ideally one that's as close in general feel to the original as possible, just better at it enough to get up to or above Tier 3?

As far as I know, my truenamer fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397500-The-Worldspeaker-revisited-Truenamer-PEACH) is the only one that actually keeps the original truespeak and utterance mechanics while making the truenamer strong enough to play. The other two well-known ones don't, one substituting a horrid power word mechanic and the other keeping the decent utterances at excessive levels.

[Zaydos]

MammonAzrael's Warlock looks nice, but... I can't find the class table. Thus, the slightly-altered invocation progression (mentioned in the "Invocations" design notes) is apparently unknowable. :smallconfused:

Something did funny when they updated table code would have been my guess. The way to check for that is to quote the post. In this case you will find the table code, but it's the old table code and therefore doesn't show up in posts. So you convert it to current table code and it looks like


Level
Base Attack[br]Bonus
Fortitude[br]Save
Reflex[br]Save
Will[br]SaveSpecial
Invocations[br]Known
Shapes and[br]Essences
1st+0
+1
+0
+2Eldritch blast 1d6, invocations (least)
1
0
2nd+1
+1
+0
+3Heritage (1st ability)
2
0
3rd+2
+2
+1
+3Detect magic, eldritch blast 2d6
2
1
4th+3
+2
+1
+4Heritage (2nd ability)
3
1
5th+3
+3
+1
+4Deceive item, eldritch blast 3d6
3
2
6th+4
+3
+2
+5Heritage (3rd ability), invocations (lesser)
4
2
7th+5
+3
+2
+5Eldritch blast 4d6
5
2
8th+6/+1
+4
+2
+6Heritage (4th ability), identify item
5
3
9th+6/+1
+4
+3
+6Eldritch blast 5d6, eldritch volley
6
3
10th+7/+2
+5
+3
+7Arcane sight, heritage (5th ability)
6
4
11th+8/+3
+5
+3
+7Eldritch blast 6d6, invocations (greater)
7
4
12th+9/+4
+6
+4
+8Heritage (6th ability)
8
4
13th+9/+4
+6
+4
+8Eldritch blast 7d6, eldritch soul
8
5
14th+10/+5
+6
+4
+9Heritage (7th ability)
9
5
15th+11/+6/+1
+7
+5
+9Eldritch blast 8d6, greater arcane sight
9
6
16th+12/+7/+2
+7
+5
+10Heritage (8th ability), invocations (ancestry)
10
6
17th+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+10Eldritch blast 9d6
11
6
18th+13/+8/+3
+8
+6
+11Eldritch volley, heritage (9th ability)
11
7
19th+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+11Eldritch blast 10d6
12
7
20th+15/+10/+5
+9
+6
+12Heritage (10th ability), renew item
12
8


That said I think the change is the not to uncommonly mentioned 'give them an eldritch essence/blast shape' whenever they normally wouldn't get an invocation.